Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

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Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:02 am

Results

Scotland 27 - Ireland 22 Yahoo
France 22 - Scotland 16  Crying or Very sad
Scotland 29 - Wales 13  Yahoo
England 61 - Scotland 21  Shocked
Scotland 29 - Italy 0  Yahoo

Some stats:

- First time with 3 wins since 2006
- First opening round win and win over Wales in over a decade
- 14 tries scored - our best ever
- Our highest points tally (in 2014 we scored 45 points  Shocked )
- Up to 5th in the World Rankings


Verdict

Bar Twickenham this was a fantastic 6N where we won our games playing great rugby.  It was a huge monkey off our back to beat Wales and the Ireland game was a huge result for us.  The Twickenham game was a complete embarrassment but I'd like to think that was a freak result for this team as opposed to a sign that our wins over Wales and Ireland were 'lucky'.  It should keep the players grounded going forward, which is no bad thing.

All in all I'll give our 6N a 8/10

Lions hopefuls?

Pr - can't see any travelling
H Fraser Brown stands an outside chance, and could be injury cover
L - Jonny or Richie Gray stand a chance in the most competitive position
BR - I don't see any of our backrows going
SH - Laidlaw is down the list in terms of ability at 9 but may be picked as a good tourist/leader for the squad
FH - Finn Russell certainly divides opinion but personally I don't think he will travel
C - Dunbar and Jones are outside bets in what isn't actually a great position of depth for the Lions, but again may find themselves as injury cover
FR - Hogg is a near certainty and I can see another winger getting picked, probably Seymour

My prediction:

J Gray, Hogg, Seymour in the squad, Brown, Laidlaw and Jones as first choice injury cover.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:04 am

Personally I'm just happy I've not had to use the term 'postmortem' in the title for once!

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:11 am

I think it was an outstanding tournament. If you offered me 3 home wins at the start of the tournament you would have drawn back a stump.

What is really annoying me though is that despite a great tournament, I think we have been seen as lucky and not really worth the wins.

We beat Wales because they had an off day, and Ireland played bad against us and blah blah blah.

We were by far the better team in those games and it has counted for nothing.
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by TJ on Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:14 am

Before the series started and last year I had fairly vigorous debates with a few posters on here about what would constitute a good 6N. for me 3 wins is the minimum acceptable and we got it. Very unfortunate not to be in the top half as well'

Overall - B+ performance

France was a game we let get away - but thats better than last year when we let 3 games get away

The england game was an embarrassment but scoring 3 tries is a small consolation. IMO it was just a perfect storm. Scotland needed to put pressure on England from the off but Browns yellow handed the initiative to England. England early lead meant they could relax and play their game and conversely meant scotland were playing catchup. this Scotland team is set up to attack not to stonewall defend and once we lost our main attacking options to injury we were toothless. Jones had clearly done his homework as well and spotted gaps being left between Dunbar and Jones and exploited that well

We could replay that game many times and we would still get beaten -= but the perfect storm of events meant instead of being competitive we were humped.

Long term it might do some good as it exposed flaws that can be corrected

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:16 am

It's been a ridiculously close competition this year, with some very fine margins making up the difference between 2nd and 4th place. Had we managed to score one more try against England we'd have come 2nd, or had we leaked a couple of tries less we could have been 3rd with a better points difference. And thats not including all the mental permutations from the bonkers ending of the France-Wales match (am I right in thinking if France had missed the conversion at the end we'd have been 2nd?).

Its obviously been a huge improvement for us, but that England score is such an awful stain on our record this year. It's left us with a points difference of only +4, despite all the tries we scored and meant that even with our 3 wins we've still finished in the same position as last year. It is so frustrating. I know there is a much bigger story behind those numbers, but its the numbers that last in the records.

We weren't going to beat England on that day, we just weren't. But we shouldn't have let them put 61 points on us either. I don't think I can agree with an 8/10 rating overall when we've let a 3rd or 2nd place finish slip away by being totally awful in one match. 7/10 as a maximum for me all things considered. Still gutted that Vern has left though Sad

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:18 am

I think we would have been 3rd as France would have only had a draw, but Ireland would still be ahead of us. 3rd probably would have been a fair reflection of our tournament.

