Ulster 2016/2017

by marty2086 Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

And it's been confirmed

Ulster Rugby has today announced that Jono Gibbes will join the Province as Head Coach ahead of the 2017/18 season, having signed a two-year contract.

The former New Zealand player is currently Forwards Coach at French giants ASM Clermont Auvergne and he previously held a similar position at Leinster Rugby.

Gibbes joined Leinster in 2008, helping the squad to win three Heineken Cup titles during a six-year spell in Dublin. The first of those successes came under the stewardship of Michael Cheika in 2009, before he assisted Joe Schmidt in the 2011 and 2012 triumphs.

He moved to France in 2014 and was part of a coaching set-up that guided Clermont to the Top 14 and Champions Cup finals in his debut season.

In addition to his expertise in forward play, the 40-year-old has also gained valuable experience in coaching other aspects of the game, such as attack, during his stints at Leinster and Clermont.

Gibbes said that there were many contributing factors in his move back to Ireland:

"The respect that I have for Les (Kiss), as a coach and as a person, was one of my main reasons for making this decision. He really sold his vision of where he wants to take Ulster over the next few years.

"Ulster is a team that I know well, having come up against them on a number of occasions. The Clermont-Ulster games this season gave me an insight into the strengths of the squad and it's exciting to think that I'll be part of that environment from next season.

"With 6 years at Leinster and 3 years at Clermont in the Top 14, I've been afforded many different experiences, working with some very talented coaches and players. I hope to apply what I've learned to the role at Ulster and my family and I are looking forward to integrating into a strong community in Belfast."

Welcoming the news, Director of Rugby Les Kiss, added:

"Jono's CV speaks for itself and I know that he's looking forward to joining Ulster and working with the team. Jono has vast experience on both the playing and coaching fronts, having worked in many different environments such as Super Rugby, PRO12, the French Top 14 and European competitions.

"Since his retirement from playing, Jono has had an integral role in the coaching teams of two of European rugby's most successful sides. He was a key part of the Leinster set-up that won three Heineken Cups in four years and he has continued to be hugely successful during his time in France.

"Jono's expertise as a Forwards Coach is obvious, however his wealth of knowledge in other areas of the game will be really important for us."

"A review of the coaching structure is ongoing ahead of next season and the appointment of Jono as Head Coach is the first part of that process. A further announcement will be made in the coming weeks, which will focus on getting the right balance in our coaching team."

by marty2086 Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:24 am

clivemcl wrote:Marty, you make it sound like their view is we were NOT trying to produce 9s because we didn't need one. This is a nonsense. For a very simple reason. Pienaar isn't immortal - he only has a few years left at best anyway. Does anyone really think Ulster were waiting until he retired and then (and only then) would say 'I guess we have to produce 9s now!'.

Ridiculous. We have no 9s because we have no 9s. Leinster produce back three players, because good back 3 players exist.

This is quite clearly a hypocracy. The ONLY argument that makes sense from Nucifora POV is that foreigners affect development by 'stealing' gametime. There's no way you can argue this is not also the case with Nacewa.

EDIT: Beat me to it Geoff! ;-)

That's not what Im saying, what Im saying is that they see a need for IQ 9s and they see an opportunity to force Ulsters hand. Ulster are basically saying you cant polish a turd, the IRFU are saying go find a diamond in the rough somewhere

by marty2086 Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:26 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Problem is though Pete Leinster are producing back 3 players with Nacewa there, Ulster weren't/aren't producing 9s

Is that looking at it the wrong way round - many of them have had to leave because of insufficient game time - Kelleher and Conway for example.
They have failed to secure a place in the Leinster team because of Nacewa.

Ulster have had no one remotely good enough coming through their academy for years - Marshall being the number 2 in that time is proof of that.
Pienaer has blocked no one - Nacewa has blocked players at Leinster

Double standards

Conway left when Nacewa was retiring though

I agree that theres been no one coming through but the decision is to essentially force Ulster to get creative, it sucks but that's how it goes

My issue is that he's in his mid 30's, what ever happened to NIQ over 30's not getting new contracts?

by Guest Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:28 am

profitius wrote:
clivemcl wrote:Marty, you make it sound like their view is we were NOT trying to produce 9s because we didn't need one. This is a nonsense. For a very simple reason. Pienaar isn't immortal - he only has a few years left at best anyway. Does anyone really think Ulster were waiting until he retired and then (and only then) would say 'I guess we have to produce 9s now!'.

Ridiculous. We have no 9s because we have no 9s. Leinster produce back three players, because good back 3 players exist.

This is quite clearly a hypocracy. The ONLY argument that makes sense from Nucifora POV is that foreigners affect development by 'stealing' gametime. There's no way you can argue this is not also the case with Nacewa.

EDIT: Beat me to it Geoff! ;-)

I don't agree and I can give you a good example. Remember the prop crisis in Irish rugby around 6 years ago? It was coming for ages but it took a humiliation against England (Tom Court had to play tighthead) for the IRFU to actually do something about it. They were doing nothing for a decade because John Hayes was always there to lock out the scrum. Since they started to concentrate on bringing through props we now have no shortage of props.

