6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

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6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 9 Mar - 16:01

First topic message reminder :

     
ENGLAND v SCOTLAND
Saturday 10th March
16:00 GMT
Twickenham Stadium

Live on ITV, RTE, FR2, DMAX

Referee - Matthieu Raynal
AR1 - Romain Poite
AR2 - Marius Mitrea
TMO - Ben Skeen

A. Head to Head

134 Played 134
74 Won 42
18 Drawn 18
42 Lost 74
1,562 Points 1,141

B. Recent Form

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

C. Teams


ENGLAND


Starting XV:

15. Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 58 caps), 14. Jack Nowell  (Exeter Chiefs, 21 caps), 13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 31 caps), 12. Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 50 caps), 11. Elliot Daly (Wasps, 11 caps), 10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 33 caps), 9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 68 caps), 1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 49 caps), 2. Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 82 caps), 3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 72 caps), 4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 40 caps) , 5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 56 caps), 6. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 10 caps), 7. James Haskell (Wasps, 73 caps) , 8. Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 6 caps).

Finishers

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 15 caps), 17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 40 caps), 18. Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 6 caps), 19. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 48 caps), 20. Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens 32 caps), 21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 69 caps), 22. Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 6 caps), 23. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 24 caps).

SCOTLAND


Starting XV

15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps; 16 tries, 3 pens, 89 points
14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps; 15 tries, 75 points
13. Huw Jones (Stormers) – 6 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
12. Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps; 6 tries, 30 points
11. Tim Visser (Harlequins) – 29 caps; 12 tries, 60 points
10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 5 cons, 8 pens, 44 points
9. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps

1. Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) – 22 caps
2. Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 23 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 7 caps
4. Richie Gray (Toulouse) – 63 caps; 3 tries, 15 points
5. Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 31 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
6. John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 58 caps; 4 tries, 20 points
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 8 caps; 1 try, 5 points
8. Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 25 caps

Substitutes:
16. Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 105 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
17. Allan Dell (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
18. Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
19. Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 27 caps; 1 try, 5 points
20. Cornell Du Preez (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
21. Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 4 tries, 3 pens, 29 points
22. Duncan Weir (Edinburgh Rugby) – 25 caps; 2 tries, 7 cons, 10 pens, 1 drop, 57 points
23. Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps; 6 tries, 30 points

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by nathan on Sun 12 Mar - 20:51

Gooseberry wrote:" Mike Brown must do better with the ball"

Vs Scotland...104m ran ( more than all the Scotland outside backs and centers combined)
Vs Italy ...110m twice as much as any other England player managed
Vs France ...104m just short of twice the next England player ( also most defenders beaten)
Vs Wales...52m , 4th best figure in the game joint top in defenders beaten. The one game you can genuinely make a bad case that he didn't do much attack wise.
Sure it doesn't tell everything by any means but he hasn't been seeing that much more of the ball than other England outside backs.
And he's passed the ball more times in one match than Nowell has in the entire competition.  

Leads England in defenders beaten ( although yes I would caveat that against him having had more opportunities by being on the pitch continuoulsy)

Sure we don't know how much Watson might do from the same position but some of the accusations levelled against him simply arent true.

That he's not getting replaced ( is finished off the correct term now?) Kinda suggests that Jones is more than happy with his contribution despite having a glut of flashy young wings who could turn into full backs.


He's a full back that runs the ball back and doesn't pass - of course he's going to have great stats on the meters front. Would be interesting to see the stats for how many defenders he's beaten though. he used to always beat the first one.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by bsando on Sun 12 Mar - 20:53

Congrats England fans! That was a thrashing

Regardless of injuries and the yellow card, the thing that set the tone of the game for me was the ease at which England scored their first try. Set piece move that worked well. Too damn well! The moment I saw that the try had come from splitting Dunbar and Jones I knew Eddie Jones had done some clever analysis and spotted the weakness there. In some of Scotland's previous matches it was obvious that Jones was getting a little caught out in defence at times and I believe 3 or 4 try's of England's came from similar set piece moves. Combined with excellent boot of Farrell, aggressiveness at the breakdown and good slowing of Scotland's minimal ball it was game over by half time.

I would say Scotland failed to respond when they needed to and England did what they had prepped for and it worked well.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by Poorfour on Sun 12 Mar - 21:18

I checked on Saturday. Brown is usually making a conscious decision to take the ball into contact - he looked for support and whether they had space on several occasions, then chose to take the contact himself. He also laid the ball back cleanly on most of those occasions.

If Eddie wasn't happy with that, he'd have tried someone else there by now, at least as a sub. I am increasingly sure that it's a deliberate tactic relying on Brown being able to get the ball back better than his peers.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by EST on Sun 12 Mar - 21:51

I have experienced some dark days supporting Scotland, but rarely have I been as dissapointed as I was on Saturday.

