England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

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England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Recwatcher16 on Sun 12 Feb 2017, 10:35 pm

Looks like Mako Vunipola will be available for the Italy game, with George, Sinkler, Haskell and Teo all starting. Billy Vunipola on schedule for the Irish game, although I will believe that when I see it, given his injury. Watson will also now be ready for Italian game and- is this the game for Brown to be 'rested' ?

I can see Clifford, Haskell & Hughes being a more balanced back row with Itoje moving forward, although how EJ would choose between Launchbury & Lawes is anyone's guess. Looking further forward and slightly left field, a Hughes, Haskell and Vunipola combo for the Irish game ?

I like the look of Teo whose running lines look top notch and if Hartley is benched clearly Farrell will be at ten with the armband, with Ford perhaps as the impact FH when bodies start to tire.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/02/12/billy-mako-vunipola-set-give-england-six-nations-grand-slam/

Ps. The internet link above is not the full title of the article, before anyone jumps on it.......

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by robbo277 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 1:25 am

I'd be wary about splitting Launchbury and Lawes. Both played so well against Wales (even though I was advocating dropping Launchbury for the balance of our pack), so the question isn't know about what is Itoje's best position, it's about whether Itoje is our best option at 6, or the current option of playing all three is the best option, because if you were to lose one of those for Haskell, it would be Itoje dropping to the bench on form, talented though he is.

My changes for Italy would be George, Haskell, Te'o and May in for Hartley, Clifford, Ford and Brown, with a bit of reshuffling in the backs. Sinckler in for Cole is an interesting one and one I wouldn't be averse to, given his impressive cameo against Wales.

From players returning from injury, I'd potentially bring Mako in for Mullan - as with Hartley and possibly Cole on the bench, you'd possibly want a ball carrying front row finishing the game, and Mako offers this.

I'd probably hold of on Kruis or Watson even if made available, because I think the incumbents are doing just fine at the minute. If I'm struggling to find room in my 15 for Itoje, then Kruis isn't going to go much better, although he could come in for Wood on the bench. And if I'm not starting Brown, I would want him on the bench in case it all went wrong, so he could come on and steady the ship.

Looking further ahead to the Ireland game, it will very much depend on how his re-jigged back row with Haskell in goes against Italy and Scotland. But it would be great to have Billy back for the Ireland game, and he could definitely be an option at least on the bench. For example, a back row of Itoje, Haskell and Hughes with Clifford and Vunipola on the bench would definitely be able to deliver impact over 80 minutes, even against a very good Irish unit.

Having these players back is only going to strengthen us, but I would be wary of just dumping on the players who have got us two wins from two tough games.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by king_carlos on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 5:14 am

Itoje actually played the entire game in the second row with Launchbury. Lawes was packing down at flanker from the first scrum. The naming of Itoje at 6 must have just been Jones playing the media.

I thought Lawes was one of our best players against Ireland but I'd rather he benched to accommodate Haskell starting. Starting Itoje and Launchbury again without Lawes is a good test of whether Itoje is ready to call the line-out, especially if Sarries teammate George is starting at hooker.

Clifford had a slightly anonymous game. Other than committing to a few rucks that were already lost I can't think of anything to criticise him for. I can't think of much to praise either. I'd start him again against Italy in what will hopefully be a more open game for him to use his pace a bit.

If there are changes in the outside backs I'd prefer them at centre than full back. Farrell and Joseph are the back bone of the sides defensive organisation, if either were injured I'd worry. Te'o and Daly in the centre with Farrell at 10 is a good way to give different centres some experience whilst keeping a defensive leader in the backline.

1.Marler 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Launchbury 5.Itoje 6.Clifford 7.Haskell 8.Hughes
9.Care 10.Farrell 11.Nowell 12.Te'o 13.Daly 14.Watson 15.Brown

16.Hartley 17.Mako 18.Cole 19.Lawes 20.Wood 21.Youngs 22.Ford 23.Joseph

That'd be an interesting mix of experience and experiment.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Gwlad on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 6:56 am

As an onlooker i'd say Brown's days are numbered, he is slowly getting less impactful every game and his characteristic first tackle break out just isn't as dynamic as it was, England's wings should be Watson and Nowell with May as back up and Daly as 15. And what of Yarde, Roko etc ?
Also think the captaincy has to come under scrutiny post 6 Nations because George is abetter hooker.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 8:15 am

king_carlos wrote:

