6N 2017: England vs Scotland

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6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 27 Feb 2017, 5:18 pm

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ENGLAND v SCOTLAND
Saturday 10th March
16:00 GMT
Twickenham Stadium

Live on ITV, RTE, FR2, DMAX

Referee - Matthieu Raynal
AR1 - Romain Poite
AR2 - Marius Mitrea
TMO - Ben Skeen

A. Head to Head

134 Played 134
74 Won 42
18 Drawn 18
42 Lost 74
1,562 Points 1,141

B. Recent Form

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

C. Teams


ENGLAND


Starting XV:

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 58 caps), 14. Jack Nowell  (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps), 13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 31 caps), 12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 50 caps), 11. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 11 caps), 10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 33 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 68 caps), 1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 49 caps), 2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 82 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 72 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 40 caps) , 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 56 caps), 6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 10 caps), 7. James Haskell (Wasps, 73 caps) , 8. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 6 caps).

Finishers

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 15 caps), 17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 40 caps), 18. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 6 caps), 19. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 48 caps), 20. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens 32 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 69 caps), 22. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 6 caps), 23. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps).

SCOTLAND


Starting XV

15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps; 16 tries, 3 pens, 89 points
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps; 15 tries, 75 points
13. Huw Jones (Stormers) – 6 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps; 6 tries, 30 points
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 29 caps; 12 tries, 60 points
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 5 cons, 8 pens, 44 points
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps
2. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 23 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse) – 63 caps; 3 tries, 15 points
5. Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 31 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
6. John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 58 caps; 4 tries, 20 points
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 8 caps; 1 try, 5 points
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps

Substitutes:
16. Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 105 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
17. Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
18. Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
19. Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 27 caps; 1 try, 5 points
20. Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
21. Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 4 tries, 3 pens, 29 points
22. Duncan Weir (Edinburgh Rugby) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 7 cons, 10 pens, 1 drop, 57 points
23. Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 6 tries, 30 points


Last edited by LondonTiger on Thu 09 Mar 2017, 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by beshocked on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 9:44 am

Was impressed by Genge for Tigers vs Quins, his passing for a LH prop was arguably better than some of the England backs at times! Plus his power.

Shows that LH prop is a strong position for England.

England seem to be developing more all round frontrow forwards.

That's where England generally holds the advantage against many sides. In some positions we have great depth.

Lawes,Launchbury,Itoje and Kruis is a great position to be in 2nd row!

LH - Mako,Marler,Mullan, Genge.

Genge isn't a bad 4th choice!

RDW Scotland if I was Scottish I would worry about the potential defensive frailties in that backline. Could be great going forward but England haven't leaked too many tries.

Plus seems to lack a bit of power IMO.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:00 am

beshocked wrote:Was impressed by Genge for Tigers vs Quins, his passing for a LH prop was arguably better than some of the England backs at times! Plus his power.

Shows that LH prop is a strong position for England.

England seem to be developing more all round frontrow forwards.

That's where England generally holds the advantage against many sides. In some positions we have great depth.

Lawes,Launchbury,Itoje and Kruis is a great position to be in 2nd row!

LH - Mako,Marler,Mullan, Genge.

Genge isn't a bad 4th choice!

RDW Scotland if I was Scottish I would worry about the potential defensive frailties in that backline. Could be great going forward but England haven't leaked too many tries.

Plus seems to lack a bit of power IMO.

That's because they have come up against the incredibly blunt but Physical French, the incredibly blunt Wales and an Italian team that went out to spoil for the most part instead of play.

Scotland will be the biggest test for this England defense so far I think. Italy Scored in the wide chanels and I'd wager Hogg, Visser and Seymour are more of a threat than Italy.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:02 am

I'll say now I'd be surprised if England concede more than a couple of tries. Will be interesting to see as Scotland pose the greatest running threat we've faced since we beat Australia 4 times last year.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Scottrf on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:03 am

I don't think France are just blunt. I think they've been throwing it around pretty well, not as well as Scotland I'll grant. Their major problem for me is their organisation and control of territory.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by robbo277 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:10 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Scotland will be the biggest test for this England defense so far I think. Italy Scored in the wide chanels and I'd wager Hogg, Visser and Seymour are more of a threat than Italy.

I think Scotland will pose a bigger threat than we've faced so far, but I think this statement possibly a little bit harsh on Campagnaro.

He is a very classy player and, although possibly a touch behind Hogg, is every bit as good as Visser or Seymour. Regardless of Italy's shortcomings elsewhere, it was Campagnaro who scored in the wide channel, and he did so by skillfully evading a couple tackles and then stepping the fullback. It shows there is perhaps a vulnerability there, but it still took a very good player to exploit it.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:22 am

robbo277 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Scotland will be the biggest test for this England defense so far I think. Italy Scored in the wide chanels and I'd wager Hogg, Visser and Seymour are more of a threat than Italy.

I think Scotland will pose a bigger threat than we've faced so far, but I think this statement possibly a little bit harsh on Campagnaro.

