England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

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England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Recwatcher16 on Mon 13 Feb - 9:35

First topic message reminder :

Looks like Mako Vunipola will be available for the Italy game, with George, Sinkler, Haskell and Teo all starting. Billy Vunipola on schedule for the Irish game, although I will believe that when I see it, given his injury. Watson will also now be ready for Italian game and- is this the game for Brown to be 'rested' ?

I can see Clifford, Haskell & Hughes being a more balanced back row with Itoje moving forward, although how EJ would choose between Launchbury & Lawes is anyone's guess. Looking further forward and slightly left field, a Hughes, Haskell and Vunipola combo for the Irish game ?

I like the look of Teo whose running lines look top notch and if Hartley is benched clearly Farrell will be at ten with the armband, with Ford perhaps as the impact FH when bodies start to tire.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/02/12/billy-mako-vunipola-set-give-england-six-nations-grand-slam/

Ps. The internet link above is not the full title of the article, before anyone jumps on it.......

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 16 Feb - 20:12

For the Fiji game (after SA game), Jones made five changes:

Goode for Brown at 15
Roku for Yarde at 14
JJ for Daly at 13
Daly for May at 11
Harrison for Wood at 7


Of those, 3 were immediatel;y reversed for the Argentina match. I do feel that he will make no more changes than that this time - but time will make a fool of at least some of us Very Happy

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by propdavid_london on Thu 16 Feb - 20:20

Can the England coaches please tell all the ball carriers that they are going too high into contact!
Its worked OK so far, but with Ireland being a team that loves the choke tackle its going to be a huge issue.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by lostinwales on Thu 16 Feb - 23:36

I'll just add a word of caution over George. He is a terrific player no doubt but he always seems to turn up on the wing on England attacks. Makes for more eye catching interventions but I'd love to see some numbers on ruck involvement.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by BamBam on Thu 16 Feb - 23:37

lostinwales wrote:I'll just add a word of caution over George. He is a terrific player no doubt but he always seems to turn up on the wing on England attacks. Makes for more eye catching interventions but I'd love to see some numbers on ruck involvement.

Dane Coles esque .. some might say

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by yappysnap on Thu 16 Feb - 23:38

With the new rules on contact with the head, even if accidental in contact, I think we'll see less use of the choke tackle.

This may be why a lot of our players are running upright as the coaches are assuming teams won't tackle so high now.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Scottrf on Thu 16 Feb - 23:40

lostinwales wrote:I'll just add a word of caution over George. He is a terrific player no doubt but he always seems to turn up on the wing on England attacks. Makes for more eye catching interventions but I'd love to see some numbers on ruck involvement.
Quite standard in a 2-4-2 formation.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by cascough on Thu 16 Feb - 23:43

Scottrf wrote:
lostinwales wrote:I'll just add a word of caution over George. He is a terrific player no doubt but he always seems to turn up on the wing on England attacks. Makes for more eye catching interventions but I'd love to see some numbers on ruck involvement.
Quite standard in a 2-4-2 formation.

Do England play 2-4-2?
Can't say I've noticed and I certainly haven't noticed Hartley doing the same, though perhaps they have a jog around when George comes on.

I'm personally not a fan of spreading your forwards out. It works in a fast loose game (which NZ always seem to be able to make it) but in a tight game I think you can get blown away at the breakdown.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Scottrf on Thu 16 Feb - 23:52

cascough wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
lostinwales wrote:I'll just add a word of caution over George. He is a terrific player no doubt but he always seems to turn up on the wing on England attacks. Makes for more eye catching interventions but I'd love to see some numbers on ruck involvement.
Quite standard in a 2-4-2 formation.

Do England play 2-4-2?
Can't say I've noticed and I certainly haven't noticed Hartley doing the same, though perhaps they have a jog around when George comes on.