1.Marler 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Launchbury 5.Itoje 6.Clifford 7.Haskell 8.Hughes
9.Care 10.Farrell 11.Nowell 12.Te'o 13.Daly 14.Watson 15.Brown

16.Hartley 17.Mako 18.Cole 19.Lawes 20.Wood 21.Youngs 22.Ford 23.Joseph


Including positional, I think that would be 10 changes. I struggle to see Jones making quite so many.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by hugehandoff on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:55 am

For me this is less about experimenting for experimenting sake (i.e. just to learn about a few more squad members) and more about giving game time for the team that will play Scotland. If new combinations are preferred for the Scotland match then they must be selected for Italy.

If he wants an alternative to Brown, which I think is worth a go, then let's put either Daly or Watson there.
I think it worth trying Farrell at 10 with Te'o at 12. Ford onto the bench.
Hartley is the captain and has underperformed due to a lack of match practice so he should retain his place, but be released to play for Saints this weekend.
Haskell to start at 7 and be released to play for Wasps this weekend.
Mako to play for Saracens this weekend and replace Mullan on the bench.
If Kruis plays for Saracens this weekend then he can also join the bench. Itoje back to 2nd row with Launchbury with possibly Lawes missing out, which would be very harsh. I would start Wood at 6, Hughes, 8 and Hask at 7.
Watson to replace May as better all-round, especially for Dublin and potential high balls.


So for Italy and Scotalnd for me it should be:

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Launchbury
Itoje
Wood
Hughes
Haskell
Youngs
Farrell
Watson
Te'o
JJ
Nowell
Daly

Subs
Mako
George
Sinckler
Kruis
Clifford
Care
Ford
Brown

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Scottrf on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 9:59 am

I wouldn't select Itoje over Lawes. Courtney's impact in the Wales game was huge.
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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:09 am

Scottrf wrote:I wouldn't select Itoje over Lawes. Courtney's impact in the Wales game was huge.

It seems that no matter how well Lawes plays that he's always the second row that people want to jettison. Kruis is a top player but needs to play himself back into contention first, it's not like we're crying out for him like we are Billy, Robshaw or Haskell.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:13 am

One change I would like to see is Robson given a chance to start.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:28 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:One change I would like to see is Robson given a chance to start.

Unlikely to happen though. There is nothing to stop Jones calling up someone not in his 6Ns squad - but that Robson was not in it does seem to suggest he is unlikely to feature except for injury.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:32 am

I know but we do need to look at someone else there. Youngs for me is meh.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 11:58 am

Kruis has had knee surgery & is out until mid April at the earliest

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by cascough on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:04 pm

king_carlos wrote:Itoje actually played the entire game in the second row with Launchbury. Lawes was packing down at flanker from the first scrum. The naming of Itoje at 6 must have just been Jones playing the media.

I thought Lawes was one of our best players against Ireland but I'd rather he benched to accommodate Haskell starting. Starting Itoje and Launchbury again without Lawes is a good test of whether Itoje is ready to call the line-out, especially if Sarries teammate George is starting at hooker.

Clifford had a slightly anonymous game. Other than committing to a few rucks that were already lost I can't think of anything to criticise him for. I can't think of much to praise either. I'd start him again against Italy in what will hopefully be a more open game for him to use his pace a bit.

If there are changes in the outside backs I'd prefer them at centre than full back. Farrell and Joseph are the back bone of the sides defensive organisation, if either were injured I'd worry. Te'o and Daly in the centre with Farrell at 10 is a good way to give different centres some experience whilst keeping a defensive leader in the backline.

1.Marler 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Launchbury 5.Itoje 6.Clifford 7.Haskell 8.Hughes
9.Care 10.Farrell 11.Nowell 12.Te'o 13.Daly 14.Watson 15.Brown

16.Hartley 17.Mako 18.Cole 19.Lawes 20.Wood 21.Youngs 22.Ford 23.Joseph

That'd be an interesting mix of experience and experiment.

Someone commented on this on the matchday thread, I thought it was pretty interesting.

Lawes only switched to packing down at the blindside after Launchbury hurt his chest. Launch then packed down behind the LH. Apparently Lawes didn't move across as he has a shoulder problem (and often packs down behind the LH for Northampton) hence why Itoje moved across to behind the TH. As for general play it still seemed like Itoje was hanging out a little wider and dropping a little deeper to me. I'd say it looked like he was still doing his back row role.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Scottrf on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 12:10 pm

So the selection choices.