Just about everything that could have gone wrong, went wrong..and badly so.  Instead of dissecting the many failures, I think the game can be summed up by Watson's try.  In the lead up, you can see Russell racing out of the line, dying to put a big hit on Ford.  According to Laidlaw at halftime, in Scotland's defensive system, the 10 should be targeted by the tailgunner at the lineout - instead Russell totally ignores the system in place and leaves Jones and Dunbar completely isolated.  That was the game in a microcosm,  if you go through the replays, there are countless examples of people going of script. Stupidity and naivety under pressure, a phrase which sums up the whole match for me.

I hope this serves as a strong reminder to the likes of Russell that they are far from the finished article, we have talent but we also have a long way to go.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by Gooseberry on Sun 12 Mar - 22:03

nathan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:" Mike Brown must do better with the ball"

Vs Scotland...104m ran ( more than all the Scotland outside backs and centers combined)
Vs Italy ...110m twice as much as any other England player managed
Vs France ...104m just short of twice the next England player ( also most defenders beaten)
Vs Wales...52m , 4th best figure in the game joint top in defenders beaten. The one game you can genuinely make a bad case that he didn't do much attack wise.
Sure it doesn't tell everything by any means but he hasn't been seeing that much more of the ball than other England outside backs.
And he's passed the ball more times in one match than Nowell has in the entire competition.  

Leads England in defenders beaten ( although yes I would caveat that against him having had more opportunities by being on the pitch continuoulsy)

Sure we don't know how much Watson might do from the same position but some of the accusations levelled against him simply arent true.

That he's not getting replaced ( is finished off the correct term now?) Kinda suggests that Jones is more than happy with his contribution despite having a glut of flashy young wings who could turn into full backs.


He's a full back that runs the ball back and doesn't pass - of course he's going to have great stats on the meters front. Would be interesting to see the stats for how many defenders he's beaten though. he used to always beat the first one.


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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by robbo277 on Sun 12 Mar - 22:08

Poorfoor

It might be that Brown looks for support but doesn't back his ability to make the pass and then takes it in. He's not a natural passer.

I think his security under the high ball and his leadership in that backs division has been very useful in the entirety of Jones' reign, but when we want to take our attacking name to the next level, it is Brown we should look to replace.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by lostinwales on Sun 12 Mar - 22:15

With Brown it does feel he's making a judgement that the guy outside isn't going to get any further and then he prefers to take contact and recycle himself rather than put that on the outside man.

I think from our perspective we see some chances go begging because we can see more than he can, but often, to be honest, he's probably right

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by cascough on Mon 13 Mar - 8:39

kingelderfield wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:That's a knock on at the base.

Has Brown passed the ball in this game?

Serious question.

Just watched the game back and I countered 2 passes (there was also a very poor offload where the ball trickled across the floor) from Brown, neither when in any real attacking position. This was across approximately a dozen or more clear possessions - he just does not either consider creating space or an offload, let a lone a strait forward pass.

Put it like this, and I appreciate he will very rarely be in this position, but consider Joseph's pass at pace, sympathetically given to Watson for the try. The question is this, so ask yourself honestly, would Brown have passed to Watson or would he have held onto possession?

The evidence is that he would hold on and the points would go begging.

Defensively he can be and often is excellent, but going forward we will need more in attack, much more.

When do you think he should have passed?

I've watched the game back and I counted one instance where he possibly could have moved the ball on quickly and set his winger away. Beyond that the defense were numbered up and space was low. In those situations what would you have him do? If he passes he might set his winger up for a pasting. If the winger tries to go outside in the plays I saw then the most likely outcome would have been a turnover as he's bundled into touch. Or the winger might come back inside and set up a ruck. But then Brown is excellent in contact and will likely make more ground and present that ball better than his winger.

Let's not get too carried away. Whether you like him or not, Brown is part of what is a very efficient backline and is clearly held in high regard by Jones. I personally think Brown gives England something that no other fullback in the tournament does. If you kick to Englands fullback, the most common outcome is that he has made enough ground and stayed on his feet long enough to get good support. The ball is then clean and you are right back on the defensive.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by cascough on Mon 13 Mar - 8:42

Poorfour wrote:I checked on Saturday. Brown is usually making a conscious decision to take the ball into contact - he looked for support and whether they had space on several occasions, then chose to take the contact himself. He also laid the ball back cleanly on most of those occasions.

If Eddie wasn't happy with that, he'd have tried someone else there by now, at least as a sub. I am increasingly sure that it's a deliberate tactic relying on Brown being able to get the ball back better than his peers.

I agree.

Think back to the Italy game. Farrell finds himself at fullback, he looks under pressure and the best option appears to be to kick. Instead he takes on the defence and gets scragged, we get turned over. Poor decision by Farrell? Or was he just trying to execute on of Englands exit plays (which Brown is immense at).

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by beshocked on Mon 13 Mar - 8:52

You could see Brown's greediness near the 79th minute mark, getting the ball and not passing whilst almost everyone else including forwards looked to pass.

Now perhaps if Brown was beating defenders more often than not it might be fine but too often he's been stopped and made the attack come to a halt.

I just worry this performance will make England go into the Ireland game too confident.

Well done to those who were previously performing poorly, now need to back it up in Ireland.

The likes of Hughes and Hartley had their best games for England this 6 nations but it's about making sure it's not an one off.

