The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

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The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by No9 on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 2:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

1) Hartley - Not a chance. Playing like a Muppet, being sub'd each game, because he's not up to it. As it stands, unlikely to go on the tour, never the less be Capt.

2) Alun Wyn - Blown it. Was the first choice (IMO). Set up for him, with Warbs standing down as Welsh Capt, but AWJ loathing of being interviewed and the appalling Welsh team performance has ruined his chance of Lions Capt. The nail in the coffin being his comment this week, that he wanted to kick the penalties but Biggar and Halfpenny didn't want to..... WTF... WHO'S CAPT!!!

3) Laidlaw - Not sure of a starting place as Lions 9, and with injuries, will he be ready for the tour.


which, IMO has pushes Rory Best into the pole position for Lions Capt. With the exception of Brown, he's been the on form hooker this 6 Nations, and as Gats has already stated he would like the Lions capt to also captain his country, Best is now the first choice.

... But Warbs is a good outsider, has he's been there, works well with Gats and has the professional attitude needed. He handles the media well and is starting to show return in his form.

Thoughts...

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 3:26 pm

Sin é wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Say what you want, the 3 best lions captains:

Willie John Mcbride
MJ
Findlay Calder

In that order ^

MJ captained the losing tour to Australia which there was nothing but trouble emanating from it.


Ok I'll clarify :

WJM (South Africa 1974)
MJ (South Africa 1997)
Findlat Calder (Oz 1989)

If only Test series winners, John Dawes must surely be the greatest Lions Captain with the 1971 tour win over New Zealand?

Lions Test win percentages
v. Argentina - 86%
v. Australia - 74%
v. New Zealand - 16%
v. South Africa - 37%




Who said anything about it being winning captains? It's just a coincidence that the ones I picked we winners.

As I said I'd pick Warburton, most likely supported in that role by Best and possibly Launchberry or Barclay.

I'd prefer it to be forwards, Leading back contenders like Farrell and Sexton will have enough to worry about.
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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 3:27 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:The bottom line is ...we're playing NZ IN NZ....!

We'll need more than one captain out there!!

You'll need more than one of everything considering the Clubs will be as tough as the Tests.

I wonder would Gats mind there being more than one Head Coach?

But even saying all that - that's pathetic that the sum of four National teams (High ranking ones) fret and worry and plot about going to New Zealand to play one little Nation. It's downright embarrassing if I'm honest about it. picard Hannibal crossing the Alps to take on a Pub-quiz team.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 3:36 pm

SecretFly wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:The bottom line is ...we're playing NZ IN NZ....!

We'll need more than one captain out there!!

You'll need more than one of everything considering the Clubs will be as tough as the Tests.

I wonder would Gats mind there being more than one Head Coach?

But even saying all that - that's pathetic that the sum of four National teams (High ranking ones) fret and worry and plot about going to New Zealand to play one little Nation. It's downright embarrassing if I'm honest about it. picard Hannibal crossing the Alps to take on a Pub-quiz team.

Spot on....its going to be a freakishly tough tour. Multiple captains...and EVERYONE selected must be in top form and the tactics must be right...

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 3:40 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:Wouldn't mind Conor Murray getting the gig, myself. Leads by example, near enough guaranteed a Test spot as things stand and one of the few potential Lions to be clearly better than his opposite number in New Zealand. Quite like scrum-halves as captains, as it happens....


According to Rassie:

Erasmus however doesn’t think captaining the Lions is for Murray.

“I don’t know if Conor would like to be the captain. He’s a very down to earth guy and of course the captaincy is a great honour.
I haven’t had discussions with him along those lines. I’ve only known him for seven months.
Certainly with his quality as a player and with his stature and aura, (but) I’m not sure he would want that.” Erasmus said.
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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 3:42 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Say what you want, the 3 best lions captains:

Willie John Mcbride
MJ
Findlay Calder

In that order ^

MJ captained the losing tour to Australia which there was nothing but trouble emanating from it.


