How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

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How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by DaveM on Sun 12 Mar - 23:04

First topic message reminder :

England next play NZ in the autumn of 2018. We can be confident that they will be ranked 2 and 1 in the world, but England will have home advantage. I expect this will be one of the most hyped games in the history of rugby. But how will England change between now and then? Obviously there will be injuries, loss of form, players coming from nowhere, etc, but here are some things I expect:

- England will get a lot better. We are still a young and inexperienced side, and I would have thought we would naturally get about 20% better over this timescale.
- Elliot Daly will be fullback. Mike Brown has been a great servant but is in decline, and Daly is a wonderful footballer. I think this might be Daly's long-term position for England.
- Jamie George will be hooker, Luke Cowan-Dickie will be the 'finisher' on the bench, and Itoje will be Captain. Hartley has been lucky in terms of not missing internationals, when he eventually does I think the case for change will be clear.
- Underhill will be in the matchday squad, and will quite possibly be the starting 7. England have some fantastic backrows at age-group level, but Underhill will come into contention before them and he may be able to push past Haskell. I think Robshaw will still be the starting 6 at this point.

What does everyone else think?

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by Cyril on Wed 22 Mar - 9:49

miaow wrote:I think Underhill is the obvious one, yes. Looks like a smaller version of Warburton.
They're pretty much identical stats-wise according to the WRU, Ospreys and ESPN figures. Same weight but Waburton is a bit taller.

Underhill will probably put on a bit of muscle as he's only 20.

It'll be interesting to see how he gets on in the Aviva after some rave reviews for Ospreys. He's certainly been on Eddie's radar for a while and will tour to Argentina.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Mar - 18:00

As above miaow Ireland were good but there were too many unforced errors by England which kept them out of the game. Silly knocks ons bad tackles etc.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Wed 22 Mar - 21:59

How will England evolve?

It's really hard to see England ever 'evolving' into anything other than England being England. Playing to their strengths, which we all know what they are. That's it. England will never evolve into a flamboyant side, they will always be a 10 man side with an occasional foray against weaker sides or against sides they have the upper hand. Low risk is the default. Low risk, drab, safe. It's just the way the universe works. Eddie snake oil salesman Jones will not evolve England but he will talk them up to the nth degree. Because that's what Ockers do.
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Mar - 22:04

Poor wum rattue!

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 22 Mar - 22:06

ebop wrote:How will England evolve?

It's really hard to see England ever 'evolving' into anything other than England being England. Playing to their strengths, which we all know what they are. That's it. England will never evolve into a flamboyant side, they will always be a 10 man side with an occasional foray against weaker sides or against sides they have the upper hand. Low risk is the default. Low risk, drab, safe. It's just the way the universe works. Eddie snake oil salesman Jones will not evolve England but he will talk them up to the nth degree. Because that's what Ockers do.

Have you actually payed any attention to England over the last 2 years?

Their strengths are the pacy backs., mobile pack and distributors. Its side playing 10 man rugby that have rattled them and knocked them off their game.
Jones was the one who wanted to bring in boshiung centers but couldnt find them.

As for low risk....its over a year since they didnt concede a try. If they are low risk they arent very good at it.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by robbo277 on Wed 22 Mar - 22:09

king_carlos wrote:It's important to remember just how big the Lions 'squad' is by the time the tour concludes. 5 locks are usually named initially but more than that will end up being involved even just in the pre-tour training camps as cover for guys who are in finals or injured. Then of course there's the battalion that will be called up over the tour as injury cover and replacements.

After that you then have the possibility of key England players who miss out being rested.

If the likes of Lawes, Launchbury, Robshaw, Haskell, Care, Brown, etc are available for the tour then a few off them may still be rested.

If Kruis returns to fitness too late to push for a Lions chance then he might go to Argentina. In fact he'd be a reasonable bet for skipper if that were the case.

For the players who don't go to the Lions:

England play Argentina on 10th and 17th June. The Lions tests are on the 3 Saturdays commencing 24th June. If the injuries start piling up before the first test, would both not rather be training and perhaps playing in an International rugby environment so they could be called in to hit the ground running?