I was hoping they would score out wide and miss the difficult conversion!

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:30 am

Ah yeah of course we would. I was getting mixed up because at that stage had that game ended in a draw and England had gone on to beat Ireland we would have finished 2nd

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by tigertattie on Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:32 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think we would have been 3rd as France would have only had a draw, but Ireland would still be ahead of us. 3rd probably would have been a fair reflection of our tournament.

I was hoping they would score out wide and miss the difficult conversion!

Same. I just couldn't bring myself to cheer on Wales!

Obviously the England game was the worst showing but I'm still disappointed in the result against France. We played like headless chickens in that game.

Attacking wise we're pretty potent but we've lost our defensive dog it seems. We're still mentally fragile and if our opponents impose their game on us then we struggle. We need to go back tot he drawing board where it comes to tactical play. Against England and France our kicking game was poor and we needed to ping the ball into the corner a few times for field position then look to get the ball back. I'm hoping that as a young team, we'll have learned a lot from this tournament and can move forward in the years to come.
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Griff on Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:53 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think it was an outstanding tournament. If you offered me 3 home wins at the start of the tournament you would have drawn back a stump.

What is really annoying me though is that despite a great tournament, I think we have been seen as lucky and not really worth the wins.

We beat Wales because they had an off day, and Ireland played bad against us and  blah blah blah.

We were by far the better team in those games and it has counted for nothing.

Get used to it, Radge.  Comes with the territory of winning I'm afraid.  As far back as I remember ALL 6N winners (I'm aware that you didn't win this tournament), but ALL 6N winners have had fans saying their win was devalued because teams were rebuilding, other teams were cr*p, teams had an off day, etc.  If you plan on being at the top end of the table then you need to get used to this sort of thing.  You will NEVER get praise for winning a tournament (or coming close for that matter).  There will always be some factor that means your wins were in part down to deficiencies in the other team(s).

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:01 pm

Griff wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think it was an outstanding tournament. If you offered me 3 home wins at the start of the tournament you would have drawn back a stump.

What is really annoying me though is that despite a great tournament, I think we have been seen as lucky and not really worth the wins.

We beat Wales because they had an off day, and Ireland played bad against us and  blah blah blah.

We were by far the better team in those games and it has counted for nothing.

Get used to it, Radge.  Comes with the territory of winning I'm afraid.  As far back as I remember ALL 6N winners (I'm aware that you didn't win this tournament), but ALL 6N winners have had fans saying their win was devalued because teams were rebuilding, other teams were cr*p, teams had an off day, etc.  If you plan on being at the top end of the table then you need to get used to this sort of thing.  You will NEVER get praise for winning a tournament (or coming close for that matter).  There will always be some factor that means your wins were in part down to deficiencies in the other team(s).

It's a bit sad though, I'm quite happy to praise England when they tonked us, or when Wales used to beat us every year for 10 years. They played better rugby, with greater accuracy, higher intensity and exposed our weaknesses.

Similar to what Scotland did in their victorious matches.
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Griff on Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:04 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Griff wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think it was an outstanding tournament. If you offered me 3 home wins at the start of the tournament you would have drawn back a stump.

What is really annoying me though is that despite a great tournament, I think we have been seen as lucky and not really worth the wins.

We beat Wales because they had an off day, and Ireland played bad against us and  blah blah blah.

We were by far the better team in those games and it has counted for nothing.

Get used to it, Radge.  Comes with the territory of winning I'm afraid.  As far back as I remember ALL 6N winners (I'm aware that you didn't win this tournament), but ALL 6N winners have had fans saying their win was devalued because teams were rebuilding, other teams were cr*p, teams had an off day, etc.  If you plan on being at the top end of the table then you need to get used to this sort of thing.  You will NEVER get praise for winning a tournament (or coming close for that matter).  There will always be some factor that means your wins were in part down to deficiencies in the other team(s).

It's a bit sad though, I'm quite happy to praise England when they tonked us, or when Wales used to beat us every year for 10 years. They played better rugby, with greater accuracy, higher intensity and exposed our weaknesses.