I mentioned the backrow size difference before the game and so it proved the power game was well and truly utilised.

Nice variety though.

Only 3 tries from the replacements....

Impressive performance from the whole 23.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 13 Mar - 8:58

beshocked wrote:

Impressive performance from the whole 23.

Meh ..George was pretty quiet Whistle

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by beshocked on Mon 13 Mar - 9:04

Let's be honest it doesn't help when you have to come off temporarily due to a having a bleeding head.

Still kept his 100% lineout record.

I thought England varied the game nicely.

Reliability of the lineout, yes by Hartley too was in stark contrast to Best's shocker.

2nd time Best has had the yips at lineout time - costing Ireland dear again.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 13 Mar - 9:07

I've generally been avoiding the internet/papers/radio...anything that could include any form of coverage of the game, but just wanted to pop into this thread briefly to congratulate the England fans here.

You were different class on Saturday and whilst it's fair to say Scotland had a shocker, that in no small part was down to the English players forcing Scotland into a number of mistakes and poor choices.

I think England had been building up to a performance like that, it's just a shame you had to do it against us!

Anyway, well done folks, thoroughly deserved.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by captain carrantuohil on Mon 13 Mar - 9:12

I'm still a bit too disappointed with Ireland's wasted opportunity on Friday night to collect my thoughts about that game so I hope you'll allow me to attempt to make sense of what I saw at Twickenham instead.

One thing that definitely springs to mind was England's attitude - they played as though they really meant it. Fired up doesn't even begin to cover their approach to the game and the ruthlessness with which they went looking for that final try in injury time, long after the argument had been settled, was particularly interesting to me.

What made the difference? Certainly, the criticism they received for their first-half efforts against Italy would have been one incentive and I suspect that Eddie Jones would have read them the riot act as well. Pride was at stake, points had to be proved, notably by the "rested" Jonathan Joseph", and no doubt, there was a feeling that some jerseys were on the line.

However, it felt as though there was more to it than that. The English were far more abrasive this time. Before the game, Gavin Hastings wondered whether there had been too much chat from some of the Scottish coaching staff and one or two players about what might happen on the pitch. Normally, it's the Engliosh who can be relied on to say something that ignites the fury of the opposition. This time, the players and even eddie Jones barely mentioned the Scots. On the other hand, there was quite a lot of chat from Nathan Hines and Jason O'Halloran, from Stuart Hogg and Tim Visser, ranging from the pressure that England would be under to the suggestion that Scotland "could not be stopped" from achieving their aims.

In retrospect, I think that Gavin was spot on. Basically, a tiger's tail got tweaked and, I think, prompted some of the ruthlessness that followed. You can't expect people to turn up and say that they're going to hope for the best or something equally lacking in confidence. At the same time, I wonder how wise it is to give the opposition any extra motivation; mind games so often have a habit of rebounding on their perpetrators and I hope it's something that Ireland won't bother with before trying to take the English down next Saturday.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by cascough on Mon 13 Mar - 9:18

I thought Scotland were too pumped. A couple of the boys in the anthems looked on edge. It's romantic and lovely to think passion wins games but it's a professional arena that is about executing time and time again under pressure.

Brown picked a man up (risky given the well publicised directives) and then drove right through the tackle (brainless given the well publicised directives). He also reacted with indignation when the ref explained he had to go. Not indicative of someone who was thinking clearly.

Cool heads needed, instead we got hot heads who before they knew it were stood around 20-0 down.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by beshocked on Mon 13 Mar - 9:24

Thank you EWT Spoons. Nice of you to be so gracious.

I can understand how frustating it must be to see your team run into trouble from the 1st minute onwards.

England were ruthless from the 1st to 80 minutes plus.

As silly as it is, you should see it as a compliment that England came out of the blocks against you. England obviously prepared well.


Of course the injury count was high for Scotland but England are one of the most physical sides in the competition. I don't think it's a coincidence that Scotland's injury woes have mostly been vs England and France.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 13 Mar - 9:29

My thoughts on this:

- England were excellent, and we were not going to win this contest if England played as well as that.
- Specifically the England backline fired for probably the first time in the tournament, and some of the running lines were top drawer.
- Joseph is the best 13 in the NH and should be odds on favourite to start there for the Lions.
- Scotland were, as noted by Cascough above, too pumped at the outset. Brown's tackle was a red card every day of the week and twice on Sundays, and he should have been sent off.
- Our defence was a mess, and we clearly hadn't studied England attacking game closely enough. We also didn't adapt, which made it too easy for England to pour through our midfield at will.
- We showed good pluck to score those three tries, particularly the bold call to go for the corner ahead of Reid's score. There is belief in this Scotland side, and plenty to hold onto.
- Huw Jones is a player, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that his opposite number was the MOTM and our midfield defence was porous.
- Stuart Hogg is incredibly important to us.
- The lightweight nature of our back row showed up here. When England were on the front foot we has precious little artillery to slow them down. Ryan Wilson has had a fine 6 Nations, but there was a men and boys feel to this showdown between the packs at times. We needed a Jason White in there.
- We will come back from this and learn from it.
- Well played England.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by George Carlin on Mon 13 Mar - 9:34

funnyExiledScot wrote:My thoughts on this:

