6N 2017: England vs Scotland

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6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 5:18 pm

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ENGLAND v SCOTLAND
Saturday 10th March
16:00 GMT
Twickenham Stadium

Live on ITV, RTE, FR2, DMAX

Referee - Matthieu Raynal
AR1 - Romain Poite
AR2 - Marius Mitrea
TMO - Ben Skeen

A. Head to Head

134 Played 134
74 Won 42
18 Drawn 18
42 Lost 74
1,562 Points 1,141

B. Recent Form

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

C. Teams


ENGLAND


Starting XV:

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 58 caps), 14. Jack Nowell  (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps), 13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 31 caps), 12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 50 caps), 11. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 11 caps), 10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 33 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 68 caps), 1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 49 caps), 2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 82 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 72 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 40 caps) , 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 56 caps), 6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 10 caps), 7. James Haskell (Wasps, 73 caps) , 8. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 6 caps).

Finishers

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 15 caps), 17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 40 caps), 18. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 6 caps), 19. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 48 caps), 20. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens 32 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 69 caps), 22. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 6 caps), 23. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps).

SCOTLAND


Starting XV

15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps; 16 tries, 3 pens, 89 points
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps; 15 tries, 75 points
13. Huw Jones (Stormers) – 6 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps; 6 tries, 30 points
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 29 caps; 12 tries, 60 points
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 5 cons, 8 pens, 44 points
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps
2. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 23 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse) – 63 caps; 3 tries, 15 points
5. Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 31 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
6. John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 58 caps; 4 tries, 20 points
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 8 caps; 1 try, 5 points
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps

Substitutes:
16. Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 105 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
17. Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
18. Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
19. Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 27 caps; 1 try, 5 points
20. Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
21. Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 4 tries, 3 pens, 29 points
22. Duncan Weir (Edinburgh Rugby) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 7 cons, 10 pens, 1 drop, 57 points
23. Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 6 tries, 30 points


Last edited by LondonTiger on Thu 09 Mar 2017, 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 9:01 am

We won't see Scott anywhere near the 23 for this 6N. Cotter has his plans, and Scott isn't in them.

He might, perhaps, make it on the summer tour to Oz but I'd say that's only because we may have a few players missing for the Lions.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 9:06 am

Given the dark days of Morrison, Henderson, Di Rollo and De Luca it really is incredible that we now have 5 genuine international class centres

Dunbar
Jones
Taylor
Scott
Bennett

With Horne not a complete disaster for a 6th choice.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 9:08 am

captain carrantuohil wrote:Pierre Spies may have got 50 + caps but in South Africa he polarises opinions like few other players.

A lot of people wouldn't have had him anywhere near the Boks after his first few appearances; such was the disdain that Spies has gained, and kept, a nickname that most in these islands might associate with Al Kellock of blessed recent memory - The Ruck Inspector. Lazy, not keen to get his hands dirty, doesn't punch his weight, etc. etc. That's the South African view that I've heard a lot and there's no doubt that he has appeared a spectacular waste of talent at times.

I think he got selected that much because he looked the part rather than actually being a good rugby player.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by fa0019 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 9:17 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
captain carrantuohil wrote:Pierre Spies may have got 50 + caps but in South Africa he polarises opinions like few other players.

A lot of people wouldn't have had him anywhere near the Boks after his first few appearances; such was the disdain that Spies has gained, and kept, a nickname that most in these islands might associate with Al Kellock of blessed recent memory - The Ruck Inspector. Lazy, not keen to get his hands dirty, doesn't punch his weight, etc. etc. That's the South African view that I've heard a lot and there's no doubt that he has appeared a spectacular waste of talent at times.

I think he got selected that much because he looked the part rather than actually being a good rugby player.

serious? Jake White....

He had a lot of qualities about him. Probably one of the best lineout operators from the back of the tail of his era. Top strike runner but yes didn't have hands like Talupe and ball carrying like Dillaglio.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 9:23 am

What about Jake White? White once said that not one Ireland player would get in the current SA squad at the time. The next day Ireland racked up a record score against SA. Maybe he isnt the greatest judge of players.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by IanBru on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 9:24 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Given the dark days of Morrison, Henderson, Di Rollo and De Luca it really is incredible that we now have 5 genuine international class centres

Dunbar
Jones
Taylor
Scott
Bennett

With Horne and Richie "He Plays Where He Wants" Vernon not a complete disaster for 6th and 7th choices.
Fixed that for you bud.

