6N 2017: England vs Scotland

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6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 5:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

     
ENGLAND v SCOTLAND
Saturday 10th March
16:00 GMT
Twickenham Stadium

Live on ITV, RTE, FR2, DMAX

Referee - Matthieu Raynal
AR1 - Romain Poite
AR2 - Marius Mitrea
TMO - Ben Skeen

A. Head to Head

134 Played 134
74 Won 42
18 Drawn 18
42 Lost 74
1,562 Points 1,141

B. Recent Form

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

C. Teams


ENGLAND


Starting XV:

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 58 caps), 14. Jack Nowell  (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps), 13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 31 caps), 12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 50 caps), 11. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 11 caps), 10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 33 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 68 caps), 1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 49 caps), 2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 82 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 72 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 40 caps) , 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 56 caps), 6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 10 caps), 7. James Haskell (Wasps, 73 caps) , 8. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 6 caps).

Finishers

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 15 caps), 17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 40 caps), 18. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 6 caps), 19. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 48 caps), 20. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens 32 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 69 caps), 22. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 6 caps), 23. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps).

SCOTLAND


Starting XV

15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps; 16 tries, 3 pens, 89 points
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps; 15 tries, 75 points
13. Huw Jones (Stormers) – 6 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps; 6 tries, 30 points
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 29 caps; 12 tries, 60 points
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 5 cons, 8 pens, 44 points
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps
2. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 23 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse) – 63 caps; 3 tries, 15 points
5. Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 31 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
6. John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 58 caps; 4 tries, 20 points
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 8 caps; 1 try, 5 points
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps

Substitutes:
16. Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 105 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
17. Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
18. Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
19. Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 27 caps; 1 try, 5 points
20. Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
21. Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 4 tries, 3 pens, 29 points
22. Duncan Weir (Edinburgh Rugby) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 7 cons, 10 pens, 1 drop, 57 points
23. Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 6 tries, 30 points


Last edited by LondonTiger on Thu 09 Mar 2017, 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 7:33 am

doctor_grey wrote:There are a lot of Scots first team who are injured, right?  Could be a difference maker.  
Despite that, I still expect this to be tight as drum.  if England do go ahead and win, the match in Dublin will make nuclear detonations seem quiet and subdued.  

First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice tighthead
First choice number 8
First/second choice openside
First choice scrum half, kicker and captain

A few other players too but they weren't necessarily going to be in the starting 23

Our resources are certainly getting a little stretched!

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by rosbif on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 7:35 am

Joseph recalled to England squad, Slade omitted. http://www.englandrugby.com/news/squad-assembles-oxford-for-training-week/

Thought Slades 5 minute cameo part was excellent involved twice in the last try giving a back hand flick pass to Nowell. It seems Eddie prefers a Jamie Noon type to a Greenwood style of play

As a Chief fan I'm happy that he is available as Stenson has hamstring issues but think he should be in the squad

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by George Carlin on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 7:37 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:There are a lot of Scots first team who are injured, right?  Could be a difference maker.  
Despite that, I still expect this to be tight as drum.  if England do go ahead and win, the match in Dublin will make nuclear detonations seem quiet and subdued.  

First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice tighthead
First choice number 8
First/second choice openside
First choice scrum half, kicker and captain

A few other players too but they weren't necessarily going to be in the starting 23

Our resources are certainly getting a little stretched!
To be fair though, England are without Phil Vickery.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by rapidsnowman on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 7:45 am

George Carlin wrote:To be fair though, England are without Phil Vickery

Surprising really, I thought Eddie would give youth a chance!

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Scottrf on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 7:47 am

Teresa May apparently.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 8:21 am

George Carlin wrote:Good job LT. Er. Who is the England team rep at the top of the thread? 

It looks like my old geography teacher but I'm going to say that I think it's probably not her.

It is a terrific job, but I would have related something to Jim telfers bags o' this and bags o' that rant.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Poorfour on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 8:22 am

George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:There are a lot of Scots first team who are injured, right?  Could be a difference maker.  
Despite that, I still expect this to be tight as drum.  if England do go ahead and win, the match in Dublin will make nuclear detonations seem quiet and subdued.  

First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice tighthead
First choice number 8
First/second choice openside
First choice scrum half, kicker and captain

A few other players too but they weren't necessarily going to be in the starting 23

Our resources are certainly getting a little stretched!
To be fair though, England are without Phil Vickery.