- England were excellent, and we were not going to win this contest if England played as well as that.
- Specifically the England backline fired for probably the first time in the tournament, and some of the running lines were top drawer.
- Joseph is the best 13 in the NH and should be odds on favourite to start there for the Lions.
- Scotland were, as noted by Cascough above, too pumped at the outset. Brown's tackle was a red card every day of the week and twice on Sundays, and he should have been sent off.
- Our defence was a mess, and we clearly hadn't studied England attacking game closely enough. We also didn't adapt, which made it too easy for England to pour through our midfield at will.
- We showed good pluck to score those three tries, particularly the bold call to go for the corner ahead of Reid's score. There is belief in this Scotland side, and plenty to hold onto.
- Huw Jones is a player, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that his opposite number was the MOTM and our midfield defence was porous.
- Stuart Hogg is incredibly important to us.
- The lightweight nature of our back row showed up here. When England were on the front foot we has precious little artillery to slow them down. Ryan Wilson has had a fine 6 Nations, but there was a men and boys feel to this showdown between the packs at times. We needed a Jason White in there.
- We will come back from this and learn from it.
- Well played England.
       
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by beshocked on Mon 13 Mar - 9:38

FES the England backline fired because the platform they had was very good.

In contrast Russell had very little to work with and it got worse when Hogg went off.

I think Scotland really need to find a powerful ball carrier at 8. I think every pack needs one IMO.

As you say - your backrow was lightweight, something I mentioned in the build up.



Tactically England did what I said they should do too - keep the ball out and away from the Scottish back three. Visser was invisible for most of the game because of that.

B.Youngs box kicking was good and allowed England to clear their lines easily. His performance wasn't hugely glitzy but more composed than some games.


Scotland must find a way to counter the power of the likes of France and England if you are to progress.


Last edited by beshocked on Mon 13 Mar - 9:39; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by gcBlues on Mon 13 Mar - 9:39

I thought the guy carrying out Head injury assessments was gonna get the man of the match award at some point. I can't remember a game where that many players from the same team had to have one.

After so much promise and 2 good wins, Scotland stayed true to their roots and took their biennial prison shaming at twickers.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 13 Mar - 9:41

funnyExiledScot wrote:
- Our defence was a mess, and we clearly hadn't studied England attacking game closely enough. We also didn't adapt, which made it too easy for England to pour through our midfield at will.
- We showed good pluck to score those three tries, particularly the bold call to go for the corner ahead of Reid's score. There is belief in this Scotland side, and plenty to hold onto.

To be fair on Scotlands defense theres no question the early card and injuries played a part in all that, and it still took England to execute for the planned moves to come off. And lets face it scotland didnt pick their backs for their defensive abilities.

As for the tries its an oddity of the bonus point system that you could take a real pastying and still walk away with one. Scotland were pretty close to doing this.
It also serves as a reminder that no matter how dominant England are in games they still tend to ship tries. Maybe some of that is not shutting up shop and trying to close out games as they woudl have done wen two scores up in the past. The new tackle directives and encouragement for ball in play has improved try scoring across the board as well. But I still feel its a thing that England havent stopped a side scoring a try for over a year now (and that was Italy). Cant be bothered to fact check but its going to be pre world cup since they shut out one of the top 10.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by IanBru on Mon 13 Mar - 9:43

Hey guys, like EWT I've been avoiding any real coverage - it hurts a bit too much right now. If there's one thing that being a Scotland supporter gives you, it's the ability to cope with the occasional poor performance. I'll apologise in advance if this post lacks any real structure!

Firstly, it's really important to congratulate England and all the English supporters on here - you're a good bunch of guys and I'm happy for you that all of England's promise came together into a single full-80 performance. I'd rather it had been against Wales... but you can't have everything! I was in the O2 hospitality area before the match with Jim, Hagia Sophia and a whole load of England supporters and had a fantastic time. If the match was terrible for us, it only means that the highlight of my weekend was meeting some awesome people.

Sophia and I spent another five hours after the match trying to get back to my folks in Guildford. All southbound trains were stopped at Wimbledon because someone jumped on the tracks and was killed. I can't help thinking that some people really do have troubles, and I shouldn't let myself be too down about a stupid bloody game.

From a Scotland perspective, I think the required emotion right now is honesty. They need to ask themselves some serious questions: Do they believe that their system, and the ethos of the squad, are accurately reflected in that result? Are they capable of playing well and better than that? Saturday aside, do they believe they are on the right track? Are they capable of turning the pain of that result into a win against Italy?

For what it's worth, I do think Scotland were too emotionally pumped for the match - Brown is usually a pretty clinical, cool customer, and I think he lost his head. He gave a very moving and honest interview about his previous struggles with depression (I'd highly recommend people watch it) and I hope his team mates put an arm around him.