Ok I'll clarify :

WJM (South Africa 1974)
MJ (South Africa 1997)
Findlat Calder (Oz 1989)

If only Test series winners, John Dawes must surely be the greatest Lions Captain with the 1971 tour win over New Zealand?

Lions Test win percentages
v. Argentina - 86%
v. Australia - 74%
v. New Zealand - 16%
v. South Africa - 37%




Who said anything about it being winning captains? It's just a coincidence that the ones I picked we winners.

As I said I'd pick Warburton, most likely supported in that role by Best and possibly Launchberry or Barclay.

I'd prefer it to be forwards, Leading back contenders like Farrell and Sexton will have enough to worry about.

Whats the criteria then? Why do you think WJ McBride is the best Lions Captain?
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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 3:44 pm

Murray giving orders to Sexton? Now that would cause lively shenanigans.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by captain carrantuohil on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 3:47 pm

Big honour, mind, Sin, and the fact that he could go back to being one of the troops after the tour might persuade him to give it a crack for a few weeks. Not sure anyone saw MJ coming as skipper in 97 - wasn't it De Glanville or Dallaglio or someone like that who was captaining England back then and didn't Johnson have to be talked into the job by Geech and co?

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by ChequeredJersey on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 4:03 pm

Make Stander captain. Or Murray.
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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 4:10 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:Big honour, mind, Sin, and the fact that he could go back to being one of the troops after the tour might persuade him to give it a crack for a few weeks. Not sure anyone saw MJ coming as skipper in 97 - wasn't it De Glanville or Dallaglio or someone like that who was captaining England back then and didn't Johnson have to be talked into the job by Geech and co?

Different kettle of fish though. That Lions team was full of some very strong England characters (like Dayglo, Hill & Dawson). It was mainly an English tour to start out with a few guests (like Jenkins, Wood & Townsend).

I think Johnson was a great England captain, but I'm not too sure he would be held in the same regard as a captain outside of England. For instance, I seem to recall Martyn Williams saying that Paul O'Connell was the best captain he ever played under (and he was on 3 Lions Tours - '01, '05 & '09).

The big job that the tour captain has is unite the squad from the different countries, particularly as Gatland does his best to be divisive with the squad.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Sin é on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 4:15 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Make Stander captain. Or Murray.

Actually, CJ would be a good one. He has a lot of experience of breaking new ground as such - moving countries, sitting it out at Munster for the first year or so, then making the Ireland squad. He seems to be well liked by everyone and he puts his heart and soul into everything. He won the triple last year - Munster Player of the Year, Ireland Players Player of the Year and Press Player of the Year.

He also captained the Junior Boks and was Munster captain when POM was out for the season.
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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by rodders on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 4:16 pm

Hey Stander isn't a bad shout. Plus he's a saffer so he'd be a neutral choice.
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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 4:23 pm

Sin é wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:Make Stander captain. Or Murray.

Actually, CJ would be a good one. He has a lot of experience of breaking new ground as such - moving countries, sitting it out at Munster for the first year or so, then making the Ireland squad. He seems to be well liked by everyone and he puts his heart and soul into everything. He won the triple last year - Munster Player of the Year, Ireland Players Player of the Year and Press Player of the Year.

He also captained the Junior Boks and was Munster captain when POM was out for the season.

You just killed his candidature sin. Too much Munster in him. Gatland likes more finesse in his players.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by captain carrantuohil on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 4:33 pm

You might be right, Sin. The one thing that I'd say about the 97 tour was that management actually spent time looking at who was playing well in the warm-ups to the tests and picked the side on form as a result. So we got Smith, Wallace and Davidson playing in the pack instead of the seven Englishmen plus Wood who had been widely forecast and everything gelled really well. Of course, it helped that you had such a genuine bloke and all-round great tourist as Jason Leonard about then, who took his place among the dirt-trackers with really good grace and generally did his bit to foster the best team spirit that I've ever seen on a Lions tour in the professional era.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Knackeredknees on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 8:42 pm

I'd go for Murray as captain, pretty much nailed on started and for a scrum half isn't a gobby arse to the ref.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Gwlad on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 9:01 pm

We won't be having an Irish skipper. End of. The only candidate is Best and Gats hates him.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 9:08 pm

Wales have a few regal candidates and Ireland have only one, who is only a token nomination - as Gats won't ever remotely pick him coz he doesn't like much in an Irish shirt?