1. Marler has played well but we have been missing carrying so Mako should probably come in if he does okay for Sarries this weekend.
2. George certainly playing the better but seems a hard decision to drop the captain and George probably has the better impact late on.
3. Can't see him changing from Cole in the big games.
Lock/6. Would probably stick with it for now, or maybe bring Wood in for Itoje.
7. Haskell. Clifford has looked ineffective and need to protect the ball better.
8. Not much choice unfortunately as Hughes' impact has been limited.
9. Difficult one because we're in a position where we haven't given ourselves options. Would probably start Care.
10/Centre. Ford/Farrell/Joseph will probably remain. Teo may get a chance against Italy to see if he can have the same impact vs fresh legs.
Wings. Think should stick with Nowell/Daly. Or Ford/Farrell/Daly with Nowell +1 on the wing.
15. Can see him experimenting for Italy with Watson but expect Brown to be trusted for Scotland/Ireland.
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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by robbo277 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 1:02 pm

king_carlos wrote:Itoje actually played the entire game in the second row with Launchbury. Lawes was packing down at flanker from the first scrum. The naming of Itoje at 6 must have just been Jones playing the media.

I noticed them packing down the wrong way, but didn't know if it was an onfield change or it had always been like that.

If you stick with all 3 across the 4-6 shirts, then they can line-up however they want. If you wish to change, I agree with later commenters that it should be Itoje to miss out, although he will offer great impact from the bench.

On the above point, would anyone be surprised to see Jones name Watson at 15 and then put Daly at 15 and Watson on the wing? Or vica versa?

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 1:03 pm

cascough wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Itoje actually played the entire game in the second row with Launchbury. Lawes was packing down at flanker from the first scrum. The naming of Itoje at 6 must have just been Jones playing the media.

Someone commented on this on the matchday thread, I thought it was pretty interesting.

Lawes only switched to packing down at the blindside after Launchbury hurt his chest. Launch then packed down behind the LH. Apparently Lawes didn't move across as he has a shoulder problem (and often packs down behind the LH for Northampton) hence why Itoje moved across to behind the TH. As for general play it still seemed like Itoje was hanging out a little wider and dropping a little deeper to me. I'd say it looked like he was still doing his back row role.

As far as I can tell the first scrum came on 23 minutes (after Daly's knock on from the kick off following 1/2p's second penalty). At that Lawes did indeed pack down at 6 and Itoje behind Cole and to the right of Launchbery in the second row. Thus at scrums Lawes was always at 6 it seems.

However, what makes it interesting is that against France LAwes was on the LH side and Launchbery on the TH, so who knows if it was pre-planned or the result of a knock.


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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by nathan on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 2:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I know but we do need to look at someone else there. Youngs for me is meh.

Doesn't matter who we choose at 9 if our forwards aren't providing quick ball

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 2:36 pm

Passes would be better though.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by nathan on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 2:38 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Passes would be better though.

True, I did notice Ford was throwing a few head high passes at the weekend

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 2:39 pm

Talking about Youngs.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by nathan on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 2:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Talking about Youngs.

Very well aware of that, hence why I said true. I was pointing out that Ford made a few head high throws too. It must be catching on.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 2:48 pm

Ok.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 3:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Passes would be better though.

I am not sure they would be all that much better - and right now whoever came in would probably be significantly slower in getting to the breakdowns - which is where the current pair have improved out of sight.


Interestingly Robert Jones (ex Wales and Lions 9 for any too young to remember Wink) was waxing lyrical about Youngs all through the first half, and wishing Webb could be a bit more like him!!!!! (on Radio as I was in car travelling home from Tigers game)

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 3:17 pm

Would just like to see Robson get the chance. If Jones and the coaching team have improved Youngs and Care there they should Robson. At the moment Youngs has the shirt due to kicking but Robson isn't far behind there. Youngs played as he generally does, we could have better with Robson potentially.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 3:18 pm

And Youngs passing isn't at the level it should be for me.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by king_carlos on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 5:17 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
king_carlos wrote:1.Marler 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Launchbury 5.Itoje 6.Clifford 7.Haskell 8.Hughes
9.Care 10.Farrell 11.Nowell 12.Te'o 13.Daly 14.Watson 15.Brown

16.Hartley 17.Mako 18.Cole 19.Lawes 20.Wood 21.Youngs 22.Ford 23.Joseph

Including positional, I think that would be 10 changes. I struggle to see Jones making quite so many.
Probably yes. Being pedantic Itoje played lock anyway. Clifford moving to 6 wouldn't change how'd he'd be asked to play. Nowell is also stronger on left wing that right IMO, although that's marginal with Nowell given his basics are so strong.

