6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

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6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 10:16 am

First topic message reminder :


ITALY VS SCOTLAND

Date: Saturday 18th March
Venue: Murrayfield Edinburgh
Kick Off: 12h30
Referee:  Pascal Gauzere (France)
TV Coverage: Live on BBC

Scotland and Italy will get proceedings underway on the final weekend of the 2017 Six Nations Championship when they meet at the BT Murrayfield Stadium in Edinburgh on Saturday 18th March.

Scotland ended a run of nine straight Six Nations defeats when they beat Italy 36-20 in the 2016 Championship.

Scotland and Italy have contested a total of 26 rugby test matches since their first meeting in 1996. Scotland have won 18 of those matches, whilst Italy have won 8 matches.

Teams

Scotland

TBC

Italy

TBC
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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by BigGee on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 1:26 pm

Scottrf wrote:Honestly I don't think Russell has the composure and decision making to go. A talent, but so many mistakes.

Russell would be a bolter and I would take him over Biggar as he offers something different. He also always looks much better behind a good pack (which the Lions are likely to give him).

Against him unfortunately are Ford and Sexton, along with Farrell who will also provide FH cover. Baring injuries to one of them (and Sexton is less than robust) I can't see him going.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by Scottrf on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 1:29 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Honestly I don't think Russell has the composure and decision making to go. A talent, but so many mistakes.

Sounds like Gregor Townsend. It's also worth remembering Russel has only been a pro rugby player for 3 years!
Not writing him off, these comments are with a Lions tour in mind! He can come to Northampton...
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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by David-Douglas on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 1:39 pm

BigGee wrote:Hard to argue with Tom English assessment and the Lions are not going to be overstocked with Scots again. I have found that hard to take on previous tours, but in the face of such a dominant English team just now (unlike when Woodward took all his old and past it mates last time to NZ) it will be much harder to argue against it.

Hoggy will still go and should still start baring injury. One Grey will probably go (at the moment RG is playing better than JG) and maybe one winger. Huw Jones, as RDW said could be the bolter (there is usually one).

We may pick up a few more spots as injury subs bearing in mind that we will be nearby in Oz around the same time. It will be scraps from the table for us though and probably all we deserve.

No one can complain about lots of England players touring, but given that Wales have been the worse performing team in the '4 Nations' I'll not be too happy if there are more Welsh than Scots.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by captain carrantuohil on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:18 pm

Think that Hogg and a fit Seymour are definites. Had thought that Jonny Gray was one as well, but such is England's embarrassment of riches, that they'll provide at least three of the locks on tour, with Itoje, Launchbury and Lawes almost racing certainties. I've said elsewhere that I'm fairly sure that Gatland picks A-W J, which leaves an absolute maximum of one vacancy. For me, the contenders are Gray junior and Kruis and so much will depend on whether the (fresher) players who have played little or no part in the 6N are uppermost in Gatland's mind. If they are, then Nel at loose-head definitely comes into the reckoning for the tour party.

Jones at centre is a decent shout, especially as no centres bar the England pair have established an irrefutable case. Dunbar has clearly played himself out of the side after a nightmare of a game. The same, I fear, may be true of Watson, whom I had previously thought a very good idea at 7. Suspect that Gatland is going to settle for power above all else and the true back-row jackals likely to be selected are Welsh.

As for the Scottish halves, fear that Laidlaw's inactivity is probably going to tell against him. Murray and Webb are a lay-down misere to tour and would guess that one of the two English 9s will join them. Russell? Enormous promise but he's not going on this tour, I wouldn't think. Not to New Zealand, not where experience and a cool head are going to be at a premium. It's not a place where one poor, judgement-free game out of every three is going to go unpunished.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:22 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:Think that Hogg and a fit Seymour are definites. Had thought that Jonny Gray was one as well, but such is England's embarrassment of riches, that they'll provide at least three of the locks on tour, with Itoje, Launchbury and Lawes almost racing certainties. I've said elsewhere that I'm fairly sure that Gatland picks A-W J, which leaves an absolute maximum of one vacancy. For me, the contenders are Gray junior and Kruis and so much will depend on whether the (fresher) players who have played little or no part in the 6N are uppermost in Gatland's mind. If they are, then Nel at loose-head definitely comes into the reckoning for the tour party.

Jones at centre is a decent shout, especially as no centres bar the England pair have established an irrefutable case. Dunbar has clearly played himself out of the side after a nightmare of a game. The same, I fear, may be true of Watson, whom I had previously thought a very good idea at 7. Suspect that Gatland is going to settle for power above all else and the true back-row jackals likely to be selected are Welsh.

As for the Scottish halves, fear that Laidlaw's inactivity is probably going to tell against him. Murray and Webb are a lay-down misere to tour and would guess that one of the two English 9s will join them. Russell? Enormous promise but he's not going on this tour, I wouldn't think. Not to New Zealand, not where experience and a cool head are going to be at a premium. It's not a place where one poor, judgement-free game out of every three is going to go unpunished.

