England vs Italy

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England vs Italy

Post by nathan on Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

28 players that have been kept.

Forwards (16): Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs (12): Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath), Jonathan Joseph (Bath), Jonny May (Gloucester), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by beshocked on Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:43 am

Interesting that quite a few players who had good AIs like Joseph, Youngs, Ford and May just haven't brought that form to the 6 nations.

I think it's good that in most positions Jones is willing to drop players not performing.

Though saying that Jones needs to work out where he wants Daly to settle.

Gooseberry wouldn't say May deserves a place based on his performances in the 6 nations which in general are poor. I am not talking just about the first game. For some reason he seems to struggle in the competition. He was good in the AIs but 6 nations for whatever reason doesn't seem to gel with him.

Perhaps he will be the first player to become a perfect example of the term - AIs specialist.... Laugh

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Gooseberry on Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:50 am

beshocked wrote:Interesting that quite a few players who had good AIs like Joseph, Youngs, Ford and May just haven't brought that form to the 6 nations.

I think it's good that in most positions Jones is willing to drop players not performing.

Though saying that Jones needs to work out where he wants Daly to settle.

Gooseberry wouldn't say May deserves a place based on his performances in the 6 nations which in general are poor. I am not talking just about the first game. For some reason he seems to struggle in the competition. He was good in the AIs but 6 nations for whatever reason doesn't seem to gel with him.

Perhaps he will be the first player to become a perfect example of the term - AIs specialist....  Laugh

At least he didnt break his nose Rolling Eyes

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:58 am

As a serious point May has had the France game where everyone played poorly bar a couple and then a short run out. Not sure what people expect? He's not Solomona. Given the changes starting to occur in the England team I just wonder what more Lozowski and Tompkins have to do to get some game time?

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by propdavid_london on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:02 am

Is Tompkins a realistic contender!
I agree that May would benefit from another run - and could be accommodated with Daly moving to 13.
Watson perhaps appearing off the bench.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by majesticimperialman on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:07 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:As a serious point May has had the France game where everyone played poorly bar a couple and then a short run out. Not sure what people expect? He's not Solomona. Given the changes starting to occur in the England team I just wonder what more Lozowski and Tompkins have to do to get some game time?


They will may be have to wait for the summer tour.

I am sure that with a good part of England being away on the Lions tour. Eddie Jones will be blooding some new talent.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by beshocked on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:15 am

No 7 & 1/2 the problem is May has struggled in the 6 nations in general. I don't know why.

I acknowledged he had a good AIs but he needs to back it up. Having 3-4 good games doesn't mean a player can rest on their laurels, especially when they struggle with an entire competition like the 6 nations...

I can't say I've ever seen May have a good game in the competition.

Joseph has paid the price of a lethargic start to the 6 nations and he has more credit in the bank.

propdavid London I think Tompkins and Lozowski both have more to do before being international contenders. I talk about players needing to prove themselves and they are no different.

You say May needs another run but with Nowell and Watson now fit surely May is surplus to requirements?

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:21 am

What more do you want from him? I just threw hose 2 in as it'll be the next AIS before we'll be moving past George onto the next Saracens. They're my calls for your calls!

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Cyril on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:22 am

beshocked wrote:You say May needs another run but with Nowell and Watson now fit surely May is surplus to requirements?
Watson could well be on the bench on Sunday. He also might come on as full back if Jones thinks it's a good time to try him there. In that case (and Daly plays 13) then it will be Nowell and May on the wings to start.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:27 am

He could throw a curve ball and have Farrell at 10 te'o 12 Slade at 13 and drop Daly to 15. Huge amount of changes though.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by beshocked on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:27 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:What more do you want from him? I just threw hose 2 in as it'll be the next AIS before we'll be moving past George onto the next Saracens.  They're my calls for your calls!

Why would I want players in the team who aren't ready yet? Makes no sense. I only champion players I think are ready.

No I don't think Earle should be on the wing either. It would be ridiculous. Saracens players need to prove themselves too.

Spencer needs to step up if he wants to get in the England squad too.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:31 am

What more do you want from May?

Just my predictions at the next 2 beshocked. There's always at least 1. By then you could well be saying they've won the prem and European cup.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by beshocked on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:42 am

I actually want May to play well in the 6 nations. 2016 AIs was a good start, now he has to kick on.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:44 am

So its a simple question. What do you want to see from him? Flip it if you'd prefer, where is he going wrong this 6Ns where he was going right in the AIs ?