Similar to what Scotland did in their victorious matches.

It is sad. But true. Certainly on here. People will always talk about how weak Italy were that year; how Wales were much poorer than normal; how Ireland had a worse than usual season - these things made it easier for England, blah, blah, blah, etc. Each year people just change the names of those teams to suit!

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by MacKnocked-on on Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:24 pm

What is Scotland's tour fixture list? I know they're playing Australia (once?) and also Fiji but have they arranged any other matches while they are away?

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Shifty on Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:58 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Personally I'm just happy I've not had to use the term 'postmortem' in the title for once!

Nice one you ruined a proud (ish) tradition. laughing

MacKnocked-on wrote:What is Scotland's tour fixture list? I know they're playing Australia (once?) and also Fiji but have they arranged any other matches while they are away?

SATURDAY 17TH JUNE 2017 - Australia V Scotland
SATURDAY 24TH JUNE 2017 - Fiji V Scotland

That's it from what I can see in the Summer.

SATURDAY 11TH NOVEMBER 2017 - Scotland V Samoa
SATURDAY 18TH NOVEMBER 2017 - Scotland V New Zealand
SATURDAY 25TH NOVEMBER 2017 - Scotland V Australia
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by BigGee on Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:42 pm

One of the journos on twitter last night said that we were playing Italy, Australia and Fiji. If that is the case it is a shame that we are only going to play Australia once, I am not sure what is to be gained by playing Italy again, particularly in a foreign land. It is not even going to be a massive draw.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:01 am

Thinking ahead to the summer tour, because we're a fairly young team anyway I don't think there's many players that we could do with capping to get the experience, and I suspect whatever Lions callups we get will force that to happen.

I'd like to see Ben Toolis finally get his chance, especially if Jonny Gray is in the Lions - IMO this is the chance to see what he can do and there's no real point in playing Gilchrist instead.

Earlier in the season I would have said give Kinghorn a run at 15 but his form has been so poor since Christmas I'd be tempted to give him the summer off then do a full pre-season - this is pretty much his first full pro season after all. Saying that, with Hogg away on tour we only really have Maitland covering 15, and I think it is fair to say Murchie is and never will be international class - I suspect he'll be in the squad.

It may also be worth getting Adam Hasting involved, but he is even more green that Kinghorn. We all know Weir isn't the future so maybe it is a good opportunity to bring Hastings through and give him the experience.

Anyway my summer tour squad, assuming for the sake of argument that J gray,Hogg and Seymour are with the Lions:

LH - Dickinson / Sutherland (whoever is fit), Dell, Reid
H - Brown, McInally, Ford
TH - Fagerson, Berghan, Welsh/Nel (depending if Nel is fit)
L - R Gray, Toolis, Swinson, Gilchrist
BR - Barclay, Watson, Strauss, Wilson, CDP

SH - Laidlaw, Price
FH - Russell, Hastings
10/12 - Horne
C - Dunbar, Jones, Taylor, Scott
OB - Visser, Maitland, Hoyland, Kinghorn

Team V Australia/Fiji:

1 Dickinson
2 Brown
3 Fagerson
4 Gray
5 Toolis
6 Barclay
7 Watson
8 Strauss

9 Laidlaw
10 Russell
11 Visser
12 Dunbar
13 Taylor
14 Jones (try him on the wing in Seymour's absence)
15 Maitland

Subs - Reid, Ford, Berghan, Swinson, Wilson, Price, Horne, Scott


Team V Italy:

1 Reid
2 Brown
3 Berghan
4 Swinson
5 Toolis
6 Barclay
7 Watson
8 CDP

9 Price
10 Horne
11 Visser
12 Scott
13 Jones
14 Hoyland
15 Maitland

Subs - Dell, Mcinally, Nel, Gilchrist, Wilson, Laidlaw, Hastings, Kinghorn

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by tigertattie on Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:03 am

would be utterly bonkers to have a a game against Italy! Whichever muppet came up with that idea should be sent on missionary work in the Welsh Valleys.

