Who does the Lions represent for you?

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Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by cascough on Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:08 pm

First topic message reminder :

For you personally, are the Lions representing the British isles, or are they representing your nation whilst playing for the Lions?

This is not a question of which is more important to you. For example, I support England and if I had to choose would rather England won a world cup than the Lions win a Test series. But this does not mean that my enjoyment of or interest in the Lions is related to England's representation in the Lions. As I've said a few times, If I felt the best lions XV was all Irish, then I'd be happy with seeing that named because they are representing the British Isles. I'm not supporting England through the medium of the Lions so it makes no difference.

It's been put to me that it's easy for me to say that, because as an England fan, England have always been well represented, but I still find it curious that some fans are not bothered about the Lions unless a lot of their players are selected.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Griff on Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:01 pm

New Zealand and Australia are not invited to the Lions ,'Fly, because there're not part of the.... how do I say it without causing offence to some.... the group of 6000 isles in the North Atlantic grouped together by an ancient title. The Lions did and does represent those islands that include England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey and lots and lots of much smaller islands. New Zealand and Aus ain't from here, quite simply! It's just a regional thing. A collective. So the sameness between us is merely in that thing that transcends politics and time (until someone figures how to put a motor on us and sail us to sunnier climes) - location.


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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by SecretFly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:13 pm

Griff wrote:New Zealand and Australia are not invited to the Lions ,'Fly, because there're not part of the.... how do I say it without causing offence to some.... the group of 6000 isles in the North Atlantic grouped together by an ancient title. The Lions did and does represent those islands that include England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey and lots and lots of much smaller islands. New Zealand and Aus ain't from here, quite simply! It's just a regional thing. A collective. So the sameness between us is merely in that thing that transcends politics and time (until someone figures how to put a motor on us and sail us to sunnier climes) - location.


Well, no.  The Lions is something that has hung around from Imperial times - and when it formed it represented the Realm, not a group of 6000 isles.  It represented the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland... that's what it represented.  And who was it that said above - em, Who Cares.... that it was a trip to the colonies.  And that's what it was - the Home of the Empire going to the colonies for a bit of sport.

What it represents now is open to debate................ as we see here.  But you can't make someone who sees the politics of the history not see that politics of the history.

It's a grand show in the present.  I enjoy it.  It's great for entertainment, great for intrigue and subterfuge.  But no, I don't get nervous when they play or fear about them losing. I don't feel that unity bond. It's a Barbarian side to me.  Others do feel the bond intensely. Others have already admitted above that they feel its a kind of Team GB.  Good for them.  That's their emotion.  There are many contributors to the cause who don't feel that.  That's all I continue to highlight.  The Complexity continues.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Gwlad on Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:26 pm

nothing worse than those who would politicize sport. Sport is sport, the Ancient Olympics was an intermission of war between the ancient states of what we know as Greece. We've seen how politics has tainted that great institution. Is nothing sacred or do the cynics have to destroy every aspect of our cultural raison d'être.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Cyril on Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:32 pm

Don't mess with Gwlad's cultural raison d'être.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Steffan on Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:54 pm

I don't mind watching the Lions as a spectacle (despite really early kickoffs) and want them to win due to the Welsh boys in the team but it doesn't really bother me either way. The last Lions tour with O'Driscoll-Gate and a lot of Irish people I know wanting them to lose due to Gatland showed the lack of unity along with Welsh people I know back in 2005 feeling quite annoyed there were not enough Welsh Grandslam players in the team. Personally in the modern profesional era I think the Lions serve a tradition but not much purpose other than money making


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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by SecretFly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:55 pm

Gwlad wrote:nothing worse than those who would politicize sport. Sport is sport, the Ancient Olympics was an intermission of war between the ancient states of what we know as Greece. We've seen how politics has tainted that great institution. Is nothing sacred or do the cynics have to destroy every aspect of our cultural raison d'être.

