6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

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6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by George Carlin on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 6:15 pm

  
IRELAND v ENGLAND
18 March 2017
KO: 17:00 GMT
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Referee: Jerome Garces (France)
Touch judges: Mathieu Raynal (France) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

Live on [BBC, RTE, DMAX, FR2, ITV (H)]

A. Head to Head

131 Played 131
47 Won 76
8 Drawn 8
76 Lost 47
1,079 Points 1,526

B. Recent Form

27 February 2016
Twickenham, London
21 – 10 to England

5 September 2015
Twickenham, London
21 – 13 to England

1 March 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
19 – 9 to Ireland

22 February 2014
Twickenham, London
13 – 10 to England

10 February 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
6 – 12 to England

17 March 2012
Twickenham, London
30 – 9 to England

C. Teams

IRELAND

Payne; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Zebo; Sexton, Marmion; McGrath, Best (captain), Furlong; Ryan, Henderson; Stander, O'Brien, Heaslip,

Replacements: Scannell, Healy, Ryan, Toner, O'Mahony, McGrath, Jackson, Conway.

ENGLAND

Brown; Watson, Joseph, Farrell, Daly; Ford, Youngs; Marler, Hartley (captain), Cole; Launchbury, Lawes; Itoje, Haskell, B Vunipola.

Replacements: George, M Vunipola, Sinckler, Wood, Hughes, Care, Te'o, Nowell.


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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by EnglishReign on Mon 13 Mar 2017, 6:47 pm

Surprising looking at that recent form, doesn't feel like we've been that dominant. It wasn't too long ago when England couldn't get a win against Ireland for love nor money - home or away.

Can't call this one at all. Ireland had the squad to get a slam, no doubt about that, but they find themselves with two losses. They will be determined to end our streak and, at the moment, I've got a bad feeling they will.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by rapidsnowman on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 7:13 am

The only thing in Ireland's favour is the venue.

Everything else is advantage England.

This England team is starting to show that the pressure of expectation doesn't adversely affect it.

Ireland ended the All Blacks world record winning run; can lightning strike twice? Fingers Crossed

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 7:58 am

More than capable of lightening striking twice. Ireland are still a quality side and the tactics some have been critical of should work well against England. Really important that players like Itoje, Haskell and Hughes bring an intensity and physicality where we've seen previous sides blown away. After watching Wales come off second best under high balls not particularly looking forward to that either.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 8:06 am

I'm not sure how the tactics of using static ball carriers repeatedly should work well against England. Quite the contrary.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 8:14 am

Ireland to win by 10+ Sad

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 8:19 am

Big guys running at close to the fringes. Big runners running between Ford and Farrell. Lots of balls for Daly to gather, if he plays. It's very possible England could get swamped. I'm hopeful. I think England can do it but I'm not putting money on it.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:02 am

rapidsnowman wrote:The only thing in Ireland's favour is the venue.

Everything else is advantage England.

This England team is starting to show that the pressure of expectation doesn't adversely affect it.

Ireland ended the All Blacks world record winning run; can lightning strike twice? Fingers Crossed

Yes, Ireland to hammer England and rain on their parade. The win v Scotland was a flash in the pan. England have been poor enough leading up to that.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by Scottrf on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:11 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Yes, Ireland to hammer England and rain on their parade. The win v Scotland was a flash in the pan. England have been poor enough leading up to that.
So have Ireland. Lost two games if you didn't notice. Not sure how poor winning in Cardiff is either.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by yappysnap on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:22 am

Amazed we've won so many! In my head it feels like the two teams have been 50/50 for the past few years.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:23 am

Scottrf wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Yes, Ireland to hammer England and rain on their parade. The win v Scotland was a flash in the pan. England have been poor enough leading up to that.
So have Ireland. Lost two games if you didn't notice. Not sure how poor winning in Cardiff is either.

Don't worry about GG's predictions - after all he stated with utmost confidence that Scotland would beat England. Personally, as evidenced by a previous post, I do believe that after what has been a rather ropey 6Ns for Ireland so far, the hosts will deliver their best performance of 2017 and have too much ferocity for England. GG's prediction has given me hope however that maybe we can win. Not much, but enough to cling to.

As with last week IF England can play close to their potential, I believe they have more than enough to win, irrespective of Irish performance levels. However unlike Scotland, who had a style ready made for us, Ireland will be able to set us on our heels with a more powerful game. I am pretty sure that they will look to target Nowell and Watson's positioning (assuming Daly's broken nose and blurred vision keeps him out) more than Scotland did. England cannot let the home team build up any meaningful lead.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:26 am

yappysnap wrote:Amazed we've won so many! In my head it feels like the two teams have been 50/50 for the past few years.