He is a very classy player and, although possibly a touch behind Hogg, is every bit as good as Visser or Seymour. Regardless of Italy's shortcomings elsewhere, it was Campagnaro who scored in the wide channel, and he did so by skillfully evading a couple tackles and then stepping the fullback. It shows there is perhaps a vulnerability there, but it still took a very good player to exploit it.

Yeah he was tremendous from inside centre. Huw Jones is every bit as good though and then he has the lethal strike runners outside. It'll be a cracking match with England having the advantage in power up front but I'd argue Scotland have the better breakdown operators and the better backline.

I really cant call it. England are the favourites despite what Eddie Jones says and the pressure is on them as they chase down this winning record.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by beshocked on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:30 am

Not sure I'd say Scotland have the better breakdown operators. Just depends who England picks to start.

Wouldn't surprise me if Itoje causes Scotland real problems just as he did Italy both at lineout and breakdown. Should be a worry for Scotland that he looked much more comfortable.

If Launchbury,Lawes, Itoje combine to swallow up Russell he could be in trouble.

Scotland might have a better starting backline but England have that superior depth.

I think the pressure is more on individuals rather than England as a whole - more pressure on Hughes,Hartley,Brown,Ford and Farrell.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by captain carrantuohil on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:33 am

I would normally like Scotland's chances on March 11th - they've undoubtedly played better this tournament and have more players somewhere near the top of their game than England at the moment.

What I find even harder to ignore, though, is Scotland's abnormally rancid record at Twickenham. This goes beyond bad into the realms of the other-worldly awful. No valid explanation for it and England have usually managed to beat Scotland at Twickers, even with woeful sides up against far better Scottish ones. It's in the psyche now, I have to believe, after 4 wins in over 100 years, two since the war and none at all since Kajagoogoo were at Number One (my God, I'm old).

I just have a feeling that home advantage will count again, England will teeter on unconvincingly to Dublin and it will be left to Ireland, I hope, to administer the defeat that England's overall form in this campaign will generally have merited.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:34 am

captain carrantuohil wrote:I would normally like Scotland's chances on March 11th - they've undoubtedly played better this tournament and have more players somewhere near the top of their game than England at the moment.

What I find even harder to ignore, though, is Scotland's abnormally rancid record at Twickenham. This goes beyond bad into the realms of the other-worldly awful. No valid explanation for it and England have usually managed to beat Scotland at Twickers, even with woeful sides up against far better Scottish ones. It's in the psyche now, I have to believe, after 4 wins in over 100 years, two since the war and none at all since Kajagoogoo were at Number One (my God, I'm old).

I just have a feeling that home advantage will count again, England will teeter on unconvincingly to Dublin and it will be left to Ireland, I hope, to administer the defeat that England's overall form in this campaign will generally have merited.

This.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:41 am

beshocked wrote:Not sure I'd say Scotland have the better breakdown operators. Just depends who England picks to start.

Wouldn't surprise me if Itoje causes Scotland real problems just as he did Italy both at lineout and breakdown. Should be a worry for Scotland that he looked much more comfortable.

If Launchbury,Lawes, Itoje combine to swallow up Russell he could be in trouble.

Scotland might have a better starting backline but England have that superior depth.

I think the pressure is more on individuals rather than England as a whole - more pressure on Hughes,Hartley,Brown,Ford and Farrell.

I'm not sure I would either. I think they do, but I'm not sure. Certainly Watson, Barclay and Wilson kept Tipuric, Warburton and Moriarty very quiet on Saturday, a feat England failed to do in their match against Wales. For Scotland Watson has been IMO our player of the tournament thusfar.

Sure Hogg has been scoring tries and the Gray brothers have been tackling anything that moves. However Watson has just been an absolute menace. England haven't come up against a player like that yet. They've had to deal with the physicality of the French and Welsh backrow but haven't yet came up against a player with such an apparent disregard for his own safety such as Watson who seems to be virtually immovable once over the ball.

He I think will be a man who'll be well marked at Twickenham if the England Video coaches have anything to say about it.

Again the England backrow appears to be big on power but low on finesse. Barclay, Wilson and Watson are clearly under powered against that monstrous backrow especially with the incredible Itoje at 6. I think that will give us an advantage at the breakdown but again I can't be sure.

It's 2 very different schools of thought in England and Scotland's approach to the breakdown that IMO will make this such a fascinating contest.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Recwatcher16 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:45 am

Seems pretty obvious to me that England will target the Scottish half backs.

The Scottish three quarters are no good without the ball and with fewer opportunities Russell will take more risks and the English defence will then pressurise and capitalise on mistakes. I wonder what the odds are on a Joseph interception try....

I don't buy Barclay and Watson dominating the breakdown either - Pocock and Hooper tried it and Warburton/ Tipuric were given a quite a lot of leeway in Cardiff but at Twickenham this will be unlikely.

Failing that, England should follow the Italian mindset and drop the ball when in the opposing 22 and then squeeze their subsequent scrum for penalties or even penalty tries. Cool

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Scottrf on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:46 am

Lets see if Russell can deal with Lawes in his face Cool
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by TrailApe on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:48 am

This is THE game for me. You Southerners might relish the Welsh games but Scotland are the ones that I want to beat most.

We have History with these Lads.