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by beshocked on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:58 am

He was playing well in the AIs... He was not making mistakes, his workrate was much higher. He just was much better, oh and he didn't get sin binned. Generally it's poor technique which leads to it.

I wouldn't say May is an ill disciplined player.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Gooseberry on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:59 am

Cyril wrote:
beshocked wrote:You say May needs another run but with Nowell and Watson now fit surely May is surplus to requirements?
Watson could well be on the bench on Sunday. He also might come on as full back if Jones thinks it's a good time to try him there. In that case (and Daly plays 13) then it will be Nowell and May on the wings to start.

Right May couldve been suprlus if Jospeh hadnt been dropped. On the assumption this means Daly at 13 there needs to be another on the bench ...and that means spaces for Brown, May, Nowell, Daly and Watson in the matchday 23.

So he isnt surplus. He may not get a start though yes.

But equally likely is that Watson wuill start from the bench and be eased back in.

Whether this remains a long term thing waits to be seen. Personaly I prefer Daly in the back 3 but lest see how this goes.

Joseph was the star last year, and his exclussion now surely wont be the end of him but does show the depth of options they have available...and just how much Jones loves Daly. Whetehr he returns for the following round or not may be determined by how things go here, and whther Dalys future really is in the centers or not.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:02 am

So the quite harsh but technically correct yellow. And lesser work rate than when he was having to cover both wings. You're far to harsh on players sometimes beshocked. Constantly look for faults in May since he came in with Nowell for the dropped Ashton.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by beshocked on Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:22 am

It's not harsh. Wing is competitive. May still has a lot to prove - a good AIs was a good start but needs to build on it.

Ashton is old news. He's not helped himself with the stupid bans either. Jones might have recalled him if it weren't for them.

I know you like to sing May's praises but aside from the good AIs I've not been impressed by him.

My opinion isn't set in stone. Teo has changed my mind, Nowell has won me over, Haskell has transformed into a consistent and very key member of the England side.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:26 am

It is harsh when you're so vague in what he's doing wrong.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Gooseberry on Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:55 am

You two really like arguing over the shape of spoons dont you?

Lok we all have our favourites and a bit of bias in looking at them, and their rivals. And yes Beshocked has form on hating May (nosegate!)
And yes its silly to cite the very unlucky yellow when Daly is golden boy despite Argentina.

...but in a situation where theres so many legitimate options in the positions he plays its not always a players fault that he loses his place. Mako/Marler is another ... they both could start and people will argue the case for their favourite....if Mako loses his starting spot its not through being bad, just more better options available.

Of the wings Nowell and May have been battling out for places. It doesnt take any great slating of May to say that Nowells perhaps marginaly ahead ..and importnatly adds a bit more variety if you have Daly at 13 and Watson on the other wing ...a slightly more "robust" option.

Theres still very chance though that Watson will start form the bench and this argument gets rendered redundant anyway.

But I guess that wont stop the repetitive point counter pointgoign over the same ground and disgareeing for the sake of it.


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Re: England vs Italy

Post by SecretFly on Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:58 am

Goose stop it! I warned you before about being reasonable and logical. I'll have to report you if you persist.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by beshocked on Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:20 am

Gooseberry when May plays well I have complimented him. Unfortunately he's not done it enough.

Slightly different with Mako and Marler because both have been much more consistently better than May.

Daly has put his howler vs Argentina behind him and I am thankful for that. He's started well.

I generally criticise players performing badly and praise players doing well, what's wrong with that?

I think it's better than praising players playing badly.




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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:51 am

Ha. Wouldn't stop me no gooseberry.

I agree with you we have quite a few options of similar quality on a fair few places hence why I have to keep asking for real reasons behind some posters thoughts.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Gooseberry on Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:53 am

Ill admnit their scrummaging has been better than his but Mays pace on the wing is a bit better.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by robbo277 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:21 am

I guess Jones' squad really does leave his options open. With Farrell, Slade, Daly and Watson in the backs, he has a lot of permutations to play around with.

With Haskell also likely to start, the question is whether he comes in for Clifford or a lock, and in theory any one of the four could drop out from that one change.

You've also got questions over the front row, with all 3 starting shirts up for grabs.

It makes the debate interesting, until you consider that any reasonable permutation of the 23 players should beat Italy comfortably, then the whole thing becomes a bit meaningless.

For me the real thing is picking the team with a view to who's playing Scotland. Not the team we'd pick if it's Scotland this weekend, but what system do we want to play and who do we want to look at?