If Nel is fit then I think he needs to go on Tour to get some games under his belt? Also it would do ZooZander no harm at all to let him have the summer off. He's really been through the mill recently and is deserving of the rest.

Also, with Jones coming to Glasgow after the summer, I'd suggest he wasn't involved too heavily as he'll need some form of break after playing in South Africa. With Scott and Taylor about, it's not like he's essential.
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by bsando on Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:26 am

I think Gatland has to be brave and recognise Scotland played some great attacking rugby throughput the tournament. There are going to be some close calls to make, but it would be grossly unfair to only pick 3 Scots and then have a backlist of injury covers.

PR - Nel (he may have missed it all but if he comes back in time I see him touring)
SR - J Gray, R Gray (Both going in my opinion)
BR - none
SH - none
FH - Russell (statistically best fly half in 6N, that can't be ignored)
C - Jones (defensively he was poor against England and got caught out a bit prior to that, but he is a deadly attacker with pace who will probably not start a test but will certainly be handy. Pips several players in his position in my opinion)
B3 - Hogg, Seymour or Visser or Maitland (Hogg obviously, but one other as well, still not sure who, I would say Seymour due to his consistency)

Thats 7 Scots who I think hands down deserve to tour. 3 forwards, 4 backline.
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:39 am

Mrs Radge will be absolutely inconsolable today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39323282
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by MacKnocked-on on Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:11 am

If the tour is only two or three international matches I think that's a shame and a missed opportunity, would have made sense to have a couple of matches against Super Rugby teams or some other representative sides. That way we could take a wider squad and give touring experience to some of the young SQ players coming through in the Aviva this season such as Hastings, Hutchinson and Eadie and also a few of the young Edinburgh and Glasgow prospects.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:24 am

Guys...

The Lions expectation needs to be calmed a bit. There are a few players deserving of the tour but this is going to be another case of 2 maybe three players going and that's it.

I'm not bothered tbh. It's a hiding to nothing. When grant and Hogg came back 4 years ago, it changed them for the worse.

I'd rather a full strength squad to beat Oz in their own backyard followed up by 2/3 wins in the Autumn (running NZ very very close if not beating them) which will give the team huge confidence going into next years' 6N where we should be targeting 4 wins.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:33 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Guys...

The Lions expectation needs to be calmed a bit. There are a few players deserving of the tour but this is going to be another case of 2 maybe three players going and that's it.

I tend to agree - whether it is right or not I think it would be a surprise if we had more than 3 players

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

I'd rather a full strength squad to beat Oz in their own backyard followed up by 2/3 wins in the Autumn (running NZ very very close if not beating them)

Steady now!

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
which will give the team huge confidence going into next years' 6N where we should be targeting 4 wins.

I think next 6N is going to be a real challenge - the only team to win away from home this 6N was England. England and France at home are going to be tough, and Wales and Ireland away will be a lot more difficult than at Murrayfield. IMO 3 wins would be a fantastic achievement.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by tigertattie on Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:50 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Mrs Radge will be absolutely inconsolable today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39323282

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by BigGee on Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:07 pm

Agreed it is hard to see us being over stocked with Lions again, though this time a lot of our players have put in a very good case.

Interestingly when you look at all the pundits squads that are doing the rounds at the moment, we hardly feature. They seem to take the same view as we do, that the marginal calls will all go against us.

The only thing that is likely to change that will be a continued strong run by Glasgow in the Euro cup, which may make the case of some of the Glasgow players to compelling even for Gatland to overlook!

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:16 pm

For some of the marginal calls to go in favour of better Scottish representation, Glasgow need to beat Sarries IMO.

Which is sad because we did have a very good 6N.
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:17 pm

I did like Gustcott's Lions XV - he said his team was 'picked based on form' but he had Kruis in the 2nd row!

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:16 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Guys...

The Lions expectation needs to be calmed a bit. There are a few players deserving of the tour but this is going to be another case of 2 maybe three players going and that's it.

I tend to agree - whether it is right or not I think it would be a surprise if we had more than 3 players

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

I'd rather a full strength squad to beat Oz in their own backyard followed up by 2/3 wins in the Autumn (running NZ very very close if not beating them)

Steady now!