Hmmm.... who the Hell actually beat the All Blacks?...and Australia (on their own without needing the Lions shirt as back up)?

A severe case of Aphasia throughout the Isles of the Northern Atlantic. Wink

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by doctor_grey on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 9:19 pm

SecretFly wrote:Wales have a few regal candidates and Ireland have only one, who is only a token nomination - as Gats won't ever remotely pick him coz he doesn't like much in an Irish shirt?

Hmmm.... who the Hell actually beat the All Blacks?...and Australia (on their own without needing the Lions shirt as back up)?

A severe case of Aphasia throughout the Isles of the Northern Atlantic. Wink
I believe Chris Robshaw was captain of a team which defeated the All Blacks.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 9:29 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wales have a few regal candidates and Ireland have only one, who is only a token nomination - as Gats won't ever remotely pick him coz he doesn't like much in an Irish shirt?

Hmmm.... who the Hell actually beat the All Blacks?...and Australia (on their own without needing the Lions shirt as back up)?

A severe case of Aphasia throughout the Isles of the Northern Atlantic. Wink
I believe Chris Robshaw was captain of a team which defeated the All Blacks.

I believe you are right but I don't believe Chris is Irish, doc.

Gats though will be glad to hear that Chris beat the ABs and more importantly that he isn't Irish. That gives him a mighty chance at being a dark horse outsider candidate for Captaincy... Cool

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Gwlad on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 9:31 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wales have a few regal candidates and Ireland have only one, who is only a token nomination - as Gats won't ever remotely pick him coz he doesn't like much in an Irish shirt?

Hmmm.... who the Hell actually beat the All Blacks?...and Australia (on their own without needing the Lions shirt as back up)?

A severe case of Aphasia throughout the Isles of the Northern Atlantic. Wink
I believe Chris Robshaw was captain of a team which defeated the All Blacks.

and capitulated in his own RWC, lost the captaincy and is now injured, hardly a great set of credentials for a tour in the summer.


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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by doctor_grey on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 9:48 pm

Gwlad wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wales have a few regal candidates and Ireland have only one, who is only a token nomination - as Gats won't ever remotely pick him coz he doesn't like much in an Irish shirt?

Hmmm.... who the Hell actually beat the All Blacks?...and Australia (on their own without needing the Lions shirt as back up)?

A severe case of Aphasia throughout the Isles of the Northern Atlantic. Wink
I believe Chris Robshaw was captain of a team which defeated the All Blacks.

and capitulated in his own RWC, lost the captaincy and is now injured, hardly a great set of credentials for a tour in the summer.
But the point is about beating the ABs. Truly, Robshaw is not Irish, but there is the rub..................


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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Griff on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:12 pm

I've got no problem with it being an Irish captain. Or English or Scottish for that matter. In fact I think it should be someone from one of those nations. Hmmm. Who is a nailed on starter? And who out of those few would make a good captain? And do you go for a complete rookie captain just because he is nailed on to start? Tough questions, and I don't think there's anyone who fits into that criteria right now.

Does a captain need to be picked before the touring party leaves? Much like my views on test team selection, I'd prefer the captain to be picked from those who show up well on tour rather than be decided beforehand.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:16 pm

Oh we're just killing time until the next instalment of 6N, Griff. Have to talk about something, and I'm safer talking about this stuff than other stuff...