If Te'o starts then I can't see another change in the centre. Unlike many I thought JJ played well against Wales so in no way do I want him dropped. He didn't get much ball to do anything with but made yards against a very physical defence. His miss pass to Daly allowed the go forward to set the ruck which Youngs scored from. His defensive organisation was excellent as usual.

We need someone else able to organise the defence from 13 though. Farrell is more noticeable with his hits but Joseph often leads the blitz and calls the drift. His pace is what makes him an excellent defensive outside centre because he can hold the drift very late to give his inside man time to cover his inside shoulder. Then he uses his pace to go late and cover the outside arc.

Daly has the pace to do the same but I'd rather see against Italy with JJ on the bench than against Ireland after an untimely injury.

If Watson is in the 23 I hope he starts. If he's on the bench to get game time and 'find match fitness' then he's better off doing that starting for Bath. He's our best back three player so if the physios, coaches and Watson agree he's ready then start him. If he isn't ready get him in the Prem.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 6:35 pm

Just to point out that Itoje packed down at lock but was playing on the flank in open play.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by mid_gen on Mon 13 Feb 2017, 7:56 pm

JJ doesn't get enough credit for his defensive work. He's very good at positining himself to cut out the wide pass by threatening to intercept, without getting caught by the inside runner stepping in. Partly helped by being able to trust Farrell on his inside.

The more this team plays the less I think the midfield needs to change. Ford Farrell JJ with Teo coming off the bench....hard to find fault with that over the 80 minutes.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 8:14 am

England head coach Eddie Jones has retained 25 players for a training week ahead of their third RBS 6 Nations game against Italy on 26 February.

The squad assembled at the Royal Garden Hotel, Kensington on Monday for a training week lasting until Friday 17 February.

England have won both of their matches in the 2017 RBS 6 Nations, beating France and Wales.

The training squad includes Northampton Saints prop Paul Hill and Bath wing Anthony Watson.

Forwards (14)

Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Paul Hill (Northampton Saints), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins) , Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints).

Backs (11)

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).


Interesting that Genge stays ahead of Mullan and that Hill comes in. No Mako just means he is with Sarries (any players in this training group are effectively unable to play this weekend).

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Scottrf on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 8:49 am

So not released Hartley for game time at Saints.
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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:12 am

Scottrf wrote:So not released Hartley for game time at Saints.

Seems not.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Scottrf on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:20 am

Probably thought it would be embarrassing for the England captain to be warming the bench.
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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:22 am

Scottrf wrote:Probably thought it would be embarrassing for the England captain to be warming the bench.

Oh we are talking about Farrell, thought we were on about Hartley Run

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by TightHEAD on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 9:23 am

Minimal changes are a must vs Italy, I want to see a cricket score racked up against them, we are going to need all the tries we can get.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 10:19 am

Scottrf wrote:Probably thought it would be embarrassing for the England captain to be warming the bench.

You could argue it's embaressing that he isn't.

I'm really town on the Hartley issue. George does look the better player at the moment. But...
...his leadership is important, and Jones has highlighted the lack of similar characteristics from other players in the squad.
....making the change and swrapping the captaincy is a semi permanent deal. Are we sure George is really the better player or its just Hartley is a little flat right now? You could look at guys like Joseph and Itoje in the same way....bench then off the back of a couple of quiet games?

It's not clear cut, unless you're beshocked. But it's surely on the table.

Same goes for Ford and Farrell and getting Teo a start.
Brown for Watson ( Daly not impossible as fullback) same again. Watson though I see returning to the bench rather than starting 15. Mays the one to lose out.

You could see a radically different England. Which really shows the depth of options they have now

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by robbo277 on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 10:51 am

Gooseberry wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Probably thought it would be embarrassing for the England captain to be warming the bench.

You could argue it's embaressing that he isn't.  

I'm really town on the Hartley issue. George does look the better player at the moment. But...
...his leadership is important, and Jones has highlighted the lack of similar characteristics from other players in the squad.  
....making the change and swrapping the captaincy is a semi permanent deal. Are we sure George is really the better player or its just Hartley is a little flat right now? You could look at guys like Joseph and Itoje in the same way....bench then off the back of a couple of quiet games?

