New Rules

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New Rules

Post by McLaren on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:31 pm

Full story on the proposed changes to the rules.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/39120332


The summary of the proposed changes which will be subject to a period of consultation are;

Remove any penalty for accidentally moving your ball.

Relax the protocols for taking free or penalty drops, with the ball dropped from only an inch above the ground, rather than shoulder height.

Use fixed distances (20 or 80 inches) rather than club lengths to measure areas where a ball should be dropped.

Reduce the time allowed to search for a lost ball from five to three minutes.

Allow putting on the green with the flagstick left in the hole.

Allow players to repair spike marks and animal damage on greens.

Automatically allow the use of distance measuring devices.

Ban caddies from lining up players as they prepare to hit.

Recommend no player takes more than 40 seconds to hit a shot.

Encourage players in strokeplay to implement "ready golf" rather than waiting until it is their turn to hit.

Empower committees to set a maximum score for a hole (such as double par or triple bogey) to allow a player to pick up and move to the next hole.


The claim is that the rules are to be simplified but it looks as if the main aim is to improve the pace of play.

What are your thoughts on the proposals above?

What else would you like to see changed in the rules of golf?
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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:41 pm

Seem sensible enough to me Mac, I don't think I'd disagree with any of those.

I'd like to see them to try and encourage people to walk a bit quicker, be ready to play, no practice swings, placing their bags in sensible places and keeping an effing eye on their ball too.

To me, those are the real causes of slow play.

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Re: New Rules

Post by McLaren on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:52 pm

What do you mean be placing bags in sensible places?

Have you had many instances where a shot has hit a bag or something?
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Re: New Rules

Post by beninho on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 12:59 pm

Players should play quicker, it should just be a fundamental part of the game, I can understand it when professionals play for their livelihoods, but in recreational play, it should just be the norm.

The ready golf thing, should be implemented anyway at all levels.

Why do you have to take the flag out when you putt anyway?

Surely repairing spike mikes on the green will slow it down as players will take an age investigating the green for something they can pat down!

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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:01 pm

McLaren wrote:What do you mean be placing bags in sensible places?

Have you had many instances where a shot has hit a bag or something?

Mac, I'm talking about people approaching the green and leaving their bag in a place which means they have to traipse all the way back over the green to retrieve it. Put the bag on the tee side part of the green whilst others are repairing pitchmarks or lining up.

You really can't think laterally can you Mac?

I'll also add people spending ages looking for tees. It's just a bloody tee.


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Re: New Rules

Post by McLaren on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:02 pm

How will a rule about "ready golf" work? There really needs to be a clear way of judging whether there has been a breach and whether a penalty should be applied.

We can't have players with stopwatches out timing the gap between shots so what would be a good way of determining if the player was ready or not?

In the above list it does say "encourage" players to use ready golf but a penalty is the only way to actually get people doing it. Isn't it?
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Re: New Rules

Post by McLaren on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:03 pm

Super

I was taking the mick. Rolling Eyes

I know what you meant, it is just one of those ridiculous old wife's tales that do the rounds in golf.
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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:05 pm

McLaren wrote:How will a rule about "ready golf" work?  There really needs to be a clear way of judging whether there has been a breach and whether a penalty should be applied.

We can't have players with stopwatches out timing the gap between shots so what would be a good way of determining if the player was ready or not?

In the above list it does say "encourage" players to use ready golf but a penalty is the only way to actually get people doing it. Isn't it?

Ready golf doesn't have a penalty Mac. You just look and play.

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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:07 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

I was taking the mick. Rolling Eyes

 I know what you meant, it is just one of those ridiculous old wife's tales that do the rounds in golf.  

It's not an old wives tale at all. I know you play at a bum course and at times when others don't usually play but if you play at a proper members club where it's crammed, it can get annoying when some oaf constantly has to go back to fetch their bag whilst the others are half way to the tee.