That would be a bold move indeed given that he's a tighthead! Very Happy

I also suspect his season is over - he's had a series of neck injuries this season and picked up another one earlier in the year shortly after his return.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by tigertattie on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:23 pm

Scottrf wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Honestly I don't think Russell has the composure and decision making to go. A talent, but so many mistakes.

Sounds like Gregor Townsend. It's also worth remembering Russel has only been a pro rugby player for 3 years!
Not writing him off, these comments are with a Lions tour in mind! He can come to Northampton...

I agree. Russel doesn't know how to control or dictate a game. He doesn't understand or he is unable to alter his tactics depending on the team he is up against. He just plays flat and high risk all the time. His kicking game is poor and he does silly silly things inside his own 22!

He still has time to learn but there's been no sign of him doing so! I still maintain that he's 4th or 5th choice for standoff for the Lions and folk talking him up need to calm down!
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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:24 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:Think that Hogg and a fit Seymour are definites. Had thought that Jonny Gray was one as well, but such is England's embarrassment of riches, that they'll provide at least three of the locks on tour, with Itoje, Launchbury and Lawes almost racing certainties. I've said elsewhere that I'm fairly sure that Gatland picks A-W J, which leaves an absolute maximum of one vacancy. For me, the contenders are Gray junior and Kruis and so much will depend on whether the (fresher) players who have played little or no part in the 6N are uppermost in Gatland's mind. If they are, then Nel at loose-head definitely comes into the reckoning for the tour party.

Jones at centre is a decent shout, especially as no centres bar the England pair have established an irrefutable case. Dunbar has clearly played himself out of the side after a nightmare of a game. The same, I fear, may be true of Watson, whom I had previously thought a very good idea at 7. Suspect that Gatland is going to settle for power above all else and the true back-row jackals likely to be selected are Welsh.

As for the Scottish halves, fear that Laidlaw's inactivity is probably going to tell against him. Murray and Webb are a lay-down misere to tour and would guess that one of the two English 9s will join them. Russell? Enormous promise but he's not going on this tour, I wouldn't think. Not to New Zealand, not where experience and a cool head are going to be at a premium. It's not a place where one poor, judgement-free game out of every three is going to go unpunished.

I think that's harsh on Dunbar. He had a bad game defensively but if you look at Englands 1st phase tries they scored he had a split second decision to make seen faced with 2 players and 2 dummy runners.

England's pack should take the bulk of the credit. They feigned a maul and they forced the Scottish backrow to overcommit at the line out. Normally our backrow would flood the midfield and limit the options of attack. However they thought a big shove was coming and when they committed to the "maul" the ball was gone, and our backrow were out of the game, then Dunbar was faced with 3 men in his channel and Jones had 2 in his channel.

Dunbar wasnt terrible, it's just England's attack left him with too much to handle.
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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by captain carrantuohil on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:25 pm

Sorry, RDW, as you say. Hadn't realised that his injuries were quite as terminal for his season as that. Oh dear, not what a prop needs and that really is bad luck. My point re. Kruis still stands, though. Had he been fit, would likely have started for England and I suspect that's who Jonny has to beat for a place this year, fitness depending.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:26 pm

I do hope that players haven't been discarded based on one bad game. Ireland and Wales both had bad games against us, and I doubt whether Gatland has ruled out the usual suspects from Wales just because we beat them with something to spare.

I think Jonny Gray and Stuart Hogg have strong cases and, in my view, should tour.

I think that Laidlaw has a shot at 3rd scrum half (I wouldn't pick him) and Seymour has a shot on the wing. Gatland has talked up both Visser and Maitland as well, and we know he's a fan of Maitland (although Maitland didn't have a stellar tour last time). Huw Jones may well have played himself in, and a strong showing against Italy could cement that.

I don't think we'll see anyone outside of that group. I never felt Hamish Watson would make it and still don't. Nel would have had a great shot, but injury has ruled him out. Strauss could have been a contender, but not with his injury situation.

All in all, I don't think this game will have changed the picture by much.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by captain carrantuohil on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:27 pm

It is harsh on Dunbar, radge, whom I rate, but harsh calls are going to be made by the selectors, who are going to have visions of All Blacks asking similar questions of any Lions midfield. It's hard to imagine that they won't have Saturday at top of mind when thinking about Dunbar's candidacy.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:28 pm

Scotland team tweeted some pictures of the training session today - no sign of new faces (Denton, Bradbury etc) but Hogg was involved in what looked like non-contact training.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:31 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:It is harsh on Dunbar, radge, whom I rate, but harsh calls are going to be made by the selectors, who are going to have visions of All Blacks asking similar questions of any Lions midfield. It's hard to imagine that they won't have Saturday at top of mind when thinking about Dunbar's candidacy.