Well, we have won 6 of the last 7 matches (since the pounding in 2011 in similar circumstances to this). Before that we won only 1 (the Cipriani game in 2008) of 8 matches since the 2003 GS win.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by yappysnap on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:33 am

Yea see that's what I remember, that horrible long spell of always losing to them.

Now I guess the shoes on the other foot and it's a strange feeling!

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by yappysnap on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:37 am

Ireland's aggression and confrontational style, if they manage to bring it, should be a challenge for this England team.

Physically they're pretty comparable and when on form will match our power players, obviously last week they were well off that but I think pride and being at home will play a big part.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:37 am

I wonder will Eddie Jones still be as smug as ever if England lose? Should that be the real question here?

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:39 am

yappysnap wrote:Yea see that's what I remember, that horrible long spell of always losing to them.

Now I guess the shoes on the other foot and it's a strange feeling!

Well England have only won once in Dublin in the six nations in 10 years.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by englandglory4ever on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:44 am

There are two distinct possibilities where Ireland may score. 1. An interception pass. 2. A chip and gather over the England 3/4 line. 3. A fumbled high ball supported by a quick chase. Well that's 3 I know but that's about it. If England can negate those tactics Ireland won't have much else.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:47 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I wonder will Eddie Jones still be as smug as ever if England lose? Should that be the real question here?

Only for people uninterested in talking about rugby.


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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by englandglory4ever on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:52 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I wonder will Eddie Jones still be as smug as ever if England lose? Should that be the real question here?

More jealousy here I'm afraid. You need to look at yourself if you have to worry about things like that. In fact IMO Jones is surprised the run has gone on so long and is expecting to lose anytime soon. Its just that he is working even harder so that doesn't happen. But obviously it will happen at some point then you can gloat all you like. Bit sad really.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 9:53 am

Interesting article in the Times today. Unable to post it because of the paywall, but it compares the styles of Schmidt and Jones - describing them both as more old school coaches who utiles fear over encouragement. Irish players supposedly refer to Schmidt as Schmdtler (behind his back) and bot coaches have been known to reduce players to tears. Jones claims to be changing and relying more on "hugs" but the journo was a tad sceptical about how far he has changed.

Most interesting comparison was with their approach to on-field matters. Of course this is simplistic, but the inference was that Schmidt likes to micro-manage the tactics and the players given clear instructions on what to do when, with the players knowing they will be bawled out for any mistakes. The article then goes on to describe Jones as someone who is encouraging the players to come up with their own solutions (which they were lacking in perhaps against Italy) and so long as the intentions fit the plans then mistakes will not be overly criticised. I suspect the journalist may have been listening too much to what Eddie says without a critical gaze applied.


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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:09 am

englandglory4ever wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:I wonder will Eddie Jones still be as smug as ever if England lose? Should that be the real question here?

More jealousy here I'm afraid. You need to look at yourself if you have to worry about things like that. In fact IMO Jones is surprised the run has gone on so long and is expecting to lose anytime soon. Its just that he is working even harder so that doesn't happen. But obviously it will  happen at some point then you can gloat all you like. Bit sad really.

The thing I'm looking forward to the most is when the fawning English media inevitably turn on Jones as soon as his motor mouth catches up on him. That will be fun to behold.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:15 am

He does like to take the Mourinho/Ferguson route of talking and taking coverage, especially negative coverage, away from his team. If they do go on a negative spiral as some have suggested with Jones being s boom or bust coach he will want that ire to he on him.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:16 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:He does like to take the Mourinho/Ferguson route of talking and taking coverage, especially negative coverage, away from his team. If they do go on a negative spiral as some have suggested with Jones being s boom or bust coach he will want that ire to he on him.

I think it is more to do with him loving the attention rather than any particular tactic.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by beshocked on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:20 am

Most important Irishman is Best IMO - hasn't been good at lineout time in the 2 losses.

Ireland will need him to be on form.

Plus from his perspective another poor performance could see him not making the Lions at all.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:21 am

Really? I think it's more obvious where his team has played badly like italy. Initial press attention was Jones says Italy don't play rugby, rather than under par England scrape bonus point win. I would suspect that sort of comment would be more prevalent should we start losing.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:28 am

beshocked wrote:Most important Irishman is Best IMO - hasn't been good at lineout time in the 2 losses.

Ireland will need him to be on form.

Plus from his perspective another poor performance could see him not making the Lions at all.

Very doubtful. There are always three hookers on tour. Given that he has been over all the most on form hooker in the tournament its unlikely he will miss out completely.

Who has been better than Best?

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by rodders on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:35 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Most important Irishman is Best IMO - hasn't been good at lineout time in the 2 losses.

Ireland will need him to be on form.

Plus from his perspective another poor performance could see him not making the Lions at all.