Teams have to be knocked out of their comfort zone from time to time so they can make improvements.

Good news on PJ.

If you could explain who exactly Pienaar has blocked from becoming a potential test level 9, your argument might have some weight. The fact is, Pienaar wasn't blocking anybody, and the dearth of 9's coming through wasn't for the want of effort.

I'm happy that Nacewa is staying at Leinster, but it is a double standard.

by geoff999rugby Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:31 am

The really stupid thing is for the first time since he joined we do have 2 prospects coming through - Stewart and O'Donnell.

Who is best to coach them and develop their potential...yep Pienaer just at the time he is going picard

As to the question of props made above

For Ulster it simply doesn't apply at LH - who was the last NIQ LH we have - seriously I haven't a clue
As to TH the only way we have adapted is by signing projects Herbst and the already qualified Ah You.
Lutton is the best, locally produced, so far and like Marshall at 9, a million miles from being International standard.

I don't really have a problem with Nacewa staying up to now but him staying and Pienaer going is a joke.

by Kingshu Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:59 am

The IRFU do appear to take notions, when Rockly Elsom had his short stay in Leinster and was credited with Leinsters home grown backrows coming on, the plan seamed to be that the IRFU wished for NIQ players to be short stay players to bring on the IQ players, this did have the negative effect that since NIQ players knew they may just be there short term that they didn't fully buy into the province, or only journey men players would be interested.

I think the treatment of Pienaar reinforces this, and may make it more difficult in future, whereas the treatment of Nacewa is the opposite. We really want and need to reward the top players that come and buy into the province, so we can attract their like again.
If we were trying to sign Muller for next year (rather than a few years ago) would he sign? Probably not, as Ulster was recommend by Pienaar, and would supply a secure future, if he knew a player who bought into the team as much as Pienaar how adds alot to the team can be shipped on, then why would he be, even if he plays really well, and buys into the team.

When a player comes in a plays well and buys into the team, they have to think they will be able to stay, otherwise whats the point in them trying? We have seen players in the past only really make a big effort in their last year to secure a new contact or a good one elsewhere, thats not the sort of player we want to attract, but moving players as loyal as Pienaar on, it makes it harder to get another Muller, Pienaar type player.

The other notion they have taken is when they were trying to develop tightheads they really limited NIQ tighthead props and now have an abundance of riches. Now they wish to develop no 9's and are tightening up on NIQ 9's, I think thats fair enough.

However I think they are cutting off their noses on this one, by making it more difficult for the provinces to attract quality NIQ players.

There is a confilict of intrests
The IRFU want to limit NIQ in certain positions, and have them only stay a short time to bring up the IQ talent. The provinces want the best NIQ player they can get, and this involves rewarding performances and buying into the province as a whole (which doesn't matter to the IRFU's plans).

In this situation Pienaar should have been rewarded, he turned down bigger contracts to stay before, he has improved and bought into the province and is the exact type of NIQ player we want to attract in future, and we need to reward this. This conflicts with the IRFU's plans, and will make in harder on the province in the long run. Instead a comprise should have been reached, instead of the IRFU says no more Pienaar, they should have been assisting Ulster a few years ago, why wasn't Marmion or another exile no 9 placed with Ulster by the IRFU? Why did they not help move Hart?

by Redman Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:08 am

Great news on Jackson but exceedingly poor from the IRFU.

From the looks of it Jackson's isn't a central contract so it'll be coming out of our coffers while Leinster are allowed to do whatever they want. Obviously happy for the fans in Leinster, but let no one pretend it's a level playing field.

by **profitius** Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:46 am

Munchkin wrote:
profitius wrote:
clivemcl wrote:Marty, you make it sound like their view is we were NOT trying to produce 9s because we didn't need one. This is a nonsense. For a very simple reason. Pienaar isn't immortal - he only has a few years left at best anyway. Does anyone really think Ulster were waiting until he retired and then (and only then) would say 'I guess we have to produce 9s now!'.

Ridiculous. We have no 9s because we have no 9s. Leinster produce back three players, because good back 3 players exist.

This is quite clearly a hypocracy. The ONLY argument that makes sense from Nucifora POV is that foreigners affect development by 'stealing' gametime. There's no way you can argue this is not also the case with Nacewa.

EDIT: Beat me to it Geoff! ;-)

I don't agree and I can give you a good example. Remember the prop crisis in Irish rugby around 6 years ago? It was coming for ages but it took a humiliation against England (Tom Court had to play tighthead) for the IRFU to actually do something about it. They were doing nothing for a decade because John Hayes was always there to lock out the scrum. Since they started to concentrate on bringing through props we now have no shortage of props.

Teams have to be knocked out of their comfort zone from time to time so they can make improvements.

Good news on PJ.

If you could explain who exactly Pienaar has blocked from becoming a potential test level 9, your argument might have some weight. The fact is, Pienaar wasn't blocking anybody, and the dearth of 9's coming through wasn't for the want of effort.