If he goes Farrell, Te'o and Daly and it fails (not even necessarily loses) against Italy, does he try it again against Scotland? And how does he pinpoint the fault? To correct it he could bring in Ford for Farrell or Te'o or bring in Joseph for Daly or Te'o. Or some new permutation involving Slade. Can Jones deal with that many variables at once?

For me, I'd like to see Ford, Farrell and Daly start at 10, 12, 13, with Te'o on the bench. He can then assess Daly in that formation, and switch Te'o in early in the second half and have a look at that as well.

With the back 3, if Brown is the guy for the rest of the Championship, he should start him again and try to sort his wing combination.

I initially thought about Daly at 15 with a view to switching him in there for the remainder of the tournament with Brown on the bench, but I'm not sold on any of the midfield options with Daly in the 15 shirt now.

Basically, we can have a bit of an experiment, but the experiments should only be with a view to changing things for the Scotland game. If it's an experiment you're pretty certain you're going to ditch afterwards regardless of how it goes, save it for the summer.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by propdavid_london on Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:52 am

Who is best on the wing to deal with Campangaro? For me he is quite a dangerous weapon for Italy - if they can get the ball to him!
Nowell should know him quite well....

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Gooseberry on Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:56 am

Nowell is the most physical of the wingers for sure. So if they want someone whos going to smash him up a bit then hes the neraest we have.

But as Robbo alluded to changes made shouldnt be just about this game, but looking ahead to whos best placed to face the serious competition.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by BamBam on Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:02 am

Isn't Campagnaro playing 13?

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Gooseberry on Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:46 am

Well if he is Dalys the winger to deal with him Wink

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Armchairexpert on Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:15 am

I haven't seen enough of Te'o to know if he is quick enough or defensively aware enough to play 13 but if he is a centre pairing of him and Slade interchanging could give the best of both worlds, Ii.e. bosh and play maker. The press seem to have Daly at 13 but I'd love to see him at 15 and hear speaks a Brown fan.

The advantage of Daly at 13 I guess is he can swap with Nowell and have two speedsters out wide but I'd still like to see the former option

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Rugby Fan on Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:23 pm

Interesting piece by Austin Healey. He thinks Joseph has been quiet because Billy Vunipola isn't playing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/02/23/england-suffer-billy-vunipola-not-around-jonathan-joseph-particular/

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by lostinwales on Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:43 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Interesting piece by Austin Healey. He thinks Joseph has been quiet because Billy Vunipola isn't playing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/02/23/england-suffer-billy-vunipola-not-around-jonathan-joseph-particular/

Interesting article. They also have a 'probable' England team. Nowell and May on the wing. (snigger...)

England (probable):M Brown; J Nowell, E Daly, B Te’o, J May; O Farrell, D Care; J Marler, D Hartley, D Cole, J Launchbury, C Lawes, M Itoje, J Haskell, N Hughes.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:17 am

Well any combo of that squad should be getting the bonus point and then looking at points scored. I've felt that before when we've struggled but this squad is now as strong as we've seen for a good long while.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Poorfour on Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:02 am

Evening Standard was predicting the same except with Itoje on the bench and Clifford on the flank with Haskell

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Gooseberry on Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:42 am

Its a lot of changes in the backs, none of them individualy massively controversial although we could all argue apples and pears over individuals. Noone can say hes not giving players opportunities to challenge for long term starter spots or afraid to hide behind the "dont change a winning team" forumla.
(Unless youre Beshocked and will zone in on George/Hartley again because you ahvent bored peopel enough with that topic)


Bench Watson Ford Youngs?

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by kingelderfield on Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:45 am

If we're going to play Farrell without Ford, then we'll need more eyes and hands from the 15 position.

Therefore drop Brown for Slade.

May is still to convince me with his lack of rugby skills and mental focus. Don't be fooled if he runs away with an easy 'pacy' hatrick. Somebody needs to get in his head.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by robbo277 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:00 am



Team announcement from @EnglandRugby Twitter.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:03 am

Going to stop trying second guessing Jones.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by robbo277 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:05 am

Four personnel changes and no positional swaps then. The 9s swap round with Care starting, Te'o in for Joseph at 13, May swapping back into the starting line-up for Nowell and Haskell in at 7 for Clifford, who drops to the bench.

Interesting call-up for Slade on the bench as well, replacing Joseph, along with Mako on the bench as expected for Mullan, as the only new faces in the 23. Watson doesn't make the squad.