More seriously, a couple of weeks before the tournament it looked like England would be short
First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice blindside
First choice openside
First choice Number 8
First choice left wing
First choice right wing

We're now in a position where only blindside, number 8 and one wing are still not fully fit and available, which is a big boost. But on the other hand, I think we are feeling the lack of both Billy and Robshaw quite keenly.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 8:31 am

Well it looks like Hardie is the only casualty of the Wales game. It's a shame but the presence of Hamish Watson relieves that problem. However if he empties the tank at around the 50minute mark, who comes on? Denton? Harley? CDP? Swinson? Whoever it is we'll lose breakdown ability for sure.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by George Carlin on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 8:41 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Well it looks like Hardie is the only casualty of the Wales game. It's a shame but the presence of Hamish Watson relieves that problem. However if he empties the tank at around the 50minute mark, who comes on? Denton? Harley? CDP? Swinson? Whoever it is we'll lose breakdown ability for sure.
Watson has a huge engine and also a week off, so I am hoping that he will last the full 80. 

Barclay and Watson are a perfect jackal team. Our line out is solid with the Gray Family and Barclay so we the priority for our bench loose forward is that they have to be a ball carrier. 

I cannot watch Denton in a Scotland shirt any more (I am just waiting for him to go into contact standing up and get turned over yet again) and so I would give CDP his chance and hope to hell that he doesn't phone in his performance as he's done for Edinburgh recently.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 8:45 am

George Carlin wrote:Good job LT. Er. Who is the England team rep at the top of the thread? 

It looks like my old geography teacher but I'm going to say that I think it's probably not her.

Teresa May and "not" Nicola Sturgeon the two pics.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by TJ on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 8:45 am

I think Scotland will need to come out all guns blazing. No settling into the game but attack from the off. I think contestable kicks to the wings(which worked well against Wales) when we have to kick but otherwise move the ball around as much as possible. Attack Ford as well and go for turnovers and counter attacks.

Scotland will create chances but making them count will be hard.

England have to deprive Scotland of possession. I fear for our scrum and lineouts will be a good battle.

The breakdown will be interesting. Speed V Power. Watson is by far the fastest of the lot but I've seen big guys throw him around like a ragdoll. He has a point to prove in this match.

In the end I think the bench is what will do it for England. I expect Scotland to be in touch at the hour but England to win it in the last 20. I hope Scotland make sure England have to play well to win, but if England do play well they will win


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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 8:50 am

TJ wrote:I think Scotland will need to come out all guns blazing.  No settling into the game but attack from the off.  I think contestable kicks to the wings(which worked well against Wales) when we have to kick but otherwise move the ball around as much as possible.  Attack Ford as well and go for turnovers and counter attacks.

Scotland will create chances but making them count will be hard.  

England have to deprive Scotland of possession.  I fear for our scrum and lineouts will be a good battle.

The breakdown will be interesting.  Speed V Power.  Watson is by far the fastest of the lot but I've seen big guys throw him around like a ragdoll.  He has a point to prove in this match.

In the end I think the bench is what will do it for England.  I expect Scotland to be in touch at the hour but England to win it in the last 20.    I hope Scotland make sure England have to play well to win, but if England do play well they will win


Where've you seen that TJ?

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by robbo277 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:00 am

TJ wrote:I think Scotland will need to come out all guns blazing.  No settling into the game but attack from the off.  I think contestable kicks to the wings(which worked well against Wales) when we have to kick but otherwise move the ball around as much as possible.  Attack Ford as well and go for turnovers and counter attacks.

Scotland will create chances but making them count will be hard.  

England have to deprive Scotland of possession.  I fear for our scrum and lineouts will be a good battle.

The breakdown will be interesting.  Speed V Power.  Watson is by far the fastest of the lot but I've seen big guys throw him around like a ragdoll.  He has a point to prove in this match.

In the end I think the bench is what will do it for England.  I expect Scotland to be in touch at the hour but England to win it in the last 20.    I hope Scotland make sure England have to play well to win, but if England do play well they will win


Disagree slightly. England have to deprive Scotland of good possession. Challenge every set piece, no loose kicks and definitely don't get isolated and turned over. But other than that, England will be happy to let Scotland play out from behind their own 10.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:01 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
TJ wrote:I think Scotland will need to come out all guns blazing.  No settling into the game but attack from the off.  I think contestable kicks to the wings(which worked well against Wales) when we have to kick but otherwise move the ball around as much as possible.  Attack Ford as well and go for turnovers and counter attacks.

Scotland will create chances but making them count will be hard.  

England have to deprive Scotland of possession.  I fear for our scrum and lineouts will be a good battle.