I'm happy that Nacewa is staying at Leinster, but it is a double standard.

The point of my post is that they have to try harder to find these 9s.

by **profitius** Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:55 am

Redman wrote:Great news on Jackson but exceedingly poor from the IRFU.

From the looks of it Jackson's isn't a central contract so it'll be coming out of our coffers while Leinster are allowed to do whatever they want. Obviously happy for the fans in Leinster, but let no one pretend it's a level playing field.

The central contract system is outdated IMO. They could try some other system like going halves with the provinces. Even then there would be debates about what players should be in that scheme.

by Guest Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:57 am

profitius wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
profitius wrote:
clivemcl wrote:Marty, you make it sound like their view is we were NOT trying to produce 9s because we didn't need one. This is a nonsense. For a very simple reason. Pienaar isn't immortal - he only has a few years left at best anyway. Does anyone really think Ulster were waiting until he retired and then (and only then) would say 'I guess we have to produce 9s now!'.

Ridiculous. We have no 9s because we have no 9s. Leinster produce back three players, because good back 3 players exist.

This is quite clearly a hypocracy. The ONLY argument that makes sense from Nucifora POV is that foreigners affect development by 'stealing' gametime. There's no way you can argue this is not also the case with Nacewa.

EDIT: Beat me to it Geoff! ;-)

I don't agree and I can give you a good example. Remember the prop crisis in Irish rugby around 6 years ago? It was coming for ages but it took a humiliation against England (Tom Court had to play tighthead) for the IRFU to actually do something about it. They were doing nothing for a decade because John Hayes was always there to lock out the scrum. Since they started to concentrate on bringing through props we now have no shortage of props.

Teams have to be knocked out of their comfort zone from time to time so they can make improvements.

Good news on PJ.

If you could explain who exactly Pienaar has blocked from becoming a potential test level 9, your argument might have some weight. The fact is, Pienaar wasn't blocking anybody, and the dearth of 9's coming through wasn't for the want of effort.

I'm happy that Nacewa is staying at Leinster, but it is a double standard.

The point of my post is that they have to try harder to find these 9s.

Who says they can try any harder than they have been? I would love to see the evidence to back that up. There won't be any.

Is that really Nucifora's reasoning ("we will hammer Ulster's hope of silverware, based on the completely unfounded belief that they might not have been trying hard enough"). Only Munster have a produced a 9 worth a damn, over the last few years.

If Pienaar played for Leinster, he would probably still be there next season.

by clivemcl Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:06 am

profitius wrote:
yadda yadda yadda...

The point of my post is that they have to try harder to find these 9s.

And again I say it's a nonsense that Ulster weren't trying.

- Pienaar would not have lasted forever anyway
- Career ending injuries can happen at any time
- Depth is vital in todays game - we would have cared as much if we had a good BACKUP 9

The idea that Ulster have not been in the market for an IQ 9, or developing IQ 9's properly simply because we had Pienaar is utter idiocy.

If Cooney had wanted to sign any time in the past 3/4 years I guarantee Ulster would have taken him. The only possible argument for why we were NOT getting the likes of Cooney or Hart would be because they didn't want to be backup to Ruan. That's unlikely - any young scrum-half would jump at the chance to learn from Ruan for a few years before taking over.

I just don't agree that Cooney signing for us now Pienaar is leaving is evidence that he was 'blocking'.

Ulster needed another better IQ9 regardless of if Pienaar was staying or going. Our need only slightly increased.

by The Great Aukster Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:34 am

Ulster need to stop whinging and start becoming competitive. Blaming the IRFU or Nucifora is just loser speak looking for excuses. Ulster have won zip with Pienaar so to blame anyone for that malaise other than themselves is where the real hypocrisy lies. Smile and applaud Leinster for getting Isa to sign another 10 year contract - silverware earns special treatment.

Ulster have been missing forwards and they still are. It wouldn't matter if they had Gareth Edwards and Joost on the bench they still would be winning zip. It is time they woke up and noticed the three fingers pointing back with the one pointing forwards. Deflect the issue with the Pienaar saga but that is incredibly convenient for Bryn (and Humph before him). So Gibson Park, Hart or Cooney couldn't have been persuaded - pull the other one.

It is high time that the Branch and fans realised that if you put the same rubbish in you get the same rubbish out, and while they persist in not taking ownership of the problem it will never be solved.

by rapidsnowman Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:45 pm

Redman wrote:Great news on Jackson but exceedingly poor from the IRFU.

From the looks of it Jackson's isn't a central contract so it'll be coming out of our coffers while Leinster are allowed to do whatever they want. Obviously happy for the fans in Leinster, but let no one pretend it's a level playing field.

I my humble opinion Joey Carberry is going to take over from Sexton (for Ireland) in medium to long-term. Paddy is fantastic and Ulster and Ireland are lucky to have him, but Carberry has the 'X factor' (hate that phrase).