Some may feel it's an opportunity missed to have a look at someone else at 2, 3 or 15, but as I said before the announcement, if it's not a change Eddie would stick with for the Scotland game, it's not a change worth making today.


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Re: England vs Italy

Post by BamBam on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:05 am

I'm almost a bit disappointed that we're not seeing the Farrell - Teo - Daly midfield, hopefully it gets 30 mins when the game is won

I can see the logic .. get our two (fully fit) out and out burners on the wing, Teo blast the holes to bring the defence narrower and two distributors to get the wings the ball

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by robbo277 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:10 am

BamBam wrote:I'm almost a bit disappointed that we're not seeing the Farrell - Teo - Daly midfield, hopefully it gets 30 mins when the game is won

I can see the logic .. get our two (fully fit) out and out burners on the wing, Teo blast the holes to bring the defence narrower and two distributors to get the wings the ball

I wonder if Jones likes Daly at all at 13. He was obviously keen enough to put him there for the South Africa game, but then took him out immediately and now, despite dropping Joseph, hasn't looked for Daly to have another go. Did he not like what he saw?

It will be interesting to see the back subs he makes, as it might give as an idea of where he sees people playing long-term. For example he could take off Farrell and Brown and bring on Slade and Nowell, shift Nowell onto the wing and then put one of Slade and Daly in at centre and the other at full back. His move at that stage could say a lot about his plans for the next year.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by cascough on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:14 am

Don't think we will see that Bam Bam. That would suggest Slade doesn't make it onto the pitch.

I personally think this team makes a lot of sense. Jones said he wants "to take Italy to the cleaners". He didn't say he wants to experiment. 4 Personnel changes will let him have a little look at some individuals whilst keeping some continuity, in the system especially.

He can experiment in Argentina. For now, this is simply another step towards the grand slam.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by BamBam on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:16 am

Forgot about Slade, yeah you're probably right

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by robbo277 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:18 am

cascough wrote:Don't think we will see that Bam Bam. That would suggest Slade doesn't make it onto the pitch.

I personally think this team makes a lot of sense. Jones said he wants "to take Italy to the cleaners". He didn't say he wants to experiment. 4 Personnel changes will let him have a little look at some individuals whilst keeping some continuity, in the system especially.

He can experiment in Argentina. For now, this is simply another step towards the grand slam.

Slade came on at fullback against Argentina though, so Jones is happy to use him there, you'd think especially if he loses a ball player in the midfield.

Jones is also happy to keep players on the bench unused, so no guarantee either way.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by cascough on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:24 am

Why do you want to see it, BamBam? Or anyone else for that matter.

I can't say it fills me with excitement. I mean it'll probably work against Italy but I'm not sure beyond that. JJ is much better in close spaces and has a better step. In a tight game where not a lot of space is afforded I'd fancy JJ to create something out of nothing over Daly.

Daly is a very good broken field runner though, and Wasps play quite a loose game so they certainly get good value out of him. Actually with that in mind shifting him to wing (or potentially back to full back) is a pretty shrewd move by Jones. Just gives him a bit more space to work with.

Pairing him with Te'o I suppose might give him the chance to get on his shoulder, but it puts an awful lot of pressure to be creative on Farrell.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by cascough on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:26 am

That's true Robbo, but I'd kind of discounted that as I thought it was more of a last man standing, we need to get fresh legs onto the pitch sort of scenario. Not quite like Daly's cameo in the back row mind you.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by BamBam on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:27 am

I like the idea of Teo as the power runner, either JJ/Daly outside him works for me but obviously JJ isn't in the squad

If that centre partnership works, then I think Farrell is currently a better option at 10 than Ford, and it could really give us some variety to our game .. horses for courses kind of selection possibilities

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Scottrf on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:28 am

Are we over-reliant on Ford-Farrell?
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Re: England vs Italy

Post by munkian on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:30 am

England team to face Italy

Brown; May, Te'o, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Care; Marler, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Haskell, Hughes.

Replacements: George, M Vunipola, Sinckler, Wood, Clifford, Youngs, Slade, Nowell


Looks weak
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Re: England vs Italy

Post by little_badger on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:34 am

That we could end the game with a backline including (not in positions just personnel)

Ford, Farrell, Daly, Nowell, May and Slade

Makes me so so happy, that is so rapid and has such an array of skills.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Cumbrian on Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:47 am

There doesn't seem a massive amount of pace in the midfield, hope things don't get too pedestrian.
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Join date : 2011-01-28
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Re: England vs Italy

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