I'm nervous, we have played crap so far and could get burnt.

I'm not big on listing who I think should be in the Team - in Eddy We Trust - but whoever goes out onto the park had better play to their potential or that bloody Telfer will be honking on about it until they lay him down under his Border turf.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:51 am

TrailApe wrote:This is THE game for me. You Southerners might relish the Welsh games but Scotland are the ones that I want to beat most.

We have History with these Lads.


Awww babes I'm positively blushing! kiss

I hope this thread stays like this, friendly banter like this will make the game in a fortnight all the better!
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by BamBam on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:53 am

Babes? Dear God what's happened to you Jocks

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Recwatcher16 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:57 am

TrailApe wrote:This is THE game for me. You Southerners might relish the Welsh games but Scotland are the ones that I want to beat most.

We have History with these Lads.

I'm nervous, we have played crap so far and could get burnt.

I'm not big on listing who I think should be in the Team - in Eddy We Trust - but whoever goes out onto the park had better play to their potential or that bloody Telfer will be honking on about it until they lay him down under his Border turf.

Ha - you think you have problems - my wife is from Edinburgh and my brother-in-law is a 6ft6 rugby man who goes to most Murrayfield games. My phone will be turned off for a month if Scotland sneak a win.......

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by robbo277 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:57 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Scotland will be the biggest test for this England defense so far I think. Italy Scored in the wide chanels and I'd wager Hogg, Visser and Seymour are more of a threat than Italy.

I think Scotland will pose a bigger threat than we've faced so far, but I think this statement possibly a little bit harsh on Campagnaro.

He is a very classy player and, although possibly a touch behind Hogg, is every bit as good as Visser or Seymour. Regardless of Italy's shortcomings elsewhere, it was Campagnaro who scored in the wide channel, and he did so by skillfully evading a couple tackles and then stepping the fullback. It shows there is perhaps a vulnerability there, but it still took a very good player to exploit it.

Yeah he was tremendous from inside centre. Huw Jones is every bit as good though and then he has the lethal strike runners outside. It'll be a cracking match with England having the advantage in power up front but I'd argue Scotland have the better breakdown operators and the better backline.

I really cant call it. England are the favourites despite what Eddie Jones says and the pressure is on them as they chase down this winning record.

It's beginning to feel like when Arsenal went 49 and out against Manchester United. Now I'm not an Arsenal fan by any stretch of the imagination, but I was willing them to get the milestone. It was just the perfect storm though. United at Old Trafford in the 50th game, Ferguson vs Wenger.

I'm not sure if it will be this match or Dublin, but it feels like a capitulation may be just around the corner.

The potential record-equalling game is the oldest fixture in rugby who haven't won in their neighbour's yard for over 30 years, but playing so much better than they have at any time in my rugby memory.

The potential record-breaking game would be an away Grand Slam game, against a team (probably) chasing the title, with recent experience of stopping an 18 game unbeaten run, and with English memories of 2011 (particularly) and 2013 fresh in the mind.

I really hope I'm wrong (obviously), but I've got a feeling it might happen. And I think if it does happen in the next two games, it will be every bit as ill-tempered as the Manchester United vs Arsenal match was.

It's almost at the stage where I want us to win the Grand Slam, take the record and then lose the first test in Argentina to be shot of the weight of expectation! If you offered me that right now, I'd snap your hand off!

Just hoping the players aren't feeling the pressure. Whistle

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by R!skysports on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:13 am

Whoa there boys and girls

England are MASSIVE favourites for this game.

They are in a record winning run
Played below their best and still won
Have a stronger depth of squad
Had their terrible game and still won easily
Have a strong smothering defence with will be tough for us to combat
Are at home
Will be more physical and we have struggled against power


We can win, and we have a chance, but lets not get carried away that we are favourites.

We will need to play a full game of good stuff (we have only managed it in 2 x halfs so far (Ireland first half, Wales second half) and were poor against France

We have done well for the 2 wins, but need to play a lot better across a whole game to have a chance of winning


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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by EWT Spoons on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:25 am

R!skysports wrote:Whoa there boys and girls

England are MASSIVE favourites for this game.

They are in a record winning run
Played below their best and still won
Have a stronger depth of squad
Had their terrible game and still won easily
Have a strong smothering defence with will be tough for us to combat
Are at home
Will be more physical and we have struggled against power


We can win, and we have a chance, but lets not get carried away that we are favourites.

We will need to play a full game of good stuff (we have only managed it in 2 x halfs so far (Ireland first half, Wales second half) and were poor against France

We have done well for the 2 wins, but need to play a lot better across a whole game to have a chance of winning


100% agree with this.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by TrailApe on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:32 am

Riskysports - if that was an attempt to appease the Gods of Fate

4/10

Must Try Harder

The English have just scraped past in their games so far and nearly got beat by Italy in Twickenham FFS - they were trailing by 5 at half time and just squeaked past in the last ten minutes. They seem to be lacking in energy and ideas. The Welsh got 8 turnovers against us, I reckon the Scots will get more and the Scots have the backline to turn that into points, this game will mark the fact that Eddie's honeymoon period is over.