I'm personally not a fan of spreading your forwards out. It works in a fast loose game (which NZ always seem to be able to make it) but in a tight game I think you can get blown away at the breakdown.
I'm not sure to be honest. If they do and Hartley doesn't sit on the wing it will be because he's not one of the 4 quickest forwards.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by yappysnap on Fri 17 Feb - 0:21

Hartley definitely isn't one of the quickest. Must be any of the backrow and Lawes from the starters. Whole starting pack may be a little slow tbh compared to guys like George or the vunipolas

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 17 Feb - 4:32

king_carlos wrote:It's a very frequent occurrence with Sarries and England. When George comes on from the bench for England or Sarries there is usually a significant change in the power of his sides scrum. The same in reverse when he is subbed off for Sarries, their scrum will often suffer.

Eddie Jones comments about Itoje scrummaging at second row were interesting. It was basically a very blunt, he's a better scrummager than the other two. According to Jones, Kruis is the best scrummaging lock England have. After Kruis it would then be Itoje.

The importance of locks to their packs scrummaging is frequently ignored. Simon Shaw was a great example of what a scrummaging lock could add, especially when he came on from the bench and suddenly his tight head looked a whole lot more dominant.

The thing is, you have twice as many lineouts as scrums and you frequently get better ball . The scrum is important, but the lineout is more so in the modern game and good lineout players also tend to be more mobile about the park covering where the better scrummagers can't get to.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Scottrf on Fri 17 Feb - 5:06

The scrum has been fine with Hartley, the lineout has been fine with Hartley. Job done. Whatever else George might offer, it's not a huge surprise that replacing a captain on such a streak isn't top of Jones' priorities. Do you risk a new captain, 10 lineouts and and 5 scrums for a flashy play or two?

I think George is the better hooker for a while but it's not quite that simple.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 17 Feb - 22:24

Scottrf wrote:The scrum has been fine with Hartley, the lineout has been fine with Hartley. Job done. Whatever else George might offer, it's not a huge surprise that replacing a captain on such a streak isn't top of Jones' priorities. Do you risk a new captain, 10 lineouts and and 5 scrums for a flashy play or two?

I think George is the better hooker for a while but it's not quite that simple.

I agree Scott. Especially if he has others like Mako, Billy V, Hughes, Haskell, Clifford to do the heavy duty carrying.

And apparently Lawes has been told he needs to be doing more effective carrying.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by cascough on Fri 17 Feb - 23:58

Scottrf wrote:The scrum has been fine with Hartley, the lineout has been fine with Hartley. Job done. Whatever else George might offer, it's not a huge surprise that replacing a captain on such a streak isn't top of Jones' priorities. Do you risk a new captain, 10 lineouts and and 5 scrums for a flashy play or two?

I think George is the better hooker for a while but it's not quite that simple.

Agreed entirely.

I think we are in a pretty nice place to be THAT solid and have Hartleys leadership to call on (not just in games, he is Jones' conduit in training too) and then have a player as good as George coming off the bench to effect games.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by robbo277 on Sat 18 Feb - 1:37

cascough wrote:
Scottrf wrote:The scrum has been fine with Hartley, the lineout has been fine with Hartley. Job done. Whatever else George might offer, it's not a huge surprise that replacing a captain on such a streak isn't top of Jones' priorities. Do you risk a new captain, 10 lineouts and and 5 scrums for a flashy play or two?

I think George is the better hooker for a while but it's not quite that simple.

Agreed entirely.

I think we are in a pretty nice place to be THAT solid and have Hartleys leadership to call on (not just in games, he is Jones' conduit in training too) and then have a player as good as George coming off the bench to effect games.

Are we overstating Hartley's importance though?

You can be a leader in training regardless of your match day role, and if Hartley isn't playing much more than a half anyway, does it matter which half?