It's not clear cut, unless you're beshocked.  But it's surely on the table.  

Same goes for Ford and Farrell and getting Teo a start.
Brown for Watson  ( Daly not impossible as fullback) same again. Watson though I see returning to the bench rather than starting 15. Mays the one to lose out.  

You could see a radically different England. Which really shows the depth of options they have now

I think this Italy game is a bit of a free hit in that respect. I'm not suggesting Jones go left-field and call up a players nowhere near the squad at current (e.g. Flatman on Twitter suggested Zach Mercer for the 23), but starting George and Te'o and trying another option at 15 isn't necessarily a big deal, because if any of them don't come off, we can just switch them back during the game and reverse the change for the Scotland game. But if gives us a good "first look" at how some of these guys will do starting.

Our less established players are less likely to go on the Lions so there real chance will be in Argentina this summer. However, if we can give them a run against Italy, we can hopefully answer a few of the questions about whether these guys can do a job for the last two games, because there's still a tournament to be won here.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by majesticimperialman on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:17 am

I really can not see Eddie Jones making too many changes for Italy. He wants consisstancy in the team.

He may bring May and Nowell on to the wings, Care on for Youngs. and that is it.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by beshocked on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:22 am

Hartley's leadership wasn't deemed important enough for the crucial moments of the Wales game.

Jones made the decision to take off Hartley early and it worked.

It's not as if England struggled for leadership with him off the field.

George hasn't just outplayed Hartley for a game or two, he's been the superior hooker at club level for two seasons and has IMO been superior at international level too, he even won the exchange when Hartley tried to wind up George and got himself banned for his stupidity.

Italy is the perfect opportunity to start George. His patience should at last be rewarded.

Yes George is the better player. It must be hard being kept out of the team when you are clearly playing better than the person in front of you.

I find it funny how many people struggle to spell consistency.....

So majesticimperial you want to stick with the consistently sub par performances from Hartley? Fair enough I guess.

Also why would he drop Daly who has actually looked pretty good on the wing?


Last edited by beshocked on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by BamBam on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 11:25 am

I'd definitely start George against Italy, and bring on Hartley at around 55 mins .. he needs the game time too, and I would have sent him back to Saints this week to get a run

George is clearly taking over, its just when Jones thinks we've got an alternative captain (I'm not keen on giving it to Farrell for all his qualities)

This seems similar to the John Smit/Bismarck situation South Africa had, unfortunately Hartley can't slide over to tighthead to accomodate!

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 2:28 pm

beshocked wrote:Hartley's leadership wasn't deemed important enough for the crucial moments of the Wales game
From the sound of it, most of Hartley's value as a leader is off the pitch. He sets the right tone; gets players set up for the training sessions, and makes sure everyone is focused on the task ahead. That's probably the reason he has been kept with the squad rather than returned to Saints for more game time.

As long as Jones believes that's important, then I can seem him persisting with Hartley, while also being willing to substitute him early. As far as I know, if the replacement hooker subsequently becomes injured, than Hartley is allowed to return, so there's no risk of drawing from the reserve bench too early.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by mid_gen on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 3:26 pm

EJ doesn't have a 1st XV, he has a first 23. Players are picked for specific roles in the 23. Hartley is the leader, the solid scrummager and tackler. George is the fast explosive carrier with good hands to attack tiring defences.

England's game is all about maintaining and upping intensity in the last quarter. I don't think it's a slight to George at all that he's picked in this role.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 3:42 pm

I get the impression that our scrum always improves when George comes on. Of course I could be comparing a rapidly tiring Hartley to a fresh George.
I'm biased but I would like to see George starting and Tommy Taylor on the bench post 6Ns

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by king_carlos on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 4:13 pm

It's a very frequent occurrence with Sarries and England. When George comes on from the bench for England or Sarries there is usually a significant change in the power of his sides scrum. The same in reverse when he is subbed off for Sarries, their scrum will often suffer.

Eddie Jones comments about Itoje scrummaging at second row were interesting. It was basically a very blunt, he's a better scrummager than the other two. According to Jones, Kruis is the best scrummaging lock England have. After Kruis it would then be Itoje.