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
which will give the team huge confidence going into next years' 6N where we should be targeting 4 wins.

I think next 6N is going to be a real challenge - the only team to win away from home this 6N was England. England and France at home are going to be tough, and Wales and Ireland away will be a lot more difficult than at Murrayfield. IMO 3 wins would be a fantastic achievement.

My four wins would be:

France - Home
Wales - Away
Italy - Away

4th I would say England at home.

If we have our absolute first choice 22, then it'll be possible. As long as England's one good game isn't against us again.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:29 pm

Huw Jones' Lions chances are over

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39341885

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by BigGee on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:34 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Huw Jones' Lions chances are over

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39341885

Well I suppose on the bright side, he will be fresh for the start of next season. He is going to miss the whole of the Super Rugby season now. He has not had much luck on the injury front whilst playing for Scotland.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:37 pm

BigGee wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Huw Jones' Lions chances are over

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39341885

Well I suppose on the bright side, he will be fresh for the start of next season. He is going to miss the whole of the Super Rugby season now. He has not had much luck on the injury front whilst playing for Scotland.

The Stormers will be glad to see the back of him!

A hamstring injury probably wouldn't have been helped by him being thrown straight into high intensity test match rugby with very little gametime building up to it - I'm still not convinced it was completely the right decision to pick him from the start given his lack of gametime.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by BigGee on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:44 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:
BigGee wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Huw Jones' Lions chances are over

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39341885

Well I suppose on the bright side, he will be fresh for the start of next season. He is going to miss the whole of the Super Rugby season now. He has not had much luck on the injury front whilst playing for Scotland.

The Stormers will be glad to see the back of him!

A hamstring injury probably wouldn't have been helped by him being thrown straight into high intensity test match rugby with very little gametime building up to it - I'm still not convinced it was completely the right decision to pick him from the start given his lack of gametime.

To be fair it looked like a pretty unfortunate injury and he actually looked like he was coming into form over the last two games. He was arguably our best player against England and was beginning to show his attacking threat. It was a bit of a risk to play him from the start, but I don't think that had anything to do with the injury.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:46 pm

BigGee wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
BigGee wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Huw Jones' Lions chances are over

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39341885

Well I suppose on the bright side, he will be fresh for the start of next season. He is going to miss the whole of the Super Rugby season now. He has not had much luck on the injury front whilst playing for Scotland.

The Stormers will be glad to see the back of him!

A hamstring injury probably wouldn't have been helped by him being thrown straight into high intensity test match rugby with very little gametime building up to it - I'm still not convinced it was completely the right decision to pick him from the start given his lack of gametime.

To be fair it looked like a pretty unfortunate injury and he actually looked like he was coming into form over the last two games. He was arguably our best player against England and was beginning to show his attacking threat. It was a bit of a risk to play him from the start, but I don't think that had anything to do with the injury.

Yeah I'm not saying that is the cause but you often find these kind of injuries happening to players lacking match practice. Although to be fair this was the last game of the championship.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by bsando on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:57 pm

shame about Jones, hope he recovers well! Still getting used to the lush, moist NH pitches. Check out his highlights reel, some of the grounds he was playing in SA are basically dirt!
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by R!skysports on Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:34 pm

Whatever the team, I just hope we manage to win a game in the series - as it has been too long since we have won a game. In fact I believe Scotland have never won a game ever

It has always been the other team losing it - due to their players playing bad, poor selection, the wrong trousers etc etc


(Yes I am get annoyed with other threads lol(

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:04 pm

Yes, it is rather tiresome. Despite hammering Wales and beating a very good Ireland side and nilling the Italians, all everyone talks about is the Twickenham anomaly.

Either we are all deluded and we have made progress or everyone just thinks about Graeme Morrison, Andy Henderson and Hugo Southwell when thinking about Scotland.

Has the garbage we have served up in the last 15 years stained Scottish rugby to such an extent that we don't beat teams because we were better, but rather we beat teams because they had an "off day".

It can't be both.
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by R!skysports on Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:03 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Yes, it is rather tiresome. Despite hammering Wales and beating a very good Ireland side and nilling the Italians, all everyone talks about is the Twickenham anomaly.