Watch his run, from fullback admittedly, to set up the first Leinster try. He reminds me of David Humphreys (in his playing days, not now).

http://www.pro12rugby.com/video/

Very talented footballer and still only 21 I think.

by marty2086 Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:10 pm

And Scott Fardy has apparently stated he's signed for Leinster for next season Shocked

by carpet baboon Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:28 pm

marty2086 wrote:And Scott Fardy has apparently stated he's signed for Leinster for next season

The blindside/lock Scott fardy? Hmmmm are they short of players in the back 5?

I'm sure leavy conan and the rest won't mind a bit extra competition ffs

by marty2086 Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:31 pm

That's the fella, Conan won't be there next season though

by Pete330v2 Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:31 pm

Nothing would shock me at the moment, Nucifora is a grade A 'End of a Bell'

by Pete330v2 Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:41 pm

I'd love to hear how some people think Ulster are supposed to get competitive when world class players who want desperately to play for us are told to shuffle on whilst south of the border they are having a signfest. Handicapping everyone under the same rules is tough enough but adding extra, biased handicapping to Ulster is just ridiculous. F F S

by carpet baboon Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:54 pm

marty2086 wrote:That's the fella, Conan won't be there next season though

Has the move to Leicester been confirmed?

by marty2086 Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:56 pm

The problem with Nucifora and the IRFU are that they are being told that Ulster aren't producing 9s, yet there is no sign of them asking why.

They are being told we can't get players to come north to Ulster and they aren't asking why.

Surely anyone with the best interests of Irish rugby in mind would be asking what the problems are and trying to create solutions. Shifting Connachts third choice 9 isn't the solution to a problem its the creation of at least one other problem

by marty2086 Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:58 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
marty2086 wrote:That's the fella, Conan won't be there next season though

Has the move to Leicester been confirmed?

Not as yet but think they still need to announce a new DoR too

by carpet baboon Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:01 pm

marty2086 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
marty2086 wrote:That's the fella, Conan won't be there next season though

Has the move to Leicester been confirmed?

Not as yet but think they still need to announce a new DoR too

Why risk your int career when you could travel north and hang out with coteez and Botha and the mighty Henderson. Seems decking daft to me

by **rodders** Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:02 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:Nothing would shock me at the moment, Nucifora is a grade A 'End of a Bell'

Don't agree, I think he's done an incredible job. He's dragging Irish rugby out of the dark ages, unfortunately the dinosaurs in Ulster branch are dragging their feet so he's right to play hard ball.

I agree totally with Auksters comments. Ulster were told as far back as 2012 that they weren't going to be able to keep signing these players and needed to bring home grown players through to replace them. I feel for Pienaar personally but the club themselves had plenty of forewarning, this wasn't sprung on them.

Compared to Munster and Leinster our contribution to the national sides at all levels is appalling despite the money that has been spent.

by marty2086 Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:04 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
marty2086 wrote:That's the fella, Conan won't be there next season though

Has the move to Leicester been confirmed?

Not as yet but think they still need to announce a new DoR too

Why risk your int career when you could travel north and hang out with coteez and Botha and the mighty Henderson. Seems decking daft to me

Like I said above, Nucifora should be asking why they are losing quality players from Ireland abroad when they could be kept here

by Kingshu Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:16 pm

Intresting insight from Levy about not moving

http://www.the42.ie/dan-leavy-leinster-ireland-interview-3265461-Mar2017/

“I was born and raised in Dublin. This is my home,” Leavy says.
“To look somewhere else — I wouldn’t say it would be impossible — but I would prefer to stay here.
“It is the same with a lot of the other back rows. It is a struggle, everyone is fighting for the same jersey.

also
http://www.the42.ie/scott-fardy-wallabies-back-row-leinster-3266504-Mar2017/

Leinster set to sign Wallabies international Scott Fardy as a second row

Seams strange to me as he is a backrow that can play second row, rather than an out and out second row (Leinster certainly don't need more backrow options)
I guess they want a scrummaging second row that adds bulk.

by Pete330v2 Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:13 pm

rodders wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Nothing would shock me at the moment, Nucifora is a grade A 'End of a Bell'

Don't agree, I think he's done an incredible job. He's dragging Irish rugby out of the dark ages, unfortunately the dinosaurs in Ulster branch are dragging their feet so he's right to play hard ball.

I agree totally with Auksters comments. Ulster were told as far back as 2012 that they weren't going to be able to keep signing these players and needed to bring home grown players through to replace them. I feel for Pienaar personally but the club themselves had plenty of forewarning, this wasn't sprung on them.

Compared to Munster and Leinster our contribution to the national sides at all levels is appalling despite the money that has been spent.

I in turn do not agree with that Rodders.

I am quite certain that Ulster rugby have been trying their utmost to find a home grown scrum half but looking at the options it's clear there has been a problem in finding a player that can do a job there. If they've ignored the problem then fair enough, it's their fault but I doubt it. You can't make a silk purse out of sows ear.
As for Nucifora playing hardball, that's fine, but at least give us a level playing field, don't just throw a 3rd choice 9 from Connacht at us.

by **rodders** Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:28 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Nothing would shock me at the moment, Nucifora is a grade A 'End of a Bell'

Don't agree, I think he's done an incredible job. He's dragging Irish rugby out of the dark ages, unfortunately the dinosaurs in Ulster branch are dragging their feet so he's right to play hard ball.