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Re: New Rules

Post by McLaren on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:26 pm

As for no penalty for ready gold I am referring to the idea in the initial outline that ready golf will be encouraged. If the encouragement doesn't impact your score, why would anyone follow it?

I get that it will probably just be something given more importance in junior set ups or we will see more posters around the club, but come on, who will bother listening to that?
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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:33 pm

Why would anyone follow it? Because it's in the interest of pace of the game to play ready golf.
The reason people don't use it now generally, especially in competition is because there is a "rule" whether enforced or not that you play in turn in regards to your proximity to the pin. (If you play out of turn in matchplay, your opponent can make you play again)

For instance, my regular group all play ready golf in bounce games, but we feel under pressure to play in turn (generally) in medal play because of "tradition", "etiquette" or whatever (unless we are all drawn together)

You must have been on a tee and  about to play out of turn and then heard someone say "actually it's still my honour"

If a rule is invoked in which it does not matter if it is "your turn" or "your honour" and others are not "ready" to play, then why would you not play if you are ready?

Have you never looked over to your playing partner before to check if they are ready to play?

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Re: New Rules

Post by raycastleunited on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:57 pm

super_realist wrote:
I'll also add people spending ages looking for tees. It's just a bloody tee.

Is this a Scottish thing? Don't think I've ever seen someone spend more than 5 or 6 seconds looking for a tee.

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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 1:59 pm

Ray, seems to be people who buy those fancy plastic crown tees that come in a pack of three (the ones with a transparent body with a white crown on it). No idea why they don't just use wooden tees, they cost about £10 for 1000.

Even 5 seconds is too long, if it's not there the moment you look down, just walk on.

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Re: New Rules

Post by puligny on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 2:41 pm

I gather there is something about no penalty for hitting your own bag/caddy etc or being hit by your own ball if it pings back from face of a bunker etc?

On the ready golf penalty - it could introduce a new dynamic if they are serious about only having 40 secs to hit your shot. In theory pressure could be loaded on to slow player by playing partner getting theirs out of the way quickly?

The changes overall seem pretty anodyne to me. Can't argue against them, but not really excited by them. There's nothing about landing in fairway divots which seems one of the most unfair rules, and I agree most seem to be about speed of play. Tell people to get on with it, and penalise them if they don't!

And, seriously chaps, don't give me this "it's only a tee" nonsense! I've never bought a tee, but i don't lose them without a search! Close to a panic attack just thinking about it!

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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 2:50 pm

I think that rule is still in place Puligny. I think it's 2 shots if you hit yourself or your bag (no penalty for hitting another bag though as I understand)

I would definitely change the fairway divot rule. Once played in an Open and was in three divots on the first 3 holes.

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Re: New Rules

Post by puligny on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 3:13 pm

Super - I think they changed it to 1 shot penalty a few years ago, and are now consulting on removing the penalty altogether - for hitting yourself/equipment/caddy etc.

Still reeling from your comments about tees!

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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 3:25 pm

A penalty for taking sand on your backswing on bunkers is another stupid rule.

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Re: New Rules

Post by Davie on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 4:15 pm

The only ones I have reservations about are the one about taking free or penalty drop from an inch instead of shoulder height (why?) - and the last one about picking up after triple bogey (or whatever) - this can and SHOULD already be done in Stableford, and can be done in a medal (once, twice?) while still making your card valid for h.c purposes

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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 4:22 pm

What could work is if you take over a prescribed time to play your round, i.e. 4 hours, then you get penalty shots or DQ'd.

Perhaps a strong move, but if people were going to get penalised for slow play in general rather than being timed on each individual shot that would certainly work.
All clubs I know of are computerised these days.

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Re: New Rules

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 5:17 pm

McLaren wrote:
Remove any penalty for accidentally moving your ball.

Relax the protocols for taking free or penalty drops, with the ball dropped from only an inch above the ground, rather than shoulder height.