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Griff on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:28 pm

I'd take all 4 current captains and let them fight it out on the ping pong table. Ping pong seems to be the main focus of the Lions these days, going by the behind the scenes tapes.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:34 pm

Laugh

Wash your mouth out with soap, Griff.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Gwlad on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:35 pm

I dont think AWJ has started playing badly but his Captaincy has dealt a fatal blow; iMO he was one of those guys with his experience of Lions tours, Lions captaincy and winning a tour, that would make the perfect leader combined with his acerbic nature and hard nosed playing style. He brought added value as being more than just a quality player. But he has flunked out and therefore drops of my radar because i wouldn't pick him just as a player, he'd have to bring the leadership and I think his performance so far just doesn't support it. He might turn it around of course and shoo himself straight back in, wins v ire and France would be enough but I can't see that right now.

In that case I think the best candidate is Sam Warburton. He definitely tours, with his experience, his ability to cover 6 and probably be the starting 7. He's shown however that he doesn't seem to thrive whilst skipper of Wales.

This was Hartley's tour, what more could England have done to give hi the foundation on which to shine but he has disappointed while around him the team has flourished. He'll tour (subject to no ban for stamp/gouge etc) and may come on at the right time but i reckon his NZ oppos  will get him to bite in those club games.

Best…nah.

So who else. I have heard ridiculous ideas like Murray and Itoje and now Robshaw. Just no way any of those guys will be skipper and one won't even go on tour.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Cyril on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:38 pm

So, we should give the captaincy to a player who doesn't want to be a captain?

This has the makings of a classic tour!

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Scottrf on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:38 pm

So we've ruled everyone out then.
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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Scottrf on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:39 pm

Cyril wrote:So, we should give the captaincy to a player who doesn't want to be a captain?

This has the makings of a classic tour!
To be fair, that's what England did. And haven't lost a game since.

Stepped down as club captain, shortly after made England captain.
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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by quinsforever on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:47 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
nlpnlp wrote:I think one thing to take out of this is that Biggar is a gobsh!te and shouldn't be in the Welsh team and I certainly wouldn't dismiss AWJ as the Lions captain.  I think it could well come down to the England  Ireland showdown.  if England win back to back grand slams the job is Hartley's.  people criticising Hartley should remember he has only just come back from an enforced absence out of the game, so is still working himself back to full fitness and form.  If Ireland win then I think Best will get the gig.

All that said I would not be surprised if Gatland did not drop his tour captain for 1 or more of the test matches if he thought the captain did not merit his place.  As has been said there are a number of experienced players who could step in for a one-off.

Final point would love Barclay to have the opportunity to go, he reminds me of Finlay Calder who did a great job as captain of the Lions.  He would have the respect of all nations, whereas AWJ, Hartley and Best may all have their detractors.  if he was English and called Hill he would be hailed a s a "lege".

I think you have to. Robshaw's term as England captain ended in a similar fashion. It's not a democratic process. If he wants to go for the posts the discussion is over, it's not up to Biggar. If Halfpenny doesn't fancy it as the primary kicker then fair enough.

However forget the debacle on the pitch. the revelation at the post game press conference IMO put the nail in his Lions captain credentials.

Jones said: 'I would have liked to [go for the 3]. The kickers didn't want to, so we went for the corner.'

First off the kickers didn't want to doesn't wash with me. Biggar didn't want to, he has no say IMO since Halfpenny could have banged that one over no problem. Secondly to publicly come out after the game and ship potential blame on other players who overruled his decision is not the action of a captain IMO. He should have shouldered that responsibility to protect his players.

100%. i like AWJ, but this is a cataclysmic loss of face. Not recoverable IMO.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by quinsforever on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:53 pm

Sin é wrote:
captain carrantuohil wrote:Big honour, mind, Sin, and the fact that he could go back to being one of the troops after the tour might persuade him to give it a crack for a few weeks. Not sure anyone saw MJ coming as skipper in 97 - wasn't it De Glanville or Dallaglio or someone like that who was captaining England back then and didn't Johnson have to be talked into the job by Geech and co?

Different kettle of fish though. That Lions team was full of some very strong England characters (like Dayglo, Hill & Dawson). It was mainly an English tour to start out with a few guests (like Jenkins, Wood & Townsend).

I think Johnson was a great England captain, but I'm not too sure he would be held in the same regard as a captain outside of England. For instance, I seem to recall Martyn Williams saying that Paul O'Connell was the best captain he ever played under (and he was on 3 Lions Tours - '01, '05 & '09).