I agree totally with Auksters comments. Ulster were told as far back as 2012 that they weren't going to be able to keep signing these players and needed to bring home grown players through to replace them. I feel for Pienaar personally but the club themselves had plenty of forewarning, this wasn't sprung on them.

Compared to Munster and Leinster our contribution to the national sides at all levels is appalling despite the money that has been spent.

I in turn do not agree with that Rodders.

I am quite certain that Ulster rugby have been trying their utmost to find a home grown scrum half but looking at the options it's clear there has been a problem in finding a player that can do a job there. If they've ignored the problem then fair enough, it's their fault but I doubt it. You can't make a silk purse out of sows ear.
As for Nucifora playing hardball, that's fine, but at least give us a level playing field, don't just throw a 3rd choice 9 from Connacht at us.

How many games have been started by any scrum half other than Pienaar in the last 5 seasons, except when he's been injured or on on international duty?

How many minutes even has any other 9 got in meaningful games?

People moan about Leinster but they will rotate their NIEs to allow their homegrown players to come through.

Ulster have put all their eggs in one basket, despite knowing that Pienaar would need to go eventually. In 1 or 2 years nothing would be different which is why the IRFU have called time on the extensions.

Paul Marshalls career has stalled badly due to lack of game time. Heaney had a couple of games - I'm sorry but they have brought it on themselves, you can't develop players without playing them.

Lock is the same, Muller was supposed to be developing players but 3 years after he's left we have 2 forwards in the Irish squad. The arguments don't stand up, Ulster have had long stretch of investment and flexibility with signings and the same problems remain in key positions.

Nucifera is trying to address it but the branch want to bury their head in the sand.

by marty2086 Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:37 pm

rodders wrote:
Ulster have put all their eggs in one basket, despite knowing that Pienaar would need to go eventually. In 1 or 2 years nothing would be different which is why the IRFU have called time on the extensions.

Paul Marshalls career has stalled badly due to lack of game time. Heaney had a couple of games - I'm sorry but they have brought it on themselves, you can't develop players without playing them.

rodders while I agree with some of what you have said, how many games does it take to make Marshall and Heaney top class players?

Isaac Boss wasn't getting game time at Leinster behind Reddan yet was still in the Ireland squad

Would Paddy Jackson be the player he is today with Marshall or Heaney at 9?

by Pete330v2 Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:39 pm

"Paul Marshalls career has stalled badly due to lack of game time. Heaney had a couple of games - I'm sorry but they have brought it on themselves, you can't develop players without playing them."

So you believe that both these players would have been 1stXV starters had it not been for Pienaar??
Come on Rodders, really?

by **rodders** Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:00 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:"Paul Marshalls career has stalled badly due to lack of game time. Heaney had a couple of games - I'm sorry but they have brought it on themselves, you can't develop players without playing them."

So you believe that both these players would have been 1stXV starters had it not been for Pienaar??
Come on Rodders, really?

No I believe they'd be better players if they had played more games.

by **rodders** Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:05 pm

marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Ulster have put all their eggs in one basket, despite knowing that Pienaar would need to go eventually. In 1 or 2 years nothing would be different which is why the IRFU have called time on the extensions.

Paul Marshalls career has stalled badly due to lack of game time. Heaney had a couple of games - I'm sorry but they have brought it on themselves, you can't develop players without playing them.

rodders while I agree with some of what you have said, how many games does it take to make Marshall and Heaney top class players?

Isaac Boss wasn't getting game time at Leinster behind Reddan yet was still in the Ireland squad

Would Paddy Jackson be the player he is today with Marshall or Heaney at 9?

Paddy is the player he is today because Ulster had the courage to pick him and back him, even when it didn't always go too well.

Interesting though he has only become a top class kicker since Schmidt pushed for him to goal kick ahead of Pienaar.

Compare Isaac Boss game time to Marshall's. Yes Reddan was first choice but there was a lot of rotation between the too.

by clivemcl Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:06 pm

rodders wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
rodders wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Nothing would shock me at the moment, Nucifora is a grade A 'End of a Bell'

Don't agree, I think he's done an incredible job. He's dragging Irish rugby out of the dark ages, unfortunately the dinosaurs in Ulster branch are dragging their feet so he's right to play hard ball.

I agree totally with Auksters comments. Ulster were told as far back as 2012 that they weren't going to be able to keep signing these players and needed to bring home grown players through to replace them. I feel for Pienaar personally but the club themselves had plenty of forewarning, this wasn't sprung on them.

Compared to Munster and Leinster our contribution to the national sides at all levels is appalling despite the money that has been spent.

I in turn do not agree with that Rodders.