Counting National Medal hauls, and comparing them with the medal hauls of other political entities - i.e. the UK feverishly interested in their medal haul at the last few Olympics and injecting millions into virtual military campaigns to collect as many of them as they can and indeed go above the number of the nearest rivals USA, Germany, China etc... is a political act.  Governments fund sport because it is a vehicle that promotes the Nation, business interests in the Nation and propaganda for the Nation.

To say sport is not about and shouldn't involve politics is to say the South African WC winning Rugby team handing the cup to Mandela wasn't a profoundly political moment.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by ChequeredJersey on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:02 pm

For me, the Lions are representing the UK and Ireland, who despite being separate countries are still very close in many ways, and are the only way in rugby that I can really embrace my feeling of Britishness which I feel just as strongly as being English
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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Cyril on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:09 pm

I think it's true though (as the Irish are saying on here) that they don't feel particularly one with Great Britain. Just because you're geographically close (or even joined in landmass) doesn't mean you feel kinship or any real sense of fellowship. Sometimes it's the opposite.

I remember a Welshman saying to me he felt more in common with the French than the English. Mind you, he only washed once a week.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Gwlad on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:11 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:nothing worse than those who would politicize sport. Sport is sport, the Ancient Olympics was an intermission of war between the ancient states of what we know as Greece. We've seen how politics has tainted that great institution. Is nothing sacred or do the cynics have to destroy every aspect of our cultural raison d'être.

Counting National Medal hauls, and comparing them with the medal hauls of other political entities - i.e. the UK feverishly interested in their medal haul at the last few Olympics and injecting millions into virtual military campaigns to collect as many of them as they can and indeed go above the number of the nearest rivals USA, Germany, China etc... is a political act.  Governments fund sport because it is a vehicle that promotes the Nation, business interests in the Nation and propaganda for the Nation.

To say sport is not about and shouldn't involve politics is to say the South African WC winning Rugby team handing the cup to Mandela wasn't a profoundly political moment.

i think for most though that Mandela's acceptance of the cup whilst obviously political transcended that and was an essentially unifying human symbol.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Cyril on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:14 pm

Gwlad wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:nothing worse than those who would politicize sport. Sport is sport, the Ancient Olympics was an intermission of war between the ancient states of what we know as Greece. We've seen how politics has tainted that great institution. Is nothing sacred or do the cynics have to destroy every aspect of our cultural raison d'être.

Counting National Medal hauls, and comparing them with the medal hauls of other political entities - i.e. the UK feverishly interested in their medal haul at the last few Olympics and injecting millions into virtual military campaigns to collect as many of them as they can and indeed go above the number of the nearest rivals USA, Germany, China etc... is a political act.  Governments fund sport because it is a vehicle that promotes the Nation, business interests in the Nation and propaganda for the Nation.

To say sport is not about and shouldn't involve politics is to say the South African WC winning Rugby team handing the cup to Mandela wasn't a profoundly political moment.

i think for most though that Mandela's acceptance of the cup whilst obviously political transcended that and was an essentially unifying human symbol.
Similarly when Sir Jonny slotted that drop-goal in 2003 and united the world in joyful celebration.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by ChequeredJersey on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:14 pm

Cyril wrote:I think it's true though (as the Irish are saying on here) that they don't feel particularly one with Great Britain. Just because you're geographically close (or even joined in landmass) doesn't mean you feel kinship or any real sense of fellowship. Sometimes it's the opposite.

I remember a Welshman saying to me he felt more in common with the French than the English. Mind you, he only washed once a week.

From my experience, which may be biased due to my profession and the fact that I have Irish family and the fact that my girlfriend is (mostly) Irish, that has not been true. The 2 countries are linked far more than either is with any other Nation, both culturally and practically. This may be untrue and may be massively opposed by others including some here, but it is certainly my experience without a doubt
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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by SecretFly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:17 pm

Don't get me wrong.  I like all you guys.  I like the English (the ones that voted for Brexit anyway Whistle Wink)  No seriously, I like the English.... the Scots.... the frustrating arguing Welsh Wink  - but in the same way that I like New Zealanders, Aussies, and yes, normal Americans..... and Italians....