The importance of locks to their packs scrummaging is frequently ignored. Simon Shaw was a great example of what a scrummaging lock could add, especially when he came on from the bench and suddenly his tight head looked a whole lot more dominant.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by robbo277 on Tue 14 Feb 2017, 5:12 pm

king_carlos wrote:It's a very frequent occurrence with Sarries and England. When George comes on from the bench for England or Sarries there is usually a significant change in the power of his sides scrum. The same in reverse when he is subbed off for Sarries, their scrum will often suffer.

Eddie Jones comments about Itoje scrummaging at second row were interesting. It was basically a very blunt, he's a better scrummager than the other two. According to Jones, Kruis is the best scrummaging lock England have. After Kruis it would then be Itoje.

The importance of locks to their packs scrummaging is frequently ignored. Simon Shaw was a great example of what a scrummaging lock could add, especially when he came on from the bench and suddenly his tight head looked a whole lot more dominant.

As a 15st former prop in the amateur leagues (play back row now), I can attest to the value of scrummaging second rows! Turns out they're not just tall thin blokes to throw up in the line-out. Whistle

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by beshocked on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 10:33 am

king_carlos wrote:It's a very frequent occurrence with Sarries and England. When George comes on from the bench for England or Sarries there is usually a significant change in the power of his sides scrum. The same in reverse when he is subbed off for Sarries, their scrum will often suffer.

Eddie Jones comments about Itoje scrummaging at second row were interesting. It was basically a very blunt, he's a better scrummager than the other two. According to Jones, Kruis is the best scrummaging lock England have. After Kruis it would then be Itoje.

The importance of locks to their packs scrummaging is frequently ignored. Simon Shaw was a great example of what a scrummaging lock could add, especially when he came on from the bench and suddenly his tight head looked a whole lot more dominant.

Good comment.

Interesting it's something that's not really considered enough. Obviously I've watched Saracens a lot and since Borthwick retired, George has become first choice hooker, the Saracens scrum has been in general much more solid than it was with Brits and Borthwick first choice in their respective positions.

It has allowed Saracens to play Mako who though not the best scrummager offers so much outside it, especially in the carrying department.

I remember 5 years ago when Saracens was getting outmuscled by Clermont, 5 years later Saracens has the power to match and beat French sides.



Packs are always about balance.

It's obvious that England have missed the carrying power of the Vunipola bros.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by pbuk0 on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 11:42 am

Team I would like to see start against Italy

1.Marler 2.George 3.Sinckler
4.Launchbury 5.Itoje
6. Haskell 7.Clifford 8.Hughes
9.Care 10.Farrell
11.Nowell 12.Te'o 13. Joseph 14.Watson 15.Daley

16.Taylor 17.Mako 18.Cole 19.Lawes 20.Wood 21.Youngs 22.Ford 23.May

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 12:53 pm

We've won games but haven't played that well really. So Eddie wont make too many changes as he'll want them to regain the form that beat Australia 3-0 and the AI's....

Maybe 1/2/3 changes v Italy next week...but not wholesale...
Despite my criticism I would start Clifford but he needs a MASSIVE performance against Italy. Against a weaker opposition I would expect to see his running and pace game come in to play as we saw nothing against Wales.

I would start Haskell as he needs a full game to work on his fitness.

That leaves the huge dilemma in the second rows....
Lawes v Launchbury v Itoje....


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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 2:32 pm

And further question....whats the best individuals and combo England have?
All still young!

Lawes (27)
Laucnhbury (25)
Itoje (22)
Kruis (26)
Attwood (29 - probably less likely)
Ewells (21) Seems to be in and about the squad...
Sean Robinson Whistle

Who else will come in to contention??

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Mr Bounce on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 5:10 pm

I can see there being one or two changes for the Italy game. I think Eddie will be certain to start Danny Care and to probably try out Daly at 15 with Watson on the wing (or vice versa). He might give a start to Sinkler and possibly Haskell, but I don't think he'll make too many changes.

Either way, if it all clicks, we could be looking at a cricket score...

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by DaveM on Thu 16 Feb 2017, 12:02 am

I think he will make a number of changes - he doesn't get many opportunities to experiement. So I think we might see:

- George at 2
- Haskell at 7
- Clifford at 8
- Farrell at 10.
- Watson at 11
- Teo at 12
- Daly at 15.

The backline still hasn't quite convinced and neither did the backrow in Cardiff, so I think a number of changes there are worthwhile. Although there are 7 changes here, 3 are only positional, and 2 are injury recalls.
-

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

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