Either we are all deluded and we have made progress or everyone just thinks about Graeme Morrison, Andy Henderson and Hugo Southwell when thinking about Scotland.

Has the garbage we have served up in the last 15 years stained Scottish rugby to such an extent that we don't beat teams because we were better, but rather we beat teams because they had an "off day".

It can't be both.

There is a trio who have brought fear and trepidation to sides, said no one ever


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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by funnyExiledScot on Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:55 pm

It's been a great 6 Nations, and Vern Cotter has done us proud. Big shoes to fill for Toonie.

We now look like a proper rugby team, with an attack that has actually been subjected to coaching. A few years ago, even in the season directly before Vern Cotter took over, our attack was utterly toothless basically ensuring that any team scoring more than 15 points against us would win.

There are some things to work on. I think the back row needs a closer look once Strauss and Hardie are fit again. Wilson put in a fine shift but the Wilson/Watson/Barclay combination doesn't have enough muscle to take us forward. Wilson could easily move to 6 however with one of Strauss or Du Preez at 8, leaving the 7 jersey for Barclay, Hardie and Watson to scrap over. Alternatively you leave Barclay at 6, drop Wilson and go with either Hardie or Watson at 7. Either way I'd want a ball carrier in the 8 jersey and a bit more balance.

I really enjoyed this 6 Nations, and it's been a while since that's happened!

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by TJ on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:05 am

For me there are a couple guys who could do with a summer off.

Jonny Gray - huge workload over the season, not at his best the last couple of 6N game

Fagerson again huge workload for such a young man in such a demanding position. We can't afford to break him - it looks like he will be our go to guy for years

Along with that I see a few guys who should be dropped for good Gilcrest being the main one. I have no idea what anyone sees in him. doesn't do much around the field and gives away ridiculous numbers of penalties thru sheer stupidity. He is not an international standard player.

So for me this tour should be an opportunity for fringe players to be tested and for some guys to recover their form. Pyrgos for example should go. Horne as well.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by EWT Spoons on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:27 am

TJ wrote:For me there are a couple guys who could do with a summer off.

Jonny Gray - huge workload over the season, not at his best the last couple of 6N game

Fagerson  again huge workload for such a young man in such a demanding position.  We can't afford to break him - it looks like he will be our go to guy for years

Along with that I see a few guys who should be dropped for good Gilcrest being the main one.  I have no idea what anyone sees in him.  doesn't do much around the field and gives away ridiculous numbers of penalties thru sheer stupidity.  He is not an international standard player.

So for me this tour should be an opportunity for fringe players to be tested and for some guys to recover their form. Pyrgos for example should go.  Horne as well.

Whilst Gilchrist has been in terrible form for Edinburgh this season, I think it’s a bit harsh to say he should be dropped for good.  It wasn’t long ago he was named Scotland captain and was linked with a big move to France.  He’s also only 26 so can, and probably will, improve.

I thought he did ok when he played during the 6 nations, I would add the caveat that based on his Edinburgh form I don’t think he should have been given the opportunity to be in the Scotland team (that could apply to CDP as well), but he was and he did ok.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by TJ on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:34 am

He gave away two stupid penalties on lineouts on our line one after the other. IMO his penalty count is simply too high and its the same offences time and time again and he does it every time he plays for Edinburgh. ONe game for Edinburgh he came on as sub and immediately gave away a series of pens that had the effect of costing Edinburgh the game

I wouldn't mind so much if he brought anything special to the team to counter this but he does not IMO

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by MacKnocked-on on Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:59 am

Toolis looks a far more dynamic player than Gilchrist, he deserves his chance given his consistent form for Edinburgh.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:02 am

I'm with EWT Spoons, I don't think we can rule out Gilchrist going forward. Yes, his club form should have put him well behind Swinson, Toolis and MacKenzie, but when he has played for Scotland he has typically performed better than in Edinburgh colours (in recent times). He's only 26, plenty time for him to demonstrate a return to form.