..and Georgians, though I don't personally know many of them Whistle

Anyway, I like you boys over there - as friends.  I don't think you have to feel 'family' with neighbours to have great relations with neighbours.  I don't see the need for any sense of respect and companionship and camaraderie to require the word 'family'.  We're friends.  We represent ourselves but go for a pint together and maybe a game of rugby every four years................... if we're picked Wink

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by SecretFly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:19 pm

Gwlad wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:nothing worse than those who would politicize sport. Sport is sport, the Ancient Olympics was an intermission of war between the ancient states of what we know as Greece. We've seen how politics has tainted that great institution. Is nothing sacred or do the cynics have to destroy every aspect of our cultural raison d'être.

Counting National Medal hauls, and comparing them with the medal hauls of other political entities - i.e. the UK feverishly interested in their medal haul at the last few Olympics and injecting millions into virtual military campaigns to collect as many of them as they can and indeed go above the number of the nearest rivals USA, Germany, China etc... is a political act.  Governments fund sport because it is a vehicle that promotes the Nation, business interests in the Nation and propaganda for the Nation.

To say sport is not about and shouldn't involve politics is to say the South African WC winning Rugby team handing the cup to Mandela wasn't a profoundly political moment.

i think for most though that Mandela's acceptance of the cup whilst obviously political transcended that and was an essentially unifying human symbol.

But it was politics. It represented the history of the Nation at a major turning point. Politics can be beautiful. It isn't always bad.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Cyril on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:19 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Cyril wrote:I think it's true though (as the Irish are saying on here) that they don't feel particularly one with Great Britain. Just because you're geographically close (or even joined in landmass) doesn't mean you feel kinship or any real sense of fellowship. Sometimes it's the opposite.

I remember a Welshman saying to me he felt more in common with the French than the English. Mind you, he only washed once a week.

From my experience, which may be biased due to my profession and the fact that I have Irish family and the fact that my girlfriend is (mostly) Irish, that has not been true. The 2 countries are linked far more than either is with any other Nation, both culturally and practically. This may be untrue and may be massively opposed by others including some here, but it is certainly my experience without a doubt
Perhaps the Irish on here maintain are just blowing smoke then Smile

In the 'real world' I find it to be fairly mixed. Some Irish see themselves as part of a 'Britain and Ireland' and others as very much apart. Quite a few Irish in my experience feel a closer affinity to America.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Griff on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:19 pm

There's a ferry that goes from Wales to Ireland. Does Wales have one to France or Spain? Do we f***. The ties are there men, the ties are there Wink

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by SecretFly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:23 pm

Griff wrote:There's a ferry that goes from Wales to Ireland. Does Wales have one to France or Spain? Do we f***.  The ties are there men, the ties are there Wink

We keep trying to build a wall to keep that fecking ferry out but the Welsh just keep knocking the built bits every night.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Griff on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:26 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:nothing worse than those who would politicize sport. Sport is sport, the Ancient Olympics was an intermission of war between the ancient states of what we know as Greece. We've seen how politics has tainted that great institution. Is nothing sacred or do the cynics have to destroy every aspect of our cultural raison d'être.

Counting National Medal hauls, and comparing them with the medal hauls of other political entities - i.e. the UK feverishly interested in their medal haul at the last few Olympics and injecting millions into virtual military campaigns to collect as many of them as they can and indeed go above the number of the nearest rivals USA, Germany, China etc... is a political act.  Governments fund sport because it is a vehicle that promotes the Nation, business interests in the Nation and propaganda for the Nation.

To say sport is not about and shouldn't involve politics is to say the South African WC winning Rugby team handing the cup to Mandela wasn't a profoundly political moment.

i think for most though that Mandela's acceptance of the cup whilst obviously political transcended that and was an essentially unifying human symbol.

