Why I'm happy to keep the Second Amendment....

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 10:56 am

I am a Liberal.....I'm a huge believer in Planned Parenthood and that alone means I couldn't ever vote Republican.  But I have a problem with those liberals that are vehemently against the Second Amendment.......

In the wake of Sandy Hook.... Obama commissioned a $10 million study by the CDC into Gun crime........A study he later tried to lose....

Here are the findings...

1. Armed citizens are less likely to be assaulted by an attacker.

2. Mass shootings and accidental firearm deaths are declining.

3. Stolen guns and retail/gun show purchases account for very little crime.

4. Suicide accounts for the majority of gun related deaths....

They came to the conclusion that "16 to a 100 times more often guns are used to save lives than take lives..".....

FBI statistics also show that 170 million new guns have been purchased since 1991 and the murder rate has dropped 50%.....

We can add in the right to bear arms against Tyranny etc and the right of the individual to protect his family and property.....


I'm very Liberal but not when it comes to security.......Good morning and Hope you're well !!. thumbsup

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:01 am

Strange thread with a guy in the news now for shooting 3 people because he thinks they might be immigrants.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 11:08 am

Scottrf wrote:Strange thread with a guy in the news now for shooting 3 people because he thinks they might be immigrants.

Not really........People get killed every day in the uK.  

It's only news because it suits the narrative....The USA is racist and so is the President.

Though I do hope they throw the key away on this idiot.

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Post by superflyweight on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:24 pm

Should the kids at Sandy Hook have been armed then?

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:27 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Strange thread with a guy in the news now for shooting 3 people because he thinks they might be immigrants.

Not really........People get killed every day in the uK.
When was the last triple murder in the UK?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:32 pm

I refer you to the OP.....When it comes to mass shootings..

It's a report commissioned by the President which makes a decent argument for the retention of the second amendment......

I haven't implied it was a perfect amendment...

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Post by superflyweight on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:39 pm

Americans are 10 times more likely to be killed by guns than people in other developed countries, a new study finds.

Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the United States' gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher. And, even though the United States' suicide rate is similar to other countries, the nation's gun-related suicide rate is eight times higher than other high-income countries, researchers said.

The study was published online Feb. 1 in The American Journal of Medicine.

"Overall, our results show that the U.S., which has the most firearms per capita in the world, suffers disproportionately from firearms compared with other high-income countries," said study author Erin Grinshteyn, an assistant professor at the School of Community Health Science at the University of Nevada-Reno. "These results are consistent with the hypothesis that our firearms are killing us rather than protecting us," she said in a journal news release.

The review of 2010 World Health Organization data also revealed that despite having a similar rate of nonlethal crimes as those countries, the United States has a much higher rate of deadly violence, mostly due to the higher rate of gun-related murders.

The researchers also found that compared to people in the other high-income nations, Americans are seven times more likely to die from violence and six times more likely to be accidentally killed with a gun.

"More than two-thirds of the homicides in the U.S. are firearm homicides and studies have suggested that the non-gun homicide rate in the U.S. may be high because the gun homicide rate is high," Grinshteyn said.

"For example, offenders take into account the threat posed by their adversaries. Individuals are more likely to have lethal intent if they anticipate that their adversaries will be armed," she explained.

Even though it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the United States accounted for 82 percent of all gun deaths. The United States also accounted for 90 percent of all women killed by guns, the study found. Ninety-one percent of children under 14 who died by gun violence were in the United States. And 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed by guns were in the United States, the study found.


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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:42 pm

Nice try Truss. It's a nonsense Amendment in the modern World and you know it. It's being used and abused by the NRA et al.

Suicides by firearm are OK are they?

I suggest to you that the Second Amendment isn't suitable for a ~300m population where plenty of them are poorly educated, extreme in their religious/political views and where assault rifles and high volume magazines are easily available. Why should the bar for firearm ownership be the lowest common denominator? Lunacy, but there'll never be agreement until something so horrendous happens the clamour becomes overwhelming.