I guess it comes down to the roles you assign to your starters and finishers. Personally, I would rather have more firepower in terms of carriers in the pack to start with and look to blow teams away early on, before switching to a low-possession, high-territory game as teams try to chase the scoreboard. So you could start with Mako, George and Sinckler to give yourself 3 big carriers, before switching to Marler, Hartley and Cole who are good in the set-piece, in the tackle and around the ruck.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by BamBam on Sat 18 Feb - 2:10

I'd go the opposite .. international defences are plenty good enough to negate even the best ball carriers early on, but in the last 20 when fatigue sets in, explosive players can really have an impact

Any set piece weakness is also likely to be more obvious under pressure from a fresh pack early on

In summary .. I'd go for a mix of the two, and it seems about right at the moment

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Gwlad on Sat 18 Feb - 2:20

There is no way England will beat Ireland in this 6 Nations, especially in Dublin. In fact i think they're going to get hammered.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Scottrf on Sat 18 Feb - 2:29

Gwlad wrote:There is no way England will beat Ireland in this 6 Nations, especially in Dublin. In fact i think they're going to get hammered.
Concern yourself with avoiding 5th place and we'll worry about the title race thumbsup

Considering your predictions performance, your comment can only be a good sign.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 18 Feb - 2:53

Gwlad wrote:There is no way England will beat Ireland in this 6 Nations, especially in Dublin. In fact i think they're going to get hammered.


Are Ireland really playing that good at the moment?

England admittedly have not started that well, but they have found away to win both games at the end.

I honestly did not think that England would beat France, the way France started the game, the amount of times they broke through our defence, i could not see them winning at all. But win they did. And against Wales in the last 5/6 minutes that just showed the resillience of the England team.

Ireland ( LOST ) to Scotland, a gamje 9i thought would never happen, but it did....Yes they beat Italy by  a cricket score, but then what did you expect.


England have had 2 tough games ( 1 ) agains France and  (1 ) against Wales. they have won them both.

England do not play Ireland untill the end of March....so i thibnk they will be ready to play in Dublin. Get hammered? I do not think so. thumbsup

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by lostinwales on Sat 18 Feb - 3:06

majesticimperialman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:There is no way England will beat Ireland in this 6 Nations, especially in Dublin. In fact i think they're going to get hammered.


Are Ireland really playing that good at the moment?

England admittedly have not started that well, but they have found away to win both games at the end.

I honestly did not think that England would beat France, the way France started the game, the amount of times they broke through our defence, i could not see them winning at all. But win they did. And against Wales in the last 5/6 minutes that just showed the resillience of the England team.

Ireland ( LOST ) to Scotland, a gamje 9i thought would never happen, but it did....Yes they beat Italy by  a cricket score, but then what did you expect.


England have had 2 tough games ( 1 ) agains France and  (1 ) against Wales. they have won them both.

England do not play Ireland untill the end of March....so i thibnk they will be ready to play in Dublin. Get hammered? I do not think so. thumbsup

Funny - Gwlad has actually been pretty 'constructive' for a while but you can tell that it might not last.

As for Ireland match yes its certainly possible that Ireland will win but they'll have to produce a special performance to do so. I know they will get a lift from playing at home but this England side does travel well.

Ireland did win 2 years ago at home but that has been the only time in what - 5/6 years?

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by beshocked on Sat 18 Feb - 4:14

lostinwales wrote:I'll just add a word of caution over George. He is a terrific player no doubt but he always seems to turn up on the wing on England attacks. Makes for more eye catching interventions but I'd love to see some numbers on ruck involvement.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2017/feb/14/eddie-jones-replacements-england

These stats show how much more involved George was than Hartley. Not just standing on the wing either.

"That is not to ignore the statistics. They tell us that while Dylan Hartley made six tackles and five carries in his 46 minutes on the pitch in Cardiff, his replacement, Jamie George surpassed him with 12 and eight."

George has been outplaying Hartley for some time but as we know Hartley is seemingly undroppable.

Starting George vs Italy makes complete sense.