But it was politics.  It represented the history of the Nation at a major turning point.  Politics can be beautiful.  It isn't always bad.

I always saw the SA World Cup win and the rugby v apartheid thing as sport transcending politics, rather than being of it. I feel the same sort of thing for the Lions. I feel that way for a lot of sport, like when you see Olympians from nations at war with each other hugging at the end of the event, or the Olympic team picked solely from refugees at the last Olympics. Sure, sport is often politicised. But for me it's the thing that you can lay down your guns for and simply play a game and forget the bloodshed for an hour or two.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by B91212 on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:26 pm

This probably won’t go down well on here but to me the Lions today mean a purely commercial enterprise at the expense of the national side and national league I support. I loved the concept back in the days of amateurism but sadly just do not feel it is viable any longer in the professional game and would honestly rather it was consigned to history. I love the theory and romanticism behind them but feel the modern game has moved on too much. Unfortunately it won’t change unless players start opting not to tour citing welfare concerns and that won't happen. Will probably still watch the games cheering them on whilst wishing it wasn't happening.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by ChequeredJersey on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:27 pm

Griff wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:nothing worse than those who would politicize sport. Sport is sport, the Ancient Olympics was an intermission of war between the ancient states of what we know as Greece. We've seen how politics has tainted that great institution. Is nothing sacred or do the cynics have to destroy every aspect of our cultural raison d'être.

Counting National Medal hauls, and comparing them with the medal hauls of other political entities - i.e. the UK feverishly interested in their medal haul at the last few Olympics and injecting millions into virtual military campaigns to collect as many of them as they can and indeed go above the number of the nearest rivals USA, Germany, China etc... is a political act.  Governments fund sport because it is a vehicle that promotes the Nation, business interests in the Nation and propaganda for the Nation.

To say sport is not about and shouldn't involve politics is to say the South African WC winning Rugby team handing the cup to Mandela wasn't a profoundly political moment.

i think for most though that Mandela's acceptance of the cup whilst obviously political transcended that and was an essentially unifying human symbol.

But it was politics.  It represented the history of the Nation at a major turning point.  Politics can be beautiful.  It isn't always bad.

I always saw the SA World Cup win and the rugby v apartheid thing as sport transcending politics, rather than being of it. I feel the same sort of thing for the Lions. I feel that way for a lot of sport, like when you see Olympians from nations at war with each other hugging at the end of the event, or the Olympic team picked solely from refugees at the last Olympics. Sure, sport is often politicised. But for me it's the thing that you can lay down your guns for and simply play a game and forget the bloodshed for an hour or two.
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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Griff on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:29 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Griff wrote:There's a ferry that goes from Wales to Ireland. Does Wales have one to France or Spain? Do we f***.  The ties are there men, the ties are there Wink

We keep trying to build a wall to keep that fecking ferry out but the Welsh just keep knocking the built bits every night.    

Lots of pesky Irish folk making use of gaps in the wall then! Every day on the way home from work (so west to east on the m4) I'm struck by the number of IRL number plates I see. You're all gagging for it!

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by SecretFly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:30 pm

Griff wrote: But for me it's the thing that you can lay down your guns for and simply play a game and forget the bloodshed for an hour or two.

Yes, it's a substitute for war - at a National/International level anyway. Play a game and feel good if you win rather than having to go to war like the auld tribal ancestors did. Politics Wink

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Gwlad on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:33 pm

Griff wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Gwlad wrote:nothing worse than those who would politicize sport. Sport is sport, the Ancient Olympics was an intermission of war between the ancient states of what we know as Greece. We've seen how politics has tainted that great institution. Is nothing sacred or do the cynics have to destroy every aspect of our cultural raison d'être.

Counting National Medal hauls, and comparing them with the medal hauls of other political entities - i.e. the UK feverishly interested in their medal haul at the last few Olympics and injecting millions into virtual military campaigns to collect as many of them as they can and indeed go above the number of the nearest rivals USA, Germany, China etc... is a political act.  Governments fund sport because it is a vehicle that promotes the Nation, business interests in the Nation and propaganda for the Nation.