On the first point, I've got two words for you: 1) Andy 2) Henderson. Crying or Very sad
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by fa0019 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 9:26 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:What about Jake White? White once said that not one Ireland player would get in the current SA squad at the time. The next day Ireland racked up a record score against SA. Maybe he isnt the greatest judge of players.

Given he won the world cup, the 3N and has turned aroudn under achievers into serious contenders again and again in club rugby. I think he's a decent coach.

Can't recall when he said it but lets be frank, its kind of a South African thing to say. They don't rate anyone, barely do even after a record loss year!

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by dummy_half on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:24 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Given the dark days of Morrison, Henderson, Di Rollo and De Luca it really is incredible that we now have 5 genuine international class centres

Dunbar
Jones
Taylor
Scott
Bennett

With Horne not a complete disaster for a 6th choice.

To be fair, the chances of your centres performing well were not enhanced by having Dan Parks at 10

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by fa0019 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:27 am

dummy_half wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Given the dark days of Morrison, Henderson, Di Rollo and De Luca it really is incredible that we now have 5 genuine international class centres

Dunbar
Jones
Taylor
Scott
Bennett

With Horne not a complete disaster for a 6th choice.

To be fair, the chances of your centres performing well were not enhanced by having Dan Parks at 10

I think any 10 would have suffered behind a pack that inferior. Wasn't the best player true but I think he got a slightly unfair rep. Dan Carter would have looked barely average had he played for Scotland during that era.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:29 am

dummy_half wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Given the dark days of Morrison, Henderson, Di Rollo and De Luca it really is incredible that we now have 5 genuine international class centres

Dunbar
Jones
Taylor
Scott
Bennett

With Horne not a complete disaster for a 6th choice.

To be fair, the chances of your centres performing well were not enhanced by having Dan Parks at 10

Or Phil (good)Godman.

It is worth saying that these kind of players were my rugby role models in my formative years as a centre/winger - I was doomed from the start!

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:53 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Given the dark days of Morrison, Henderson, Di Rollo and De Luca it really is incredible that we now have 5 genuine international class centres

I still smile when I recall the Scotland/Italy game where these two and Danielli featured for Scotland, while Italy fielded a Robertson & McLean in their back division.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:53 am

George Carlin wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Ruck Inspector, eh?  That's a pretty nasty nickname.  Never heard that applied to him before, but people have mentioned he always looks very clean.
That's been his nickname for his entire career Doc.

Just don't get Edinburgh fans started on him.

They find it very hard to accept that he captained his side to Pro12 victory whilst keeping his knees absolutely spotless and his mum happy that the weekly wash didn't ever threaten to break her machine.

I find it very easy to accept, in fact I mention it all the time!!

I was at a charity dinner earlier in the year and one of the prizes was hospitality for 10 ahead of a Murrayfield international. I started wondering whether I could bid for it and avoid divorce at the same time, but was relieved when they said that Al Kellock would be the host. Wallet back in pocket. If I want to know what it's like to spend a career shouting at people whilst underperforming and generally shirking responsibility, I can have lunch with my old boss.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by fa0019 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:00 am

I think a lot of the Scottish players who weren't part of the amateur/pro cross over and were the first guinea pigs of the 00s SRU pro era were harshly treated by the SRU. They simply weren't ready for professionalism.

It was partly funding but also partly the SRU being a bunch of upper class windbags.

They lost out by getting in stop gaps like Glen Metcalfe, Brendan Laney, the Leslie brothers, Budge Poutney (one of the worst examples ever) etc... I recall he quit because of an invoice he received over a tie.

Sure it helped in the short term but it didn't half hurt development.

Are today's crop any better skill wise? I'd say taking out Hogg I'd say no. But the difference in approach has been massive.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:02 am

Billy V set to play for Sarries this weekend: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39141044

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:04 am

LondonTiger wrote:Billy V set to play for Sarries this weekend: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39141044

If he gets through the Newcastle game unscathed, think Jones will call him up?
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:06 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Billy V set to play for Sarries this weekend: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39141044

If he gets through the Newcastle game unscathed, think Jones will call him up?