The Amendment was written when, in the light of what firearms norm and in the context of what sort of global political norms? It's clearly not fit for purpose anymore, if it ever really was.
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Post by superflyweight on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:43 pm

Why I'm happy to keep the Second Amendment.... Article-2344012-1A63B605000005DC-481_634x792

God bless the 2nd Amendment. God bless 'Murica!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:51 pm

superflyweight wrote:
Americans are 10 times more likely to be killed by guns than people in other developed countries, a new study finds.

Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the United States' gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher. And, even though the United States' suicide rate is similar to other countries, the nation's gun-related suicide rate is eight times higher than other high-income countries, researchers said.

The study was published online Feb. 1 in The American Journal of Medicine.

"Overall, our results show that the U.S., which has the most firearms per capita in the world, suffers disproportionately from firearms compared with other high-income countries," said study author Erin Grinshteyn, an assistant professor at the School of Community Health Science at the University of Nevada-Reno. "These results are consistent with the hypothesis that our firearms are killing us rather than protecting us," she said in a journal news release.

The review of 2010 World Health Organization data also revealed that despite having a similar rate of nonlethal crimes as those countries, the United States has a much higher rate of deadly violence, mostly due to the higher rate of gun-related murders.

The researchers also found that compared to people in the other high-income nations, Americans are seven times more likely to die from violence and six times more likely to be accidentally killed with a gun.

"More than two-thirds of the homicides in the U.S. are firearm homicides and studies have suggested that the non-gun homicide rate in the U.S. may be high because the gun homicide rate is high," Grinshteyn said.

"For example, offenders take into account the threat posed by their adversaries. Individuals are more likely to have lethal intent if they anticipate that their adversaries will be armed," she explained.

Even though it has half the population of the other 22 nations combined, the United States accounted for 82 percent of all gun deaths. The United States also accounted for 90 percent of all women killed by guns, the study found. Ninety-one percent of children under 14 who died by gun violence were in the United States. And 92 percent of young people between ages 15 and 24 killed by guns were in the United States, the study found.


My argument is in the keeping of the second amendment in an out of control gun culture using the CDC and FBI as sources......

Not that I'd prefer a gun culture......

It's a very interesting read and somewhat contradictory to my piece I'll concede that.....

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 12:55 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Nice try Truss. It's a nonsense Amendment in the modern World and you know it. It's being used and abused by the NRA et al.

Suicides by firearm are OK are they?

I suggest to you that the Second Amendment isn't suitable for a ~300m population where plenty of them are poorly educated, extreme in their religious/political views and where assault rifles and high volume magazines are easily available. Why should the bar for firearm ownership be the lowest common denominator? Lunacy, but there'll never be agreement until something so horrendous happens the clamour becomes overwhelming.

The Amendment was written when, in the light of what firearms norm and in the context of what sort of global political norms? It's clearly not fit for purpose anymore, if it ever really was.

It's not a modern amendment and I've never said it was......

Just pointing out with sources that more guns seem to work better than less in a gun culture.......The CDC and FBI statistics show that.

The title is Keeping the second amendment not writing one in..

Now I'm getting some lunch and I'm going to be naughty... egg devil

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 1:14 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Now I'm getting some lunch and I'm going to be naughty... egg devil

You're having devilled eggs for lunch?

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Post by Hero on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 4:51 pm

How many mass shootings have taken place in Australia since Port Arthur and the law changes there?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 5:01 pm

Australian population.....25 million.

U.S population............326 million..

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Post by Hero on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 5:18 pm

And?
Firearm homicides and suicides have both dramatically fallen in Australia per 100,000 since new gun laws were introduced due to Port Arthur.

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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 6:05 pm

Stop using hard evidence.

It simply doesn't stack up against ideology and obfuscation.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 6:37 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Stop using hard evidence.

It simply doesn't stack up against ideology and obfuscation.

I refer my honorable friend to the OP.......An Obama commissioned study and FBI statistics.....

Hard evidence and Obfuscation is in the eye of the beholder......I'm not a gun lover by any means......


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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 6:38 pm

Your fapping over the second amendment suggests otherwise Wink

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Post by Hero on Tue 28 Feb 2017, 7:27 pm

Here's some more facts for ya then from the CDC...

Each year 30,000 Americans die in gun related incidents. Of that 2/3rds are suicide.