What annoys me more than anything was that Scotland really are much better than that result suggests - this isn't baseless assertion, we've all seen it. While England were very very good, they only had to expose errors and weaknesses which already existed in Scotland's defensive system, and which didn't suddenly appear on Saturday. Although the players (in my opinion) should keep faith in the system, they also have to be honest about where it's falling short.

One small bright side - that's the most tries we've scored against England at Twickenham in 12 years, and we're only one try short of our total from last year, with a game against Italy still to play.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 13 Mar - 9:43

funnyExiledScot wrote:My thoughts on this:

- England were excellent, and we were not going to win this contest if England played as well as that.
- Specifically the England backline fired for probably the first time in the tournament, and some of the running lines were top drawer.
- Joseph is the best 13 in the NH and should be odds on favourite to start there for the Lions.
- Scotland were, as noted by Cascough above, too pumped at the outset. Brown's tackle was a red card every day of the week and twice on Sundays, and he should have been sent off.
- Our defence was a mess, and we clearly hadn't studied England attacking game closely enough. We also didn't adapt, which made it too easy for England to pour through our midfield at will.
- We showed good pluck to score those three tries, particularly the bold call to go for the corner ahead of Reid's score. There is belief in this Scotland side, and plenty to hold onto.
- Huw Jones is a player, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that his opposite number was the MOTM and our midfield defence was porous.
- Stuart Hogg is incredibly important to us.
- The lightweight nature of our back row showed up here. When England were on the front foot we has precious little artillery to slow them down. Ryan Wilson has had a fine 6 Nations, but there was a men and boys feel to this showdown between the packs at times. We needed a Jason White in there.
- We will come back from this and learn from it.
- Well played England.

Yeah I can't disagree with this. I've been full of pride the way Vern Cotter has got this young side playing. Saturday was a reality check and although we had a lot of injuries leading into the match and during the match itself England would have still given us a walloping.

Its just such a shame they had to click whilst playing us. Sad
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by beshocked on Mon 13 Mar - 9:57

Would be nice to keep a clean sheet but generally if you look to score tries you become more susceptible to conceding yourself.

It was similar in the England -France bonanza in 2015.

England need to not get ahead of ourselves. Great win but need to keep looking to improve.

Nice to see Farrell put his shocker vs Italy behind him and his foot didn't seem to worry him his goal kicking.

Goal kicking wise Farrell was excellent.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by IanBru on Mon 13 Mar - 10:01

funnyExiledScot wrote:My thoughts on this:
- Scotland were, as noted by Cascough above, too pumped at the outset. Brown's tackle was a red card every day of the week and twice on Sundays, and he should have been sent off.
In a strange way, I disagree and yet I agree.

Obviously Daly's upper back hit the pitch first, so it wasn't a red card. However, Brown did more than enough for Daly's head to hit first, and it was only the luck of the speed of collision, Daly's weight and centre of gravity, and Brown's level of grip on Daly's legs that combined to cause the less serious outcome; none of these were in Brown's control, while his lifting and tilting definitely was.

In the sense that the outcome could have been so much worse, I think the tip tackle laws are wrong - we should look at the act rather than the outcome and be more willing to penalise play which is obviously reckless.

So it wasn't a red card, but it definitely should have been.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by Scottrf on Mon 13 Mar - 10:14

Fair play to the Scottish supporters - class shown thumbsup

Good progress by the team and despite this result a very positive 6 Nations I feel. Lets hope Cotters replacement continues the progress.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 13 Mar - 10:20

When you compare it to the tackle that got May a yellow it's a bit laughable whether your punishing on the act, the intent or the outcome.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by beshocked on Mon 13 Mar - 10:23

I think it should have been a red card but it rattled Scotland anyway.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 13 Mar - 11:36

http://www.606v2.com/t65340-6n-2017-scotland-vs-italy-murrayfield-edinburgh-the-backlash

I have set up a thread for us hurting Scottish fans to go away and sulk in, thanks for the banter guys. Best of luck in Dublin thumbsup

P.S. Tonk them for us so we don't look so bad
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 13 Mar - 11:39

IanBru wrote:Hey guys, like EWT I've been avoiding any real coverage - it hurts a bit too much right now. If there's one thing that being a Scotland supporter gives you, it's the ability to cope with the occasional poor performance. I'll apologise in advance if this post lacks any real structure!

Firstly, it's really important to congratulate England and all the English supporters on here - you're a good bunch of guys and I'm happy for you that all of England's promise came together into a single full-80 performance. I'd rather it had been against Wales... but you can't have everything! I was in the O2 hospitality area before the match with Jim, Hagia Sophia and a whole load of England supporters and had a fantastic time. If the match was terrible for us, it only means that the highlight of my weekend was meeting some awesome people.

Sophia and I spent another five hours after the match trying to get back to my folks in Guildford. All southbound trains were stopped at Wimbledon because someone jumped on the tracks and was killed. I can't help thinking that some people really do have troubles, and I shouldn't let myself be too down about a stupid bloody game.

From a Scotland perspective, I think the required emotion right now is honesty. They need to ask themselves some serious questions: Do they believe that their system, and the ethos of the squad, are accurately reflected in that result? Are they capable of playing well and better than that? Saturday aside, do they believe they are on the right track? Are they capable of turning the pain of that result into a win against Italy?