Use fixed distances (20 or 80 inches) rather than club lengths to measure areas where a ball should be dropped.

Reduce the time allowed to search for a lost ball from five to three minutes.


Allow putting on the green with the flagstick left in the hole.

Allow players to repair spike marks and animal damage on greens.

Automatically allow the use of distance measuring devices.

Ban caddies from lining up players as they prepare to hit.

Recommend no player takes more than 40 seconds to hit a shot.

Encourage players in strokeplay to implement "ready golf" rather than waiting until it is their turn to hit.

Empower committees to set a maximum score for a hole (such as double par or triple bogey) to allow a player to pick up and move to the next hole.



Hmm. Some of it seems OK, but i'm not carrying a tape measure around with me and they can sod off re. the 3 mins search. Not sure I like the last point either, although that looks like it would be local jurisdiction.
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Re: New Rules

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 5:19 pm

super_realist wrote:A penalty for taking sand on your backswing on bunkers is another stupid rule.
No, it's not. It stops cheats getting away with making it easier.
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Re: New Rules

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 5:21 pm

The 1" penalty drop is a non-starter as well. How many will accidentally place it in a nice lie, instead of drop it? I'm not sure I deserve to be able to place drop the ball when it's a penalty...
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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 5:22 pm

It hardly makes it easier if your club brushes the sand.

Brushing a few grains of sand from your club on the backswing doesn't tell you anything really. You can get a lot more of an idea what the sand is like by moving your feet.

I say grounding your club prior to the shot might help, but simply brushing a few grains on the takeaway tells you nothing you can't already know with your feet.

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Re: New Rules

Post by McLaren on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 5:58 pm

Navy

Why are you so against the 3 min search? I have long thought that errant shots into the thick stuff are a major cause of slow play.

A mandatory provisional when a ball is clearly in the deep stuff would also help. And drop the saying it is a provisional bull shite as well.

I would hope rules like those above would drive a change in course maintenance as players become increasingly sick of loosing balls. Only so many times you are forced to move on from a lost ball before the members start calling for some of the gunge to get removed.
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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 6:03 pm

For once Mac, we might agree.
Much of the problem I see with lost balls is from complete hackers who haven't watched where the ball has gone in the first place and they end up looking 100yards further than they've hit it in their lives, yet those back on the tee can see.

A 3 minute window might ensure they watch their ball a bit more carefully.

How about an extra penalty (i.e making it 4 off the tee instead of 3) if you have to go back to the tee. Taking a provisional if there is any doubt is the only sensible way.

Spot on about the provisional, only time you should have to declare anything is if you are abandoning the first ball.

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Re: New Rules

Post by McLaren on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 6:17 pm

Super

Actually I think an extra penalty stroke if you have to go back to the tee would be a good way to get people automatically reaching for the provisional after a poor shot.

If I ran a club I would actually be tempted to say you cannot look for a ball in thick rough unless you were playing a comp. I know this sounds harsh but I get sick of standing waiting on tee's while some hackers is plodding about in the long grass probably not within 100 yards of where the ball landed.
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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 6:19 pm

The worst thing Mac is when people go back to the tee in a bounce game.

I also got stuck behind a group last week, one of which took 3 (three) practice swings at each shot, and all of them insisted on putting out every time. It was only the bloody Jubilee too, not like it was TOC and they're getting their money's worth.

I think stopping people from looking in the rough is a bit harsh, but a two minute search policy might be a better idea for non comp golf.

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Re: New Rules

Post by McLaren on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 6:40 pm

Super

Ok, maybe we could let those with cat 1 handicaps look for balls but the rest just have to pull another ball out the bag if in the long stuff. Yahoo
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Re: New Rules

Post by puligny on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 7:58 pm

Mac - you were doing so well and now you've gone and blown it!
Overall for a major review of rules in a sport where a lot of press is generated by 'crazy rules' it's all a bit pedestrian.