I don't think Dunbar is a lions contender anyway so the point is moot. However he is getting some stick, whereas England aren't getting enough praise for the questions they were asking that Scottish defence which has performed very well this tournament untill Saturday.
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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by BamBam on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:31 pm

I would take Dunbar

Realistically, your centre options look something like

Farrell, Henshaw, Dunbar, Williams at 12
JJ, Jones, JD2 at 13

If Farrell goes as the 3rd 10 it frees up an extra spot for a centre, so could have 5 "proper" centres

Henshaw/JJ are nailed on
JD2 probably is because Gatland

Dunbar is up against Scott Williams at 12 for a place, and I think I'd pick Dunbar. I could also see Daly going as 13/wing/fb cover as the last of the "centres"

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by BigGee on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:34 pm

captain carrantuohil wrote:Sorry, RDW, as you say. Hadn't realised that his injuries were quite as terminal for his season as that. Oh dear, not what a prop needs and that really is bad luck. My point re. Kruis still stands, though. Had he been fit, would likely have started for England and I suspect that's who Jonny has to beat for a place this year, fitness depending.

I think Kruis lack of game time will count against him, it is not as if picking any of the others will seriously weaken the team.

A commentator suggested that the Lions best chance would be to pick the whole of the England team to play the Blacks.

That may well be true but unfortunately it would trash the brand and therefore won't happen. Some of the marginal choices will go to non English players, they have to. None of the Irish locks have really put up their hands, so I expect that it will be Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, AWJ (who may well be the captain) and a Grey (probably Johnny). They are all very good players and none of them will disgrace the jersey.

Still it is a long time till they get on the plane and a lot of rugby to be played. I would also be amazed if one of them does not sustain a tour prohibiting injury prior to then.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by captain carrantuohil on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:39 pm

Bam Bam, I'd be amazed if Farrell isn't inked in for the Test 12 shirt on the tour, whoever is taken at outside half. It may be that on a short tour, the selectors only take two uot and out tens besides, so Sexton and either Ford or Biggar, I imagine. Personally, I thought Dunbar had a very realistic shot as one of the 12s before Saturday, but that game has to hurt him, however well he has played at other times. Think that Henshaw will go, Jones, as I say, is a sporting chance to make it as well, and I wouldn't absolutely discount someone like Te'o making the trip as an impact player for the dirt-trackers. Completely forgot Daly (he edited furiously), whose ability to cover a few positions will also likely get him on the tour as a dirt-tracker specialist at least.


Last edited by captain carrantuohil on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:40 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotland team tweeted some pictures of the training session today - no sign of new faces (Denton, Bradbury etc) but Hogg was involved in what looked like non-contact training.

They were just going through defensive drills....

Too soon?

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:43 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotland team tweeted some pictures of the training session today - no sign of new faces (Denton, Bradbury etc) but Hogg was involved in what looked like non-contact training.

They were just going through defensive drills....

Too soon?

Crying or Very sad

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 2:55 pm

Well according to the stats Dunbar only missed one tackle. He made 10 and missed one, wheras Jones made 8 and missed 1. I suppose JJ ghosting through unopposed doesn't count as a missed tackle.


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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 3:04 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Well according to the stats Dunbar only missed one tackle. He made 10 and missed one, wheras Jones made 8 and missed 1. I suppose JJ ghosting through unopposed doesn't count as a missed tackle.

Exactly. As it happens, I didn't miss any tackles on JJ either....

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by BigGee on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 4:07 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Well according to the stats Dunbar only missed one tackle. He made 10 and missed one, wheras Jones made 8 and missed 1. I suppose JJ ghosting through unopposed doesn't count as a missed tackle.

Exactly. As it happens, I didn't miss any tackles on JJ either....

Dunbar did make a tackle, just on the wrong player!

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by SecretFly on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 4:09 pm

Em........................ request.

Can we swap BACKLASH sides for the weekend?

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by BigGee on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 4:13 pm

The lack of announcements concerning replacements surely must be a positive thing. I would imagine all the walking wounded would have been scanned this morning and have a reasonable idea of prognosis by now.

VC has been very loyal to the squad he originally picked and is probably planning to reward the squad players with caps rather than bringing in new players, I suppose it makes sense in that they will be right up to speed with the plays in any case.

If it is just some of the concussed players to worry about, then that should be doable. Harder to see how he can manage if Russell, Gray and Jones as well as the likelihood of Brown sitting out as well.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 4:57 pm

Tommy Seymour was taking part in training too

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 5:05 pm

SecretFly wrote:Em........................ request.

Can we swap BACKLASH sides for the weekend?

Nope, although it should be noted that we are playing a BACKLASH side as well, although that's more of a permanent state for Italy.....

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by R!skysports on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 5:05 pm

SecretFly wrote:Em........................ request.

Can we swap BACKLASH sides for the weekend?

Can we swap it to

Whiplash


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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by George Carlin on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 6:59 pm

Says a lot about the quality of our posters that this has quietly turned into the most interesting Lions thread on these boards. Let's keep it to ourselves lest the kings of todger comparisons flood this thread with their cheese on toast dripping onto the carpet.