To say sport is not about and shouldn't involve politics is to say the South African WC winning Rugby team handing the cup to Mandela wasn't a profoundly political moment.

i think for most though that Mandela's acceptance of the cup whilst obviously political transcended that and was an essentially unifying human symbol.

But it was politics.  It represented the history of the Nation at a major turning point.  Politics can be beautiful.  It isn't always bad.

I always saw the SA World Cup win and the rugby v apartheid thing as sport transcending politics, rather than being of it. I feel the same sort of thing for the Lions. I feel that way for a lot of sport, like when you see Olympians from nations at war with each other hugging at the end of the event, or the Olympic team picked solely from refugees at the last Olympics. Sure, sport is often politicised. But for me it's the thing that you can lay down your guns for and simply play a game and forget the bloodshed for an hour or two.

And there lies its eternal appeal. still doing exactly what it said on the tin back in the day of the Ancient Olympiad when athletes met to compare war fighting skills and states suspended war during the games. Its what we all need more of, more sport less politics. THough the main difference is pro sport, that has changed it all for the worse.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by SecretFly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:33 pm

Griff wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Griff wrote:There's a ferry that goes from Wales to Ireland. Does Wales have one to France or Spain? Do we f***.  The ties are there men, the ties are there Wink

We keep trying to build a wall to keep that fecking ferry out but the Welsh just keep knocking the built bits every night.    

Lots of pesky Irish folk making use of gaps in the wall then! Every day on the way home from work (so west to east on the m4) I'm struck by the number of IRL number plates I see. You're all gagging for it!

Ain't half as big a number as the surge in folks looking for Irish Passports recently Whistle Besides, most Irish cars going through Wales are on their way to the Channel Tunnel and into the bosom of their Dear Leader Angela Merkel. They only feel protected from everything when Angela pats them on the head Wink

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Gwlad on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:37 pm

In fact if you look at organized sport's origins in the Olympics you can see it was held as the antithesis to politics. Lets face it 'athletes' in antiquity were likely chucking lances at each other on Monday and chucking javelins with each other by Friday. So the origins of sport lie in war and the origins of war are politics. And it goes on, Aussie nearly invaded Lords during Bodyline.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Griff on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:39 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Griff wrote: But for me it's the thing that you can lay down your guns for and simply play a game and forget the bloodshed for an hour or two.

Yes, it's a substitute for war - at a National/International level anyway.  Play a game and feel good if you win rather than having to go to war like the auld tribal ancestors did.  Politics Wink

A bit tongue in cheek here (but also maybe not Wink ), but why do the Irish join in the sporting war with the 'Brits' against the colonies if they don't want to be associated with the auld ways and ties? Is it just the NI bit of the IRFU that drags you in? I know it's one of those 'just a matter of time' comments that come up on these threads but I'm genuinely interested? There's English, Welsh and Scots who either do or don't want to see the Lions continue, but is the Irish feeling more towards the disbandment of it entirely, or would they just prefer the Irish part was left out and the other 3 nations just carried on if they wanted to?

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Cyril on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:41 pm

The Irish anti-Lions feeling only seemed to kick in after BOD-Gate (or at least during that tour). I didn't notice it in 2009 or earlier.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Pot Hale on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:54 pm

Griff wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Griff wrote: But for me it's the thing that you can lay down your guns for and simply play a game and forget the bloodshed for an hour or two.

Yes, it's a substitute for war - at a National/International level anyway.  Play a game and feel good if you win rather than having to go to war like the auld tribal ancestors did.  Politics Wink

A bit tongue in cheek here (but also maybe not Wink ), but why do the Irish join in the sporting war with the 'Brits' against the colonies if they don't want to be associated with the auld ways and ties? Is it just the NI bit of the IRFU that drags you in? I know it's one of those 'just a matter of time' comments that come up on these threads but I'm genuinely interested? There's English, Welsh and Scots who either do or don't want to see the Lions continue, but is the Irish feeling more towards the disbandment of it entirely, or would they just prefer the Irish part was left out and the other 3 nations just carried on if they wanted to?