Scotland by 8.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:39 am

TrailApe wrote:Riskysports - if that was an attempt to appease the Gods of Fate

4/10

Must Try Harder

The English have just scraped past in their games so far and nearly got beat by Italy in Twickenham FFS - they were trailing by 5 at half time and just squeaked past in the last ten minutes. They seem to be lacking in energy and ideas. The Welsh got 8 turnovers against us, I reckon the Scots will get more and the Scots have the backline to turn that into points, this game will mark the fact that Eddie's honeymoon period is over.

Scotland by 8.

Denying an English LBP we Twickenham?? I'd bite your arm off at the shoulder for that!

If that was an effort to appease the Gods of fate it was worse than R!skies lol 2/10
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:40 am

As a Scottish man living in London now, and with an English born dad, it perhaps isn't much of a surprise that I don't hold any animosity to all things English. Indeed before the championship I was wanting to beat the Welsh more than the English!

Of course there have been many English players that I have disliked over the years - I almost broke up with the wife when she said Austen Healy looked hot on Strictly Come Dancing - but they were typically players that everyone else hated anyway.

Indeed I was even cheering England on during the 2003 world cup.

Saying that - I hope we absolutely smash the Brexit voting, tea drinking, polite queue forming, morris dancing, Cricket playing, TOWIE watching, real ale drinking, pie and mash eating, public transport complaining, tube striking, southern rail shambles-ing, Ant and Dec loving barstewards!!!! Braveheart

Ahem.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:42 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:As a Scottish man living in London now, and with an English born dad, it perhaps isn't much of a surprise that I don't hold any animosity to all things English.  Indeed before the championship I was wanting to beat the Welsh more than the English!

Of course there have been many English players that I have disliked over the years - I almost broke up with the wife when she said Austen Healy looked hot on Strictly Come Dancing - but they were typically players that everyone else hated anyway.

Indeed I was even cheering England on during the 2003 world cup.

Saying that - I hope we absolutely smash the Brexit voting, tea drinking, polite queue forming, morris dancing, Cricket playing, TOWIE watching, real ale drinking, pie and mash eating, public transport complaining, tube striking, southern rail shambles-ing, Ant and Dec loving barstewards!!!!  Braveheart

Ahem.

Don't hold back admin boy, you have a reputation to consider! laughing
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by beshocked on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:48 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Not sure I'd say Scotland have the better breakdown operators. Just depends who England picks to start.

Wouldn't surprise me if Itoje causes Scotland real problems just as he did Italy both at lineout and breakdown. Should be a worry for Scotland that he looked much more comfortable.

If Launchbury,Lawes, Itoje combine to swallow up Russell he could be in trouble.

Scotland might have a better starting backline but England have that superior depth.

I think the pressure is more on individuals rather than England as a whole - more pressure on Hughes,Hartley,Brown,Ford and Farrell.

I'm not sure I would either. I think they do, but I'm not sure. Certainly Watson, Barclay and Wilson kept Tipuric, Warburton and Moriarty very quiet on Saturday, a feat England failed to do in their match against Wales. For Scotland Watson has been IMO our player of the tournament thusfar.

Sure Hogg has been scoring tries and the Gray brothers have been tackling anything that moves. However Watson has just been an absolute menace. England haven't come up against a player like that yet. They've had to deal with the physicality of the French and Welsh backrow but haven't yet came up against a player with such an apparent disregard for his own safety such as Watson who seems to be virtually immovable once over the ball.

He I think will be a man who'll be well marked at Twickenham if the England Video coaches have anything to say about it.

Again the England backrow appears to be big on power but low on finesse. Barclay, Wilson and Watson are clearly under powered against that monstrous backrow especially with the incredible Itoje at 6. I think that will give us an advantage at the breakdown but again I can't be sure.

It's 2 very different schools of thought in England and Scotland's approach to the breakdown that IMO will make this such a fascinating contest.

ruggerradge2611 things to take into account -

Wales were at home in front of their home fans playing against arguably the team they most relish beating.

England had a inexperienced starting backrow. Itoje is learning all the time, that's the frightening thing. Sure it's only Italy perhaps but he caused the Italians all sorts of problems. He was influential and keeping him quiet for 80 minutes is not easy. Also there's no guarantee Hughes will be as poor as he was vs Italy.


It's inevitable that Wales would have been less fired up and a bit disappointed due to that loss at home.

Itoje isn't low on finesse. He's got power and a good brain too. Sure he still gives away penalties but it's because he competes and disrupts but more often than many others.

Itoje is 2nd in turnovers won with 6.

Watson and Barclay have got 3 each -

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/39180.php#.WLVhyPmLRPY

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Recwatcher16 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:52 am

Apart from the Brexit voting, the rest are quite quaint !!
I don't get Towie where everyone has fake tans but then Essex is a funny place anyway......

Still haven't been convinced by anything suggested,, to see a Scottish win....tempting fate, I know.....

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:58 am

Recwatcher16 wrote:Apart from the Brexit voting, the rest are quite quaint !!
I don't get Towie where everyone has fake tans but then Essex is a funny place anyway......