The big job that the tour captain has is unite the squad from the different countries, particularly as Gatland does his best to be divisive with the squad.


Anyone doubting Martin Johnson's qualities as a captain needs to watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BdsTh2oP6o

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by doctor_grey on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:12 am

Scottrf wrote:
Cyril wrote:So, we should give the captaincy to a player who doesn't want to be a captain?

This has the makings of a classic tour!
To be fair, that's what England did. And haven't lost a game since.

Stepped down as club captain, shortly after made England captain.
And it almost seems as if he hasn't played for Saints since.................

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Gwlad on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:12 am

quinsforever wrote:
Sin é wrote:
captain carrantuohil wrote:Big honour, mind, Sin, and the fact that he could go back to being one of the troops after the tour might persuade him to give it a crack for a few weeks. Not sure anyone saw MJ coming as skipper in 97 - wasn't it De Glanville or Dallaglio or someone like that who was captaining England back then and didn't Johnson have to be talked into the job by Geech and co?

Different kettle of fish though. That Lions team was full of some very strong England characters (like Dayglo, Hill & Dawson). It was mainly an English tour to start out with a few guests (like Jenkins, Wood & Townsend).

I think Johnson was a great England captain, but I'm not too sure he would be held in the same regard as a captain outside of England. For instance, I seem to recall Martyn Williams saying that Paul O'Connell was the best captain he ever played under (and he was on 3 Lions Tours - '01, '05 & '09).

The big job that the tour captain has is unite the squad from the different countries, particularly as Gatland does his best to be divisive with the squad.


Anyone doubting Martin Johnson's qualities as a captain needs to watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BdsTh2oP6o

AWJ would have said

Lads we're not fecking moving over my dead body…..oh ok lets move.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 7:12 am

Good to see Chris Robshaw back in training after his shoulder op. Will be too early for 6Ns but puts him back into contention for Lions.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 8:51 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

However forget the debacle on the pitch. the revelation at the post game press conference IMO put the nail in his Lions captain credentials.

Jones said: 'I would have liked to [go for the 3]. The kickers didn't want to, so we went for the corner.'

First off the kickers didn't want to doesn't wash with me. Biggar didn't want to, he has no say IMO since Halfpenny could have banged that one over no problem. Secondly to publicly come out after the game and ship potential blame on other players who overruled his decision is not the action of a captain IMO. He should have shouldered that responsibility to protect his players.



Absolutely agree. Its noit the decision or how he came about it, which in my opinion is fine and shows he trusts his senior players, but to hang tghem out to dry to defelect criticism off himself is potentially very damaging to his team. Being generous we could see it as just being too open and not really thinking about the implication of what he said, but it still shows he doesnt have the saviness with the media to dodge round difficult questions. Its excatly the sort of the thing the press loves to latch onto and blow out of all proportion with touring teams.

I dont think its the ned of AWJ but its raised a big question over a guy who was looking to have it pretty well sewn up. At the minut ethough hes reminding me very much of Robshaw who looked out of his depth as a captain regardless of how well he played as an individual.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:08 am

Sin é wrote:
captain carrantuohil wrote:Big honour, mind, Sin, and the fact that he could go back to being one of the troops after the tour might persuade him to give it a crack for a few weeks. Not sure anyone saw MJ coming as skipper in 97 - wasn't it De Glanville or Dallaglio or someone like that who was captaining England back then and didn't Johnson have to be talked into the job by Geech and co?

Different kettle of fish though. That Lions team was full of some very strong England characters (like Dayglo, Hill & Dawson). It was mainly an English tour to start out with a few guests (like Jenkins, Wood & Townsend).

That certainly isn't my recollection of the tour. I recall it being fairly balanced, certainly the Test XV:

England: 6
Ireland: 3
Scotland: 3
Wales: 3

Also worth noting that Dawson wasn't really a "strong character" at that stage of his career. He was very much starting out his international rugby career at that point (and wasn't expected to play in the Tests). He benefitted from the injury to Rob Howley (strong favourite to start the Test series).