Very doubtful. There are always three hookers on tour. Given that he has been over all the most on form hooker in the tournament its unlikely he will miss out completely.

Who has been better than Best?

He was the best hooker last time too and Gats still left him off the original touring party.

Gats will take Hartley(c), George and some fella from Wales.
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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by beshocked on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:35 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Most important Irishman is Best IMO - hasn't been good at lineout time in the 2 losses.

Ireland will need him to be on form.

Plus from his perspective another poor performance could see him not making the Lions at all.

Very doubtful. There are always three hookers on tour. Given that he has been over all the most on form hooker in the tournament its unlikely he will miss out completely.

Who has been better than Best?

George,Hartley and Owens.

Hartley hasn't been particularly good himself but he's been marginally better than Best. Plus whether I like Hartley or not he's not had lineout howlers like Best. Best has had 2.

It's fine margins. One more poor performance could see Best not touring.

Owens is Welsh so has an inbuilt advantage, George has an advantage too plus he's the form hooker.

Hartley whilst poor in the 1st 3 games put in a better performance vs Scotland which could see him moving ahead of Best.

Plus England winning inevitably works in the English hookers' favour.


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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by miaow on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:35 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Most important Irishman is Best IMO - hasn't been good at lineout time in the 2 losses.

Ireland will need him to be on form.

Plus from his perspective another poor performance could see him not making the Lions at all.

Very doubtful. There are always three hookers on tour. Given that he has been over all the most on form hooker in the tournament its unlikely he will miss out completely.

Who has been better than Best?

Ken Owens, Guirado, and- up until last weekend- Fraser Brown. You then have a decent case for saying Hartley's captained his team and thrown into the lineout better than Best has, and that George has shown he can make the Tour based on his ability, albeit from the bench, too.

Another poor performance at the lineout, and I genuinely think Best misses out.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:37 am

Dear God guys, enough of the lily-livered stuff. Ireland have been distinctly average and it’s a bit of an indictment of this year’s 6N that despite this mediocrity they still lie 2nd. England have slowly improved, despite not being great themselves, and have rightly taken the title. Ireland would have to play like heathens and England like 3rd form school girls for Ireland to win this one – they’re just not good enough. If I were EJ I’d give the English 1st team a bit of a rest so they’re fit for the Lions and give our reserves a bit of an outing.
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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by rodders on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:40 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Dear God guys, enough of the lily-livered stuff. Ireland have been distinctly average and it’s a bit of an indictment of this year’s 6N that despite this mediocrity they still lie 2nd. England have slowly improved, despite not being great themselves, and have rightly taken the title. Ireland would have to play like heathens and England like 3rd form school girls for Ireland to win this one – they’re just not good enough. If I were EJ I’d give the English 1st team a bit of a rest so they’re fit for the Lions and give our reserves a bit of an outing.

Yea but we've Ferg McFadden back now.
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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by TightHEAD on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:46 am

England by 12pts
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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by George Carlin on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 10:53 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Dear God guys, enough of the lily-livered stuff. Ireland have been distinctly average and it’s a bit of an indictment of this year’s 6N that despite this mediocrity they still lie 2nd. England have slowly improved, despite not being great themselves, and have rightly taken the title. Ireland would have to play like heathens and England like 3rd form school girls for Ireland to win this one – they’re just not good enough. If I were EJ I’d give the English 1st team a bit of a rest so they’re fit for the Lions and give our reserves a bit of an outing.
Rather at odds with the NZ coaching team's recent statement that the quality of this 6 Nations and the competitiveness of the games means that this crop of Lions tourists could be one of the best ever. Feel free to brush that off as an attempt to sell tickets if you like, but there are reasons to agree with them.
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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:02 am

miaow wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Most important Irishman is Best IMO - hasn't been good at lineout time in the 2 losses.

Ireland will need him to be on form.

Plus from his perspective another poor performance could see him not making the Lions at all.

Very doubtful. There are always three hookers on tour. Given that he has been over all the most on form hooker in the tournament its unlikely he will miss out completely.

Who has been better than Best?

Ken Owens, Guirado, and- up until last weekend- Fraser Brown. You then have a decent case for saying Hartley's captained his team and thrown into the lineout better than Best has, and that George has shown he can make the Tour based on his ability, albeit from the bench, too.

Another poor performance at the lineout, and I genuinely think Best misses out.

Guirado cant be selected for the Lions, silly comment. So if only Ken Owens has been better over all that must mean that Best is a shoe in for inclusion if three are selected?

Hartley definitely has not been better, George hasn't featured enough to be considered better and Brown hasn't exactly made a rock solid case for himself.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by TightHEAD on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:17 am

Best is an awful Hooker choice for the Lions.
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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by beshocked on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:20 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
miaow wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Most important Irishman is Best IMO - hasn't been good at lineout time in the 2 losses.