The breakdown will be interesting.  Speed V Power.  Watson is by far the fastest of the lot but I've seen big guys throw him around like a ragdoll.  He has a point to prove in this match.

In the end I think the bench is what will do it for England.  I expect Scotland to be in touch at the hour but England to win it in the last 20.    I hope Scotland make sure England have to play well to win, but if England do play well they will win


Where've you seen that TJ?

It used to happens quite a lot - especially against Irish teams in the league who tackled him high and drove him backward - but I've noticed lately for Scotland that when he carries we've latched some players onto him for stability meaning he can barge forward all arms and legs flying and he's got support behind him should he become unstuck against a big lump.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:04 am

Poorfour wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:There are a lot of Scots first team who are injured, right?  Could be a difference maker.  
Despite that, I still expect this to be tight as drum.  if England do go ahead and win, the match in Dublin will make nuclear detonations seem quiet and subdued.  

First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice tighthead
First choice number 8
First/second choice openside
First choice scrum half, kicker and captain

A few other players too but they weren't necessarily going to be in the starting 23

Our resources are certainly getting a little stretched!
To be fair though, England are without Phil Vickery.

More seriously, a couple of weeks before the tournament it looked like England would be short
First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice blindside
First choice openside
First choice Number 8
First choice left wing
First choice right wing

We're now in a position where only blindside, number 8 and one wing are still not fully fit and available, which is a big boost. But on the other hand, I think we are feeling the lack of both Billy and Robshaw quite keenly.

You're not going to get much sympathy from the Scots given that there are more referees in England than adult male rugby players in Scotland! Supposedly...

England have by far the highest number of rugby players in world rugby so you probably won't get much sympathy from anyone! Very Happy

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:17 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:There are a lot of Scots first team who are injured, right?  Could be a difference maker.  
Despite that, I still expect this to be tight as drum.  if England do go ahead and win, the match in Dublin will make nuclear detonations seem quiet and subdued.  

First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice tighthead
First choice number 8
First/second choice openside
First choice scrum half, kicker and captain

A few other players too but they weren't necessarily going to be in the starting 23

Our resources are certainly getting a little stretched!
To be fair though, England are without Phil Vickery.

More seriously, a couple of weeks before the tournament it looked like England would be short
First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice blindside
First choice openside
First choice Number 8
First choice left wing
First choice right wing

We're now in a position where only blindside, number 8 and one wing are still not fully fit and available, which is a big boost. But on the other hand, I think we are feeling the lack of both Billy and Robshaw quite keenly.

You're not going to get much sympathy from the Scots given that there are more referees in England than adult male rugby players in Scotland! Supposedly...

England have by far the highest number of rugby players in world rugby so you probably won't get much sympathy from anyone! Very Happy

Its a pretty horrensdous injury list for sure.

Looking at Englands set piece, and bench depth in there, they should dominate scrum and lineout...so long as they stop trying to overthrow the line which goes wrong far too often. Englands wings are all strong in ball fielding, kicking, and running from deep,....so kicking to them is maybe not as smart as it was to a one dimensional lump like North.


In other news suprisingly Slade has been omitted from the training squad and replaced by Joseph. It seems Jones just doesnt really rate him that much.
Watson and Mako have been released to play, which suggests they will get bench slots at best. Sinckler Genge Hill and Williams also released.

Still lots of questions about how England will line up, but it doenst look like there will be any radical change.


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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by beshocked on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:27 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:There are a lot of Scots first team who are injured, right?  Could be a difference maker.  
Despite that, I still expect this to be tight as drum.  if England do go ahead and win, the match in Dublin will make nuclear detonations seem quiet and subdued.  

First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice tighthead
First choice number 8
First/second choice openside
First choice scrum half, kicker and captain

A few other players too but they weren't necessarily going to be in the starting 23

Our resources are certainly getting a little stretched!
To be fair though, England are without Phil Vickery.

More seriously, a couple of weeks before the tournament it looked like England would be short
First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice blindside
First choice openside
First choice Number 8
First choice left wing
First choice right wing

We're now in a position where only blindside, number 8 and one wing are still not fully fit and available, which is a big boost. But on the other hand, I think we are feeling the lack of both Billy and Robshaw quite keenly.

You're not going to get much sympathy from the Scots given that there are more referees in England than adult male rugby players in Scotland! Supposedly...

England have by far the highest number of rugby players in world rugby so you probably won't get much sympathy from anyone! Very Happy

Well it's been the last 20 when that advantage has been made to count because even if a country's 15 can match us it's a bit harder for a 23 to match our 23.

It's interesting when you compare England's bench in the RWC to now. Jones has really made the "finishers" a real asset.