Just because someone is the captain doesn't mean they should be undroppable if they are not playing well enough.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by lostinwales on Sat 18 Feb - 4:44

beshocked wrote:
lostinwales wrote:I'll just add a word of caution over George. He is a terrific player no doubt but he always seems to turn up on the wing on England attacks. Makes for more eye catching interventions but I'd love to see some numbers on ruck involvement.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2017/feb/14/eddie-jones-replacements-england

These stats show how much more involved George was than Hartley. Not just standing on the wing either.

"That is not to ignore the statistics. They tell us that while Dylan Hartley made six tackles and five carries in his 46 minutes on the pitch in Cardiff, his replacement, Jamie George surpassed him with 12 and eight."

George has been outplaying Hartley for some time but as we know Hartley is seemingly undroppable.

Starting George vs Italy makes complete sense.

Just because someone is the captain doesn't mean they should be undroppable if they are not playing well enough.

I know about the tackles and the carries, but as I was inferring that is the eye catching stuff. I was thinking more about ruck involvement - hidden stuff.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 18 Feb - 4:51

The England management will know:

1) how many rucks and mauls people hit
2) how quickly they get up off the ground (EJs most important stat apparently)
3) how far they run in the game and at what intensity

etc etc

Most of us say we believe George to be the better player - but most of us also accept there is more than that to building a team. So far Jones is doing pretty well. He has made mistakes as he himself admits, but he is developing a team with an eye towards 2019 while still winning games. It will be instructive how he and the team reacts when the winning streak is broken, but for now almost all would say he is doing a good job.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Gwlad on Sat 18 Feb - 5:04

So Hartley's demotion begins, be interesting to see who he picks as skipper. Farrell seems the obvious choice.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 18 Feb - 6:12

Gwlad wrote:So Hartley's demotion begins, be interesting to see who he picks as skipper. Farrell seems the obvious choice.

Glad to the real Gwlad back, I was beginning to wonder if someone had usurped his account.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Gwlad on Sat 18 Feb - 6:22

Oh I forgot, posting anything that isn't 100% positive about England is verboten while all over the Welsh and even Lions threads (because the Welsh won it last time), its a constant barrage of anti Welsh remarks.

Fact is, its a rather obvious question when most are picking george v italy to speculate who the skipper will be especially when what Hartley needs more than anything is game time. Any non one eyed fan knows Hartley's time is numbered because he isn't the best hooker England have, but if you'd prefer to ignore that i guess it puts you firmly in the one eyed category.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Poorfour on Sat 18 Feb - 6:37

Glad, there's a big difference between "not 100% positive" and "there is no way England will beat Ireland", which if you look closely you might realise is 0% positive.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Gwlad on Sat 18 Feb - 6:54

I'd say there is no way England will beat Ireland is 100% positive, just not in the way you want it to be. Reason for that being that this is a forum where people share views, often diametrically opposed views in fact.

I dont believe Ireland will be anywhere near as lacking in finishing skills or as naive as Wales were last weekend and i also dont believe England currently have the personnel to deal with that. Perhaps it will be closer than I imagine but in Dublin, and it being the final game, i think ireland will be in a position to win the Championship and i think they will take it.

Now, regards Captaincy. Hartley was clearly brought off against Wales because he is not performing. George made  a big difference and everyone knows he is the better player, therefore, asking who might be the next skipper, or at least the skipper v Italy when Hartley is being left out by most fans, seems a logical if not necessary question. My hunch is that because it is an unpalatable subject and Harltey's lack of form whilst skipper is becoming a problem for Eddie, that no one wants to address the issue. And certainly no one wants some Welsh bloke asking the question.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by lostinwales on Sat 18 Feb - 7:38

Gwlad wrote:Oh I forgot, posting anything that isn't 100% positive about England is verboten while all over the Welsh and even Lions threads (because the Welsh won it last time), its a constant barrage of anti Welsh remarks.

Fact is, its a rather obvious question when most are picking george v italy to speculate who the skipper will be especially when what Hartley needs more than anything is game time. Any non one eyed fan knows Hartley's time is numbered because he isn't the best hooker England have, but if you'd prefer to ignore that i guess it puts you firmly in the one eyed category.