Tradition dear boy. Tradition. I don't think it's a disassociation from old ways and ties rather than an assertion of separate identity. Hence the inevitable and eventual change from British Lions to British and Irish Lions and not playing the British national anthem before games. It only took 70 odd years for this to happen - the British move slowly on these things. Just imagine what the tours will be like in 70 years from now - flared underpants and probably long hair will be back in fashion.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Cyril on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:57 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Griff wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Griff wrote: But for me it's the thing that you can lay down your guns for and simply play a game and forget the bloodshed for an hour or two.

Yes, it's a substitute for war - at a National/International level anyway.  Play a game and feel good if you win rather than having to go to war like the auld tribal ancestors did.  Politics Wink

A bit tongue in cheek here (but also maybe not Wink ), but why do the Irish join in the sporting war with the 'Brits' against the colonies if they don't want to be associated with the auld ways and ties? Is it just the NI bit of the IRFU that drags you in? I know it's one of those 'just a matter of time' comments that come up on these threads but I'm genuinely interested? There's English, Welsh and Scots who either do or don't want to see the Lions continue, but is the Irish feeling more towards the disbandment of it entirely, or would they just prefer the Irish part was left out and the other 3 nations just carried on if they wanted to?

Tradition dear boy. Tradition.  I don't think it's a disassociation from old ways and ties rather than an assertion of separate identity.  Hence the inevitable and eventual change from British Lions to British and Irish Lions and not playing the British national anthem before games.  It only took 70 odd years for this to happen - the British move slowly on these things.  Just imagine what the tours will be like in 70 years from now - flared underpants and probably long hair will be back in fashion.  

Perhaps the Irish will get down to one anthem sometime soon. One team one anthem. I've got things I need to do Smile

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by SecretFly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:58 pm

Griff wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Griff wrote: But for me it's the thing that you can lay down your guns for and simply play a game and forget the bloodshed for an hour or two.

Yes, it's a substitute for war - at a National/International level anyway.  Play a game and feel good if you win rather than having to go to war like the auld tribal ancestors did.  Politics Wink

A bit tongue in cheek here (but also maybe not Wink ), but why do the Irish join in the sporting war with the 'Brits' against the colonies if they don't want to be associated with the auld ways and ties? Is it just the NI bit of the IRFU that drags you in? I know it's one of those 'just a matter of time' comments that come up on these threads but I'm genuinely interested? There's English, Welsh and Scots who either do or don't want to see the Lions continue, but is the Irish feeling more towards the disbandment of it entirely, or would they just prefer the Irish part was left out and the other 3 nations just carried on if they wanted to?

The Irish didn't join though.  Semantics need to be pushed because it gets back to having to deal with history - in that choosing to ignore the history allows people to ask such a question, Griff.  We didn't join - we were always a part of - because we were a colony ourselves but because of the proximity to the Home of the Empire, we were just fully assimilated.  We didn't join - it's simply that it's never been an urgent desire on our part (the Rep of Ireland bit - always have to be respectful that we're talking about two Irelands here) to now leave.  So I think your question should really be: "why aren't the Irish leaving if...." 

If many love the idea and tradition - so be it.  Let's not start a war trying to get out of it.  Cool  

But it only requires that people are sensitive (and they mostly are to be honest) to the truth that the Lions don't represent a single entity - they represent two entities.  One British and one Irish.  The Welsh and Scots and English, and Northern Irish people who like the Union, enjoy being British when the Olympics and other things come by.  That's grand.  That British bit though is meaningless to me in that sense so it's nice that in the interests of mutual respect people accept that The Lions in the modern world is a Friendship rather than a Union.  It's two neighbours going on tour every four years.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by SecretFly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:00 pm

Cyril wrote:

Perhaps the Irish will get down to one anthem sometime soon. One team one anthem. I've got things I need to do Smile[/quote]

The UK have a combined four... if you include the blasted Ireland's Call. Wink

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Cyril on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:09 pm

I like Ireland's Call in a weird kind of way. It's very Eurovision.