I like Radge's posts a lot and I would really like to believe that Gatland's analysis of the 6N campaigns from each team will be as methodical as that. Unfortunately, as Tom English correctly points out - this often bears second fiddle to particularly emotive images which stick long in the mind and there were plenty of those last weekend. You cannot also shut out the braying of the (mostly pro-English and pro-Welsh) press which will presumably also push the 50:50 calls a particular way.

Realistically I only have hopes for Gray (probably the younger although Gats like Richie enough to take him on the last tour) and Hogg.  

Let's think seriously about the competition:

1. Hamish Watson

Gatland will be desperate to take Warbuton again and might even be able to justify it as despite a long layoff this season and his Cardiff Blues going nowhere, he has improved throughout the championship. He is also more likely to take Tipuric than Watson although both will be jammed into the box marked 'luxury player'. The killers for Watson are that Sean O'Brien plays 7 and will be favoured for his power even through he has been a shadow of himself this tournament and James Haskell with his protein shakes has also made the 7 shirt his own, despite the fact that he possesses nothing like a conventional openside skilset. Too much noise for Watson to go.

2. Alex Dunbar

All been said above. Despite Ireland's problems, Robbie Henshaw is correctly the first choice. Gatland will probably take Farrell as a 12 despite the fact he is not as well rounded as a number of other utility backs. Gats will also cling grimly to Jamie Roberts even through with Henshaw going he is quite literally unneccessary. The other killers are that Ben Teo will be deemed the muscle supersub with Daly the 'footballing' alternative.

3. Tommy Seymour

Really does have a shot if he finishes strongly with Glasgow. The problem is that if Glasgow don't beat Sarries, he probably won't be involved in the end of season playoffs. Strong performances from Maitland and Visser will also cloud his visibility as a top Scottish pick ironically. I said at the beginning of the tournament that he is good enough to start a test on the wing but almost certainly won't and I stand by that. It's a crying shame because his skillset is 5 times more rounded that that of the gangling one trick pony that is Jonny May, yet May is much more likely to go.

4. Jonny Gray

Has the distinction of being one of only 2 Scottish players (Mister AP being the other) where his publicity machine is at least the equivalent of that of his peers. I hate to say this but there are genuine reasons why he will miss out. Joe Launchbury has been one of the stars of this tournament and his numbers are massive. Itoje will wave his magic knob and a test place will magically appear in front of him. Lawes will probably ride the England wave to New Zealand although his club form has been very average indeed. Saint Alun of Wynn Jones will invariably travel as even now I am thinking about how good he was on the last Lions tour. Donnacha Ryan doesn't seem to last more than a half for Ireland these days and his yellow card against Italy will not have gone down well. That said, Devin Toner has got to be in the running and Ian Henderson is still peddling the story that he is a lock who can also play loosie although Lions tours tend to be a time for specialists and not generalists. My gut reaction says that Jonny will make it.

On the others, this tour is one too soon for Huw Jones, Finn Russell and Zander Fagerson. Crying shame for Nel - he would surely have travelled, but won't now.
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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by poissonrouge on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 7:02 pm

Bizarre as it may sound after Saturday's thrashing, depending on if both England and ourselves win at the weekend and by what margin, I believe we can overtake Ireland and go up to fourth in the rankings.
Scotland cannot climb any further than they are. They are over 10 ranking points ahead of Italy so no gain for a win (and 2-3 pt drop for a loss) I have put out all the permutations in the sticky on world rankings, but the only one who can get to 4th other than Ireland is Wales - if Ireland lose and Wales win ( or if Ireland draw and Wales win by >15)
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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by captain carrantuohil on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 7:18 pm

I really hope that you're wrong about May, George. Not a molecule of rugby intelligence within him, a track and field athlete who wouldn't be one of England's four best wings in my view. Seymour has been quietly excellent for a while now. He scores tries, which is not the worst gift for a wing to have, does the defensive stuff well enough and basically has the English and Welsh wings for competition. Ireland's, regrettably, would be struggling to get on the plane on current form if they were taking six wings to New Zealand.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 9:42 pm

George Carlin wrote:Says a lot about the quality of our posters that this has quietly turned into the most interesting Lions thread on these boards. Let's keep it to ourselves lest the kings of todger comparisons flood this thread with their cheese on toast dripping onto the carpet.

I like Radge's posts a lot and I would really like to believe that Gatland's analysis of the 6N campaigns from each team will be as methodical as that. Unfortunately, as Tom English correctly points out - this often bears second fiddle to particularly emotive images which stick long in the mind and there were plenty of those last weekend. You cannot also shut out the braying of the (mostly pro-English and pro-Welsh) press which will presumably also push the 50:50 calls a particular way.

Realistically I only have hopes for Gray (probably the younger although Gats like Richie enough to take him on the last tour) and Hogg.  