I think telling players to sit this one out who then might miss out on late call-ups to the Lions might be harder than it may first appear.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by Scottrf on Wed 22 Mar - 22:09

Backs scored 9 of 13 tries in 4 games against Australia last year. But yeah we're a forwards dominated 3 point team Rolling Eyes
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Wed 22 Mar - 22:13

Defense won the Australian series. I don't know what you'd describe as what won the recent 6Ns, luck? Wales and France should have won their games if it not for some last minute desperation. Hardly a ringing endorsement for evolution.
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Mar - 22:14

Lol. Poor.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by Scottrf on Wed 22 Mar - 22:15

ebop wrote:Defense won the Australian series. I don't know what you'd describe as what won the recent 6Ns, luck? Wales and France should have won their games if it not for some last minute desperation. Hardly a ringing endorsement for evolution.
Scoring 106 points in 3 games is defence? Did you even watch it?
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Wed 22 Mar - 22:17

7.5/100, stop winding up
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Mar - 22:22

Who is 100? I'm not winding anyone up? I'm just laughing at your really funny joke.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Mar - 22:22

It's like reading Chris Rattue which is where I'm assuming you get your material from? Bit like NZs Stephen jones ain't he.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Wed 22 Mar - 22:24

Scott yes I did watch the series and England's defence was pretty good and Australia were hapless as they're prone to be these days
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by Scottrf on Wed 22 Mar - 22:26

ebop wrote:Scott yes I did watch the series and England's defence was pretty good and Australia were hapless as they're prone to be these days

Well you said we were playing 10 man rugby. I'd ask which 10 because 1 to 10 scored 20 of 106 points...

I think you missed some while you were exercising to All Black youtube clips.
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Wed 22 Mar - 22:29

You're living in the distant past Scott. What about against Ireland, how many points did the backs score in that effort? England have regressed since Australia.
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by Scottrf on Wed 22 Mar - 22:31

ebop wrote:You're living in the distant past Scott. What about against Ireland, how many points did the backs score in that effort?

You said foray against weaker sides so I chose the highest ranked team they have played recently.
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Mar - 22:33

Rattue has a bit more bite to his remarks. Come on ebop up your game.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Wed 22 Mar - 22:34

Yeah but they're not much chop, Ireland are better than Australia and you lost to them.
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Wed 22 Mar - 22:35

7.5/100, you can't help yourself
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Mar - 22:35

Come on throw on that Ireland are the true 2nd best. Population resources of England. If you're going to do it do it right.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by Scottrf on Wed 22 Mar - 22:35

ebop wrote:Yeah but they're not much chop, Ireland are better than Australia and you lost to them.
By 4 points away from home. Closer than the Chicago game. So both 1-1 vs Ireland since Eddie came in.
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 22 Mar - 22:36

Does another thread have to be spoilt ??

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Wed 22 Mar - 22:37

Lol, we beat them in Dublin, away from home
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Wed 22 Mar - 22:42

Ok Geordie

The floor is all yours
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Mar - 22:43

Apparently geordie! Looking forward to seeing Underhill this summer and with Bath. Think I've only seen him 2 or 3 times but didn't really jump out at me. Hope Clifford isn't discarded and doubt he will be but there's wave after wave of quality coming through.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 22 Mar - 22:57

Ive never seen Underhill play 7.5 so have no idea if the hype is warranted or not.

Clifford is a concern. Loads of ability, but I think he needs to sort it out...as Poorfour mentioned above Chisholm is rapidly progressing and is a more physical aggressive style of player.

I think Joel Conlon could make some waves soon aswell. Been playing well for Saracens.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 22 Mar - 22:58

Do you think Genge will start at LH?

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Mar - 23:05

Chisholm looks good. Clifford looked amazing vs Wales then ok not great since. There is a certain amount of pressure with the competition about which is where jones has to pick and then give a few chances and not constantly jump from 1l player to another. Yeah genge looks a serious prospect.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by Scottrf on Wed 22 Mar - 23:07

And if we go Genge-Taylor-Hill for example, we can practice tactics for games where we win no scrums.
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Mar - 23:30

Really? Rate all those as great prospects.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 22 Mar - 23:40

Im still not totally sold on Taylor. But he has a lot of fans.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by miaow on Wed 22 Mar - 23:54

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ive never seen Underhill play 7.5 so have no idea if the hype is warranted or not.