One of the great aspects of that series victory was the fact that each nation made an important contribution.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:59 pm

Anyone actually seen the article on ESPN Scrum dubbed Lion Cubs, an XV made out of first time tourists?

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/18779777/the-lions-cubs-team-potential-touring-debutants

not a bad XV actually...

1. Jack McGrath (Ireland)
He will face stiff competition at loose-head from Mako Vunipola but McGrath is making all the right noises ahead of the tour.

2. Jamie George (England)
Though he has played all of his Test rugby from the bench, there are plenty who see George as the man who will start against the All Blacks in June.

3. Tadhg Furlong (Ireland)
Furlong's stock has risen dramatically this year and he is in pole position to take the tight-head spot against the All Blacks.

4. Jonny Gray (Scotland)
Gray is arguably the in-form second-row in European rugby at present and should make the squad.


5. Maro Itoje (England)
Itoje's versatility across the second-row and back-row will put him in good stead. He is the reigning World Rugby Breakthrough Player of the Year and should travel to New Zealand.

6. CJ Stander (Ireland)
Stander was outstanding for Ireland against the All Blacks last November and has started this Six Nations in similar form. His eye for the tryline and ability to cover No.8 will work in his favour.

7. Hamish Watson (Scotland)
The openside spot could be a problem for Gatland but Hamish Watson is making all the right noises for Scotland.

8. Billy Vunipola (England)
Vunipola is one of the world's finest No.8s and is a certainty tour despite currently being sidelined.

9. Rhys Webb (Wales)
Webb put down a marker against both England and Scotland and is an option alongside Conor Murray to take the Test No.9 spot.

10. Finn Russell (Scotland)
Could well be the first time since Gregor Townsend toured South Africa in 1997 that there's a Scotland fly-half in the Lions.

11. Elliot Daly (England)
Daly's stocks have risen dramatically over the course of the Six Nations after some cool finishing and important last gasp defensive work. The Wasps back can play on the wing, fullback or in midfield, making him a valuable squad member on a strenuous 10-match tour.

12. Robbie Henshaw (Ireland)
Another Leinster midfielder with serious potential -- Henshaw runs hard and tackles harder. Has formed a useful partnership with Johnny Sexton for both club and country too which should come into consideration.

13. Garry Ringrose (Ireland)
An Irishman by the name of Brian O'Driscoll started the last tour of New Zealand at centre, and that trend could well continue as Leinster's Garry Ringrose continues to show he's a wise head on young shoulders.

14. Jack Nowell (England)
Hasn't been able to lock down a starting spot for England so far this Six Nations but the Exeter Chiefs wing could be just the X-Factor player the Lions need to mark up against 'The Bus' Julian Savea.

15. Liam Williams (Wales)
Williams looks to have solidified his place in Gatland's Lions squad having scored a try in each round of the Six Nations so far. His versatility to change seamlessly between wing and fullback makes him even more of an asset.


Am I the only one that saw that team and thought, that actually looks pretty decent?
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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:08 pm

Pretty good team, I wouldn't object at all if they took to the field. I think Stander is the only flanker to have solidified his place in that ESPN team as he isn't injured. Watson could make the test team if he continues where he left off on the weekend.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by fa0019 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:31 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Sin é wrote:
captain carrantuohil wrote:Big honour, mind, Sin, and the fact that he could go back to being one of the troops after the tour might persuade him to give it a crack for a few weeks. Not sure anyone saw MJ coming as skipper in 97 - wasn't it De Glanville or Dallaglio or someone like that who was captaining England back then and didn't Johnson have to be talked into the job by Geech and co?

Different kettle of fish though. That Lions team was full of some very strong England characters (like Dayglo, Hill & Dawson). It was mainly an English tour to start out with a few guests (like Jenkins, Wood & Townsend).