Ali Hogg will destroy him....

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by BamBam on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:06 am

Given the injury, I reckon he'd be left with Saracens for another week, but entirely possible he could be in the running for the Ireland game if he looks good

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:06 am

fa0019 wrote:I think a lot of the Scottish players who weren't part of the amateur/pro cross over and were the first guinea pigs of the 00s SRU pro era were harshly treated by the SRU. They simply weren't ready for professionalism.

It was partly funding but also partly the SRU being a bunch of upper class windbags.

They lost out by getting in stop gaps like Glen Metcalfe, Brendan Laney, the Leslie brothers, Budge Poutney (one of the worst examples ever) etc... I recall he quit because of an invoice he received over a tie.

Sure it helped in the short term but it didn't half hurt development.

Are today's crop any better skill wise? I'd say taking out Hogg I'd say no. But the difference in approach has been massive.

Laney maybe but Glen Metcalfe, the Leslie brothers and Pountney were very good players for Scotland.

Pountey quit due to the lack of professionalism and support for the players by the SRU.  What kicked it all off was that there was no water available for their training session so the players had to go and fill water bottles themselves. Sounds like a small thing but was really quite amateurish in what was mean to be a professional organisation.


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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:07 am

BamBam wrote:Given the injury, I reckon he'd be left with Saracens for another week, but entirely possible he could be in the running for the Ireland game if he looks good

Have to agree with this. Will EJ though?

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:11 am

LondonTiger wrote:
BamBam wrote:Given the injury, I reckon he'd be left with Saracens for another week, but entirely possible he could be in the running for the Ireland game if he looks good

Have to agree with this. Will EJ though?

Well I wouldn't want to see it for a few reasons:

1. He's a great player and rushing back from such a hideous knee injury is never smart. We want to see Billy V have a long career. In particular I think the Lions need him fit in the summer.
2. I selfishly don't want to see him back against Scotland because he is a wrecking machine. However playing Newcastle and then playing a very important Test match are 2 distinct levels of intensity.
3. England have done reasonably well without him with Launchberry and Haskell all getting their hands on the ball more and carrying well.

Its a tough one.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by jimbopip on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:18 am

Yet again, oh Festering One, you miss the point. I'll try to explain it to you in the form of a parable...
Eddie Butler tells the story of being in the players' bar after a Wales game with a few grizzled forwards who are discussing the abilities, or otherwise of their current scrum-half; one Rupert St John Moon.
"He doesn't really have a pass on him, does he?" said the first.
"No, not that I've seen.And he can't tackle his way out of a wet paper bag." said the next.
"He's got no pace, he never makes a clean break." opined the third.
"You're right" said the fourth, "but he is a brilliant scrum half"
"oh yes" they all agreed "he really makes a huge difference to the side".

This anecdote could easily be applied to Frodo, as despite being slower than a remedial class in Basildon and suffering severe agoraphobia whenever presented with space around a ruck he is a hugely important, and influential, member of the Scottish team. You could do a statistical analysis of Grant Gilchrist's Pro 12 career and show that in terms of: carries, tackle completion, passes and yards made he is the best second row in the Northern hemisphere but I, and all of the Warrior Nation, would select Big Al every time. There are players who improve a team every time they take to the field, even though it's difficult to identify exactly what they do; I read an article by the people who came up with the Moneyball theory and pointed out that there were journeymen in team sports who when they play the team are more successful and when they sit out the team underperform even though those individuals do not score many points/create assists/ make big tackles. Conversely, very often "star" players do all the headline grabbing things but have very little effect on the team's overall success rate, and their absence leads to a minimal drop in overall performance.
In a nutshell, I've learned to value and appreciate Frodo because he makes a positive difference to the Scotland team (way beyond his individual skill set) so you need to try to get your head out of your nether regions and recognise what Big Al actually contributed to Glasgow.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:21 am

jimbopip wrote:Yet again, oh Festering One, you miss the point. I'll try to explain it to you in the form of a parable...
Eddie Butler tells the story of being in the players' bar after a Wales game with a few grizzled forwards who are discussing the abilities, or otherwise of their current scrum-half; one Rupert St John Moon.
"He doesn't really have a pass on him, does he?" said the first.
"No, not that I've seen.And he can't tackle his way out of a wet paper bag." said the next.
"He's got no pace, he never makes a clean break." opined the third.
"You're right" said the fourth, "but he is a brilliant scrum half"
"oh yes" they all agreed "he really makes a huge difference to the side".