When you look at the U20s, England have been one of the best in the last few years and it's helped bring England to where they are.

I think sometimes the work of the development of players by clubs is overlooked. England are fortunate because have 12 clubs in the AP and the 12 championship clubs to Scotland's 2.

The Rugby Championship has been an useful tool for England too.

Scotland are clearly benefiting from the rise of Glasgow. This group of players is one of the best IMO Scotland have had in years.



Gooseberry not a big deal if we have Mako and George on the bench, England will just destroy the Scottish scrum when they come on. England's plan seems to be to win the game in the last 20 like the 1st 3 games anyway.

Should work vs Scotland. Don't think will vs Ireland.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by robbo277 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:40 am

Gooseberry wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:There are a lot of Scots first team who are injured, right?  Could be a difference maker.  
Despite that, I still expect this to be tight as drum.  if England do go ahead and win, the match in Dublin will make nuclear detonations seem quiet and subdued.  

First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice tighthead
First choice number 8
First/second choice openside
First choice scrum half, kicker and captain

A few other players too but they weren't necessarily going to be in the starting 23

Our resources are certainly getting a little stretched!
To be fair though, England are without Phil Vickery.

More seriously, a couple of weeks before the tournament it looked like England would be short
First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice blindside
First choice openside
First choice Number 8
First choice left wing
First choice right wing

We're now in a position where only blindside, number 8 and one wing are still not fully fit and available, which is a big boost. But on the other hand, I think we are feeling the lack of both Billy and Robshaw quite keenly.

You're not going to get much sympathy from the Scots given that there are more referees in England than adult male rugby players in Scotland! Supposedly...

England have by far the highest number of rugby players in world rugby so you probably won't get much sympathy from anyone! Very Happy

Its a pretty horrensdous injury list for sure.

Looking at Englands set piece, and bench depth in there, they should dominate scrum and lineout...so long as they stop trying to overthrow the line which goes wrong far too often.  Englands wings are all strong in ball fielding, kicking, and running from deep,....so kicking to them is maybe not as smart as it was to a one dimensional lump like North.


In other news suprisingly Slade has been omitted from the training squad and replaced by Joseph. It seems Jones just doesnt really rate him that much.
Watson and Mako have been released to play, which suggests they will get bench slots at best. Sinckler Genge Hill and Williams also released.

Still lots of questions about how England will line up, but it doenst look like there will be any radical change.


If Jones picked Slade over Joseph for the 23 because of form, then Slade didn't do badly enough to get dropped. I'd be very surprised if this was the case, and would be a real departure from how Eddie normally picks his team, chopping and changing from one week to the next.

More likely it was decided that Joseph would sit out Italy to give Te'o a start and give Slade some minutes off the bench. Jones does keep going back to Slade, and I think although he must rate him at least a bit.

Looking at the rest of the guys they're releasing, assuming none of them start, that would probably mean an Eddie Jones 23 of:

Marler, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Haskell, Hughes
Youngs, Ford, Daly, Farrell, Joseph, Nowell, Brown
George, Mako Vunipola, Sinckler, Wood, Clifford, Care, Te'o, Watson/May

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by cascough on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:47 am

SecretFly wrote:England though are probably the most accomplished high tempo outfit in Europe and gave at hint of it in that scintillating display towards the end of the game against Italy.  Now Italy are Italy - yes.  But I would be cautious with Scotland - if they want it loose and fast, they'll get it with interest.

I think this is spot on. The 3rd Australia game in the summer another example.

I think England will have too much up front, and are as clinical as they come in the backs at the moment. Should be a good game though!

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by robbo277 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:59 am

beshocked wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:There are a lot of Scots first team who are injured, right?  Could be a difference maker.  
Despite that, I still expect this to be tight as drum.  if England do go ahead and win, the match in Dublin will make nuclear detonations seem quiet and subdued.  

First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice tighthead
First choice number 8
First/second choice openside
First choice scrum half, kicker and captain

A few other players too but they weren't necessarily going to be in the starting 23

Our resources are certainly getting a little stretched!
To be fair though, England are without Phil Vickery.

More seriously, a couple of weeks before the tournament it looked like England would be short
First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice blindside
First choice openside
First choice Number 8
First choice left wing
First choice right wing

We're now in a position where only blindside, number 8 and one wing are still not fully fit and available, which is a big boost. But on the other hand, I think we are feeling the lack of both Billy and Robshaw quite keenly.

You're not going to get much sympathy from the Scots given that there are more referees in England than adult male rugby players in Scotland! Supposedly...