That certainly isn't my recollection of the tour. I recall it being fairly balanced, certainly the Test XV:

England: 6
Ireland: 3
Scotland: 3
Wales: 3

Also worth noting that Dawson wasn't really a "strong character" at that stage of his career. He was very much starting out his international rugby career at that point (and wasn't expected to play in the Tests). He benefitted from the injury to Rob Howley (strong favourite to start the Test series).

One of the great aspects of that series victory was the fact that each nation made an important contribution.


Would Howley have scored Dawson's wonder try mind?

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 2:01 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Anyone actually seen the article on ESPN Scrum dubbed Lion Cubs, an XV made out of first time tourists?

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/18779777/the-lions-cubs-team-potential-touring-debutants

not a bad XV actually...

1. Jack McGrath (Ireland)
He will face stiff competition at loose-head from Mako Vunipola but McGrath is making all the right noises ahead of the tour.

2. Jamie George (England)
Though he has played all of his Test rugby from the bench, there are plenty who see George as the man who will start against the All Blacks in June.

3. Tadhg Furlong (Ireland)
Furlong's stock has risen dramatically this year and he is in pole position to take the tight-head spot against the All Blacks.

4. Jonny Gray (Scotland)
Gray is arguably the in-form second-row in European rugby at present and should make the squad.


5. Maro Itoje (England)
Itoje's versatility across the second-row and back-row will put him in good stead. He is the reigning World Rugby Breakthrough Player of the Year and should travel to New Zealand.

6. CJ Stander (Ireland)
Stander was outstanding for Ireland against the All Blacks last November and has started this Six Nations in similar form. His eye for the tryline and ability to cover No.8 will work in his favour.

7. Hamish Watson (Scotland)
The openside spot could be a problem for Gatland but Hamish Watson is making all the right noises for Scotland.

8. Billy Vunipola (England)
Vunipola is one of the world's finest No.8s and is a certainty tour despite currently being sidelined.

9. Rhys Webb (Wales)
Webb put down a marker against both England and Scotland and is an option alongside Conor Murray to take the Test No.9 spot.

10. Finn Russell (Scotland)
Could well be the first time since Gregor Townsend toured South Africa in 1997 that there's a Scotland fly-half in the Lions.

11. Elliot Daly (England)
Daly's stocks have risen dramatically over the course of the Six Nations after some cool finishing and important last gasp defensive work. The Wasps back can play on the wing, fullback or in midfield, making him a valuable squad member on a strenuous 10-match tour.

12. Robbie Henshaw (Ireland)
Another Leinster midfielder with serious potential -- Henshaw runs hard and tackles harder. Has formed a useful partnership with Johnny Sexton for both club and country too which should come into consideration.

13. Garry Ringrose (Ireland)
An Irishman by the name of Brian O'Driscoll started the last tour of New Zealand at centre, and that trend could well continue as Leinster's Garry Ringrose continues to show he's a wise head on young shoulders.

14. Jack Nowell (England)
Hasn't been able to lock down a starting spot for England so far this Six Nations but the Exeter Chiefs wing could be just the X-Factor player the Lions need to mark up against 'The Bus' Julian Savea.

15. Liam Williams (Wales)
Williams looks to have solidified his place in Gatland's Lions squad having scored a try in each round of the Six Nations so far. His versatility to change seamlessly between wing and fullback makes him even more of an asset.


Am I the only one that saw that team and thought, that actually looks pretty decent?

That is a good team....great balance.

I think if Watson plays well against England and forces a few turnovers, he'll tour.

Hogg will start at 15 barring any injuries. I'd also stick an English centre in there instead of Ringrose and Nowell wouldn't start either.

Pack looks very strong.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by captain carrantuohil on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 2:09 pm

That would just about be my pack, as it happens. Rory Best for Jamie George, perhaps, especially as there wouldn't be an obvious captain in the side otherwise.