Still haven't been convinced by anything suggested,, to see a Scottish win....tempting fate, I know.....

I'm just waiting for the Scottish stereotype rant from someone! Very Happy

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by robbo277 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:04 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Not sure I'd say Scotland have the better breakdown operators. Just depends who England picks to start.

Wouldn't surprise me if Itoje causes Scotland real problems just as he did Italy both at lineout and breakdown. Should be a worry for Scotland that he looked much more comfortable.

If Launchbury,Lawes, Itoje combine to swallow up Russell he could be in trouble.

Scotland might have a better starting backline but England have that superior depth.

I think the pressure is more on individuals rather than England as a whole - more pressure on Hughes,Hartley,Brown,Ford and Farrell.

I'm not sure I would either. I think they do, but I'm not sure. Certainly Watson, Barclay and Wilson kept Tipuric, Warburton and Moriarty very quiet on Saturday, a feat England failed to do in their match against Wales. For Scotland Watson has been IMO our player of the tournament thusfar.

Sure Hogg has been scoring tries and the Gray brothers have been tackling anything that moves. However Watson has just been an absolute menace. England haven't come up against a player like that yet. They've had to deal with the physicality of the French and Welsh backrow but haven't yet came up against a player with such an apparent disregard for his own safety such as Watson who seems to be virtually immovable once over the ball.

He I think will be a man who'll be well marked at Twickenham if the England Video coaches have anything to say about it.

Again the England backrow appears to be big on power but low on finesse. Barclay, Wilson and Watson are clearly under powered against that monstrous backrow especially with the incredible Itoje at 6. I think that will give us an advantage at the breakdown but again I can't be sure.

It's 2 very different schools of thought in England and Scotland's approach to the breakdown that IMO will make this such a fascinating contest.

I think when we talk breakdown operators (and who has the best), it's important to consider relative roles.

Haskell at 7 has one important job on our ball. His carrying is a bonus, but his main role is to shoot off the scrum or the back of a line-out and smash the first Scottish player looking to threaten our ball - and I'd say he's better than most at doing that. He's not going to win 3/4 turnovers himself, but if he does this job well neither will Watson.

That's where the major battle will be in the back row will be. Different types of players, but it will be interesting to see who tops that battle.

I do worry about Hughes getting chop tackled and turned over though, especially from slow ball. I would be tempted to start Clifford and get him carrying in the wider channels as a game plan, with Hughes to come on against tired legs and try to make big yards late on, when players are slower to get low and around the ankles. England's support game will have to be spot on.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by EWT Spoons on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:08 pm

beshocked wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Not sure I'd say Scotland have the better breakdown operators. Just depends who England picks to start.

Wouldn't surprise me if Itoje causes Scotland real problems just as he did Italy both at lineout and breakdown. Should be a worry for Scotland that he looked much more comfortable.

If Launchbury,Lawes, Itoje combine to swallow up Russell he could be in trouble.

Scotland might have a better starting backline but England have that superior depth.

I think the pressure is more on individuals rather than England as a whole - more pressure on Hughes,Hartley,Brown,Ford and Farrell.

I'm not sure I would either. I think they do, but I'm not sure. Certainly Watson, Barclay and Wilson kept Tipuric, Warburton and Moriarty very quiet on Saturday, a feat England failed to do in their match against Wales. For Scotland Watson has been IMO our player of the tournament thusfar.

Sure Hogg has been scoring tries and the Gray brothers have been tackling anything that moves. However Watson has just been an absolute menace. England haven't come up against a player like that yet. They've had to deal with the physicality of the French and Welsh backrow but haven't yet came up against a player with such an apparent disregard for his own safety such as Watson who seems to be virtually immovable once over the ball.

He I think will be a man who'll be well marked at Twickenham if the England Video coaches have anything to say about it.

Again the England backrow appears to be big on power but low on finesse. Barclay, Wilson and Watson are clearly under powered against that monstrous backrow especially with the incredible Itoje at 6. I think that will give us an advantage at the breakdown but again I can't be sure.

It's 2 very different schools of thought in England and Scotland's approach to the breakdown that IMO will make this such a fascinating contest.

ruggerradge2611 things to take into account -

Wales were at home in front of their home fans playing against arguably the team they most relish beating.

England had a inexperienced starting backrow. Itoje is learning all the time, that's the frightening thing. Sure it's only Italy perhaps but he caused the Italians all sorts of problems. He was influential and keeping him quiet for 80 minutes is not easy. Also there's no guarantee Hughes will be as poor as he was vs Italy.


It's inevitable that Wales would have been less fired up and a bit disappointed due to that loss at home.

Itoje isn't low on finesse. He's got power and a good brain too. Sure he still gives away penalties but it's because he competes and disrupts but more often than many others.

Itoje is 2nd in turnovers won with 6.

Watson and Barclay have got 3 each
-

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/39180.php#.WLVhyPmLRPY

Taking nothing away from Itoje, but just on Radge's point, you could arguably suggest Scotland overall have the better breakdown operators considering as you point out Itoje is 2nd in turnovers with 6, he's 2nd to Dunbar (a centre) with 7.  Then you also factor in Watson and Barclay haven't played every game.  Watson was subbed for Barclay after 60 mins against Ireland, and then was a 20 odd minute sub against Wales.