For what it's worth, I do think Scotland were too emotionally pumped for the match - Brown is usually a pretty clinical, cool customer, and I think he lost his head. He gave a very moving and honest interview about his previous struggles with depression (I'd highly recommend people watch it) and I hope his team mates put an arm around him.

What annoys me more than anything was that Scotland really are much better than that result suggests - this isn't baseless assertion, we've all seen it. While England were very very good, they only had to expose errors and weaknesses which already existed in Scotland's defensive system, and which didn't suddenly appear on Saturday. Although the players (in my opinion) should keep faith in the system, they also have to be honest about where it's falling short.

One small bright side - that's the most tries we've scored against England at Twickenham in 12 years, and we're only one try short of our total from last year, with a game against Italy still to play.

Excellent post - fully agree clap

We left on 75 minutes and headed straight away from Twickenham - it really was a soul destroying experience and we just wanted to get to our local Putney boozer and have a good mope. In a way it was a shame to not experience the full day at Twickenham but that is maybe for the next time - when we'll DEFINITELY beat them finally! king

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by dummy_half on Mon 13 Mar - 12:33

funnyExiledScot wrote:My thoughts on this:

- England were excellent, and we were not going to win this contest if England played as well as that.
- Specifically the England backline fired for probably the first time in the tournament, and some of the running lines were top drawer.
- Joseph is the best 13 in the NH and should be odds on favourite to start there for the Lions.
- Scotland were, as noted by Cascough above, too pumped at the outset. Brown's tackle was a red card every day of the week and twice on Sundays, and he should have been sent off.
- Our defence was a mess, and we clearly hadn't studied England attacking game closely enough. We also didn't adapt, which made it too easy for England to pour through our midfield at will.
- We showed good pluck to score those three tries, particularly the bold call to go for the corner ahead of Reid's score. There is belief in this Scotland side, and plenty to hold onto.
- Huw Jones is a player, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that his opposite number was the MOTM and our midfield defence was porous.
- Stuart Hogg is incredibly important to us.
- The lightweight nature of our back row showed up here. When England were on the front foot we has precious little artillery to slow them down. Ryan Wilson has had a fine 6 Nations, but there was a men and boys feel to this showdown between the packs at times. We needed a Jason White in there.
- We will come back from this and learn from it.
- Well played England.

From an England perspective, I can agree with a fair amount of this. Is it odd though that as an England fan, I thought Fraser Brown's yellow was the right call, while many Scots seem to think he was lucky it wasn't red?

I think the Scottish defence being a mess came from England changing their attacking plan on first phase - mostly up to now they have utilised Hughes or Haskell coming straight in the 12 channel, so trying to punch a hole in the area covered by the 7-10-12 defenders. Looking at JJs first two tries, the first comes with Hughes just suggesting making that run, holding the inside cover and giving him half a step on Dunbar's outside shoulder, and the second with Hughes making a committed dummy run a bit wider and making Dunbar (who came up too quickly) commit to him, leaving a dog leg between himself and Jones that JJ was able to cut back through. While you could perhaps have done more to adapt, the key was the speed England got the ball out to the wider channels, meaning the Scottish back row wasn't able to provide the inside-out cover.

Elsewhere, the key was that England won the battle in contact, and the extra yard or two the ball carriers made allowed for quick ball and a disorganised defensive line. Agree that there are times you need a Jason White type of player who will simply stop an opposing ball carrier in their tracks.

It was interesting how often England kicked for touch, especially Youngs - obviously they respected the counter attacking threat of the Scottish back 3, but also the ability we (Itoje n particular) have to challenge for and win opposing ball.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by George Carlin on Mon 13 Mar - 12:44

Dummy - I didn't watch the game (and thank god for that) but apparently we had Fun Sized Duncan Weir at full back and teeny tiny Ali Price (scrum half) on the wing. Who wouldn't kick to them all day long?

God bless Tim Visser for getting stuck in.
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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by jimbopip on Mon 13 Mar - 13:03

George Carlin wrote:Dummy - I didn't watch the game (and thank god for that) but apparently we had Fun Sized Duncan Weir at full back and teeny tiny Ali Price (scrum half) on the wing. Who wouldn't kick to them all day long?

God bless Tim Visser for getting stuck in.

GC, I have just tried to watch the game, house to myself, lasted until 3minutes 45 seconds and felt physically ill.
Bru was spot on with what he said earlier; the England crowd in the stadium, here and in the Blue Tent were all good company. One highlight for me was Vernon Kay after the match thanking the Scots fans for going back to the Blue thingy, "It can't be easy for you to come in here and listen to us celebrating. Fair play to you, I respect that. Barman, give everyone who's Scottish a drink on me." That helped, a little.
Secondly, they had done their homework and out-thought us. We didn't adapt quickly enough. For that alone we deserved to lose and they deserved to win.
Finally, we need to thump Italy in the same way England thumped us. No excuses.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by cascough on Mon 13 Mar - 13:39

I have a question for Scotland Fans.