Let's think seriously about the competition:

1. Hamish Watson

Gatland will be desperate to take Warbuton again and might even be able to justify it as despite a long layoff this season and his Cardiff Blues going nowhere, he has improved throughout the championship. He is also more likely to take Tipuric than Watson although both will be jammed into the box marked 'luxury player'. The killers for Watson are that Sean O'Brien plays 7 and will be favoured for his power even through he has been a shadow of himself this tournament and James Haskell with his protein shakes has also made the 7 shirt his own, despite the fact that he possesses nothing like a conventional openside skilset. Too much noise for Watson to go.

2. Alex Dunbar

All been said above. Despite Ireland's problems, Robbie Henshaw is correctly the first choice. Gatland will probably take Farrell as a 12 despite the fact he is not as well rounded as a number of other utility backs. Gats will also cling grimly to Jamie Roberts even through with Henshaw going he is quite literally unneccessary. The other killers are that Ben Teo will be deemed the muscle supersub with Daly the 'footballing' alternative.

3. Tommy Seymour

Really does have a shot if he finishes strongly with Glasgow. The problem is that if Glasgow don't beat Sarries, he probably won't be involved in the end of season playoffs. Strong performances from Maitland and Visser will also cloud his visibility as a top Scottish pick ironically. I said at the beginning of the tournament that he is good enough to start a test on the wing but almost certainly won't and I stand by that. It's a crying shame because his skillset is 5 times more rounded that that of the gangling one trick pony that is Jonny May, yet May is much more likely to go.

4. Jonny Gray

Has the distinction of being one of only 2 Scottish players (Mister AP being the other) where his publicity machine is at least the equivalent of that of his peers. I hate to say this but there are genuine reasons why he will miss out. Joe Launchbury has been one of the stars of this tournament and his numbers are massive. Itoje will wave his magic knob and a test place will magically appear in front of him. Lawes will probably ride the England wave to New Zealand although his club form has been very average indeed. Saint Alun of Wynn Jones will invariably travel as even now I am thinking about how good he was on the last Lions tour. Donnacha Ryan doesn't seem to last more than a half for Ireland these days and his yellow card against Italy will not have gone down well. That said, Devin Toner has got to be in the running and Ian Henderson is still peddling the story that he is a lock who can also play loosie although Lions tours tend to be a time for specialists and not generalists. My gut reaction says that Jonny will make it.

On the others, this tour is one too soon for Huw Jones, Finn Russell and Zander Fagerson. Crying shame for Nel - he would surely have travelled, but won't now.

That's not where I saw this thread going bit nevermind!

Just saw the replay of Hogg getting poleaxed by Itoje and Haskell, that was a brutal hit. How have either of them escaped the citing commissioner?
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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 9:55 pm

Because there wasn't much power in the tackle of Itoje which rode up and there's nothing wrong with what Haskell did at all as he basically grabbed Hogg as he fell.

Did hogg go off with concussion in the end? Just wondering why the Scottish medical staff took 10 min to get him tested?

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 11:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because there wasn't much power in the tackle of Itoje which rode up and there's nothing wrong with what Haskell did at all as he basically grabbed Hogg as he fell.

Did hogg go off with concussion in the end? Just wondering why the Scottish medical staff took 10 min to get him tested?

It was the ref that sent him for the HIA, as for the hit its similar to the Barrett, Palling incident a few months back.

The first tackle was round the neck and then Haskell mashed his head with a forearm.
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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by EST on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 8:48 am

George Carlin wrote:Says a lot about the quality of our posters that this has quietly turned into the most interesting Lions thread on these boards. Let's keep it to ourselves lest the kings of todger comparisons flood this thread with their cheese on toast dripping onto the carpet.

I like Radge's posts a lot and I would really like to believe that Gatland's analysis of the 6N campaigns from each team will be as methodical as that. Unfortunately, as Tom English correctly points out - this often bears second fiddle to particularly emotive images which stick long in the mind and there were plenty of those last weekend. You cannot also shut out the braying of the (mostly pro-English and pro-Welsh) press which will presumably also push the 50:50 calls a particular way.

Realistically I only have hopes for Gray (probably the younger although Gats like Richie enough to take him on the last tour) and Hogg.  

Let's think seriously about the competition:

1. Hamish Watson

Gatland will be desperate to take Warbuton again and might even be able to justify it as despite a long layoff this season and his Cardiff Blues going nowhere, he has improved throughout the championship. He is also more likely to take Tipuric than Watson although both will be jammed into the box marked 'luxury player'. The killers for Watson are that Sean O'Brien plays 7 and will be favoured for his power even through he has been a shadow of himself this tournament and James Haskell with his protein shakes has also made the 7 shirt his own, despite the fact that he possesses nothing like a conventional openside skilset. Too much noise for Watson to go.

2. Alex Dunbar

All been said above. Despite Ireland's problems, Robbie Henshaw is correctly the first choice. Gatland will probably take Farrell as a 12 despite the fact he is not as well rounded as a number of other utility backs. Gats will also cling grimly to Jamie Roberts even through with Henshaw going he is quite literally unneccessary. The other killers are that Ben Teo will be deemed the muscle supersub with Daly the 'footballing' alternative.