This anecdote could easily be applied to Frodo, as despite being slower than a remedial class in Basildon and suffering severe agoraphobia whenever presented with space around a ruck he is a hugely important, and influential, member of the Scottish team. You could do a statistical analysis of Grant Gilchrist's Pro 12 career and show that in terms of: carries, tackle completion, passes and yards made he is the best second row in the Northern hemisphere but I, and all of the Warrior Nation, would select Big Al every time. There are players who improve a team every time they take to the field, even though it's difficult to identify exactly what they do; I read an article by the people who came up with the Moneyball theory and pointed out that there were journeymen in team sports who when they play the team are more successful and when they sit out the team underperform even though those individuals do not score many points/create assists/ make big tackles. Conversely, very often "star" players do all the headline grabbing things but have very little effect on the team's overall success rate, and their absence leads to a minimal drop in overall performance.
In a nutshell, I've learned to value and appreciate Frodo because he makes a positive difference to the Scotland team (way beyond his individual skill set) so you need to try to get your head out of your nether regions and recognise what Big Al actually contributed to Glasgow.

I think that classes as a bite FES! Yahoo

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by jimbopip on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:22 am

Doh Doh Doh

Damn you and your MFL tricksiness.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by beshocked on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:27 am

jimbopip though saying that do you think Laidlaw was missed vs Wales?

I don't think Laidlaw would have been able to handle the bludgeoning of France either even if fit.

On the other hand I think fans look too much at "leadership" as if it's some magical term that others can't do.

You miss players more if the replacements aren't up to the required level.

Laidlaw's value to the team has been in my opinion to be the primary goal kicker.

Goal kickers are valuable but if someone can do the job just as well......

Halfpenny has been picked for Wales primary for Wales due to his goal kicking and that's where most of his value lies.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:30 am

A bite?

FES has effectively shot a giant fish win a tiny barrel with a fish seaking rocket launcher with anti piscine warheads.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:31 am

beshocked wrote:jimbopip though saying that do you think Laidlaw was missed vs Wales?

I don't think Laidlaw would have been able to handle the bludgeoning of France either even if fit.

On the other hand I think fans look too much at "leadership" as if it's some magical term that others can't do.

You miss players more if the replacements aren't up to the required level.

Laidlaw's value to the team has been in my opinion to be the primary goal kicker.

Goal kickers are valuable but if someone can do the job just as well......

Halfpenny has been picked for Wales primary for Wales due to his goal kicking and that's where most of his value lies.

Beshocked, best stay out of this one mate. This exchange was purely an attempt by FES to enrage Jimbo... it worked quite hilariously Hug
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Scottrf on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:35 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Beshocked, best stay out of this one mate. This exchange was purely an attempt by FES to enrage Jimbo... it worked quite hilariously Hug
It was just an attempt by Beshocked to play down the value of captaincy and champion George over Hartley.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by jimbopip on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:42 am

Beshocked, it's an intangible thing. If the opposition know that any infringements at the breakdown even on the halfway line will mean three points and scoreboard pressure then that must affect their game and also give Wales increased confidence. Therefore Halfpenny's inclusion does improve Wales' chances of winning, irrespective of his personal form.
With Laidlaw, it's been interesting to hear the Scotland players talk about how much they miss his influence on the game. Price is miles quicker around the fringes. Pyrgos has a much better pass than him. But, Laidlaw seems to give the team that sense that he controls the game better; if the team feel confident that they are being led competently they will, in theory, relax and feel more confident themselves.
Until recently, I would have picked Pyrgos every time. But Laidlaw does lead from the front and often seems to drag his team mates along with him. Graham Souness once argued that Kenny Dalglish was a better player than Maradonna because over a season, week in week out, Dalglish would win his team more points than Maradonna.
Hope that helps.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 11:45 am

As an aside I thought Price's passing was poor against Wales - it was very loopy at times with Russell fielding a lot of passes at head height or at his knees.

