Lions by Country

by alive555 Sat 18 Mar 2017 - 20:01

First topic message reminder :

here's some options at what the split could be assuming gatland picks on form

England - 16
Ireland - 9
Scotland - 7
Wales - 5

or

England - 15
Ireland - 9
Scotland - 7
Wales - 6

or

England - 14
Ireland - 10
Scotland - 7
Wales - 6

my personal guess it will be:-

England - 16
Ireland - 11
Wales - 9
Scotland - 3

discuss!

by **rodders** Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:06

Just out of interest how many times have England, Scotland and Wales played and toured NZ in the past decade?

Sean O'Brien, Donnacha Ryan and Rory Best in particular have a recent history of big performances against the ABs. As well as the recent win in Chicago there was the last gap defeat defeat in 2013 and I think it was 2012 Ireland came incredibly close down in NZ as well in the second test with Carter hitting a late drop goal to deny Ireland a draw.

England obviously had the controversial noro-virus assisted win a few seasons ago but which other players has a recent track record of performing against NZ?

by Gooseberry Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:08

The papers are reporting a 37 man squad.

Presumably they have to be fairly close on numbers so they make sure the right number of cuddly toys are ordered

by SecretFly Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:12

Hartley has just requested a bone. That should keep him mostly calm until he gets onto the field.

by Scottrf Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:13

Gooseberry wrote:The papers are reporting a 37 man squad.

Presumably they have to be fairly close on numbers so they make sure the right number of cuddly toys are ordered

Based on the last tours. Not seen evidence of a limit.

by Gooseberry Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:16

rodders wrote:Just out of interest how many times have England, Scotland and Wales played and toured NZ in the past decade?

Sean O'Brien, Donnacha Ryan and Rory Best in particular have a recent history of big performances against the ABs. As well as the recent win in Chicago there was the last gap defeat defeat in 2013 and I think it was 2012 Ireland came incredibly close down in NZ as well in the second test with Carter hitting a late drop goal to deny Ireland a draw.

England obviously had the controversial noro-virus assisted win a few seasons ago but which other players has a recent track record of performing against NZ?

How many of them played in the 61-0?

Scotland havent played them at all since 2014, and havent toured since ..god knows when, certainly not with any of the current players. Just goes to show that the All Blacks have been buffing their record by ducking the good NH sides recently.

by Gooseberry Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:19

Scottrf wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:The papers are reporting a 37 man squad.

Presumably they have to be fairly close on numbers so they make sure the right number of cuddly toys are ordered
Based on the last tours. Not seen evidence of a limit.

Yeah I dont think its a contractualy enforced limit, and they certainbly will call up players as the tour progresses (not just as cover for serious injuries)...but they tend to pre-announce the number that are in the inmitial selection. I guess as much as anything else it helps the selection panel focus on teh tough decisions ratehr than just fudging everyone in to hedge their bets/avoid upsetting people. There may also be coinsiderations with budgets as well.

by SecretFly Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:20

61-0 was a fake result put out by the Russians straight after we left.

We won that game comfortably 7 - 23 but of course all footage has now been tampered with.

by **rodders** Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:21

Gooseberry wrote:
rodders wrote:Just out of interest how many times have England, Scotland and Wales played and toured NZ in the past decade?

Sean O'Brien, Donnacha Ryan and Rory Best in particular have a recent history of big performances against the ABs. As well as the recent win in Chicago there was the last gap defeat defeat in 2013 and I think it was 2012 Ireland came incredibly close down in NZ as well in the second test with Carter hitting a late drop goal to deny Ireland a draw.

England obviously had the controversial noro-virus assisted win a few seasons ago but which other players has a recent track record of performing against NZ?

How many of them played in the 61-0?

Scotland havent played them at all since 2014, and havent toured since ..god knows when, certainly not with any of the current players. Just goes to show that the All Blacks have been buffing their record by ducking the good NH sides recently.

That fits my assessment that the backbone of the squad needs to be Irish. The other nations just don't have the experience playing down there. It's a different ball game to playing at Twickers and the Principality stadium with the officials on your side.