Now I still think England will win and undoubtedly Itoje is some player and will probably play a key role for England, but I wouldn't necessarily use the breakdown to suggest he's a better player than what Scotland have in that space.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:11 pm

The mentality is different.
For England its about getting to that final day with their destiny still very much in their hands.  So the next game is a stepping stone.
For Scotland, every subsequent game is becoming the biggest game of their lives.

All they need is another all-or-nothing game of their lives to get to the final all-or-nothing game of their lives.  And they're lucky in that the more important all-or-nothing game is the one coming next.  Italy could beat them but chances are they can afford to really let loose in the English game, empty the tanks and let the Italy game take care of itself

That's been quite pointed now actually, as I think about it.  The games, many of them, have been quite competitive - but have any of the teams really experienced an out and out fist fight where players are coming off in tatters, exhausted and worried about making the next game.  It's been a relatively mild 6N in terms of blood thirsty ferocity so far.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by TrailApe on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:12 pm

England's support game will have to be spot on

everything has to be spot on, and so far it's been anything but.

I'm praying that it's all a cunning plan by that sneaky Aussie and we've been hiding our lights under multiple bushels hoping to ambush the Scots and then bushwack the Irish.

Doubt it though...


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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by jimbopip on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:16 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:
R!skysports wrote:Whoa there boys and girls

England are MASSIVE favourites for this game.

They are in a record winning run
Played below their best and still won
Have a stronger depth of squad
Had their terrible game and still won easily
Have a strong smothering defence with will be tough for us to combat
Are at home
Will be more physical and we have struggled against power


We can win, and we have a chance, but lets not get carried away that we are favourites.

We will need to play a full game of good stuff (we have only managed it in 2 x halfs so far (Ireland first half, Wales second half) and were poor against France

We have done well for the 2 wins, but need to play a lot better across a whole game to have a chance of winning


100% agree with this.

Very much in agreement with the Risky one here.
I was at Twickers two years ago and while we were ahead at half time we really were hanging on. Some Engerlanders sitting beside us asked if I fancied our chances and I told them to relax and start enjoying the win. Stevie Wonder could see that Matt Scott replacing the injured Alex Dunbar at the eleventh hour had really Donald Ducked our defence; he looked as lost as Donald Trump on an International Diplomacy For Beginners Seminar.

So, what has changed this year?

Scotland
We are much better in almost every area of the field. Granted we are putting out our third choice props, and if fit Nel and Dickinson would be starting, but on the upside the enforced selection of Shrek and Ragnar means Fraser Brown starts ahead of Mr Chinhook which gives us a much more mobile and dynamic set of forwards. (This of course can be a negative if the front row is mainly mobile in a backwards direction at scrum time). In the backs we seem to have discovered a patience and maturity which means we tend to come away with points from most visits to our opponents 22, rather than panic and cough up position 50% of the time.

England
Without rehashing everything which has been said about the Jones boy I'll just add this : so far this 6N England have looked like a team who are bloody difficult to beat. Against France and, though to a lesser extent, Wales they were under the cosh for large parts of the game and could have buckled and lost. Even against Italy, the pressure of being behind, at home, could have caused the kind of nerves and self-doubt that can lead to an upset. But no, they refuse to lose and just keep doing what they are good at until they get their chance to put points on the board. Then they win.

Prediction
If Scotland have the kind of first 40 they had against Ireland, they can win. If they have the first 40 they had against Wales they will lose, heavily. If, somehow, they contrive to have a full 80 minutes playing to their potential they will run England off the park.
If England actually take the game to Scotland (which they didn't really against France or Wales) rather than counter punching, then I think it will be England's day.
England favourites, just, but as Damon Runyon said, "Long ago I am coming to the conclusion that everything in this world is 6 to 5 against" Braveheart

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:16 pm

SecretFly wrote:The mentality is different.
For England its about getting to that final day with their destiny still very much in their hands.  So the next game is a stepping stone.
For Scotland, every subsequent game is becoming the biggest game of their lives.

All they need is another all-or-nothing game of their lives to get to the final all-or-nothing game of their lives.  And they're lucky in that the more important all-or-nothing game is the one coming next.  Italy could beat them but chances are they can afford to really let loose in the English game, empty the tanks and let the Italy game take care of itself

That's been quite pointed now actually, as I think about it.  The games, many of them, have been quite competitive - but have any of the teams really experienced an out and out fist fight where players are coming off in tatters, exhausted and worried about making the next game.  It's been a relatively mild 6N in terms of blood thirsty ferocity so far.

The France game was absolutely brutal for us - we lost our captain and main ball carrier and apparently 2/3rd of the squad would have been struggling to be fit if we had a game the week after.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by IanBru on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:21 pm

Oh god, I'm feeling sick about this match already. I've been looking at the various permutations for Round 5 based on Scotland winning next week, and however I look at it the Twickenham fixture is the biggest game in years for Scottish rugby. Whether we rise to the occasion or crumble will be a big sign of how this team has progressed.