Between 2000 and 2014 the US had 133 mass shootings.
In the same time period; China, UK, Australia, Mexico, Canada, France, Germany, Norway, Finland and Switzerland combined had... 23.
Due to the size of the US it doesn't top the number of deaths per 100k population as incidents such as the one that occurred in Norway but the US still has a higher rate of 0.15 mass shooting fatalities per 100k compared to 0.02 in the UK and 0.01 in Australia.
The homicide rate in the US also vastly outnumbers that in other countries with tougher laws with 4.7 deaths per 100k compared to the UK 1 and Australia 1.1 so the line of guns being both protection and a deterrent simply don't hold ground.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:44 am

Think I'm with Truss on this.

People intent on carrying out murder or suicide will find means to obtain firearms illegally, or else find some other way of committing them. Far as I'm concerned if someone wants to commit suicide thats their own business. If they don't shoot themselves, they can hang themselves, OD on pills, jump in front of a train or whatever.

Allowing people to legally own and carry guns at least gives them the ability to defend themselves, or deter would-be attackers.

Banning guns / making ownership illegal just ensures that criminals will be the only ones to have them.
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Post by rick_dagless on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:52 am

The only criminals who would have them would be the organised crime lot, not some smack head off on a days mugging so the argument does not hold.

The only reason to keep the second amendment is because the problem has spiralled that far out of control that it would be almost impossible to rescind.


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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:52 am

Hero wrote:And?
Firearm homicides and suicides have both dramatically fallen in Australia per 100,000 since new gun laws were introduced due to Port Arthur.

But as well as total population, how many major cities does Australia have compared to the US?

Large population centres are more likely to be crime hotspots.
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Post by Hero on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 11:53 am

dyrewolfe wrote:Think I'm with Truss on this.

People intent on carrying out murder or suicide will find means to obtain firearms illegally, or else find some other way of committing them. Far as I'm concerned if someone wants to commit suicide thats their own business. If they don't shoot themselves, they can hang themselves, OD on pills, jump in front of a train or whatever.

Allowing people to legally own and carry guns at least gives them the ability to defend themselves, or deter would-be attackers.

Banning guns / making ownership illegal just ensures that criminals will be the only ones to have them.

Did you not read the stats I posted in regards to levels of homicide in the UK/Australia compared to the US?
Or the number of mass shootings that occur in the States?
How do you propose deterring a lone shooter from attacking a school with an assault rifle (readily available in the States)? Let teachers have guns? Appoint security guards on minimum wages to patrol schools? Oh what happens then when a depressed teacher or the security guard gets fed up of the daily smarky comments for the kids...

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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:00 pm

rick_dagless wrote:The only criminals who would have them would be the organised crime lot, not some smack head off on a days mugging so the argument does not hold.

The only reason to keep the second amendment is because the problem has spiralled that far out of control that it would be almost impossible to rescind.


And where do you suppose said smackheads (and any other criminals, for that matter) would obtain their weapons?

If you move in criminal circles, organised gangs are likely to be your first port of call for weapons.


The overall stats may or may not support firearm ownership, but there are undoubtedly many individual cases where someone having a gun on their person, or even just in their home, will have saved them from being burgled, murdered etc.

I think as long as there are robust background checks in place and they can only be bought at licenced premises, people should have the choice to own firearms.

I think I would also include written and practical tests (similar to driving tests) where you have to demonstrate a minimum knowledge of safe practice and ability to use the weapon. Maybe get re-tested every 5 years or so...
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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:28 pm

The problem is that the US is going in the other direction dyre. I believe they are currently rescinding laws that mean that people with mental health problems can't buy guns.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:53 pm

Been a robust debate so far......Interesting reading through.....

Here is a little flavor of where the US is at with guns......

Granted I read more into polling than others.....

CNN/ORC poll..

Do you favor stricter gun laws ???? Yes 46%........No 52%

Yes (The breakdown)
-----

Men 42%
Women 49%

White 41%
Non Whites 55%.......

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:56 pm

Does that show an increasing trend with past polls?

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Post by superflyweight on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:01 pm

Three simple questions.  