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Re: New Rules

Post by Davie on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 8:15 pm

McLaren wrote:And drop the saying it is a provisional bull Poopie as well.

I don't understand this

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Re: New Rules

Post by McLaren on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 8:30 pm

Puligny, tongue in cheek. Don't worry.


Davie,

You are meant to actually say the words "this is a provisional, ball type xxx" before hitting a provisional.
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Re: New Rules

Post by Davie on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:14 pm

Yes I know that - I still don't get your point. How else are you (or your playing partners) to know which is the ball in play should the first ball be found?

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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Wed 01 Mar 2017, 9:21 pm

Davie wrote:Yes I know that - I still don't get your point. How else are you (or your playing partners) to know which is the ball in play should the first ball be found?

When was the last time you played with someone who played a second ball and declared the first one lost without even looking for it?

When you play a provisional, it's pretty much inferred that it's because you don't know whether you will find the first or not.

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Re: New Rules

Post by robopz on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 1:15 am

Love the overall tenor of the rules suggestions. I could nit-pic a few things here and there, but I see nothing so wrong I have any "serious" misgivings...

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Re: New Rules

Post by GPB on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 3:30 am

McLaren wrote:  I have long thought that errant shots into the thick stuff are a major cause of slow play.

IMO, its the thick stuff is the cause of the slow play, not the errant shots. If the golf course can't be bothered to mow grass to a proper height (2" or less), then the "thick stuff" should have a red line drawn around it. If you find, great, play it. If you don't find it, then take your penalty drop from point of entry and play on. No need for a provisional.

When my course decided to go "Lean and Mean" and grow the rough to 3 and 4 inches, The rough added 30-45 minutes to the round of golf. I complained and complained, and got flippant responses like "hit it in the fairway". I told them I don't play in vacuum. There are other members on the course.




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Re: New Rules

Post by GPB on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 3:33 am

If you think golfers are going to cheat the new rules, I suspect those same golfers are cheating the current rules.

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Re: New Rules

Post by Davie on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 5:40 am

super_realist wrote:
When was the last time you played with someone who played a second ball and declared the first one lost without even looking for it?


Last week

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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 8:02 am

The point is, it's probably 10x rarer than people playing a provisional. Why not make it declaring the first ball lost is the only time you have to declare anything. Otherwise, presume it's a provisional. Doesn't save any time of course, but stops a rules jobsworth saying "You didn't declare that a provisional"

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Re: New Rules

Post by McLaren on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 8:40 am

GPB

Hopefully as I said above the 3 min rule will encourage a change of philosophy on course maintenance, with the emphasis being on actually finding balls more easily.
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Re: New Rules

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 8:45 am

super_realist wrote:It hardly makes it easier if your club brushes the sand.

Brushing  a few grains of sand from your club on the backswing doesn't tell you anything really. You can get a lot more of an idea what the sand is like by moving your feet.

I say grounding your club prior to the shot might help, but simply brushing a few grains on the takeaway tells you nothing you can't already know with your feet.
Isn't it obvious? A few grains makes no difference, but if it's not penalised and I have a lump etc behind my ball, I simply flatten that, or even better make a depression behind the ball, in my backswing. Where do you draw the line and how do you police it? Easier to ban any contact except in the downswing.
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Re: New Rules

Post by super_realist on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 8:53 am

I disagree. You can hardly be so deft on your backswing to flatten and improve your lie.

Bunker shots are hard enough without being so harsh on moving a few grains of sand.

Deliberately moving the sand I'd agree with, a few grains on the take away I really don't see the problem, and I don't call someone out on it if I see it.

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Re: New Rules

Post by McLaren on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 9:42 am

Navy

If I tried to manipulate my takeaway such that I improved my lie I would just hit the ball into the face or worse.
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Re: New Rules

Post by puligny on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 9:52 am

GPB - good point re keeping the grass mown. The good Doctor reckoned golfers should never be overly delayed hunting for golf balls - takes all the fun out of the game!