3. Tommy Seymour

Really does have a shot if he finishes strongly with Glasgow. The problem is that if Glasgow don't beat Sarries, he probably won't be involved in the end of season playoffs. Strong performances from Maitland and Visser will also cloud his visibility as a top Scottish pick ironically. I said at the beginning of the tournament that he is good enough to start a test on the wing but almost certainly won't and I stand by that. It's a crying shame because his skillset is 5 times more rounded that that of the gangling one trick pony that is Jonny May, yet May is much more likely to go.

4. Jonny Gray

Has the distinction of being one of only 2 Scottish players (Mister AP being the other) where his publicity machine is at least the equivalent of that of his peers. I hate to say this but there are genuine reasons why he will miss out. Joe Launchbury has been one of the stars of this tournament and his numbers are massive. Itoje will wave his magic knob and a test place will magically appear in front of him. Lawes will probably ride the England wave to New Zealand although his club form has been very average indeed. Saint Alun of Wynn Jones will invariably travel as even now I am thinking about how good he was on the last Lions tour. Donnacha Ryan doesn't seem to last more than a half for Ireland these days and his yellow card against Italy will not have gone down well. That said, Devin Toner has got to be in the running and Ian Henderson is still peddling the story that he is a lock who can also play loosie although Lions tours tend to be a time for specialists and not generalists. My gut reaction says that Jonny will make it.

On the others, this tour is one too soon for Huw Jones, Finn Russell and Zander Fagerson. Crying shame for Nel - he would surely have travelled, but won't now.

I think this is a very accurate summary, GC. As it currently stands, the best we can hope for is Hogg, J. Gray and Seymour. Even before the mauling at the weekend, we had failed to turn the dial of opinion as far as Gatland was concerned, his comments about needing a big away performance proved that.

Regarding the Italy game, I am looking forward to a big performance from the guys - they owe it to BVC and themselves. Not much news regarding injuries/call-ups, but I expect Matt Scott, Maitland and CDP will be involved in the mix.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by BigGee on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:25 am

Injury news may not be as bad as first feared, the pictures released from the squad training yesterday showed Finn, Richie and Hoggy all taking part.

Hoggy looked the least serious of the HIAs and you would imagine if Hamstrings and Knees were an issue, the other two would not be romping around the training paddock. We also have not called anyone else into the squad, which is a good sign.

There will be a few changes though, surely CDP will start in place of Wilson and it will be good to see what he has to offer from the start in a less pressured game. Maitland likely to slot straight back in for Tommy, which again, should not really weaken us.

On the Lions front, I still think Laidlaw has an outside chance to go if he can get himself fit before the end of the season. He has got a lot of credit in the bank for Scotland both as a player and a captain and has been at the heart of the recent Scotland revival.

Murray and Webb will be the test players baring injury, but Laidlaw would make a great captain of the dirt trackers. as well as being able to step up to Test level seamlessly should he be required to. Ben Youngs, who would be the next in line, has not really hit the heights of 4 years ago and is a big drop of from the two shoe ins. Laidlaw may just offer more than him, not just on the pitch.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by funnyExiledScot on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:14 am

Agreed on Laidlaw having an outside chance. I wouldn't pick him personally, but I do think he'd be a great tourist and a cracking contributor to the midweek fixtures. I do think however that one of Danny Care and Ben Youngs will go instead as 3rd choice.

I think GC is pretty much spot on. The one curve ball is that Gatland doesn't pay any attention to Scottish rugby, and when interviewed has talked up Richie Gray, Tim Visser and Sean Maitland. All fine players, but not the ones us Scots fans would necessarily pick. He did talk up Hoggy as well of course. Not many rugby fans wouldn't pick Hogg to tour.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by R!skysports on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:34 am

I think Richie has actually out performed Jonny in this 6 Nations

Since moving to France, he has really developed his game and is - i think - as good as J Gray now

J Gray has more years to continue to develop and I think will be the better player at the end of their careers - but R GRay has really impressed me the last year


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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:37 am

R!skysports wrote:I think Richie has actually out performed Jonny in this 6 Nations

Since moving to France, he has really developed his game and is - i think - as good as J Gray now

J Gray has more years to continue to develop and I think will be the better player at the end of their careers - but R GRay has really impressed me the last year


I would tend to agree with this - Richie has been very physical and has thrown himself about well. Jonny still tends to top the stats but I think Richie is more physical in the contact area.

Jonny and Richie both played really well against Ireland but Jonny hasn't stood out since. It is all relative of course as he's still putting massive performances in, just not to the level we saw in the AIs.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 12:18 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Agreed on Laidlaw having an outside chance. I wouldn't pick him personally, but I do think he'd be a great tourist and a cracking contributor to the midweek fixtures. I do think however that one of Danny Care and Ben Youngs will go instead as 3rd choice.