England have by far the highest number of rugby players in world rugby so you probably won't get much sympathy from anyone! Very Happy

Well it's been the last 20 when that advantage has been made to count because even if a country's 15 can match us it's a bit harder for a 23 to match our 23.

It's interesting when you compare England's bench in the RWC to now. Jones has really made the "finishers" a real asset.

When you look at the U20s, England have been one of the best in the last few years and it's helped bring England to where they are.

I think sometimes the work of the development of players by clubs is overlooked. England are fortunate because have 12 clubs in the AP and the 12 championship clubs to Scotland's 2.

The Rugby Championship has been an useful tool for England too.

Scotland are clearly benefiting from the rise of Glasgow. This group of players is one of the best IMO Scotland have had in years.



Gooseberry not a big deal if we have Mako and George on the bench, England will just destroy the Scottish scrum when they come on. England's plan seems to be to win the game in the last 20 like the 1st 3 games anyway.

Should work vs Scotland. Don't think will vs Ireland.

Think the advent of the national academy has worked wonders for England. It's a point I made with regards to Italy and their two clubs, but is probably applicable for Scotland. Unless they start producing more quality players, adding a third team would just dilute the quality of all their teams and the competitions they play in.

Interesting article re: the national academy in the Telegraph from 2007. Interesting reading through the names highlighted.

On your other point, it's worth noting that yet again, England were not trailing at the 60 minute mark against Italy when you'd expect the finishers to come on.

You say yourself in your first line that other countries can match us for 60 because of their stronger starting 15s, but then there is a drop off when their benches come on.

Over Jones' tenure the trend is that more often than not England are winning the first 60 and killing off opponents in the last 20. Again, only 3 times England have trailed at the 60 minute mark and never by more than a score.

We saw against Italy the effect of switching finishers into the starting line-up. Haskell, Care, Te'o and May all came into the starting line-up, but the game followed the same pattern. Even-ish for the first 60 with England taking the last 20. Once again, this is because other teams have weaker benches (as you admit) that we can overrun, and not that our bench is stronger than our starting line-up.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 10:14 am

Scotland are finally beginning to get their academies in place thanks to funding from Murrayfield becoming BT Murrayfield.

There are 4 (I think) regional academies that pick players up from 16/17 years old and there is a programme that develops them through to pro level.

Unfortunately we're having to rely on the 7s squad and London Scottish to give them opportunities at pro level as we only have 2 teams.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by cascough on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 10:21 am

beshocked wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:There are a lot of Scots first team who are injured, right?  Could be a difference maker.  
Despite that, I still expect this to be tight as drum.  if England do go ahead and win, the match in Dublin will make nuclear detonations seem quiet and subdued.  

First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice tighthead
First choice number 8
First/second choice openside
First choice scrum half, kicker and captain

A few other players too but they weren't necessarily going to be in the starting 23

Our resources are certainly getting a little stretched!
To be fair though, England are without Phil Vickery.

More seriously, a couple of weeks before the tournament it looked like England would be short
First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice blindside
First choice openside
First choice Number 8
First choice left wing
First choice right wing

We're now in a position where only blindside, number 8 and one wing are still not fully fit and available, which is a big boost. But on the other hand, I think we are feeling the lack of both Billy and Robshaw quite keenly.

You're not going to get much sympathy from the Scots given that there are more referees in England than adult male rugby players in Scotland! Supposedly...

England have by far the highest number of rugby players in world rugby so you probably won't get much sympathy from anyone! Very Happy

Well it's been the last 20 when that advantage has been made to count because even if a country's 15 can match us it's a bit harder for a 23 to match our 23.

It's interesting when you compare England's bench in the RWC to now. Jones has really made the "finishers" a real asset.


Come on beschocked, people have been over this with you. As robbo pointed out England have only been behind going into the last 20 mins 3 times (under jones) and never more than a score. From that point of view the opposition have struggled to match the 15 just as much as the 23.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by robbo277 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 10:39 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotland are finally beginning to get their academies in place thanks to funding from Murrayfield becoming BT Murrayfield.

There are 4 (I think) regional academies that pick players up from 16/17 years old and there is a programme that develops them through to pro level.

Unfortunately we're having to rely on the 7s squad and London Scottish to give them opportunities at pro level as we only have 2 teams.

Academies are key. It will get to the stage where everyone has a good system and everyone will need to look for the next advantage, but at the moment that's where a lot of nations need to invest.

How many Scottish players outside of Scotland could fill a third team? Even without looking at the appetite amongst fans, it would probably struggle in the early years and would need a good load of players.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 10:44 am

robbo277 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotland are finally beginning to get their academies in place thanks to funding from Murrayfield becoming BT Murrayfield.