Ireland will need him to be on form.

Plus from his perspective another poor performance could see him not making the Lions at all.

Very doubtful. There are always three hookers on tour. Given that he has been over all the most on form hooker in the tournament its unlikely he will miss out completely.

Who has been better than Best?

Ken Owens, Guirado, and- up until last weekend- Fraser Brown. You then have a decent case for saying Hartley's captained his team and thrown into the lineout better than Best has, and that George has shown he can make the Tour based on his ability, albeit from the bench, too.

Another poor performance at the lineout, and I genuinely think Best misses out.

Guirado cant be selected for the Lions, silly comment. So if only Ken Owens has been better over all that must mean that Best is a shoe in for inclusion if three are selected?

Hartley definitely has not been better, George hasn't featured enough to be considered better and Brown hasn't exactly made a rock solid case for himself.

Best has been a liability at lineout time for Ireland vs Scotland and Wales. Do that vs NZ and they'll brutally expose that weakness.

Owens,Hartley and George all more reliable in that area.

Best needs a good game at lineout time.


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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by TightHEAD on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:23 am

It has always been Bests weakness.
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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:32 am

beshocked wrote:Best has been a liability at lineout time for Ireland vs Scotland and Wales. Do that vs NZ and they'll brutally expose that weakness.

Owens,Hartley and George all more reliable in that area.

Can you back that up by stats?

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:33 am

Bests throwing has been fine. Irelands lineout issues are more down to the fact that we only have two good jumpers when POM doesnt start. The throws tend to go wrong when they go to Stander who isnt the tallest guy. Each time we lost out lineout against Wales the call was anticipated by AWJ, that isnt a throwing issue.

There is a lot more to a lineout than just the throw.


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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by TightHEAD on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:34 am

Best bottles it when it really matters.
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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:34 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
beshocked wrote:Best has been a liability at lineout time for Ireland vs Scotland and Wales. Do that vs NZ and they'll brutally expose that weakness.

Owens,Hartley and George all more reliable in that area.

Can you back that up by stats?

Ireland statistically did well in the lineout in both tests v NZ.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:35 am

TightHEAD wrote:Best bottles it when it really matters.

Hartley gets banned when it really matters.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:35 am

It's true England have a bit of a luxury at the lineout. 3 locks on the pitch along with Haskell and Hughes. 2 very good throwers.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by TightHEAD on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:36 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
beshocked wrote:Best has been a liability at lineout time for Ireland vs Scotland and Wales. Do that vs NZ and they'll brutally expose that weakness.

Owens,Hartley and George all more reliable in that area.

Can you back that up by stats?

Ireland statistically did well in the lineout in both tests v NZ.

Stop wumming Guns.
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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by Scottrf on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:38 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
beshocked wrote:Best has been a liability at lineout time for Ireland vs Scotland and Wales. Do that vs NZ and they'll brutally expose that weakness.

Owens,Hartley and George all more reliable in that area.

Can you back that up by stats?
England won 44 lost 0.
Wales won 49 lost 2.
Ireland won 52 lost 5.

But it's also about quality of ball. A few tries in the Scotland game to show how quickly it gets to the backs from the lineout.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:38 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
beshocked wrote:Best has been a liability at lineout time for Ireland vs Scotland and Wales. Do that vs NZ and they'll brutally expose that weakness.

Owens,Hartley and George all more reliable in that area.

Can you back that up by stats?

Ireland statistically did well in the lineout in both tests v NZ.

They won a higher percentage of lineouts in Christchurch that time too.
http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/153844.html

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:39 am

TightHEAD wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
beshocked wrote:Best has been a liability at lineout time for Ireland vs Scotland and Wales. Do that vs NZ and they'll brutally expose that weakness.

Owens,Hartley and George all more reliable in that area.

Can you back that up by stats?

Ireland statistically did well in the lineout in both tests v NZ.

Stop wumming Guns.

Best would walk into the England team. England is much better than the sum of its parts at the moment. For some reason England rarely creates really world class players. Hartley is over fed and over hyped.

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by TightHEAD on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:41 am

The trouble is Best would walk around the field too the speed at which we play at.
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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by beshocked on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:42 am

scottrf to be honest the lineouts stats are a little dodgy because Hartley has lost at least 2 but he's been more reliable than Best.

Best certainly lost multiple vs Wales and Scotland, the ball wasn't great either.


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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

Post by Scottrf on Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:43 am

beshocked wrote:scottrf to be honest the lineouts stats are a little dodgy because Hartley has lost at least 2 but he's been more reliable than Best.

Best certainly lost multiple vs Wales and Scotland, the ball wasn't great either.
I thought he lost it when he threw it at Itoje's (?) head, but did we gather?

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Re: 6N 2017: Ireland v England, 18 March

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