England and Wales in particular have been taking too many soft tours down to Australia to pad their records and I'd be worried about how they would manage down mentally in NZ, where things will be hostile.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:22

George Carlin wrote:Let's talk flankers.

Most reporters plopping out their Lions 15 now seem to have a concerted boner for Sam Warbuton and so, whilst not having watched 2 of the Wales games, I will take it at face value that he is now playing well and the fact he is a fomer Wales captain, Lions tourist and Gatland favourite means that is highly likely to travel.

What is not so straighforward and not explained at all are the people who just automatically assume that Tipuric will travel too and drop him straight into a Lions squad as well. It is happening a lot in major newspapers so I just wondered what Wales fans made of this.

If comparing types, did he really play better than Hamish Watson? Is he clearly better than Sean O'Brien, James Haskell or Josh Van Der Flier? Is he more versatile than John Barclay, another very good openside in his own right?

This is not a WUM - I am just interested to know what fans think, especially Welsh fans.

Warburton has been playing well, but I don't know where all the Tipuric Praise is coming from. Warburton has been consistently excellent in all of his games and as it stands i'd have a Lions backrow of:

6. POM
7. Warburton
8. Stander

I would also take Watson, O'Brien, Billy V and Moriarty as additional back row players, with a further space being taken up by Tipuric.

by Gooseberry Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:23

rodders wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
rodders wrote:Just out of interest how many times have England, Scotland and Wales played and toured NZ in the past decade?

Sean O'Brien, Donnacha Ryan and Rory Best in particular have a recent history of big performances against the ABs. As well as the recent win in Chicago there was the last gap defeat defeat in 2013 and I think it was 2012 Ireland came incredibly close down in NZ as well in the second test with Carter hitting a late drop goal to deny Ireland a draw.

England obviously had the controversial noro-virus assisted win a few seasons ago but which other players has a recent track record of performing against NZ?

How many of them played in the 61-0?

Scotland havent played them at all since 2014, and havent toured since ..god knows when, certainly not with any of the current players. Just goes to show that the All Blacks have been buffing their record by ducking the good NH sides recently.

That fits my assessment that the backbone of the squad needs to be Irish. The other nations just don't have the experience playing down there. It's a different ball game to playing at Twickers and the Principality stadium with the officials on your side.

England and Wales in particular have been taking too many soft tours down to Australia to pad their records and I'd be worried about how they would manage down mentally in NZ, where things will be hostile.

Well true, The Welsh and Irish players will be much more psychologicaly prepared to be on the end of some horrendous scorelines. Its a fair argument in terms of player welfare.

by Scottrf Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:23

rodders wrote:That fits my assessment that the backbone of the squad needs to be Irish. The other nations just don't have the experience playing down there. It's a different ball game to playing at Twickers and the Principality stadium with the officials on your side.

England and Wales in particular have been taking too many soft tours down to Australia to pad their records and I'd be worried about how they would manage down mentally in NZ, where things will be hostile.

Ireland have won 1 game in 30 and are now specialists in playing NZ Rolling Eyes

by **rodders** Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:27

Gooseberry wrote:
rodders wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
rodders wrote:Just out of interest how many times have England, Scotland and Wales played and toured NZ in the past decade?

Sean O'Brien, Donnacha Ryan and Rory Best in particular have a recent history of big performances against the ABs. As well as the recent win in Chicago there was the last gap defeat defeat in 2013 and I think it was 2012 Ireland came incredibly close down in NZ as well in the second test with Carter hitting a late drop goal to deny Ireland a draw.

England obviously had the controversial noro-virus assisted win a few seasons ago but which other players has a recent track record of performing against NZ?

How many of them played in the 61-0?

Scotland havent played them at all since 2014, and havent toured since ..god knows when, certainly not with any of the current players. Just goes to show that the All Blacks have been buffing their record by ducking the good NH sides recently.