And there was me thinking that it was the English (ok English/American) and Irish replacements what won it after two games that were much too close.

It was away from home but poor little England beat that Australian team all on its own a few weeks later.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Gwlad on Sat 18 Feb - 8:00

I'd suggest you look up who scored the points in the last lions tour, it certainly wasn't English players though there were a MINIMUM of 7 in each Test 23!

1 solitary try from Corbisiero, another by Sexton. The rest, by Welshmen.

Anyway, why won't any of you pick a new England captain now that Hartley's days are clearly numbered?

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by robbo277 on Sat 18 Feb - 8:05

It will be Farrell. He's taken over as captain when Hartley went off.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 18 Feb - 8:05

Do you belive that point scorers alone win rugby games?

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 18 Feb - 19:41

Did Mako do enough yesterday to secure a place against Italy?

While he made his usual high level of carries, and (bearing in mind the way Sarries dominated possession) his tackle count was right up there with his team-mates, I did feel that he seemed to lack a little fitness to help Sarries clear out at the breakdown quicker. It should also be noted that due to an early concussion he was scrummaging against PDJ and Haskell's mate certainly seemed to shade that encounter.

I am sure he will be in the 23, but will need to up his game against a TH who will be far more proficient than PDJ.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 18 Feb - 20:32

He played for 70 minutes, i thought he played well saying it was his first game back.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 18 Feb - 20:38

majesticimperialman wrote:He played for 70 minutes, i thought he played well saying it was his first game back.

I agree that for a first game back he did pretty well. He was however still some way below his best, and come scrum time especially so.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 19 Feb - 1:01

Just reading about the oven training season held at Twickenham yesterday. based on who liked up in white (rather than blue bibs), we may well see:

Hartley start
Haskell replace Clifford
Te'o and Day in the centre
May joining Nowell on the wing.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Poorfour on Sun 19 Feb - 1:11

I was at that session and I wouldn't read too much into it. Several players swapped bibs several times during it, so I am not sure you can read much into who was wearing what.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 19 Feb - 1:32

Poorfour wrote:I was at that session and I wouldn't read too much into it. Several players swapped bibs several times during it, so I am not sure you can read much into who was wearing what.

Yeah amongst other things I saw Itoje in blue, and Sinkler in white - neither mentioned in press. The ones I raised though all made the papers. We shall of course see in time.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Sun 19 Feb - 16:59

LondonTiger wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:He played for 70 minutes, i thought he played well saying it was his first game back.

I agree that for a first game back he did pretty well. He was however still some way below his best, and come scrum time especially so.

Bench against Italy. Marker was strong last game which will be required to start against Italy.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Sun 19 Feb - 16:59

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:He played for 70 minutes, i thought he played well saying it was his first game back.

I agree that for a first game back he did pretty well. He was however still some way below his best, and come scrum time especially so.

Bench against Italy. Marler was strong last game which will be required to start against Italy.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by beshocked on Mon 20 Feb - 20:11

I completely agree with you gwlad.

The problem is that too many people think that it's been an one man show. England have not improved solely because of Hartley. To be honest I think his leadership has been a bit overrated. England did not beat Wales because of Hartley's leadership. A lot of work by other England players has been overshadowed by Hartley.

I think it's flawed to say because England haven't lost, Hartley should stay. Why wait till a loss to make the change?

England didn't beat France because of the leadership of Hartley... it was yet again the reinforcements that turned the tide.

I don't want England to lose and if England keep putting one player on an undroppable pedestal.... it's not good at all.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 20 Feb - 20:19

beshocked wrote:...The problem is that too many people think that it's been an one man show...
I can't think of anyone who believes it's been a Hartley one-man show. Who are these people, beshocked?

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 20 Feb - 20:22

Borthwicks come out in support of Hartley as captain.