It is. He looks very good.

The obvious danger though is the hype. He's not ready for England. You should look to phase out Haskell for the 2019 RWC, and with that in mind, you should be capping him off the bench in the AIs next season, and maybe some 6Ns games, but I wouldn't start him.

The hype becomes particularly worrying if England go down to a potentially weakened Argentina and play the fast but brutal game they want to play, and Underhill shines as England hammer them. Cue even greater hype before he's even played a club game in England. You could be setting him up to be a disappointment in the Premiership.

I say "you", but you know what I mean. The media, expectation etc. He looks a real prospect, but manage him correctly. England don't need to throw youngsters in before they're ready, certainly less so than any other 6Ns bar perhaps France.

Whilst he could step up to Test level and probably do a decent job, I don't think it's the best education. He hasn't played very much professional rugby for the Ospreys, let alone in a week-in-week-out manner of the English Premiserhip.

If he's allowed to develop at his own pace- with one eye set firmly on the Autumn of 2019- you could have a very useful player.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 22 Mar - 23:58

miaow wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Ive never seen Underhill play 7.5 so have no idea if the hype is warranted or not.

It is. He looks very good.

The obvious danger though is the hype. He's not ready for England. You should look to phase out Haskell for the 2019 RWC, and with that in mind, you should be capping him off the bench in the AIs next season, and maybe some 6Ns games, but I wouldn't start him.

The hype becomes particularly worrying if England go down to a potentially weakened Argentina and play the fast but brutal game they want to play, and Underhill shines as England hammer them. Cue even greater hype before he's even played a club game in England. You could be setting him up to be a disappointment in the Premiership.

I say "you", but you know what I mean. The media, expectation etc. He looks a real prospect, but manage him correctly. England don't need to throw youngsters in before they're ready, certainly less so than any other 6Ns bar perhaps France.

Whilst he could step up to Test level and probably do a decent job, I don't think it's the best education. He hasn't played very much professional rugby for the Ospreys, let alone in a week-in-week-out manner of the English Premiserhip.

If he's allowed to develop at his own pace- with one eye set firmly on the Autumn of 2019- you could have a very useful player.

Hows Morgan getting on these day.

Theres no evidence that Jones is looking to rush him. A few of the internerds have been pushing at ways to get him into the 6 nations squad etc but realisticaly the summer tour is the time to bring him ininto the squad, and possibly for the Fiji AI. Wheter he plays at all or starts may depend a bit on who else tours, Lions call ups etc.

I do agreee that the bandwagon hype is a bit OTT

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by Scottrf on Thu 23 Mar - 0:01

No 7&1/2 wrote:Really? Rate all those as great prospects.
Known as bad scrummagers though?
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Mar - 0:08

I'm not so sure. Genge catches the eye more in the loose but has the power. Taylor and hill for me anyway are good in the scrum. I suppose the thing with all young front rows is they'll have the occasional off day. I was surprised when Sinckler started to be chosen ahead of hill but he does have more experience and looks to have improved under Rowntree.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 23 Mar - 1:16

I think one of Eddies biggest jobs is selecting the right players amongst the host of options that are going to be available to him...and then sticking with those players.

Look at the back row alone...and ill miss many im sure...

Older / Senior / Experienced / 1st team
Haskell
Robshaw
Wood
Hughes
Bill V

The Next batch / Fringe / Possibles
Carl Fearns returning to Prem
Mike Williams
Matt Kvesic - Moving to Exeter
Jack Clifford
Teem Harrison
Dave Ewers
Beaumont
etc
etc

The Kids
Harry Thacker
Mercer
Calum Chick
Evans (Tigers)
Curry x 2 (Sale)
Underhill

The options are huge...and that's just back row!

Picking the ones that will fulfil their potential whilst also improving England and suiting their style is going to be a massive challenge.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by robbo277 on Thu 23 Mar - 2:11

The back row is a key area for England because we need some fresh faces in there, and there are so many much-of-a-muchness options.