That fits my assessment that the backbone of the squad needs to be Irish. The other nations just don't have the experience playing down there. It's a different ball game to playing at Twickers and the Principality stadium with the officials on your side.

England and Wales in particular have been taking too many soft tours down to Australia to pad their records and I'd be worried about how they would manage down mentally in NZ, where things will be hostile.

Well true, The Welsh and Irish players will be much more psychologicaly prepared to be on the end of some horrendous scorelines. Its a fair argument in terms of player welfare.

Exactly, you wouldn't know what some of the English guys would do under pressure. Can you imagine Haskell and Hartley asking a SH ref in NZ to explain how to create a ruck?

Those guys have no idea what they are in for.

by **rodders** Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:29

Scottrf wrote:
rodders wrote:That fits my assessment that the backbone of the squad needs to be Irish. The other nations just don't have the experience playing down there. It's a different ball game to playing at Twickers and the Principality stadium with the officials on your side.

England and Wales in particular have been taking too many soft tours down to Australia to pad their records and I'd be worried about how they would manage down mentally in NZ, where things will be hostile.

Ireland have won 1 game in 30 and are now specialists in playing NZ

And with two, last minute, one score defeats in the last 5 as well - that puts us best placed to win a test series by a long way I'd say.

by SecretFly Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:30

Scottrf wrote:
rodders wrote:That fits my assessment that the backbone of the squad needs to be Irish. The other nations just don't have the experience playing down there. It's a different ball game to playing at Twickers and the Principality stadium with the officials on your side.

England and Wales in particular have been taking too many soft tours down to Australia to pad their records and I'd be worried about how they would manage down mentally in NZ, where things will be hostile.

Ireland have won 1 game in 30 and are now specialists in playing NZ

No...not specialists, Scott - don't be absurd. Experts is what we are.... experts.

by **rodders** Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:35

So we're all agreed we need the entire Ireland extended squad plus Tipuric, Hogg and Farrell?

by SecretFly Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:39

You can't beat rodders when he cuts out the crap talk and gets down to serious analysis.

I'd question the need for Farrell but Tipuric, Hogg and the Irish senior squad should comfortable take all mid-week games plus three Tests by the skin of their teeth.

by mikey_dragon Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:43

I personally think Warbs is better than Tips and would have Sam as first choice 7, depending on who else makes the starting back-row. Our back-row is the one thing that worked really well this 6N - I wouldn't be surprised to see both Warbs and Tips starting at least one test, much to the dislike of 606v2 Wink

.

by **rodders** Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:45

SecretFly wrote:

I'd question the need for Farrell but Tipuric, Hogg

Well you have to keep the sponsors happy fly.

Unfortunately North or 1/2 penny might get Tipuric's slot as outside Swansea he's just seen as the fella who carries Sam's kit bag around but on merit he'd be my principality pick for sure.

by Tattie Scones RRN Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:46

Accenture's team of the Championship:

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/news/31584.php#eKLi0ozjDiML7AT2.97

by Scottrf Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:47

It's not terrible, but JD favoured based on 'number of carries'. What if he went backwards every time then knocked on the ball?

by SecretFly Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:51

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Accenture's team of the Championship:

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/news/31584.php#eKLi0ozjDiML7AT2.97

Ha! Ha! Nobody was expecting to see Mutt and Jeff (Zebo and Earls) in a team of the Championship. Joe Schmidt has been completely vindicated. Hardest working honest squad in International rugby.
I will not question the man's judgement ever again.... until our next game.

by mikey_dragon Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:53

Scottrf wrote:It's not terrible, but JD favoured based on 'number of carries'. What if he went backwards every time then knocked on the ball?

He didn't. That sounds a lot like someone on here saying Nathan Hughes was awesome against Wales because of a somewhat favourable meter's made stat. It was as like that because once he caught the ball where the winger should be and ran it back; and the second time he ran at Alex Cuthbert, who then somehow scampered back and tackled him. Hughes got smashed every time he ran at our back-row.

by Scottrf Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:57

Didn't say he diid, just that it's a bad stat to show anything other than involvement.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 11:59

Picking a team from stats is nigh on impossible unless you go for one where a player is clearly ahead of the rest and just pick him on that. I'm intrigued what a successful kick from open play actually is?

by Scottrf Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 12:02

No 7&1/2 wrote:Picking a team from stats is nigh on impossible unless you go for one where a player is clearly ahead of the rest and just pick him on that. I'm intrigued what a successful kick from open play actually is?

