England vs Italy

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England vs Italy

Post by nathan on Mon 20 Feb 2017, 9:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

28 players that have been kept.

Forwards (16): Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Jamie George (Saracens), Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs (12): Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath), Jonathan Joseph (Bath), Jonny May (Gloucester), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 1:14 pm

Yes, gori was running into him but Farrell did have the good presence of mind to stop him and tell him "You're too late mate, one of you lads is already off with the ball. You'll never catch him."

Farrell should get the Gentlemanly conduct award.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 1:40 pm

propdavid_london wrote:What was going on with Lawes packing down in the back row and Itoje scrumming in the 2nd row!
When I first saw it I thought they were alternating offensive and defensive scrums - but generally this was the positioning for all scrums.  
I thought we were done with the experimentation of Lawes on the flank!

Probaly to avoid confusing Poite too much when they fed it into the backrow rather than the second

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 1:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:This is a stationary spin gori was running into him no matter what.

Do you know what an oxymoron is?

Like I said if he goes the other way or even stands still Gori has a clear path, he steps into his path and spins with it to lead with his shoulder

https://youtu.be/8KopPHmTRuw?t=38m32s


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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 1:45 pm

You talk some real crap you really do.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 1:46 pm

See if Haskell had said that to Poite he woudlnt be getting nearly as much stick

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 1:47 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You talk some real crap you really do.

See 7.5 others agree you are talking rubbish

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 1:51 pm

Er if he's talking to me that's plain rude but I'm not entirely sure he is. Farrell stands his ground spins to relieve some contact. He's done as much as he can to prevent injury. These things happen in rugby though.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:09 pm

Gooseberry wrote:See if Haskell had said that to Poite he woudlnt be getting nearly as much stick
laughing

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:09 pm

If hes not then hes as big a fool as you, to stand your ground you stand you don't step and turn, really not all that difficult

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:10 pm

There's really no need to start insulting people marty. I'm sorry if you find it upsetting that Farrell did nothing wrong.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Scottrf on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:11 pm

marty2086 wrote:If hes not then hes as big a fool as you, to stand your ground you stand you don't step and turn, really not all that difficult
I probably would if someone was running into my back.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by TrailApe on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:21 pm

I'm sorry if you find it upsetting that Farrell did nothing wrong.

his mere existence is a searing wound to the equilibrium of some people.


(Sexton does the same for me, he's probably a canny enough lad but he just has to sneeze and my loathing indicator goes through the roof).
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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:21 pm

Scottrf wrote:
marty2086 wrote:If hes not then hes as big a fool as you, to stand your ground you stand you don't step and turn, really not all that difficult
I probably would if someone was running into my back.

Back?

Don't you know the difference between front and back?

What about left and right?

But apparently taking a step towards someone and turning into them is accidental and unavoidable Rolling Eyes

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Scottrf on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:25 pm

I'm not Farrell. But nobody stands their ground by maintaining the exact same position. You brace yourself and present the part of your body that will hurt you least.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:26 pm

Oh well. I'm with the ref, tmo and citing officers on this one.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:27 pm

TrailApe wrote:
I'm sorry if you find it upsetting that Farrell did nothing wrong.

his mere existence is a searing wound to the equilibrium of some people.


(Sexton does the same for me, he's probably a canny enough lad but he just has to sneeze and my loathing indicator goes through the roof).

I don't have an issue with Farrell, I think hes a quality player who has really developed into one of the best in the last few years

He's done what plenty of players do because its an offence which isn't penalised because of the distance he has travelled

Whats baffling is the analysis of it by some Englishmen on here, apparently he stood his ground and turned at the same time and somehow Gori was going into his back in a head on collision and he couldn't get out of the way despite moving into contact rather than away from it

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:29 pm

Scottrf wrote:I'm not Farrell. But nobody stands their ground by maintaining the exact same position. You brace yourself and present the part of your body that will hurt you least.

Who said you had to be to know the difference between someones front and back

You brace yourself if you cant get out of the way, turn the other way he easily avoids contact, instead he steps into it

Just watch the video its all there

You might even figure out the difference between front and back Erm

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Scottrf on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:30 pm

I didn't say he was running into Farrell's back. It's an analogy. Google it.

He doesn't have to get out of the way.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by beshocked on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:32 pm

It was stupid by Farrell, just to cap off a shocking performance.

I am sure he'll put it behind him though. He doesn't often have two bad performances in a row.

Plus it didn't cost England the game.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:33 pm

Scottrf wrote:I didn't say he was running into Farrell's back. It's an analogy. Google it.

He doesn't have to get out of the way.

He wasn't in the way that's the problem, he steps into Goris path


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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:34 pm

Doesn't matter anyway, not a foul.

Did Farrell insult you in some way beshocked?

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Doesn't matter anyway, not a foul.

