Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

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Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by englandglory4ever on Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:19 am

First topic message reminder :

Brown's late tackle on Daly was everything that the laws of the Tip Tackle were designed for and supposed to prevent. Here we have a clear late tip tackle that results in a significant head injury. An injury where he was forced to leave the field by the England coaches because they had obviously noticed that Daly was not right despite passing a HIA. So that ref and the TMO clearly believe that a significant head injury is not important when it comes to adjudicating on late tip tackles. Merely did the injured player land on his shoulder, neck or head! If he didn't and broke his neck then a yellow card would suffice. I think these refs need some re education regarding why the tip tackle laws are in place. Indeed, even if Daly was able to continue the ferocity of that late tip tackle would almost warrant a Red Card because of the injury it 'may' have caused. I hope Brown is cited and given an appropriate ban.

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by BigGee on Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:04 am

brennomac wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Brown was lucky to avoid a red too. However I also think Hughes was lucky to avoid a yellow. The ref didn't have a great game to be fair.

Interested to know on what grounds you think Hughes deserved a yellow card?

Clumsy, late challenge that resulted in an injury to a player. Clear it up any?

Clumsy? No
Late? Marginally

It causing an injury is neither here nor there.

Well personally I would have red carded brown and yellow carded Hughes. But that's not why I'm a referee.
I could sort of have lived with that but a red card so early on would have killed the game (little did we know at the time....) It was also a textbook example of the kind of dump tackle that the authorities are getting very heavy on.

The Hughes hit is much more complicated. Had Seymour had the ball in his hands at the time he was hit nobody would have complained. But he didn't, so it was foul play and it did result in his injury. I am sure the rule book says late hit and penalty - I don't know what space there is for a further sanction in the interpretation of the laws when someone does get hurt like that


Jared Payne got a red card after 3 mins after he tackled a Saracens Alex Goode in the air in a Heineken cup game a few years ago, ruined Ulster's chances of winning that game.  But general reaction was that even though it was more clumsy than malicious by Payne, red card from Garces was fair.  It was certainly nothing on the par of Brown's assault on Daly on Saturday - that was a nailed on red card and Raynal  and the TMO bottled the decision pure and simple, doesn't matter if it's after 2 mins or 72 mins.  Assume Brown will be cited and cop a ban

Not on the Ulster thread it wasn't!

Goode was tipped way up in the air and came straight down on his head, the clumsiness or otherwise of it had nothing to do with the red card, it was duty of care, Goode could have been killed!

I don't think the timing in the game should have any bearing on these decisions and I don't think in Brown's case it did. They had a long look at it on replay and made their decision based on where he landed, you could clearly hear that on the mic.

That is, after all, how refs are instructed to deal with these things.

It was a bad tackle, which no-one is in any way condoning and if he cops a ban, so be it. I don't want to see any bad tackles like that in the game, either from my team or the opposition.

The ref though, who probably did not have a great game and missed plenty of other stuff, seemed to follow the current guidelines and in my opinion made the correct call for that one.

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by poissonrouge on Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:42 am

Citing panel upheld yellow as appropriate penalty - so guess the ref didn't leave his red one at home
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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by TJ on Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:03 am

Good - it was absolutely correct in the laws

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:21 pm

Good to see the panel show support for the Official's judgment, and not look to pillorise them,

 Its good for Brown also as we dont want to see players frivolously persecuted.

 I presume Daly is fine, and can get back on the field for the next match.

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:48 pm

The panel should & are independent so it's irrelevant to 'show support for the Officials'.
Coming to the correct decision is what counts & although I at the time felt it was a red. I accept that the correct decision has been made after consideration.

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by lostinwales on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:48 pm

It is probably the right decision, but given how much grief a certain prominent England player got for a butt on his backup you could say Brown got away lightly for breaking Daly's nose with his head ...

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by LondonTiger on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:51 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote: I presume Daly is fine, and can get back on the field for the next match.

Broken nose and currently going through the return to play protocols - so for now best not to make that presumption until after the assessment on Thursday/Friday.

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by LondonTiger on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:52 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:The panel should & are independent so it's irrelevant to 'show support for the Officials'.
Coming to the correct decision is what counts & although I at the time felt it was a red. I accept that the correct decision has been made after consideration.

In terms of how Daly landed yes, but in terms of the way that Brown picked him up and drove him into the ground I would debate it. Obviousley in front of that panel I woudl lose, but on another day and another panel a different decision could easily have been reached.

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by lostinwales on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:54 pm

Actually - could you just imagine the storm of righteous indignation plus calls for hang drawing and quartering as the only appropriate punishment had Hartley carried out the dump tackle on, say, Hogg?

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:55 pm

Yeah. I wouldn't overly have argued for a yellow or red. Right on the border between the 2 for me. Landing is a yellow but he was driven down taking it more to a red. Still a bit of work to do around the laws as ever when you compare the yellow May picked up for the same offence.

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by Gooseberry on Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:11 pm

The Brown tackle was also late and deliberate. The May one was not disimilar to the infamous Ferris incident that the Irish still wang on about.

It does just fit in with the guidance given but shows theres a very fine line on these things and that they cant account for all variables without becoming even more confused than they are already ...or just saying to a ref " use your common sense". It is inconguorus though that a clearly deliberate late hit dump tackle isnt a straight red just because the player managed to keep his head from taking the impact, but still got a solid blow to the face and a damaged shoulder. Its very diffeent to the yellows (and even reds) we see for accidental tips where players have gone in for legal tackles and players own motion to avoid them have taken their legs high.

As it was the yellow at the time potentially had a big impact on the game and set the tone for the drubbing almost as much as red might have done. Im not sure that Brown woudl be first name on the team sheet after such a complete loss of discpline if Scotland have adequate cover so may find himself benches in lieu of a ban anyway. He certainly wont be very popular with his teammates.

There isnt exactly the level of baying for blood there has been in some past examples here. But Brown can count himself lucky that the guidance is as it is and that Daly managed to keep his head up.

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:19 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:The panel should & are independent so it's irrelevant to 'show support for the Officials'.
Coming to the correct decision is what counts & although I at the time felt it was a red. I accept that the correct decision has been made after consideration.

 theres a difference between showing "support for the officials" and showing "support for the officials judgment".

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:40 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:The panel should & are independent so it's irrelevant to 'show support for the Officials'.
Coming to the correct decision is what counts & although I at the time felt it was a red. I accept that the correct decision has been made after consideration.

 theres a difference between showing "support for the officials" and showing "support for the officials judgment".

True but either way it's irrelevant. The importance is coming to the correct decision.

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:08 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:The panel should & are independent so it's irrelevant to 'show support for the Officials'.
Coming to the correct decision is what counts & although I at the time felt it was a red. I accept that the correct decision has been made after consideration.

 theres a difference between showing "support for the officials" and showing "support for the officials judgment".

True but either way it's irrelevant. The importance is coming to the correct decision.

 ... and the correct decision is an outcome of judgment.

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

Post by TJ on Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:53 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:The panel should & are independent so it's irrelevant to 'show support for the Officials'.
Coming to the correct decision is what counts & although I at the time felt it was a red. I accept that the correct decision has been made after consideration.

Nicely said. Its not often folk change their mind and are big enough to say so

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Re: Did the ref leave his RED card at home?

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