I am quite certain that Ulster rugby have been trying their utmost to find a home grown scrum half but looking at the options it's clear there has been a problem in finding a player that can do a job there. If they've ignored the problem then fair enough, it's their fault but I doubt it. You can't make a silk purse out of sows ear.
As for Nucifora playing hardball, that's fine, but at least give us a level playing field, don't just throw a 3rd choice 9 from Connacht at us.

How many games have been started by any scrum half other than Pienaar in the last 5 seasons, except when he's been injured or on on international duty? Why exclude this? Rugby is a squad game, we needed a better backup 9, all along - the idea we were content with Marshall is daft - injuries and internationals is the very reason we WERE concerned with producing/signing IQ 9s. They just were all crap.

How many minutes even has any other 9 got in meaningful games? I think players need to be of a certain calibre to be trusted. They weren't. God knows Ruan needed resting, but we also needed to win games.

People moan about Leinster but they will rotate their NIEs to allow their homegrown players to come through.

Ulster have put all their eggs in one basket, despite knowing that Pienaar would need to go eventually. In 1 or 2 years nothing would be different which is why the IRFU have called time on the extensions. Wait hold on - you do know we signed 3/4 IQ 9s during Pienaar's time here? How is that putting all our trust in Ruan? The evidence is there - we signed and tried many players - they all failed to impress.

Paul Marshalls career has stalled badly due to lack of game time. He was test level potential? REALLY? Heaney had a couple of games - I'm sorry but they have brought it on themselves, you can't develop players without playing them. You can't win silverware by losing games as a result of starting poor players.

Lock is the same, Muller was supposed to be developing players but 3 years after he's left we have 2 forwards in the Irish squad. The arguments don't stand up, Ulster have had long stretch of investment and flexibility with signings and the same problems remain in key positions.

Nucifera is trying to address it but the branch want to bury their head in the sand.

by clivemcl Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:07 pm

rodders wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:"Paul Marshalls career has stalled badly due to lack of game time. Heaney had a couple of games - I'm sorry but they have brought it on themselves, you can't develop players without playing them."

So you believe that both these players would have been 1stXV starters had it not been for Pienaar??
Come on Rodders, really?

No I believe they'd be better players if they had played more games.

This has never been about making IQ players better, this is about finding IQ talent that can be of service to the international squad.

by **rodders** Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:09 pm

Clive we haven't won any silverware.

How many games have those IQ SHs played? No point signing a player you aren't going to play.

Paul Marshall is not test class, I didn't say he was but he's a far worse player now than he was a few years ago when He got more game time. Since Pienaar retired from the springboks he's hardly played and the difference is obvious.

by **rodders** Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:10 pm

clivemcl wrote:
rodders wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:"Paul Marshalls career has stalled badly due to lack of game time. Heaney had a couple of games - I'm sorry but they have brought it on themselves, you can't develop players without playing them."

So you believe that both these players would have been 1stXV starters had it not been for Pienaar??
Come on Rodders, really?

No I believe they'd be better players if they had played more games.

This has never been about making IQ players better, this is about finding IQ talent that can be of service to the international squad.

No its about developing quality players for Ulster to replace the overseas ones we knew for sometime we'd have to let go of.

by clivemcl Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:16 pm

rodders wrote:
clivemcl wrote:
rodders wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:"Paul Marshalls career has stalled badly due to lack of game time. Heaney had a couple of games - I'm sorry but they have brought it on themselves, you can't develop players without playing them."

So you believe that both these players would have been 1stXV starters had it not been for Pienaar??
Come on Rodders, really?

No I believe they'd be better players if they had played more games.

This has never been about making IQ players better, this is about finding IQ talent that can be of service to the international squad.

No its about developing quality players for Ulster to replace the overseas ones we knew for sometime we'd have to let go of.

David Nucifora wrote:“It is vital for both Ulster and Irish rugby that the province develop indigenous talent in this position and an extension of Ruan’s contract would further prevent Irish qualified Ulster players from maximising their developmental potential and becoming stars for both Ulster and Ireland.”

by carpet baboon Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:23 pm

Any way. Not a bad looking team for tomorrow night.
Is this the first time Olding g and Payne have started in the centre together?

by marty2086 Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:25 pm

rodders wrote:Clive we haven't won any silverware.

How many games have those IQ SHs played? No point signing a player you aren't going to play.

Paul Marshall is not test class, I didn't say he was but he's a far worse player now than he was a few years ago when He got more game time. Since Pienaar retired from the springboks he's hardly played and the difference is obvious.

Sorry rodders but the decline was there well before that, it came around the time he got his Irish caps. His form wavered before the 2013 tour when he played then when he came back he was well off the pace that season. He rallied a bit the season after that but the decline has been coming

by geoff999rugby Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:30 pm

Ulster have brought in a number of SH's the problem is none have been good enough- Heaney, Porter, Shanahan
Marshall could have played every game for a decade he still would not be god enough.
Mention above of trying harder and why did we not get Gibson-Park, Hart, Cooney earlier
None of these are relevant:
Gibson-Park was not available to Ulster as Nucifora determined Leinster should get the next Project 9
Hart would not come to us whatever we offered
Cooney was not previously prepared to leave Connacht - as soon as he was we signed him

Like most, if not all, I share the frustration of Rodders and Aukster at the incompetence in Ulster but that doesn't justify the decisions re Pienaer and Nacewa.