Russell would have to kick the goals, of course - might prefer someone a bit less hot and cold in that regard, Hogg would have to start and Williams would take Nowell's place in the starting line-up for me but nit-picking aside, that's a damned good team.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by BamBam on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 2:13 pm

I know he's a Saffa and all that, but purely on the basis of being a near enough certainty to start, Munster's captain and a clear leader for Ireland, why is Stander not a contender

If we're insufficiently bothered about his country of origin to put him in the Test side, I see no reason that should prevent him from being captain

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by fa0019 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 2:59 pm

BamBam wrote:I know he's a Saffa and all that, but purely on the basis of being a near enough certainty to start, Munster's captain and a clear leader for Ireland, why is Stander not a contender

If we're insufficiently bothered about his country of origin to put him in the Test side, I see no reason that should prevent him from being captain

i think its a big step up, too big a step.

Touring with the Lions in 2013 is a picnic compared to 2017.

The competition, the weather, the expectation. It needs strong experienced heads. Even throwing the armband to say Maro would be ill advisable. SA were the last time to go to NZ and bully them... that was 8 years ago and took a side full of world champs, full of experienced players to do so.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Exiledinborders on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 3:00 pm

Gwlad wrote:I dont think AWJ has started playing badly but his Captaincy has dealt a fatal blow; iMO he was one of those guys with his experience of Lions tours, Lions captaincy and winning a tour, that would make the perfect leader combined with his acerbic nature and hard nosed playing style. He brought added value as being more than just a quality player. But he has flunked out and therefore drops of my radar because i wouldn't pick him just as a player, he'd have to bring the leadership and I think his performance so far just doesn't support it. He might turn it around of course and shoo himself straight back in, wins v ire and France would be enough but I can't see that right now.

In that case I think the best candidate is Sam Warburton. He definitely tours, with his experience, his ability to cover 6 and probably be the starting 7. He's shown however that he doesn't seem to thrive whilst skipper of Wales.

This was Hartley's tour, what more could England have done to give hi the foundation on which to shine but he has disappointed while around him the team has flourished. He'll tour (subject to no ban for stamp/gouge etc) and may come on at the right time but i reckon his NZ oppos  will get him to bite in those club games.

Best…nah.

So who else. I have heard ridiculous ideas like Murray and Itoje and now Robshaw. Just no way any of those guys will be skipper and one won't even go on tour.
The trouble is, I cannot really think of a potential captain who can guarantee their place. Warbuton, AWJ, Hartley, Best even Robshaw have all been mentioned but none of them in my eyes make the starting fifteen. Hartley, AWJ and Robshaw should not even be on the bench.


It is a problem.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 3:03 pm

I always thought Murray or Ryan captained Munster?

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by SecretFly on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 3:13 pm

POM

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by Scottrf on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 3:15 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I always thought Murray or Ryan captained Munster?
POM in quite a few games recently. Tigers rout, Racing etc.
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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 3:17 pm

He's been injured so much that I even forgot he existed. Pretty sure Murray captained in his absence though, and maybe Donncha Ryan too.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by bsando on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 3:19 pm

Barclay?
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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by cascough on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 3:26 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:That would just about be my pack, as it happens. Rory Best for Jamie George, perhaps, especially as there wouldn't be an obvious captain in the side otherwise.

Russell would have to kick the goals, of course - might prefer someone a bit less hot and cold in that regard, Hogg would have to start and Williams would take Nowell's place in the starting line-up for me but nit-picking aside, that's a damned good team.

The lineout will be far too important in NZ to risk Best IMO.

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Re: The Lions WUM Swamp of Madness No Holds Barred Shootout Thread

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 3:34 pm

cascough wrote:
captain carrantuohil wrote:That would just about be my pack, as it happens. Rory Best for Jamie George, perhaps, especially as there wouldn't be an obvious captain in the side otherwise.

Russell would have to kick the goals, of course - might prefer someone a bit less hot and cold in that regard, Hogg would have to start and Williams would take Nowell's place in the starting line-up for me but nit-picking aside, that's a damned good team.

The lineout will be far too important in NZ to risk Best IMO.

Fraser Brown is your man then. 100% lineout completion this 6N. Perhaps helped by the mountainous Gray Family but if its secure ball on your lineout thats the combo in form.
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