Not kicking out on the full or being charged down I guess. The numbers seem too high to judge anything else.

by mikey_dragon Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 12:04

Scottrf wrote:Didn't say he diid, just that it's a bad stat to show anything other than involvement.

I thought JD2 was poor going into the 6N but he was good for Wales. Having said that I didn't originally pick him for the Lions. Now that Huw Jones is injured he might be back within a shout.

by Cyril Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 12:13

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Accenture's team of the Championship:

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/news/31584.php#eKLi0ozjDiML7AT2.97

The bit in Keith Earls's write-up confused me.

With eight clean breaks and three tries, Keith Earls was one of the most potent threats in the Championship, helping Ireland to second place in the table.

Surely Ireland were joint 4th with France and Scotland.

by Scottrf Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 12:16

Can't remember how the scoring works if you don't win the Championship with a week to spare tbh.

by Cyril Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 12:17

Scottrf wrote:Can't remember how the scoring works if you don't win the Championship with a week to spare tbh.

by rapidsnowman Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 12:20

That'll be why your team didn't show up on the last weekend Very Happy

by SecretFly Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 12:20

Cyril wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Accenture's team of the Championship:

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/news/31584.php#eKLi0ozjDiML7AT2.97

The bit in Keith Earls's write-up confused me.

With eight clean breaks and three tries, Keith Earls was one of the most potent threats in the Championship, helping Ireland to second place in the table.

Surely Ireland were joint 4th with France and Scotland.

One, two, three, four. That's how Play School and Sesame Street did it anyway back in the day.

So joint 2nd, 3rd and 4th. That's three positions each that we share with France and Scotland. That's some performance from all three! England only have one laughing

Don't worry. You can try again next year, Cyril.

by Cyril Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 12:21

rapidsnowman wrote:That'll be why your team didn't show up on the last weekend

True. The party had already started. They certainly played like they had been on the pop RedWine

by Cyril Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 12:22

SecretFly wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Accenture's team of the Championship:

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/news/31584.php#eKLi0ozjDiML7AT2.97

The bit in Keith Earls's write-up confused me.

With eight clean breaks and three tries, Keith Earls was one of the most potent threats in the Championship, helping Ireland to second place in the table.

Surely Ireland were joint 4th with France and Scotland.

One, two, three, four. That's how Play School and Sesame Street did it anyway back in the day.

So joint 2nd, 3rd and 4th. That's three positions each that we share with France and Scotland. That's some performance from all three! England only have one Don't worry. You can try again next year, Cyril.

2nd and 3rd place were retired this year (to make room for Eddie's ego) king

by **rodders** Wed 22 Mar 2017 - 12:32

Cyril wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Accenture's team of the Championship:

http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/news/31584.php#eKLi0ozjDiML7AT2.97

The bit in Keith Earls's write-up confused me.

With eight clean breaks and three tries, Keith Earls was one of the most potent threats in the Championship, helping Ireland to second place in the table.

Surely Ireland were joint 4th with France and Scotland.

Well given that England actually played Italy at Net ball rather than Rugby I'd suggest they also finished on 14 points.

by GunsGermsV2 Thu 23 Mar 2017 - 16:33

Peyper, Garcès and Poite have been named the three refs for the Lions tests. Not bad I think though Id rather the SH ref not to ref first as that is IMO he best chance to get a win v NZ.

For the last 3 Lions tests there have been 2 SH refs and one Frenchman so this makes a nice change.

by **George Carlin** Thu 23 Mar 2017 - 19:02

No 7&1/2 wrote:Picking a team from stats is nigh on impossible unless you go for one where a player is clearly ahead of the rest and just pick him on that. I'm intrigued what a successful kick from open play actually is?