There are 4 (I think) regional academies that pick players up from 16/17 years old and there is a programme that develops them through to pro level.

Unfortunately we're having to rely on the 7s squad and London Scottish to give them opportunities at pro level as we only have 2 teams.

Academies are key. It will get to the stage where everyone has a good system and everyone will need to look for the next advantage, but at the moment that's where a lot of nations need to invest.

How many Scottish players outside of Scotland could fill a third team? Even without looking at the appetite amongst fans, it would probably struggle in the early years and would need a good load of players.

An ex-pat's 23 of UK based players:

1 Kyle Traynor (Bristol)
2 Scott Lawson (Newcastle)
3 John Welsh (Newcastle)
4 Jim Hamilton (Sarries)
5 ?
6 Mitch Eadie (Bristol)
7 John Barclay
8 David Denton (Bath)

9 Greig Laidlaw (Gloucester)
10 Adam Hastings (Bath)
11 Tim Visser (Quins)
12 Matt Scott (Gloucester)
13 Duncan Taylor (Sarries)
14 Sean Maitland (Sarries)
15 Greig Tonks (London Irish)

I've probably forgotten some players but not a great pack but a good backline - not that many of them would want to sign for a brand new pro team in Scotland.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 10:54 am

Extend the boundary to outside of the UK and you can of course include Richie Gray

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by EWT Spoons on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:32 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotland are finally beginning to get their academies in place thanks to funding from Murrayfield becoming BT Murrayfield.

There are 4 (I think) regional academies that pick players up from 16/17 years old and there is a programme that develops them through to pro level.

Unfortunately we're having to rely on the 7s squad and London Scottish to give them opportunities at pro level as we only have 2 teams.

Academies are key. It will get to the stage where everyone has a good system and everyone will need to look for the next advantage, but at the moment that's where a lot of nations need to invest.

How many Scottish players outside of Scotland could fill a third team? Even without looking at the appetite amongst fans, it would probably struggle in the early years and would need a good load of players.

An ex-pat's 23 of UK based players:

1 Kyle Traynor (Bristol)
2 Scott Lawson (Newcastle)
3 John Welsh (Newcastle)
4 Jim Hamilton (Sarries)
5 ?
6 Mitch Eadie (Bristol)
7 John Barclay
8 David Denton (Bath)

9 Greig Laidlaw (Gloucester)
10 Adam Hastings (Bath)
11 Tim Visser (Quins)
12 Matt Scott (Gloucester)
13 Duncan Taylor (Sarries)
14 Sean Maitland (Sarries)
15 Greig Tonks (London Irish)

I've probably forgotten some players but not a great pack but a good backline - not that many of them would want to sign for a brand new pro team in Scotland.

Think it's a bit out of date now, but there was a whole thread dedicated to such a thing

http://www.606v2.com/t60997-scottish-player-list-playing-outside-of-scotland-transfers?highlight=scottish+players+abroad

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:38 am

We don't need these guys playing in Scotland, I'd much rather they are getting proper competative game time at clubs like sarries, toulouse or quins instead of a almost certainly underfunded 3rd pro team in scotland.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by EWT Spoons on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:40 am

Agreed. Or at least let the youngsters get game time at LS, if they are not ready for playing in the Pro12/Aviva etc

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:41 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:We don't need these guys playing in Scotland, I'd much rather they are getting proper competative game time at clubs like sarries, toulouse or quins instead of a almost certainly underfunded 3rd pro team in scotland.

Agree 100%.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:45 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:We don't need these guys playing in Scotland, I'd much rather they are getting proper competative game time at clubs like sarries, toulouse or quins instead of a almost certainly underfunded 3rd pro team in scotland.

Agree 100%.

Likewise. Numerous players have improved their game by experiencing different leagues/countries, and it allows other players to come through at Edinburgh and Glasgow. There's no place for a "Gatland's Law" in Scottish rugby, not until we have independence and are allowed to print money to fund a 3rd and 4th team.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:45 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:We don't need these guys playing in Scotland, I'd much rather they are getting proper competative game time at clubs like sarries, toulouse or quins instead of a almost certainly underfunded 3rd pro team in scotland.

Thats an odd way of looking at it. Cant say I understand your position at all. Scoland's strength at the moment has a lot to do with the strength of Glasgow in the pro 12 and the champions cup. Without strong Scotland teams you will not have a strong Scotland international side.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by George Carlin on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:46 am

LondonTiger wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Good job LT. Er. Who is the England team rep at the top of the thread? 