On RDW's point, I live in England and I honestly quite like the English (Inverdale, Farage, Corbyn and Matt Dawson aside), but the idea of supporting England at rugby is just so... wrong, that I can't bring myself to do it! Of course, my girlfriend is a huge England rugby fan so one of us will be happy at Twickenham next Saturday.

Incidentally, I listened to a really good interview with Billy Vunipola on the Blood & Mud podcast (highly recommend it to everyone, actually) - does anyone know if he'll be fit in two weeks?
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by SecretFly on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:22 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
SecretFly wrote:The mentality is different.
For England its about getting to that final day with their destiny still very much in their hands.  So the next game is a stepping stone.
For Scotland, every subsequent game is becoming the biggest game of their lives.

All they need is another all-or-nothing game of their lives to get to the final all-or-nothing game of their lives.  And they're lucky in that the more important all-or-nothing game is the one coming next.  Italy could beat them but chances are they can afford to really let loose in the English game, empty the tanks and let the Italy game take care of itself

That's been quite pointed now actually, as I think about it.  The games, many of them, have been quite competitive - but have any of the teams really experienced an out and out fist fight where players are coming off in tatters, exhausted and worried about making the next game.  It's been a relatively mild 6N in terms of blood thirsty ferocity so far.

The France game was absolutely brutal for us - we lost our captain and main ball carrier and apparently 2/3rd of the squad would have been struggling to be fit if we had a game the week after.

Yeah...maybe I'm just becoming insensitive to it all. Yes, Scotland did have a bruiser there - accepted. But France against Ireland, we were all expecting stretchers all over the place, and it was sometimes hot but...well, for me, the intensity hasn't been the same, if the competitiveness has increased.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by robbo277 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:22 pm

TrailApe wrote:
England's support game will have to be spot on

everything has to be spot on, and so far it's been anything but.

I'm praying that it's all a cunning plan by that sneaky Aussie and we've been hiding our lights under multiple bushels hoping to ambush the Sots and then bushwack the Irish.

Doubt it though...

Quite, but what I meant was in counter to a very specific threat by Scotland, I'd say the support game is the most important.

Clean, breakdown turnovers, that they are very capable of winning and with their outside backs, will mean tries.

I'd say as a general rule it would probably be better to concede the penalty against Scotland then allow them a clean steal. A clean steal by them would probably be more devastating to us than a loose kick.

So while we don't want to drop the ball, give away penalties, or kick loosely, I'd say that getting the support play right is the most important thing, because it could quite easily result in 14 point swings.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by jimbopip on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:24 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
SecretFly wrote:The mentality is different.
For England its about getting to that final day with their destiny still very much in their hands.  So the next game is a stepping stone.
For Scotland, every subsequent game is becoming the biggest game of their lives.

All they need is another all-or-nothing game of their lives to get to the final all-or-nothing game of their lives.  And they're lucky in that the more important all-or-nothing game is the one coming next.  Italy could beat them but chances are they can afford to really let loose in the English game, empty the tanks and let the Italy game take care of itself

That's been quite pointed now actually, as I think about it.  The games, many of them, have been quite competitive - but have any of the teams really experienced an out and out fist fight where players are coming off in tatters, exhausted and worried about making the next game.  It's been a relatively mild 6N in terms of blood thirsty ferocity so far.

The France game was absolutely brutal for us - we lost our captain and main ball carrier and his replacement was carried off after a brief appearance; no wonder hors de combat is a French euphemism and apparently 2/3rd of the squad would have been struggling to be fit if we had a game the week after.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:41 pm


The whole England team level has been down on where it has been, and they need to up their level massively, as simple as that. That raw physicality seems to be missing. But Haskell has had 80 mins now, Mako is back so that should help a bit.

It makes me wonder just how physical Kruis and Billy must be...

I'd eat my hat if Scotland don't throw one or two tackle only scenarios in just to mix it up a bit but England should be prepared for that.

And Farrell wont have that bad a day again for a long time.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:43 pm

My biggest worry is that England have barely got out of 2nd gear for quite a while now and are due a big performance sooner rather than later - this could happen against Scotland and we may be on a bit of a backlash.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by R!skysports on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:47 pm

Can we please also put this Itoje as a back rower to bed

he has played in the second row, regardless of the number on his back


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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:48 pm

Its going to be an interesting one RDW.

Scotland have played very well though and have players with x-factor. If England don't up their game they'll be beaten simple as that.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:48 pm

R!skysports wrote:Can we please also put this Itoje as a back rower to bed

he has played in the second row, regardless of the number on his back


At scrum time yes but in the loose he's been playing like a back rower which Lawes definitely hasn't been doing.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Poorfour on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:51 pm

I think Scotland are going to struggle for primary possession. The scrum was under huge pressure against France, and England have a near full strength scrum and strong replacements. Scotland made good ground harrying the Welsh lineout, but I think England's is likely to be more secure and they have a good chance to disrupt the Scotland throw.

That suggests to me that for England the support game, as robbo has said, and the precision of kicking and kick chase need to be stronger than it has to date.