When Hogg went down, you brought on a scrum half and put him on the wing, moving your winger to fullback. At that point you had 3 players out of position including a very specialised and inexperienced player (Price).

I assumed that either

A)Weir would come on and slot in at 10 and send Russell to Fullback. My thinking being that the game called for a more pragmatic approach anyway as Scotland were at risk of being blown away. I don't know if FR has played full back before but there are a lot of transferable skills between the two and Russell seems to have attributes that would be useful in that position. The other bonus would be that it kept your wingers as wingers, which can be pretty crucial in defence.

or B)Weir would come on and go straight to Full back. His kicking from hand would be useful at that back and even if he was at FB he could still step in at first receiver if needed and utilise his kicking game.

Can any Scotland fans shed any light as to what the thinking was by bringing on another SH and shunting everyone round?

Edit - I may have got mixed up a bit, I forgot Bennett was on for a time too, and ultimately it all went tits up when Seymour went off as well, but I'm just trying to understand what the plan with Price was.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 13 Mar - 13:46

Yeah Price only went onto the wing when Bennett also went off injured - think it is fair to say you wouldn't normally plan for your reserve outside back going off injured just minutes after Hogg went off injured (plus Seymour went off too).

We really were in a right mess so I don't think any positional shuffling would have made a difference.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by cascough on Mon 13 Mar - 13:49

RDW_Scotland wrote:Yeah Price only went onto the wing when Bennett also went off injured - think it is fair to say you wouldn't normally plan for your reserve outside back going off injured just minutes after Hogg went off injured (plus Seymour went off too).

We really were in a right mess so I don't think any positional shuffling would have made a difference.

You wouldn't plan for that, but he still had the option of bringing on Weir over Pyrgos. Bringing on a Scrum half didn't make a great deal of sense to me and I still don't get it. That would seem like the last option to me.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by BigGee on Mon 13 Mar - 13:52

I would think as well that at that point in the match, any remote chance of us getting back into the game would have involved Finn Russell coming onto his game and creating something special. That would not have happened with Duncy at FH.

I suppose the logic of putting Price on the wing is that he is very nippy, much more so than Pyrgos, which may have been the other option. He did give away some height advantage though!

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 13 Mar - 13:55

cascough wrote:I have a question for Scotland Fans.

When Hogg went down, you brought on a scrum half and put him on the wing, moving your winger to fullback. At that point you had 3 players out of position including a very specialised and inexperienced player (Price).

I assumed that either

A)Weir would come on and slot in at 10 and send Russell to Fullback. My thinking being that the game called for a more pragmatic approach anyway as Scotland were at risk of being blown away. I don't know if FR has played full back before but there are a lot of transferable skills between the two and Russell seems to have attributes that would be useful in that position. The other bonus would be that it kept your wingers as wingers, which can be pretty crucial in defence.

or B)Weir would come on and go straight to Full back. His kicking from hand would be useful at that back and even if he was at FB he could still step in at first receiver if needed and utilise his kicking game.

Can any Scotland fans shed any light as to what the thinking was by bringing on another SH and shunting everyone round?

Edit - I may have got mixed up a bit, I forgot Bennett was on for a time too, and ultimately it all went tits up when Seymour went off as well, but I'm just trying to understand what the plan with Price was.

The problem is that Weir is rubbish, and if you put him at 15 even Mike Brown would beat him for pace....

To be fair most teams would struggle if you take out two outside backs. You either are lucky enough to have a 10 who can cover other positions or you are not. In truth Duncan Weir can barely cover 10.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by dummy_half on Mon 13 Mar - 14:02

cas

As RDW points out, Bennett initially came on for Hogg and managed to crock himself in about 2 minutes (suspect ankle ligaments as he tried to sidestep). I wonder if the thinking was that Hogg would come back after his HIA (he seemed OK as he jogged off, but he had taken a smack from Itoje in a tackle that rode up to head high from his chest / shoulder), and that there would be less disruption from temporarily shuffling Price to the wing (he's quick enough) and Seymour to full back (a position he is experienced in). Of course, with Hogg not coming back and Seymour also getting a knock, things got worse.

Having said that, I don't think Scotland's problems were principally from these personnel issues (even allowing for Duncan Weir being the worst international rugby player since Phil Godman), as it was the carving of holes in the defence in midfield and closer to the ruck that was the big issue.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 13 Mar - 14:18

Just for a bit of light relief, Guscott has drooled over Jonny on the Beeb this morning:

What can you say about Jonny Wilkinson? He would deliver just exactly what his coach wanted from him. He understood England's gameplan inside out and executed everything it in his methodical and clever way.

Defensively he set new standards for the position with shuddering hits and, crucially in that World Cup final, he was a penalty-kicking genius.

heart

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by Poorfour on Mon 13 Mar - 14:43

cascough wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Yeah Price only went onto the wing when Bennett also went off injured - think it is fair to say you wouldn't normally plan for your reserve outside back going off injured just minutes after Hogg went off injured (plus Seymour went off too).

We really were in a right mess so I don't think any positional shuffling would have made a difference.