That's a death blow then Wink

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 20 Feb - 20:35

Joking aside though "these people" seem to include his team mates and coaches.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by cascough on Mon 20 Feb - 21:05

robbo277 wrote:
cascough wrote:
Scottrf wrote:The scrum has been fine with Hartley, the lineout has been fine with Hartley. Job done. Whatever else George might offer, it's not a huge surprise that replacing a captain on such a streak isn't top of Jones' priorities. Do you risk a new captain, 10 lineouts and and 5 scrums for a flashy play or two?

I think George is the better hooker for a while but it's not quite that simple.

Agreed entirely.

I think we are in a pretty nice place to be THAT solid and have Hartleys leadership to call on (not just in games, he is Jones' conduit in training too) and then have a player as good as George coming off the bench to effect games.

Are we overstating Hartley's importance though?

You can be a leader in training regardless of your match day role, and if Hartley isn't playing much more than a half anyway, does it matter which half?


Quite possibly robbo.

It seems to me though that the biggest improvement under Eddie Jones hasn't been in terms of skills, gameplan or even individual players performance, rather it's been the attitude and mental strength.

We are constantly hearing from the England coaching team and players what a good job Hartley does at setting the tone, conveying Jones message etc etc. You may be right, he might be able to do that without the label as captain, but this mental edge is such a precious commodity I'd be hesitant to upset that apple cart.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by beshocked on Mon 20 Feb - 21:05

Surely it's natural for a coach to defend a player? We'll see what England do vs Italy.

Hopefully they do the sensible thing and pick George to start. It's pretty embarrassing that he's gone this long without a start, playing consistently better than the current incumbent.  It's not just been 2 games.

To be honest I've always thought George has had leadership potential too. He's not been trusted enough.

He's not a media darling like Hartley,Farrell or Itoje or Eddie himself.

cascough Hartley didn't play in the fight backs vs France and Wales unless we assume that Hartley was the puppet master controlling the England players with mind control.

Elliot Daly was being mind controlled by Hartley.... it was him we should be praising for the try vs Wales.... OK Or indeed he made Cuthbert miss the tackle....

His leadership from the stands was pivotal. Laugh


Last edited by beshocked on Mon 20 Feb - 21:12; edited 1 time in total

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 20 Feb - 21:12

I think Jones sees a lot of himself in Hartley which is why he sticks by him, you cannot change your captain when you've won 16 in a row.

George might be the better player but there's not a lot in it, Hartley is pretty imperious at the set piece and that's vitally important during the first 40, unleash your more dynamic players against tiring legs.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 20 Feb - 21:19

Hartley a media darling?

Shocked

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by beshocked on Mon 20 Feb - 21:21

Hammersmith harrier

Do you think we've won 16 in a row solely because of Hartley? I am not denying he's played his part in quite a few games but he was certainly a passenger in the last two games. His so called superior leadership wasn't really on show.

Has it been forgotten how poor England played against France? How England were losing against both France and Wales before reinforcements arrived?

Hartley has been praised for his set piece but surely it's what we expect from a hooker? Nail their lineouts and be solid at scrum time?

Perhaps if we didn't have a hooker who could do that as well then yes you might have a point but George can do all the standard hooker stuff and more. He adds more.

Do you seriously think Hartley has been as dynamic as George?

Hartley's advantage over George has been his leadership, something George hasn't been allowed to develop as a skill but this advantage hasn't been shown yet in the 6 nations.


Gooseberry of course Hartley is a media darling, he's seemingly undroppable.


England are winning but plenty of improvement needed to challenge NZ.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by Scottrf on Mon 20 Feb - 21:36

beshocked wrote:He's not a media darling like Hartley
Not sure if serious.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 20 Feb - 21:38

There'll be changes for italy let's face it there normally is as they re the weakest team in the 6ns by a country mile. The nice thing at the moment for England is that there isn't a real requirement for new blood. We're actually doing bloody well and it's it's minor tinkering around the edges of a winning team.

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Re: England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

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