We all know there are huge problems with schools rugby and club rugby here which means we are not unearthing the quality we need locally. Sending Pienaer packing is not going to lead to the change required that needs to come from the Ulster branch with the full support of the IRFU. First thing I would do stop giving certain schools an elevated status - if you are at Methody you only have to be a 6/10 player to get noticed, if you are at Wallace you have to be a 8/20 player, if you are west of the Bann you have to be a 10/10 - that cant be right.
I'd tell the schools you ain't playing your final at Ravenhill until you change your attitude to six formers playing at clubs.
I'd tell the clubs if you want continued support you need to work with us to develop players and that means employing coach we vet and approve. In return we will improve the number of times our fringe players are available to you.
Hopefully this will be part of Kiss new remit.

Why is this relevant to Piernaer ? - because it is the dysfunctional system that has played a large part in why Ulster, in spite of all their efforts have failed to find an adequate 9 for, at least, a decade.

Lets take a step back and identify why we bring in NIQ players.

1 - To address areas of weakness in the Provinces so the teams remain competitive
2 - Hopefully to assist in the coaching of Irish qualified players

Pienaer clearly does address a glaring weakness In the squad and in the short term at least that shortfall exist.
Far more so than Nacewa.
Also the argument that Leinster deserve reward and Ulster should be punished is the complete reverse of point 1.
Look at Connacht they have benefitted greatly from having more NIQ players and hopefully will be able to reduce to a lower number
in future years. The retention of Pienaer would not have contravened the overall numbers at Ulster.

As to coaching you may ask if Pienaer is so wonderful why don't Ulster have a good IQ 9 then?
Simple 'you cant polish a turd' - harsh but true - no one comes up to scatch.
There is one player who has publically stated Pienaer has made him a much beeter player and that is Paddy Jackson.
Also, as I mentioned, we have our best two prospect in a decade and imv longer in Burgess and O'Donnell and we are letting Pienaer go just when he could really bring them on.
We could have kept Pienaer, signed Cooney (who would have learnt from him as well) and let Marshall go.
In two years time we would have Cooney, Burgess and O'Donnell, all IQ, all vying for the spot having all been trained by a World Class 9 - now that makes sense.

On Jackson been told this morning that his contract is the highest ever for an IQ player at Ulster.
Also, and very interestingly, been told he was close to leaving because Pienaer is leaving.
So by getting rid of Pienaer we came close to losing Jackson - one to ponder

The big disadvantage is of course blocking other players - Nacewa has reduced the number of appearances of some players of a decent standard, Pienaer has not.

by geoff999rugby Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:31 pm

marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:Clive we haven't won any silverware.

How many games have those IQ SHs played? No point signing a player you aren't going to play.

Paul Marshall is not test class, I didn't say he was but he's a far worse player now than he was a few years ago when He got more game time. Since Pienaar retired from the springboks he's hardly played and the difference is obvious.

Sorry rodders but the decline was there well before that, it came around the time he got his Irish caps. His form wavered before the 2013 tour when he played then when he came back he was well off the pace that season. He rallied a bit the season after that but the decline has been coming

Marshall has not regressed - he is where he has always been short of the standard required

by geoff999rugby Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 pm

Couple of other fact

Leinster sign a back five player who is 32 for 2 Years.

Nacewa is two years old than Pienaer and will now be there for a period longer than Pienaer at Ulster.

by marty2086 Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:46 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:Clive we haven't won any silverware.

How many games have those IQ SHs played? No point signing a player you aren't going to play.

Paul Marshall is not test class, I didn't say he was but he's a far worse player now than he was a few years ago when He got more game time. Since Pienaar retired from the springboks he's hardly played and the difference is obvious.

Sorry rodders but the decline was there well before that, it came around the time he got his Irish caps. His form wavered before the 2013 tour when he played then when he came back he was well off the pace that season. He rallied a bit the season after that but the decline has been coming

Marshall has not regressed - he is where he has always been short of the standard required

Geoff he may not have been a top class 9 4 or 5 years ago when he peaked for about a season and was always inferior to Pienaar but he offered more then than he does now and was an asset. For me though his skills both technically and mentally have went backwards and he's almost a liability at times with his wonky passing

by Redman Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:54 pm

I don't really understand a lot of the arguments here. A lot of it is taken in isolation.

Overall Ulster haven't done great in producing enough players but they still have produced quite a few. Mainly backs, which are sadly not needed. I'd understand the argument of Ulster dragging their feet in respect of backrowers. There was an excellent article on an Irish site which I sadly can't find saying that Ulster's backrow issues were their own damn fault. Dow and Joyce were both U20 captains, neither made it. Whose fault was that? Ulster's, undeniably. Realistically the IRFU should have told us we couldn't be allowed to have Botha because there are other options, either in our own academy or for other provinces.