But I also think this England side is a tough side to break; right now, they make too many mistakes to be really on the top of their game, but one important way in which they are like the All Blacks is that they are patient and don't try to force the game. They play as if they always believe they can find a way to win, something that even the 2003 squad didn't gain until much later in their development.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:53 pm

Scottrf wrote:Lets see if Russell can deal with Lawes in his face Cool

He'll cope just fine.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by lostinwales on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:53 pm

TrailApe wrote:
England's support game will have to be spot on

everything has to be spot on, and so far it's been anything but.

I'm praying that it's all a cunning plan by that sneaky Aussie and we've been hiding our lights under multiple bushels hoping to ambush the Scots and then bushwack the Irish.

Doubt it though...

Its not quite fair. When we have sparked into life we have been absolutely lethal. Its just that we haven't been 'sparking' too often - or have been leaving it very late to do so.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by beshocked on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:54 pm

R!skysports wrote:Can we please also put this Itoje as a back rower to bed

he has played in the second row, regardless of the number on his back


Who is playing in the backrow then? Lawes?

Itoje packs down in the scrum in the 2nd row because he's supposedly a better scrummager than Lawes. Itoje around the field operates more like a backrower.

RDW Scotland I don't think that will be the case. Too many England players out of form. As long as England are within 7 points of Scotland with 20 minutes to go I'd back England to win every time though.

To win - I think Scotland need to have a 10 + lead with 20 to go IMO as the inevitable England surge from the bench should happen.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:56 pm

Poorfour wrote:I think Scotland are going to struggle for primary possession. The scrum was under huge pressure against France, and England have a near full strength scrum and strong replacements. Scotland made good ground harrying the Welsh lineout, but I think England's is likely to be more secure and they have a good chance to disrupt the Scotland throw.

That suggests to me that for England the support game, as robbo has said, and the precision of kicking and kick chase need to be stronger than it has to date.

But I also think this England side is a tough side to break; right now, they make too many mistakes to be really on the top of their game, but one important way in which they are like the All Blacks is that they are patient and don't try to force the game. They play as if they always believe they can find a way to win, something that even the 2003 squad didn't gain until much later in their development.

I agree with this point. We seem to be improving our efficiency with opportunities. That's one thing the AB's have held over everyone in the world...when they get one chance...BAM they score. That's why they're so lethal...even with 1-2 mins left on the clock.
They know if they get a chance, they will score simple as that.


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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:58 pm

beshocked wrote:
R!skysports wrote:Can we please also put this Itoje as a back rower to bed

he has played in the second row, regardless of the number on his back


Who is playing in the backrow then? Lawes?

Itoje packs down in the scrum in the 2nd row because he's supposedly a better scrummager than Lawes. Itoje around the field operates more like a backrower.

RDW Scotland I don't think that will be the case. Too many England players out of form. As long as England are within 7 points of Scotland with 20 minutes to go I'd back England to win every time though.

To win - I think Scotland need to have a 10 + lead with 20 to go IMO as the inevitable England surge from the bench should happen.

Doesn't he play like that normally? Wink

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by Poorfour on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:59 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I agree with this point. We seem to be improving our efficiency with opportunities. That's one thing the AB's have held over everyone in the world...when they get one chance...BAM they score. That's why they're so lethal...even with 1-2 mins left on the clock.
They know if they get a chance, they will score simple as that.


And England are now quite good at doing exactly the same with 1-2 minutes left on the clock. It's the other 78 I worry about...

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 1:01 pm

Poorfour wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:

I agree with this point. We seem to be improving our efficiency with opportunities. That's one thing the AB's have held over everyone in the world...when they get one chance...BAM they score. That's why they're so lethal...even with 1-2 mins left on the clock.
They know if they get a chance, they will score simple as that.


And England are now quite good at doing exactly the same with 1-2 minutes left on the clock. It's the other 78 I worry about...

Imagine how good we'd be if we put an 80 min performance in Wink

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland

Post by robbo277 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 1:03 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Poorfour wrote:I think Scotland are going to struggle for primary possession. The scrum was under huge pressure against France, and England have a near full strength scrum and strong replacements. Scotland made good ground harrying the Welsh lineout, but I think England's is likely to be more secure and they have a good chance to disrupt the Scotland throw.

That suggests to me that for England the support game, as robbo has said, and the precision of kicking and kick chase need to be stronger than it has to date.

But I also think this England side is a tough side to break; right now, they make too many mistakes to be really on the top of their game, but one important way in which they are like the All Blacks is that they are patient and don't try to force the game. They play as if they always believe they can find a way to win, something that even the 2003 squad didn't gain until much later in their development.

I agree with this point. We seem to be improving our efficiency with opportunities. That's one thing the AB's have held over everyone in the world...when they get one chance...BAM they score. That's why they're so lethal...even with 1-2 mins left on the clock.
They know if they get a chance, they will score simple as that.


The other thing is, other teams know if they get a chance, they will score. This helps build pressure on the other team, they start to doubt themselves, and they'll be torn between trying to kill the game and trying to hold out, which will invite pressure on them.

It's no surprise that the last 2 NH teams to beat the All Blacks haven't squeaked past them by a score, but beat them by 11 and 19 points, and taken themselves above the one score threshold.

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