It's better than the other Irish anthem anyway. That's just bad.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by SecretFly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:16 pm

Cyril wrote:I like Ireland's Call in a weird kind of way. It's very Eurovision.

It's better than the other Irish anthem anyway. That's just bad.

Ah well, glad someone likes it - Phil didn't waste his time after all.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Cyril on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:18 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Cyril wrote:I like Ireland's Call in a weird kind of way. It's very Eurovision.

It's better than the other Irish anthem anyway. That's just bad.

Ah well, glad someone likes it - Phil didn't waste his time after all.
Some of the players belt it out too. He's got an audience.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by SecretFly on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:40 pm

Some do, some don't. I don't think, from memory, that the best hooker in the World sings either. Wink

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Cyril on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:57 pm

George has a good singing voice. He'll sing anything. Mr Coles will bring in his lyrics on a silver platter  music music music music

PS If Beshocked is listening, replace George with Hartley Wink

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by carpet baboon on Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:36 am

SecretFly wrote:Some do, some don't.  I don't think, from memory, that the best hooker in the World sings either.  Wink

Have to say I have an odd fascination in watching the Irish team at anthem time. Who will sing what? Which ones sing at all? Do they belt one out and lip sync the other? The lads who have qualified through residency do they sing at all?
It's such an exciting time.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Gooseberry on Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:38 am

carpet baboon wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Some do, some don't.  I don't think, from memory, that the best hooker in the World sings either.  Wink

Have to say I have an odd fascination in watching the Irish team at anthem time. Who will sing what? Which ones sing at all? Do they belt one out and lip sync the other? The lads who have qualified through residency do they sing at all?
It's such an exciting time.

And you get all the excitement of where the crapet is prior to that. Its so much better than all this silly dancing the British New Zealand All Blacks do.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Gooseberry on Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:39 am

SecretFly wrote: the best hooker in the World sings either.  Wink

Charlotte Church?

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:08 am

Cyril wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
Cyril wrote:I think it's true though (as the Irish are saying on here) that they don't feel particularly one with Great Britain. Just because you're geographically close (or even joined in landmass) doesn't mean you feel kinship or any real sense of fellowship. Sometimes it's the opposite.

I remember a Welshman saying to me he felt more in common with the French than the English. Mind you, he only washed once a week.

From my experience, which may be biased due to my profession and the fact that I have Irish family and the fact that my girlfriend is (mostly) Irish, that has not been true. The 2 countries are linked far more than either is with any other Nation, both culturally and practically. This may be untrue and may be massively opposed by others including some here, but it is certainly my experience without a doubt
Perhaps the Irish on here maintain are just blowing smoke then Smile

In the 'real world' I find it to be fairly mixed. Some Irish see themselves as part of a 'Britain and Ireland' and others as very much apart. Quite a few Irish in my experience feel a closer affinity to America.

I think it is ok to embrace the similarities and ties while also celebrating the differences. Like a lot of Irish people I have English family and I feel very close to them. It was a very proud day for my greater family last week as my cousin Claire was awarded an MBE by the queen in Buckingham palace. She is English so it meant a lot to her and therefore a lot to her family.

To one of my Irish cousins or even me an MBE would be completely meaningless.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by cascough on Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:07 am

I personally think the geographical term "The British Isles" is most accurate here. Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man for instance technically aren't part of Great Britain and as such a Rugby player born there is not bound to any particular country when it comes to his Rugby. This makes it possible for a player to play for the Lions having not represented any of those countries/unions and have been born in a country outside of Great Britain and Ireland. Although, professionalism has pretty much killed any chance of this actually happening off of course.