I think GC is pretty much spot on. The one curve ball is that Gatland doesn't pay any attention to Scottish rugby, and when interviewed has talked up Richie Gray, Tim Visser and Sean Maitland. All fine players, but not the ones us Scots fans would necessarily pick. He did talk up Hoggy as well of course. Not many rugby fans wouldn't pick Hogg to tour.

If Halfpenny wasnt a thing Laidlaws chances would be greatly improved as a handy kicking option. But with Farrell likely to tour as a 12 as well that consideration is largley null.
Is he one of teh best 3 at core scrum half duties? I dont think so. 3 of Webb, Murray, Youngs and Care will tour almost without doubt. Its a position with a lot of depth, 5 proven experienced players if not an out and out world class star.

That aside Gatland would hardly be alone in not watching a lot of scottish rugby, half their fans switched off after 5 minutes.

I do agree on the wings though, I wouldve thought Seymour was the one with the best claim to a Lions spot unless Gatlands plan is to pick as manay Kiwis as possible just to annoy their media.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by R!skysports on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 12:38 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Agreed on Laidlaw having an outside chance. I wouldn't pick him personally, but I do think he'd be a great tourist and a cracking contributor to the midweek fixtures. I do think however that one of Danny Care and Ben Youngs will go instead as 3rd choice.

I think GC is pretty much spot on. The one curve ball is that Gatland doesn't pay any attention to Scottish rugby, and when interviewed has talked up Richie Gray, Tim Visser and Sean Maitland. All fine players, but not the ones us Scots fans would necessarily pick. He did talk up Hoggy as well of course. Not many rugby fans wouldn't pick Hogg to tour.

If Halfpenny wasnt a thing Laidlaws chances would be greatly improved as a handy kicking option. But with Farrell likely to tour as a 12 as well that consideration is largley null.
Is he one of teh best 3 at core scrum half duties? I dont think so. 3 of Webb, Murray, Youngs and Care will tour almost without doubt. Its a position with a lot of depth, 5 proven experienced players if not an out and out world class star.

That aside Gatland would hardly be alone in not watching a lot of scottish rugby, half their fans switched off after 5 minutes.

I do agree on the wings though, I wouldve thought Seymour was the one with the best claim to a Lions spot unless Gatlands plan is to pick as manay Kiwis as possible just to annoy their media.

In all Honesty, Halfpenny has been very poor this 6 nations and has not earned the right to tour - he will - but shouldn't

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 12:40 pm

1/2p has been poor and even his reliable kicking and high ball takes haven't been as good. His dropped catch against Scotland led to us scoring a try from the resulting scrum a few phases later!

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by BigGee on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 12:43 pm

R!skysports wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Agreed on Laidlaw having an outside chance. I wouldn't pick him personally, but I do think he'd be a great tourist and a cracking contributor to the midweek fixtures. I do think however that one of Danny Care and Ben Youngs will go instead as 3rd choice.

I think GC is pretty much spot on. The one curve ball is that Gatland doesn't pay any attention to Scottish rugby, and when interviewed has talked up Richie Gray, Tim Visser and Sean Maitland. All fine players, but not the ones us Scots fans would necessarily pick. He did talk up Hoggy as well of course. Not many rugby fans wouldn't pick Hogg to tour.

If Halfpenny wasnt a thing Laidlaws chances would be greatly improved as a handy kicking option. But with Farrell likely to tour as a 12 as well that consideration is largley null.
Is he one of teh best 3 at core scrum half duties? I dont think so. 3 of Webb, Murray, Youngs and Care will tour almost without doubt. Its a position with a lot of depth, 5 proven experienced players if not an out and out world class star.

That aside Gatland would hardly be alone in not watching a lot of scottish rugby, half their fans switched off after 5 minutes.

I do agree on the wings though, I wouldve thought Seymour was the one with the best claim to a Lions spot unless Gatlands plan is to pick as manay Kiwis as possible just to annoy their media.

In all Honesty, Halfpenny has been very poor this 6 nations and has not earned the right to tour - he will - but shouldn't

Agree with that, the full backs should be Hoggy and Liam Williams, with one of the wingers, maybe Watson, Maitland or Seymour providing the cover.

Halfpenny is a Gatland favourite though and I do expect him to go and quite possibly be in the test team.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by cascough on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 1:01 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
captain carrantuohil wrote:Think that Hogg and a fit Seymour are definites. Had thought that Jonny Gray was one as well, but such is England's embarrassment of riches, that they'll provide at least three of the locks on tour, with Itoje, Launchbury and Lawes almost racing certainties. I've said elsewhere that I'm fairly sure that Gatland picks A-W J, which leaves an absolute maximum of one vacancy. For me, the contenders are Gray junior and Kruis and so much will depend on whether the (fresher) players who have played little or no part in the 6N are uppermost in Gatland's mind. If they are, then Nel at loose-head definitely comes into the reckoning for the tour party.

Jones at centre is a decent shout, especially as no centres bar the England pair have established an irrefutable case. Dunbar has clearly played himself out of the side after a nightmare of a game. The same, I fear, may be true of Watson, whom I had previously thought a very good idea at 7. Suspect that Gatland is going to settle for power above all else and the true back-row jackals likely to be selected are Welsh.