Yo mean it wasn't ruled a foul, theres a difference OK

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:36 pm

Farrell doesn't have to do anything to move out the way and he's perfectly entitled to stand his ground as he did, the onus is on the attacker to avoid him which he didn't.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:36 pm

It's a bit of a shame Italy tactics and Farrell not being soft have distracted from some of the handling in the 2nd half. Slades offload in the build up to Nowell second...sublime.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:38 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Farrell doesn't have to do anything to move out the way and he's perfectly entitled to stand his ground as he did, the onus is on the attacker to avoid him which he didn't.

Stepping into someones path and blocking them isn't standing your ground, its obstruction

Gori was the player who stuck to his path Farrell didn't


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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:39 pm

Well it was reviewed and people don't see it that way. Lot of fuss over a potential obstruction.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well it was reviewed and people don't see it that way. Lot of fuss over a potential obstruction.

As I said, its something many do and its never penalised

It flies in the face of protecting players too

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:41 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Farrell doesn't have to do anything to move out the way and he's perfectly entitled to stand his ground as he did, the onus is on the attacker to avoid him which he didn't.

Stepping into someones path and blocking them isn't standing your ground, its obstruction

Gori was the player who stuck to his path Farrell didn't


Absolute garbage, I know being Irish you like moaning about referees but moaning about a game not involving is a new level of absurdity.

The referee and TMO disagree with your inane ramblings.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:42 pm

Well WR aren't going to change the rule to say you must move out of the way so I guess it's up to the Gori s of this world to not run into people.

What did you think of Slades offload...class wasn't it.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by beshocked on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:45 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Doesn't matter anyway, not a foul.

Did Farrell insult you in some way beshocked?

Do you disagree again? Do you think Farrell had a good game?

Sigh sometimes I think you disagree just to get a reaction.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:48 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Farrell doesn't have to do anything to move out the way and he's perfectly entitled to stand his ground as he did, the onus is on the attacker to avoid him which he didn't.

Stepping into someones path and blocking them isn't standing your ground, its obstruction

Gori was the player who stuck to his path Farrell didn't


Absolute garbage, I know being Irish you like moaning about referees but moaning about a game not involving is a new level of absurdity.

The referee and TMO disagree with your inane ramblings.

The TMO said he stood still, so it seems he disagrees with, you know, what actually happened

But its seems you aren't immune from xenophobic bigotry, also only English and Italians are now allowed to comment here? So rugby fans cant comment on a game of rugby? Seems you really are just a bit of a prat

If you bothered reading what Ive written I said plenty do it, these includes Irish players, and don't get punished

So apparently he didn't take steps into Goris path and couldn't get clear but could brace himself, all makes loads of sense picard

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:48 pm

Not disagreeing just asking what he did you.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Cyril on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:50 pm

Who peed in marty's lucky charms today? Shocked

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well WR aren't going to change the rule to say you must move out of the way so I guess it's up to the Gori s of this world to not run into people.

Why aren't they going to change them? If players are getting injured they will be forced to but they don't need to to address the issue because its not getting out of the way, many like Farrell step across paths and officials shrug their shoulders and say he couldn't move.

Watch it again, Farrell steps across. The angle from behind Gori shows a clear path, if he stood still Gori probably goes over Farrells leg and Farrell gets done for a trip


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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:53 pm

Cyril wrote:Who peed in marty's lucky charms today? Shocked

Nothing like casual xenophobia

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:55 pm

Because players could just run at the opposition and get a free kick if they didn't move.

Seriously good offload by slade. Nice little wrap around later in the game as well. England actually looked pretty good when they got going.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by beshocked on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not disagreeing just asking what he did you.

Please stick to rugby. If you agree then there's no point questioning my comment.

What I said is not unreasonable. We all know Farrell is a good rugby player but had a shocker.

I hope he doesn't vs Scotland and don't think he will.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by marty2086 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because players could just run at the opposition and get a free kick if they didn't move.

You mean they could change their path to gain an advantage? Like Farrell did to obstruct Gori? You're right

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 2:58 pm

I just dont think people are getting angry enough about this. Can someone please come in and say something to wind folk up a bit?

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by beshocked on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 3:01 pm

On a slightly different topic - Aaron Morris challenge on Thompstone -Quins vs Leicester.

Would you have given red or yellow card?

Personally I thought lucky not to get red and it's what I would have given.

He has been cited unsurprisingly.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 3:06 pm

No marty, theres really nothing in it.

You really not going to share what Farrell did to you beshocked?

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 3:13 pm

Look, you can all joke about it, but I don't think it's a laughing matter that Gori had to be helicoptered off the field all broken up like that. And then Eddie - that f**ker - makes so little of it that he talks about f**king strategy instead. Get your priorities right, Eddie! You're dragging English rugby into disrepute!



... that's the best I can do, Goose.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by beshocked on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 3:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No marty, theres really nothing in it.

You really not going to share what Farrell did to you beshocked?