Wood and Hughes won't go to New Zealand, so you could go with both of them, but you might be missing a trick in giving someone else good game time.

But then Harrison, Clifford and Beaumont would be quite an inexperienced trio, and if they couldn't provide the backs with a platform then they're not going to get a decent chance to show what they can do.

That's without considering the younger and U20 guys.

One issue that is if Eddie Jones is only going to stick around to 2019, he might not consider this long-term succession planning and happily burn through all our back row options, chucking them in and then discarding them when he needs to.

Talent identification and development is going to be so important over the next 12 months in getting 2 new options in the back row up to speed.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 23 Mar - 2:23

Thats exactly it Robbo,

Wood for me should be slung aside now. He's a good prem level flanker, but doesn't quite have the physicality or running ability to be an attacking back rower (Clifford) or a defensive one (Haskell) nor an alround general (Robshaw) at international level

That spot can be better used giving Clifford or Harrison or another the gametime.

Hughes however (though I hated the idea of him playing for England) has played and as you rightly say wont tour NZ so should be starting 8 in Argentina.

It also depends on what style Eddie wants to play. Continue with the more physical breakdown style or move to a fetcher, or try to encorporate both.

Fearns coming back could be interesting and so could Kvesic going to Exeter.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by robbo277 on Thu 23 Mar - 3:51

I'd raise an eyebrow if either of them went, but for different reasons.

I'm not sure how much Jones would have watched Fearns. Maybe he'll have a quick look until the end of the season, but I wouldn't be surprised if Jones waited until he was playing regularly (and well) in the Premiership.

With Kvesic, I'd say Jones wouldn't be doing his job if he hadn't had a look at him. He was called up to the Saxons last summer, but beyond that he hasn't had much of a sniff. Since then Sam Jones and Mike Williams have both had call-ups (and subsequently suffered with injuries), Wood has come back into the equation and Itoje has been reassigned to the back row. Clifford and Harrison have remained with the squad, so in terms of flankers Kvesic is below at least 8 players.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 23 Mar - 4:07

Kvesic isn't good enough and I doubt Fearns has improved that much whilst playing in France tbh.

I imagine we'll see:

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

With Underhill and Clifford getting game time.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by majesticimperialman on Thu 23 Mar - 6:13

So it looks like England will not play the Abs this year after all.

It seems the Abs will play the barbarians in stead.

Are the Abs running scares of England?

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Thu 23 Mar - 6:34

The ABs were always scheduled to play the baa baas but England kept winning so they fancied themselves a game. Turns out they got a reality check against Ireland and didn't want to pay the ABs for the opportunity to get taught a lesson. Losing two games in a row might do irreparable damage to Eddie's ego. Eddie knows his team isn't there and wants to delay the inevitable meeting so he can continue to pretend his team is a real contender.
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Mar - 6:36

Wow you're sating nz would have dropped the baa baa s in such a big year for them just for money? Shocking from nz.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Thu 23 Mar - 6:38

Where did I say that

You're reading comprehension is 7.5/100
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Thu 23 Mar - 6:41

What is shocking was RFU threatening to veto the ABs v Barbarians game by pulling Twickers off the table

Shocking and rather spiteful

Turns out RFU chickened out after watching their team humbled by Ireland
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Mar - 6:43

Im shocked nz would stoop as low to back out of the game for money. Thank goodness the rfu weren't willing to pay the bunch of money grabbers. Who is 100?

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by ebop on Thu 23 Mar - 6:46

But NZR dismissed RFU for that very reason. The RFU didn't like that and then they threatened to pull twickers off the table. Keep up 7.5. The game was never going to happen. The RFU don't look good in this episode.
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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Mar - 6:50

I'm glad no matter what the rfu weren't willing to pay nz. Can't believe they wanted to drop the baa baas. Bit shocking for NZ to threaten that really I agree with you ebop.

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Re: How will England evolve before they next play New Zealand?

Post by Gwlad on Thu 23 Mar - 6:56

England dont want to play NZ until they have to, they're enjoying being 2nd in the World and won't risk it. Fact is they would like to avoid it until RWC and then sneak under the radar.

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