As for the Scottish halves, fear that Laidlaw's inactivity is probably going to tell against him. Murray and Webb are a lay-down misere to tour and would guess that one of the two English 9s will join them. Russell? Enormous promise but he's not going on this tour, I wouldn't think. Not to New Zealand, not where experience and a cool head are going to be at a premium. It's not a place where one poor, judgement-free game out of every three is going to go unpunished.

That would be a bold move indeed given that he's a tighthead! Very Happy

I also suspect his season is over - he's had a series of neck injuries this season and picked up another one earlier in the year shortly after his return.

How dare you talk about Props for the lions on today of all days. It's Phil Vickery's birthday.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 2:29 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Because there wasn't much power in the tackle of Itoje which rode up and there's nothing wrong with what Haskell did at all as he basically grabbed Hogg as he fell.

Did hogg go off with concussion in the end? Just wondering why the Scottish medical staff took 10 min to get him tested?

It was the ref that sent him for the HIA, as for the hit its similar to the Barrett, Palling incident a few months back.

The first tackle was round the neck and then Haskell mashed his head with a forearm.

The first tackle is definitely a penalty but Haskell's is nothing untoward. As the Saracens prop whose name has escaped me for the moment was cleared of the red Haskell isn't going to get cited and Itoje's not going to get cited as it was a sliding contact and not a full blown hit. As the lack of an assessment for over ten mins suggests. Just don't think the force is there to require a citing review personally.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 3:35 pm

Fraser Brown cleared of any further punishment

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by funnyExiledScot on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 3:37 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Fraser Brown cleared of any further punishment

Lucky boy, but good news nonetheless. He's had an impressive 6 Nations and hopefully will get a shot to unleash his frustrations in a more controlled manner against Italy.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by BigGee on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 4:36 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Fraser Brown cleared of any further punishment

Was not expecting that but very pleased. At the end of the day, the officials debated it at the time and came to their conclusion. It was not ever clear to me why he was cited in the first place.

These things rarely go well, so maybe our luck has turned a little bit.

BBC article saying that FR should be fit as well, so we should have a resemblance of a decent team out there on Saturday.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by BigGee on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 5:01 pm

Italian team out, Favaro and Campagnaro both out.

That's a bit of a blow to them, two of their best players. I bet FR is glad that Simone won't be lining him up though.

It is a little bit of a problem for SF, for all his heart on his sleeve devotion to the cause, it does take a lot out of him and he rarely manages to string more than a couple of games together. Something that Glasgow have probably factored in when deciding to let him go.

All the more reason for him to try and pick up a big contract this time around, it is hard to see him playing on into his 30s.

Still hopefully he will be fit and ready to have a crack at Farrell in the Sarries game.

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 5:12 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Fraser Brown cleared of any further punishment

Lucky boy, but good news nonetheless. He's had an impressive 6 Nations and hopefully will get a shot to unleash his frustrations in a more controlled manner against Italy.

I'm happy with that and I would start him. He needs to get over that match ASAP and the Italy game would be a good one to get his feet underneath him.
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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by tigertattie on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 5:19 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Fraser Brown cleared of any further punishment

Lucky boy, but good news nonetheless. He's had an impressive 6 Nations and hopefully will get a shot to unleash his frustrations in a more controlled manner against Italy.

I'm happy with that and I would start him. He needs to get over that match ASAP and the Italy game would be a good one to get his feet underneath him.

and for him to keep his opponents under the horizontal?

Too soon?
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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by tigertattie on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 5:22 pm

BigGee wrote:Italian team out, Favaro and Campagnaro both out.

That's a bit of a blow to them, two of their best players. I bet FR is glad that Simone won't be lining him up though.

It is a little bit of a problem for SF, for all his heart on his sleeve devotion to the cause, it does take a lot out of him and he rarely manages to string more than a couple of games together. Something that Glasgow have probably factored in when deciding to let him go.

All the more reason for him to try and pick up a big contract this time around, it is hard to see him playing on into his 30s.

Still hopefully he will be fit and ready to have a crack at Farrell in the Sarries game.

I never like seeing players injured! opponents or otherwise! When you are playing a game of international rugby it is a test and each time you should want to play the best team you can to challenge yourself and continually improve!

Favaro is great and Campy is hands down the best player in the Italian team (yes he's even better than Parisse). It's a shame that they won't be playing but at least Dunbar and Jones won't have to worry about defending against Campagnaro!
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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

Post by majesticimperialman on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 5:43 pm

With regards to this game. The way i understand is at the moment with regards to positions in the table
Scotland are above Wales and France. i think that is right.

Now no one really expects Scotland to lose this week end. do they?

So ( IF ) Scotland beat Italy, and Wales beat France...Do Scotland stay above Wales?...Or do Wales move above Scotland?

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Re: 6N 2017 : Scotland vs Italy Murrayfield Edinburgh "THE BACKLASH?"

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