Spike marks - apparently was tried as a trial on Euro tour some time ago. Abandoned as it slowed play while players tapped their way from ball to hole before playing! Of course when it comes to timing players, that doesn't start until they've had time to remove loose impediments, fix pitch marks and now tap down spike marks! Maybe easier to get them to take their shoes off before accessing the green!

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Re: New Rules

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:15 am

McLaren wrote:Navy

Why are you so against the 3 min search?  I have long thought that errant shots into the thick stuff are a major cause of slow play.

A mandatory provisional when a ball is clearly in the deep stuff would also help.  And drop the saying it is a provisional bull Poopie as well.

I would hope rules like those above would drive a change in course maintenance as players become increasingly sick of loosing balls.  Only so many times you are forced to move on from a lost ball before the members start calling for some of the gunge to get removed.
5 minutes isn't long as it stands Mac. What's to stop someone who's looking for a ball from calling the group behind through? My crowd and I always do that.
As to stating provisional or not, I think that needs to stay. As another player in a group where someone is hitting another ball, I want to know what that ball is. Sorry, but I don't trust people.
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Re: New Rules

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:15 am

McLaren wrote:Super

Actually I think an extra penalty stroke if you have to go back to the tee would be a good way to get people automatically reaching for the provisional after a poor shot.  

If I ran a club I would actually be tempted to say you cannot look for a ball in thick rough unless you were playing a comp.  I know this sounds harsh but I get sick of standing waiting on tee's while some hackers is plodding about in the long grass probably not within 100 yards of where the ball landed.
As a member of that club, I'd be telling you to sod off.
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Re: New Rules

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:18 am

GPB wrote:
McLaren wrote:  I have long thought that errant shots into the thick stuff are a major cause of slow play.

IMO, its the thick stuff is the cause of the slow play, not the errant shots.  If the golf course can't be bothered to mow grass to a proper height (2" or less), then the "thick stuff" should have a red line drawn around it.  If you find, great, play it.  If you don't find it, then take your penalty drop from point of entry and play on.  No need for a provisional.

When my course decided to go "Lean and Mean" and grow the rough to 3 and 4 inches, The rough added 30-45 minutes to the round of golf.  I complained and complained, and got flippant responses like "hit it in the fairway".  I told them I don't play in vacuum.  There are other members on the course.
Thick rough might be one (minor IMO) contributing factor, but it's part of golf. Don't hit the f-ing thing there. Who decides point of entry? I don't trust people. Easiest way to police is to hit a provisional.
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Re: New Rules

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:21 am

McLaren wrote:GPB

Hopefully as I said above the 3 min rule will encourage a change of philosophy on course maintenance, with the emphasis being on actually finding balls more easily.
But it won't. Certainly not in general.

Out of interest, what sort of terrain would you advocate replacing the heavy cabbage?
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Re: New Rules

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:23 am

super_realist wrote:I disagree. You can hardly be so deft on your backswing to flatten and improve your lie.

Bunker shots are hard enough without being so harsh on moving a few grains of sand.

Deliberately moving the sand I'd agree with, a few grains on the take away I really don't see the problem, and I don't call someone out on it if I see it.
Watch me - it's easy. I'm not really talking about improving the lie directly under the ball, more if there's any crap behind it that would affect contact.
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Re: New Rules

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:24 am

McLaren wrote:Navy

If I tried to manipulate my takeaway such that I improved my lie I would just hit the ball into the face or worse.
Really? I took you for more skilled than that Cool .
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Re: New Rules

Post by Roller_Coaster on Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:37 am

I don't like the "drop" from an inch idea, might as well just place as that's what I can see a load of people doing anyway.

Pretty ambivalent (English experts, can one be pretty ambivalent?) about the rest although I think the spike mark thing might be counter-productive to pace of play as people tap anything and everything down.



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Re: New Rules

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