Per capita is the rate of gun deaths higher in the US or in the UK?

Is the difference significant?

Which of those countries has tight gun controls?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:15 pm

1. It's not always fair to compare Countries with different population dynamics..

2. I'm not making the case for a gun culture...Simply pointing out evidence shows more guns are better if you have one.

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Post by Hero on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:27 pm

How easy would it be in a country with strict gun controls such as Australia for someone wishing to commit a mass shooting with an automatic weapon to acquire the gun compared to the US?


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Post by rick_dagless on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:30 pm

dyre wrote:And where do you suppose said smackheads (and any other criminals, for that matter) would obtain their weapons?

They wouldn't, no organised crime gang is going to give a smackhead a weapon, as it will come back and bite them on the arris, and smackheads can not afford to pay them, as they have spent all their money on smack.

Also, smackheads do not move in criminal circles, then run in samackhead circles, and the 2 do not hang about together...

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:33 pm

Yup. Organised crime can only succeed if they stay under the radar. Giving guns to lunatics or drug addicts is a one way trip to destruction

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 3:09 pm

Why are so many Americans in denial over their gun laws, it is indefensible for a country of their size to seemingly condone gun crime which their lax laws do. Then again all they care about is making money.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 4:06 pm

No one is condoning gun crime....

Plain silly...

Fact is the horse has bolted........The OP suggests in a gun culture more guns are safer than less..

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Post by Scottrf on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 4:08 pm

Yep, guns are well known to stop bullets.

Getting shot at? Get out your gun and nobody will die!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 4:10 pm

Scottrf wrote:Yep, guns are well known to stop bullets.

Getting shot at? Get out your gun and nobody will die!

Read the OP... thumbsup

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Post by Hero on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 4:14 pm

Truss I agree with you there to some degree, in a culture in which guns are so prevalent then to remove them will prove nigh impossible.
What I would say though is the level of guns that are available, is it really needed to sell assault rifles etc, whenever has an assault rifle etc been needed for protection? Walmart have finally stopped selling the high end guns but the fact that until recently you could buy this level of gun in a supermarket is a worry for a nation.

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Post by superflyweight on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 4:16 pm

Why not provide suits of armour to all citizens and have a free for all?

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Post by Scottrf on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 4:16 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Yep, guns are well known to stop bullets.

Getting shot at? Get out your gun and nobody will die!

Read the OP... thumbsup
Yeah it's nonsense. These studies have proven bias as studied before.

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6936&context=jclc

Summed up https://www.armedwithreason.com/debunking-the-defensive-gun-use-myth/

A gun fires a bullet upon the pull of a trigger. Not very useful for defense.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 4:29 pm

Scottrf wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Yep, guns are well known to stop bullets.

Getting shot at? Get out your gun and nobody will die!

Read the OP... thumbsup
Yeah it's nonsense. These studies have proven bias as studied before.

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6936&context=jclc

Summed up https://www.armedwithreason.com/debunking-the-defensive-gun-use-myth/

A gun fires a bullet upon the pull of a trigger. Not very useful for defense.

A Democrat isn't going to commission a report on a subject unless he thinks it is going to be...

Neutral or Favorable....

Talking of the "Prevention" of crime here....

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Post by Guest on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 8:38 pm

The idea that providing more citizens with more guns is going to actually reduce gun crime, is laughable.

It is out of control, but adding more guns is only pouring more fuel on the fire.

The US gun culture is an environment that terrorists will thrive in, should it ever come to that. The 2nd Amendment is outdated. It would never have been included in today's world, and now it is a rod for their own back.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 8:56 pm

Who is talking about providing more guns to citizens ??..calm down.

Stating the fact that statistics show more guns tend to mean less crime...

Worth thinking about when discussing gun control.

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Post by Guest on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:01 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Who is talking about providing more guns to citizens ??..calm down.

Stating the fact that statistics show more guns tend to mean less crime...

Worth thinking about when discussing gun control.

That's exactly what is happening. The US population is growing, so demand will increase.

I couldn't care less about the stats. The only stats that should be heeded are the ones showing gun deaths.

Common sense informs you that adding more guns will lead to more gun crime.

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