This thread is deviating slightly to a discussion between the Irish as to what term they do/don't like and how associated with the rest of the the population that represent the lions they feel. (Still an interesting discussion but not really what I set out to find out)

So, to try and focus the debate again...using whatever term you feel comfortable with, are the Lions representing that body of people or are they representing the country you feel associated with whilst playing for the Lions? Would love to hear from a few more Scots.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:10 am

Its pretty obvious you worded the OP to be provocative because you went to pains to specifically point out Ireland is part of the British isles. Not sure why you would pretend otherwise, seems strange to me.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by Gooseberry on Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:11 am

Shoudln't we rebrand them the Lions Isles?


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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by cascough on Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:23 am

Guns, I think you're trying really hard to be offended here.

Like I just said in my last post, I want to know if you support the Lions as a separate entity or as an extension of another entity.

I've raised this thread after discussions with a Scot and it has nothing to do with the Irish and which geographical terms they don't like. I'll thank you for taking that at face value and not trying to insinuate I'm saying something else.

If you don't wish to comment on the question I've actually asked, you could always leave the thread alone.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:49 am

Why is it someone always wants to discuss the subject of offence? It seems to be the flavour of the week at the moment. Very unoriginal.

Im not offended at all in any case. I do think you are being dishonest though for some reason. I write articles all the time to be provocative no problem admitting it.

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2017/02/20/irelands-last-wind-up-merchant-closes-its-doors-after-140-years/

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by cascough on Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:54 am

Offended or not, if you could actually just answer the question I'm posing, instead of trying to make it into something else, that would be great.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:03 am

cascough wrote:Offended or not, if you could actually just answer the question I'm posing, instead of trying to make it into something else, that would be great.

I have, you made it into something else yourself. Stop pretending you weren't trying to be provocative.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by cascough on Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:15 am

I didn't think you had, so I re-read the thread. You haven't. If you could be so kind as to respond with A, B or C.

A)You support the Lions as a separate entity

B)You support the Lions as an extension of another entity (in your case, Ireland)

C)You don't support the Lions


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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:51 am

cascough wrote:I didn't think you had, so I re-read the thread. You haven't. If you could be so kind as to respond with A, B or C.

A)You support the Lions as a separate entity

B)You support the Lions as an extension of another entity (in your case, Ireland)

C)You don't support the Lions


A. I do support the Lions 100% however, as I mentioned before at this point I hope that there aren't too many Irish players selected as I think the length of the tour and the probability of injuries can shorten their careers.

I am a fan of lots of British players such as Russell, Hogg, Dan Biggar, AWJ and Robshaw so no issue with supporting the Lions.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by SecretFly on Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:22 pm

cascough wrote:I didn't think you had, so I re-read the thread. You haven't. If you could be so kind as to respond with A, B or C.

A)You support the Lions as a separate entity

B)You support the Lions as an extension of another entity (in your case, Ireland)

C)You don't support the Lions


But I think you avoid a "D)" cascough

D) Do you support the Lions as a rugby version of Team GB?  

After all, Great Britain is an Island - correct.  But Team GB represents the entire UK, of which Northern Ireland is part but exists on a different island.  And yet explicitly, that other island doesn't get into the abbreviated and heavily marketed 'Team GB' title.  
Therefore, in this context, the Great British island is considered enough of a symbol to also represent inhabitants and competitors from a different island.  Why not 'Team UK'?

So its already proven that the term British/Britain/Britishness are words that slide around in an indistinct way and that they often ignore their full political meaning and/or they often casually claim to represent territory that isn't 'British'. Wink

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

Post by cascough on Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:27 pm

I think that's a different discussion entirely.

I just want to know how many people only support the lions as an extension of their own country, rather than in it's own right. And that question can be asked regardless of whatever label you want to apply to the Lions.

It was surprising for me to learn that this is as widespread as it is, and quite disappointing to be honest.

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Re: Who does the Lions represent for you?

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