These split seconds are so important and rugby so hopefully he's been working on tidying that up.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 12:00 pm

Good news - Al Dickinson has returned from injury and is starting for Edinburgh this weekend.

It will almost definitely be too early for him to feature against England however.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by jimbopip on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 12:10 pm

Bench?

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by IanBru on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 12:17 pm

jimbopip wrote:Bench?
The fundamental question is whether a rusty Al Dickinson is a better option for 20 minutes of death-or-glory than a fully-fit Allan Dell.

I really want to say yes - the proof will be this weekend. Bearing in mind that Al's starting, I'm quietly optimistic for him.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 12:33 pm


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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 12:58 pm

Thanks for the explanation Jimbo. At my next performance review at work I'm going to use some of that material:

"Look, what you need to realise is that my contribution is intangible".

Cool

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 1:01 pm

jimbopip wrote:Beshocked, it's an intangible thing. If the opposition know that any infringements at the breakdown even on the halfway line will mean three points and scoreboard pressure then that must affect their game and also give Wales increased confidence. Therefore Halfpenny's inclusion does improve Wales' chances of winning, irrespective of his personal form.

That would make sense if they didn't have Dan Biggar in the side too who is every bit as good as a place kicker.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by jimbopip on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 1:11 pm

No, Mr Harrier, Dan Biggar's unseen contribution to the team is that they go on the field safe in the knowledge that no matter how badly they may behave no-one will be calling them a petulant, tantrum throwing brat after the game. picard

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 1:14 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
jimbopip wrote:Beshocked, it's an intangible thing. If the opposition know that any infringements at the breakdown even on the halfway line will mean three points and scoreboard pressure then that must affect their game and also give Wales increased confidence. Therefore Halfpenny's inclusion does improve Wales' chances of winning, irrespective of his personal form.

That would make sense if they didn't have Dan Biggar in the side too who is every bit as good as a place kicker.

and he has a better kick routine...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb6wQE96Nq0
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by dummy_half on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 2:35 pm

BamBam wrote:Given the injury, I reckon he'd be left with Saracens for another week, but entirely possible he could be in the running for the Ireland game if he looks good
I certainly think the Scotland game is too soon - Billy's been out for quite some time (12 or 13 weeks), so is likely to need a bit of time to get back up to speed. Two games back for Sarries and if he comes though those unscathed we can consider him for the game in Dublin, but with the option of being on the bench or to plan for him to give his all for 50 minutes.

Ideally, I wouldn't be looking to rush him back, but given the mediocrity that Hughes has delivered so far and the likely importance of the game in Dublin, it's something to consider.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by jimbopip on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 3:09 pm

I wonder if Scotland will do a Reverse Vunipola?
Al Dickinson has been out injured for some time but is named in the starting XV for the Luvvies tomorrow. If he comes through that unscathed (doubtful, given he will be carrying the immobile ballast that is Grant Gilchrist for most of the game) what's the chances that he will feature at Twickers?

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by B91212 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 3:16 pm

dummy_half wrote:
BamBam wrote:Given the injury, I reckon he'd be left with Saracens for another week, but entirely possible he could be in the running for the Ireland game if he looks good
I certainly think the Scotland game is too soon - Billy's been out for quite some time (12 or 13 weeks), so is likely to need a bit of time to get back up to speed. Two games back for Sarries and if he comes though those unscathed we can consider him for the game in Dublin, but with the option of being on the bench or to plan for him to give his all for 50 minutes.

Ideally, I wouldn't be looking to rush him back, but given the mediocrity that Hughes has delivered so far and the likely importance of the game in Dublin, it's something to consider.
I think it's testament to both Vinpola's that they have come back from injury seemingly in good condition fitness-wise. Mako went straight back into the Saracens starting line up and played 60+ mins straight up (although I seem to remember there was a decent length stoppage for an injured player), and I thought if anything he even looked a little leaner than earlier in the season. Then the beeb article comments that Billy already looks sharp in training and Jim Hamilton alluded to the same earlier in the week.