That argument doesn't hold for 9s. You can't claim that we have had any 9s in the last number of years that Ulster have held back or under developed. Sometimes that's the way it goes and NIQ should be permitted to cater for that possible outcome.

If anyone can find that article on Ulster backrowers I'd be very grateful. I think someone posted it here maybe 2 or 3 months ago. It might have been 42.ie???

by geoff999rugby Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:01 am

Dow I agree - he should be playing instead of Wilson

Joyce disagree - just hasn't kicked on

by marty2086 Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:31 am

So this is why Heron hasn't been playing,

Ulster Rugby star Brett Herron has been fined two weeks pay and deselected after being convicted for drink-driving.

The 21-year-old fly-half, who lives at Motelands, Belfast, appeared in Ards magistrates' court to plead guilty to the charge he drove with excess alcohol in his breath at Upper Newtownards Road, Dundonald, on January 22, this year.

His lawyer told the court that as well as the court's verdict he had been punished through non-selection and had been fined two week's pay by Ulster for his behaviour.

The lawyer said on the night in question Herron had been out with friends. He returned home, saw there was no food in the house, and decided to drive to McDonalds, where he was caught by police. Herron was 'embarrassed' by the incident, the court heard.

District Judge Mark Hamill banned him from driving for a year, fined him £250, and imposed an offender's levy of £15.

Fined two weeks wages and deselected while Wilson only received a fine for his second offence Rolling Eyes

by clivemcl Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:42 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Ulster have brought in a number of SH's the problem is none have been good enough- Heaney, Porter, Shanahan
Marshall could have played every game for a decade he still would not be god enough.
Mention above of trying harder and why did we not get Gibson-Park, Hart, Cooney earlier
None of these are relevant:
Gibson-Park was not available to Ulster as Nucifora determined Leinster should get the next Project 9
Hart would not come to us whatever we offered
Cooney was not previously prepared to leave Connacht - as soon as he was we signed him

Like most, if not all, I share the frustration of Rodders and Aukster at the incompetence in Ulster but that doesn't justify the decisions re Pienaer and Nacewa.

...........

And whats more Geoff, I really doubt Pienaar leaving was the deciding factor. I believe Cooney would have come anyway and learned from Pienaar for 1 or 2 seasons. The idea that Cooney signing is a result of Ulster's hand being forced is pie in the sky.

by **rodders** Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:35 am

clivemcl wrote:
rodders wrote:
clivemcl wrote:
rodders wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:"Paul Marshalls career has stalled badly due to lack of game time. Heaney had a couple of games - I'm sorry but they have brought it on themselves, you can't develop players without playing them."

So you believe that both these players would have been 1stXV starters had it not been for Pienaar??
Come on Rodders, really?

No I believe they'd be better players if they had played more games.

This has never been about making IQ players better, this is about finding IQ talent that can be of service to the international squad.

No its about developing quality players for Ulster to replace the overseas ones we knew for sometime we'd have to let go of.

David Nucifora wrote:“It is vital for both Ulster and Irish rugby that the province develop indigenous talent in this position and an extension of Ruan’s contract would further prevent Irish qualified Ulster players from maximising their developmental potential and becoming stars for both Ulster and Ireland.”

I was referring to what my point was about but thanks for the quote which supports my point not yours.

by **rodders** Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:47 am

Redman wrote:
That argument doesn't hold for 9s. You can't claim that we have had any 9s in the last number of years that Ulster have held back or under developed. Sometimes that's the way it goes and NIQ should be permitted to cater for that possible outcome.

We have because they haven't played. Yer man Williams is useless down at Munster but he's developed more than our players because they've actually played him. There was nothing between Marmions and Marshall a few yeas ago, the difference is one has played and the other hasn't.

To clarify I'd love Pienaar to stay for 2 more seasons. However my point is that the criticism of Nucifera is misplaced. In 2 years we'll be no better off at scrum half because of the way Ulster are handling player development.

Forgetting the IRFUs intervention, a player can have a career end anytime, especially post 30, so we should have had a succession plan in place and we simply have done nothing around replacing Ruan in the last 5-6 years - that is the real issue.

by marty2086 Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:50 am

rodders you are being ridiculous now, theres also the fact that Marmion a few years ago was a young guy still learning and trying to establish himself, if Marshall was at that level a few years ago then no amount of game time was going to bring him up to scratch

by **rodders** Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:57 am

Marshall in 2009 was as good as Marmion a couple of seasons ago without question. I'd argue he was better than the Marmion of today.

by clivemcl Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:59 am

I'm so confused Rodders, so having a slightly better IQ 9 who improves a little thanks to gametime is supposedly a 'result' for us? You aren't exactly selling it to us here.
I'm pretty sure we want test class - preferably IQ test class, but test class regardless. Who in their right mind would be happy to ditch somebody like Pienaar just to sit back and watch an under par IQ scrum-half transform into nothing more than an OK scrum-half.

I can hardly contain my excitement, thank goodness Pienaar is gone, and the flood gates towards being above average are now open!

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