It's when you find touch 'morally',

by chris_501 Thu 23 Mar 2017 - 19:41

George Carlin wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Picking a team from stats is nigh on impossible unless you go for one where a player is clearly ahead of the rest and just pick him on that. I'm intrigued what a successful kick from open play actually is?
It's when you find touch 'morally',

I thought it was when you swing your leg and make contact with the ball as opposed to swinging your leg and missing?

by whocares Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 0:29

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Peyper, Garcès and Poite have been named the three refs for the Lions tests. Not bad I think though Id rather the SH ref not to ref first as that is IMO he best chance to get a win v NZ.

For the last 3 Lions tests there have been 2 SH refs and one Frenchman so this makes a nice change.

Probably because it was already difficult to find one decent French ref to start with!

by GunsGermsV2 Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 9:22

Garces and Poite are good IMO.

Peyper reffed Irelands test v NZ in Dublin this year. Not a bad ref at all. Could be a very physical game in the first test as Peyper will let a lot go.

by rapidsnowman Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 9:31

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Could be a very physical game in the first test as Peyper will let a lot go.

Lets hope Warren starts POM then!

by GunsGermsV2 Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 9:57

rapidsnowman wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Could be a very physical game in the first test as Peyper will let a lot go.

Lets hope Warren starts POM then!

Backrow is a massive area of strength for the Lions. I reckon we could select three or four different combinations in the back row and get the better of NZ.

6. Stander, POM, Warburton, Itoje (better as a lock)
7. Watson, SOB, Robshaw, Warburton, Haskall, VdF, Tipuric
8. Stander, Vunapola, Heaslip, Moriarty, Falateau

Plenty of options there.

by rapidsnowman Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 10:06

I don't think any of them bring the same level of guile and and doggedness that POM brings.

Others are more powerful, more athletic and better 'jackals', but POM is the ultimate thorn in the side for the opposition.

by rapidsnowman Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 10:10

6. POM
7. Warby
8. Stander or Billy (One of these 2 to come on as an impact sub)

by Hammersmith harrier Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 10:12

rapidsnowman wrote:6. POM
7. Warby
8. Stander or Billy (One of these 2 to come on as an impact sub)

I was thinking the same thing and would favour Billy over Stander.

by rapidsnowman Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 10:16

Stander coming on with 30 minutes to go could slot at either 6 or 8 and would redefine the term impact!

by chris_501 Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 11:17

Midweek backrow of O'Brien, Tipuric and Faletau with Haskell on the bench isn't too bad either!

by GunsGermsV2 Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 11:34

rapidsnowman wrote:I don't think any of them bring the same level of guile and and doggedness that POM brings.

Others are more powerful, more athletic and better 'jackals', but POM is the ultimate thorn in the side for the opposition.

I dont know I think NZ would prefer to face POM than SOB who they tend to struggle against.

McCaw recently singled SOB out as the back row forward in world rugby that gave him the biggest test on the field.

POM is a great lineout operator but I think the Lions will have a strong enough second row that they wont necessarily need POM.

I see him more as a mid week captain if he is selected at all.

POM is a very committed player but sometimes you need a bit more than lots of huff and puff.

by GunsGermsV2 Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 11:35

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
rapidsnowman wrote:6. POM
7. Warby
8. Stander or Billy (One of these 2 to come on as an impact sub)

I was thinking the same thing and would favour Billy over Stander.

Probably not on form. Billy V wasn't great v Ireland.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 11:42

Billy has been back from injury for a few weeks, he shouldn't have started against Ireland. Billy is better 8 than Stander but I'd have him at 6 anyway.

by **rodders** Fri 24 Mar 2017 - 11:56

If Tipuric and Warbs go.

I think the backrows will be the 2 Welsh flankers, Stander, Billy V with Itoje providing cover at 6.

Gat's might take Henderson too so that is 6 well covered so not sure POM will be at the races.

Haskell I think will take the final spot.

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