Not sure that would have been the case with either of them in the not too distant past.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Scottrf on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 3:18 pm

B91212 wrote:Not sure that would have been the case with either of them in the not too distant past.
Billy said himself that he had a turnaround in attitude thanks to Eddie. He told him that he could be the best 8 in the world, and before that he was lazy and relied on his talent.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 3:20 pm

dummy_half wrote:
BamBam wrote:Given the injury, I reckon he'd be left with Saracens for another week, but entirely possible he could be in the running for the Ireland game if he looks good
I certainly think the Scotland game is too soon - Billy's been out for quite some time (12 or 13 weeks), so is likely to need a bit of time to get back up to speed. Two games back for Sarries and if he comes though those unscathed we can consider him for the game in Dublin, but with the option of being on the bench or to plan for him to give his all for 50 minutes.

Ideally, I wouldn't be looking to rush him back, but given the mediocrity that Hughes has delivered so far and the likely importance of the game in Dublin, it's something to consider.

Well he's expected to play against us up here at KP on Sunday. We'll get an idea of his fitness and power.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Scottrf on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 3:21 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well he's expected to play against us up here at KP on Sunday. We'll get an idea of his fitness and power.
Hopefully doesn't ruin his knees on your fake pitch.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by B91212 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 3:23 pm

Scottrf wrote:
B91212 wrote:Not sure that would have been the case with either of them in the not too distant past.
Billy said himself that he had a turnaround in attitude thanks to Eddie. He told him that he could be the best 8 in the world, and before that he was lazy and relied on his talent.
Great to see. Always want players to reach their full potential, for England and rugby in general.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by B91212 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 3:24 pm

Scottrf wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Well he's expected to play against us up here at KP on Sunday. We'll get an idea of his fitness and power.
Hopefully doesn't ruin his knees on your fake pitch.
It's not like it's a new thing for him!

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by nickj on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 3:27 pm

jimbopip wrote:I wonder if Scotland will do a Reverse Vunipola?
Al Dickinson has been out injured for some time but is named in the starting XV for the Luvvies tomorrow. If he comes through that unscathed (doubtful, given he will be carrying the immobile ballast that is  Grant Gilchrist for most of the game) what's the chances that he will feature at Twickers?

I bloody hope so. It would be great to have him on the bench at very least. It was his foot so hopefully he's not lost too much up top. Prop's don't need feet do they?

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Scottrf on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 3:27 pm

B91212 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Well he's expected to play against us up here at KP on Sunday. We'll get an idea of his fitness and power.
Hopefully doesn't ruin his knees on your fake pitch.
It's not like it's a new thing for him!
Good point Laugh
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by fa0019 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 3:40 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
fa0019 wrote:I think a lot of the Scottish players who weren't part of the amateur/pro cross over and were the first guinea pigs of the 00s SRU pro era were harshly treated by the SRU. They simply weren't ready for professionalism.

It was partly funding but also partly the SRU being a bunch of upper class windbags.

They lost out by getting in stop gaps like Glen Metcalfe, Brendan Laney, the Leslie brothers, Budge Poutney (one of the worst examples ever) etc... I recall he quit because of an invoice he received over a tie.

Sure it helped in the short term but it didn't half hurt development.

Are today's crop any better skill wise? I'd say taking out Hogg I'd say no. But the difference in approach has been massive.

Laney maybe but Glen Metcalfe, the Leslie brothers and Pountney were very good players for Scotland.

Pountey quit due to the lack of professionalism and support for the players by the SRU.  What kicked it all off was that there was no water available for their training session so the players had to go and fill water bottles themselves. Sounds like a small thing but was really quite amateurish in what was mean to be a professional organisation.

I recall him saying they sent him an invoice for a tie if he didn't return it. Typical SRU

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by robbo277 on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 5:05 pm

If Billy starts for Sarries this weekend and comes through strong, I'd rather see him get 25/30 minutes off the bench for England against Scotland to prepare him for a similar or starting role against Ireland.

I'd probably drop Wood to make room.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 7:12 pm

Billy, Mako, Care, Teo and Watson would make a fair impression of being the best bench of replacements in the world I would think. Fantastic impact.

I would also add that George and Sinkler are not far behind.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

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