It looks like my old geography teacher but I'm going to say that I think it's probably not her.

Teresa May and "not" Nicola Sturgeon the two pics.
They are both the subject of considerable facial disadvantages and are starting to freak me out every time I come onto this page. 

I'd rather look at Eddie Jones' smug, slappable, goblin-like little countenance than look at that.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:47 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:We don't need these guys playing in Scotland, I'd much rather they are getting proper competative game time at clubs like sarries, toulouse or quins instead of a almost certainly underfunded 3rd pro team in scotland.

Thats an odd way of looking at it. Cant say I understand your position at all. Scoland's strength at the moment has a lot to do with the strength of Glasgow in the pro 12 and the champions cup. Without strong Scotland teams you will not have a strong Scotland international side.

Without getting into the whole debate (it has been done to death on here) - there is no money for a competitive 3rd team, a private backer is unlikely to want to throw 5-10 million a year down the drain investing in one,  no real fan base and the league probably doesn't want to add another team given the season is so congested.

It isn't going to happen any time soon.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:48 am

This could be the game of the championship. Cant wait. Obviously I will be supporting scotland in this one.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:49 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:We don't need these guys playing in Scotland, I'd much rather they are getting proper competative game time at clubs like sarries, toulouse or quins instead of a almost certainly underfunded 3rd pro team in scotland.

Thats an odd way of looking at it. Cant say I understand your position at all. Scoland's strength at the moment has a lot to do with the strength of Glasgow in the pro 12 and the champions cup. Without strong Scotland teams you will not have a strong Scotland international side.

Without getting into the whole debate (it has been done to death on here) - there is no money for a competitive 3rd team, a private backer is unlikely to want to throw 5-10 million a year down the drain investing in one,  no real fan base and the league probably doesn't want to add another team given the season is so congested.

It isn't going to happen any time soon.

Fair enough. It would have been cool if a small town like Galashiels could have sustained a pro 12 side and the Border Reivers still existed but it is a very small place.

No idea if it is a nice place.


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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by beshocked on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:49 am

cascough wrote:
beshocked wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:There are a lot of Scots first team who are injured, right?  Could be a difference maker.  
Despite that, I still expect this to be tight as drum.  if England do go ahead and win, the match in Dublin will make nuclear detonations seem quiet and subdued.  

First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice tighthead
First choice number 8
First/second choice openside
First choice scrum half, kicker and captain

A few other players too but they weren't necessarily going to be in the starting 23

Our resources are certainly getting a little stretched!
To be fair though, England are without Phil Vickery.

More seriously, a couple of weeks before the tournament it looked like England would be short
First choice loosehead
Second choice loosehead
First choice blindside
First choice openside
First choice Number 8
First choice left wing
First choice right wing

We're now in a position where only blindside, number 8 and one wing are still not fully fit and available, which is a big boost. But on the other hand, I think we are feeling the lack of both Billy and Robshaw quite keenly.

You're not going to get much sympathy from the Scots given that there are more referees in England than adult male rugby players in Scotland! Supposedly...

England have by far the highest number of rugby players in world rugby so you probably won't get much sympathy from anyone! Very Happy

Well it's been the last 20 when that advantage has been made to count because even if a country's 15 can match us it's a bit harder for a 23 to match our 23.

It's interesting when you compare England's bench in the RWC to now. Jones has really made the "finishers" a real asset.


Come on beschocked, people have been over this with you. As robbo pointed out England have only been behind going into the last 20 mins 3 times (under jones) and never more than a score. From that point of view the opposition have struggled to match the 15 just as much as the 23.

Pretty sure robbo also said England have basically scored a lot more points than the opposition in the last 20. Well I know someone had.

Well we know in this year's 6 nations it's been the replacements that Wales,France and Italy have struggled most with.

I am talking about the 2017 6 nations, not last year.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:53 am

We have a strong squad with not much between starter players, the bench and even the wider squad. There are a few players clearly a bit better and a few a bit worse. There are no Andy goodes keeping out dan carters.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:56 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:We have a strong squad with not much between starter players, the bench and even the wider squad. There are a few players clearly a bit better and a few a bit worse. There are no Andy goodes keeping out dan carters.

Andy Goode was one of English best ever out halves. Very under rated.

Im guessing he is the AP top points scorer of all time??

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:We have a strong squad with not much between starter players, the bench and even the wider squad. There are a few players clearly a bit better and a few a bit worse. There are no Andy goodes keeping out dan carters.