There's nothing to say.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 3:18 pm

Awww you've gone all coy!

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Exiledinborders on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 5:57 pm

marty2086 wrote:He spun to his left which was the line Gori was taking, he spins right theres no contact and used his shoulder to do it
I think you need to look up the definition of "spin". Whether something spins clockwise or anti-clockwise it remains in the same position.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Cyril on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 6:15 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Who peed in marty's lucky charms today? Shocked

Nothing like casual xenophobia
Who said it was casual? I've been planning that one since 2011 but I've never found the right moment Wink

Seriously though, they're magically delicious Smile

An Irish fan referred to Twickers/England as 'Land of the Prawn Sandwich' which was wildly offensive, if true.

Lighten up, there's still plenty of time before the Ireland/England game. Don't peak too early.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by quinsforever on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:43 pm

farrell not moving was fine. which is a bit surprising as when things arent going his way he usually hands out a cheap shot or two out of frustration.

marty are you comparing this to when an irishman nearly decapitated a saffer on tour? is that where this comes from?

farrell doesnt have to change his angle of movement. he doesnt have to get our of gor's way. thats the laws. farrell didnt endanger gori's health by anything he did. gori did that by running into him and trying to milk a penalty. he got consussed by farrell's pec.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by cascough on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:24 am

I rewatched this game yesterday, as I usually would with an England game and I was going to do a rundown of each incident but I bored myself just thinking about it, so I thought I'd do a brief overview instead. I'm not promising this will be anymore interesting mind you...

So there's a bit of rhetoric flying around, namely that;

England didn't know the rules.
England took too long to adapt/it worked for 40 mins.
Poite reffed it inconsistently.

On the first one, this has been mentioned a fair bit already. I personally felt Haskell and Launchbury in particular showed real leadership in trying to sort out the problem with the ref. It's a law, not a rule and therefore Poites interpretation is not available in a document for anyone to read. For that reason I thought it perfectly reasonable to clarify with the ref precisely how he was reffing it. England are there to be shot at, and Haskell in particular puts himself out there but I think anyone suggesting England didn't know the rules would have seen their players doing the same thing had it been their team. What isn't helping, and is giving ammunition to the claim is some of the stuff put out there by others. Nigel Owens was on the radio saying that grabbing an opposition shirt isn't enough to create a ruck despite numerous referees allowing this when the tactic has been tried in the past. After Poites great "not a coach line" Monye said on comms that "Professional player...should know the rules". However before that, on about 20 mins, Monye also said, "One thing you can do...grab an opposition shirt...create the ruck". So which is it Ugo? Do they know the rules or not?

England took too long to adapt? Well what does everyone thing they should have done? Lot of the current pros were suggesting on twitter that they should have started picking and going. This seems to be fairly universally accepted as the right thing to do on here. Well having watched it back, England stopped whipping the ball away and started picking and going at around 20 mins. This worked fine in itself for a while and then a mistake by England at around 30 mins saw England hardly touch the ball for the rest of the half. I'd also add that for the first 10 minutes it also was a non issue as England whipped the ball away so quickly from the breakdown that Italy couldn't try the tactic. As we know the first 10 minutes of the second half saw England score their points. Poite then makes a really poor decision on about the 50 minute mark when England manage to turn over possession, Poite cries ruck (correctly) and England then assess their options but Italy come offside. Poite then holds his arms out to indicate they are fine. England cough it up and again they don't see the ball for a few minutes, in which time Italy threaten a comeback. So did it work for 40 minutes? Well as I say we didn't see it until 10 minutes and England starting negating it at 20 minutes. They didn't have the ball for long periods (30-40, 50-60) and I haven't seen anyone mention it as an issue for the last 20. I can only see that as meaning it caused confusion for 10 minutes. What the furore has masked, and possibly why people think England took too long to adapt, is just how poor England were in other facets of the game. (None moreso than Italy's first try when they were stood still watching the kick hit the post). The atmosphere was very flat at kick off and the players seemed to be flat too. There were handling errors, errors in the defensive maul, defensive breakdowns, kicking errors, execution errors (forcing offloads etc) etc etc.

On the last point, I don't think there are too many contentious calls as to whether or not a ruck had formed. But there were a couple with Italy players disengaging after initially making contact at the tackle area. There were a couple of plain bad decisions too. Overall having adapted the position he did, although this was at odds with how it has been reffed before, Poite was okay.

England were their own worst enemies on Sunday. I suspect Jones has reacted the way he has because he will be frustrated he didn't get a flat track to try his combinations out, but also because he will know just how poor England's execution was.

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by cascough on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:24 am

I said brief. Sorry!

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Re: England vs Italy

Post by Scottrf on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:31 am

Agree with you. Can't remember a performances like that from the boot for England. 3/7 kicks made, penalties missing touch, kicks going into the dead zone or straight out. Awful.

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Re: England vs Italy

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