You wouldn't plan for that, but he still had the option of bringing on Weir over Pyrgos. Bringing on a Scrum half didn't make a great deal of sense to me and I still don't get it. That would seem like the last option to me.

There's reasonable history for trying scrum halves on the wing in desperation. It's how Shane Williams and I think Austin Healey got their breaks, and even Danny Care has played there IIRC. It's possible that Price actually has some age grade time at wing - a lot of players who've grown up through academies have played multiple positions growing up and are used to slotting in elsewhere. For instance, Joe Marchant is mostly 13 but I believe has played across the backline in his time.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by miaow on Mon 13 Mar - 17:01

I think the position of the wing has changed a lot in the last decade though. It's gone from being the fastest, often nippiest player in the team, to effectively another full back, typically as tall as a back rower, and the best fielder of high balls in the team. Not every winger matches up to this as yet, of course, and blistering pace can account for some deficiencies in some areas, but there's only one way wing play is going, and it's becoming more and more specialist.

Added to that, everything in Rugby has also become a lot more 'systematic', i.e. every play or scenario, there will be a demand for each player in their specific position. For a scrum half to leap into an already difficult scenario in a Test match, you're on a hiding to nothing.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by lostinwales on Mon 13 Mar - 17:24

Young's (Ben) first cap was as a replacement on the wing. Austin Healy certainly played at scrum half/fly half/ wing and full back, and possibly at center. For all the annoying little git thing he was very talented.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 13 Mar - 17:27

lostinwales wrote:Young's (Ben) first cap was as a replacement on the wing. Austin Healy certainly played at scrum half/fly half/ wing and full back, and possibly at center. For all the annoying little git thing he was very talented.

That he was. Healy was one of the most versatile players I can remember, able to play 9, 10 and wing at international level. He was an ideal bench option during the Woodward era.

I don't think Ben Youngs was ever a winger. Surely it was an injury replacement that ended in him covering wing.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by Poorfour on Mon 13 Mar - 18:06

funnyExiledScot wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Young's (Ben) first cap was as a replacement on the wing. Austin Healy certainly played at scrum half/fly half/ wing and full back, and possibly at center. For all the annoying little git thing he was very talented.

That he was. Healy was one of the most versatile players I can remember, able to play 9, 10 and wing at international level. He was an ideal bench option during the Woodward era.

Yeah, but Catt played every position from 10 to 15 - and at 12, 13 and 15 over his RWC finals - and was much less annoying with it.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by funnyExiledScot on Tue 14 Mar - 14:41

Poorfour wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Young's (Ben) first cap was as a replacement on the wing. Austin Healy certainly played at scrum half/fly half/ wing and full back, and possibly at center. For all the annoying little git thing he was very talented.

That he was. Healy was one of the most versatile players I can remember, able to play 9, 10 and wing at international level. He was an ideal bench option during the Woodward era.

Yeah, but Catt played every position from 10 to 15 - and at 12, 13 and 15 over his RWC finals - and was much less annoying with it.

This is true, certainly the bit about Catt being less annoying, however Catt was clearly at his best in the centre (were it not for Will Greenwood, Catt would have had a bunch more caps at 12). The less we talk about his one on one tackling at 15 the better......

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 14 Mar - 15:08

Poorfour wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
lostinwales wrote:Young's (Ben) first cap was as a replacement on the wing. Austin Healy certainly played at scrum half/fly half/ wing and full back, and possibly at center. For all the annoying little git thing he was very talented.

That he was. Healy was one of the most versatile players I can remember, able to play 9, 10 and wing at international level. He was an ideal bench option during the Woodward era.

Yeah, but Catt played every position from 10 to 15 - and at 12, 13 and 15 over his RWC finals - and was much less annoying with it.

Maybe personality wise but he was so disaster prone it was a lot more annoyting watching him as a fan. He made Finn Russell look like a sensible deicsion maker and defensive rock.


Pretty sure Wilko ended up on the wing in a six nations game against Wales (2008?) May have been the one where James Hook became a big deal ( for a few weeks anyway)

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by robbo277 on Tue 14 Mar - 15:13

England had it in the first game of the 2008 Six Nations. Ben Kay ended up in the back row and Cipriani ended up at 13 (possibly on or near his international debut?) Think this may be the game Gooseberry is talking about above (we crossed posts).

It's easy to say Wales would have won that game anyway (and they probably would have, as they won a Grand Slam that year), but at the time it did feel like we were robbed of a chance of competing, which I think is in some ways worse than just being beaten.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 14 Mar - 15:15

Was that also when Tindall nearly died after taking a deliberate knee to the spleen?

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

Post by robbo277 on Tue 14 Mar - 15:19

Gooseberry wrote:Was that also when Tindall nearly died after taking a deliberate knee to the spleen?

Cipriani came on for Tindall, so probably. The midfield was Wilko, Flood and Cipriani to finish. Don't remember all that much of the actual gameplay though, I was very drunk at uni for that one. Just remember the sinking feeling as the injuries piled up.

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Re: 6N 2017: England vs Scotland (take 2)

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