This is a key difference between England and Scotland: the bench. That you mention Andy Goode is timely - we have Duncan Weir on the bench, who makes Andy Goode look like a swim wear model. We've also had to use Zander Fagerson for the full 80 minutes because Simon Berghan is demonstrably not ready for international rugby. The only players we have on the bench for genuine impact are Ross Ford, Tim Swinson, Hamish Watson and Mark Bennett, particularly Hamish Watson and Mark Bennett (two genuine international rugby players). The remainder are basically squad fillers, and England tend not to have those. That Jonathan Joseph can't get into your XV is rather telling.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:58 am

Scotland will probably get blitzed in the scrum

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:59 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:We have a strong squad with not much between starter players, the bench and even the wider squad. There are a few players clearly a bit better and a few a bit worse. There are no Andy goodes keeping out dan carters.

Andy Goode was one of English best ever out halves. Very under rated.

Im guessing he is the AP top points scorer of all time??

I think Charlie Hodgson has that honour.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by beshocked on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:We have a strong squad with not much between starter players, the bench and even the wider squad. There are a few players clearly a bit better and a few a bit worse. There are no Andy goodes keeping out dan carters.

Well we know you have some odd opinions. Saying poor performances were good seems to happen frequently with you.

Current starting XV should be good enough vs Scotland at home, just not convinced for Ireland away.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:01 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:We have a strong squad with not much between starter players, the bench and even the wider squad. There are a few players clearly a bit better and a few a bit worse. There are no Andy goodes keeping out dan carters.

Andy Goode was one of English best ever out halves. Very under rated.

Im guessing he is the AP top points scorer of all time??

I think Charlie Hodgson has that honour.

Well Id say Food is up there.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:02 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Scotland will probably get blitzed in the scrum

That is a near certainty but hopefully like the Ireland and Wales games it won't cause us major problems. Unlike the France game...

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:03 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:We have a strong squad with not much between starter players, the bench and even the wider squad. There are a few players clearly a bit better and a few a bit worse. There are no Andy goodes keeping out dan carters.

Andy Goode was one of English best ever out halves. Very under rated.

Im guessing he is the AP top points scorer of all time??

I think Charlie Hodgson has that honour.

Well Id say Food is up there.

Food? I hear Andy Goode was a big fan.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:03 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Scotland will probably get blitzed in the scrum

That is a near certainty but hopefully like the Ireland and Wales games it won't cause us major problems.  Unlike the France game...

Thats cause there were only about 5 scrums in the Ireland game. Lucky you.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:03 pm

Can't we tell the ref before the game that we're not going to contest the scrum and just dance about a metre away from Danny Care in the backline?

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:05 pm

So just to confirm beshocked you said with finishers starting we would be thrashing these teams . The main players you're talking of being george and Vunipola yes?

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:07 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Can't we tell the ref before the game that we're not going to contest the scrum and just dance about a metre away from Danny Care in the backline?

Scotland should definitely do a few non contested rucks to rattle/annoy Eddie Jones. It clearly got to him in the Italy game.

Best way to beat this England team is show them no respect.


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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:07 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:We don't need these guys playing in Scotland, I'd much rather they are getting proper competative game time at clubs like sarries, toulouse or quins instead of a almost certainly underfunded 3rd pro team in scotland.

Thats an odd way of looking at it. Cant say I understand your position at all. Scoland's strength at the moment has a lot to do with the strength of Glasgow in the pro 12 and the champions cup. Without strong Scotland teams you will not have a strong Scotland international side.

Without getting into the whole debate (it has been done to death on here) - there is no money for a competitive 3rd team, a private backer is unlikely to want to throw 5-10 million a year down the drain investing in one,  no real fan base and the league probably doesn't want to add another team given the season is so congested.

It isn't going to happen any time soon.

Fair enough. It would have been cool if a small town like Galashiels could have sustained a pro 12 side and the Border Reivers still existed but it is a very small place.

No idea if it is a nice place.

Oh it is a nice place. Everywhere in the borders is a nice place. The problem is there is so much competition between the borders towns Jed Forest, Kelso, Gala, Hawick, Melrose etc that they can't get behind a common team because of their tribal loyalties, unless it's Scotland of course.

The SRU are making the best of their current oppertunity at the moment, and making an academy will continue to feed Glasgow and Edinburgh young players whilst the most of the experienced guys stay, whilst some move away to develop their games further. Tim Visser, Richie Gray, Matt Scott, John Barclay, Sean Maitland and Greig Laidlaw to name 6 current players who have all improved since moving away from Scotland and now form the spine of the current Scotland team you see doing so well at the moment.

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