His career has shades of Ali Hogg to it. Started very brightly, had a mid-career dip whilst stagnating at Edinburgh, only to have an Indian summer (albeit not internationally). Gilchrist leaving Edinburgh would work in his favour I think. He needs a shake up.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:05 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm with EWT Spoons, I don't think we can rule out Gilchrist going forward. Yes, his club form should have put him well behind Swinson, Toolis and MacKenzie, but when he has played for Scotland he has typically performed better than in Edinburgh colours (in recent times). He's only 26, plenty time for him to demonstrate a return to form.

His career has shades of Ali Hogg to it. Started very brightly, had a mid-career dip whilst stagnating at Edinburgh, only to have an Indian summer (albeit not internationally). Gilchrist leaving Edinburgh would work in his favour I think. He needs a shake up.

For a change I disagree with FES. Cockers at Edinburgh will shake Gilchrist up enough I think. If Gilco stays and goes on to form a meaningful and effective partnership with Toolis, there is no better place for him to set his stall out at Edinburgh with Cockers developing him. Especially if he still has Scotland aspirations.

Case and point Ali Hogg. Yes his career recovered but he was never selected again.
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:15 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm with EWT Spoons, I don't think we can rule out Gilchrist going forward. Yes, his club form should have put him well behind Swinson, Toolis and MacKenzie, but when he has played for Scotland he has typically performed better than in Edinburgh colours (in recent times). He's only 26, plenty time for him to demonstrate a return to form.

His career has shades of Ali Hogg to it. Started very brightly, had a mid-career dip whilst stagnating at Edinburgh, only to have an Indian summer (albeit not internationally). Gilchrist leaving Edinburgh would work in his favour I think. He needs a shake up.

For a change I disagree with FES. Cockers at Edinburgh will shake Gilchrist up enough I think. If Gilco stays and goes on to form a meaningful and effective partnership with Toolis, there is no better place for him to set his stall out at Edinburgh with Cockers developing him. Especially if he still has Scotland aspirations.

Case and point Ali Hogg. Yes his career recovered but he was never selected again.

It's a fair point, and as an Edinburgh fan I'm willing to wait and see whether Cockerill will have the impact we all hope he will, but both Solomons and Hodge have failed to extract the maximum from Mr Gilchrist, albeit with injuries playing a major role, so forgive me for being pessimistic.

He has real potential to be something, I just hope he can deliver on the promise. Until he does, I do hope Toonie takes a closer look at Ben Toolis, who is remarkably consistent.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by EWT Spoons on Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:56 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm with EWT Spoons, I don't think we can rule out Gilchrist going forward. Yes, his club form should have put him well behind Swinson, Toolis and MacKenzie, but when he has played for Scotland he has typically performed better than in Edinburgh colours (in recent times). He's only 26, plenty time for him to demonstrate a return to form.

His career has shades of Ali Hogg to it. Started very brightly, had a mid-career dip whilst stagnating at Edinburgh, only to have an Indian summer (albeit not internationally). Gilchrist leaving Edinburgh would work in his favour I think. He needs a shake up.

For a change I disagree with FES. Cockers at Edinburgh will shake Gilchrist up enough I think. If Gilco stays and goes on to form a meaningful and effective partnership with Toolis, there is no better place for him to set his stall out at Edinburgh with Cockers developing him. Especially if he still has Scotland aspirations.

Case and point Ali Hogg. Yes his career recovered but he was never selected again.

It's a fair point, and as an Edinburgh fan I'm willing to wait and see whether Cockerill will have the impact we all hope he will, but both Solomons and Hodge have failed to extract the maximum from Mr Gilchrist, albeit with injuries playing a major role, so forgive me for being pessimistic.

He has real potential to be something, I just hope he can deliver on the promise. Until he does, I do hope Toonie takes a closer look at Ben Toolis, who is remarkably consistent.

Toonie apparently has been in contact with Toolis telling him where he needs to improve his game and giving him examples etc, so hopefully it'll stand him in good stead for his international career.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:29 am

I do hope that's true. Toolis would be really handy cover for Richie Gray as he adds that lineout capability.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by EWT Spoons on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:57 am

For the summer tour it would be nice if we could bring a few youngsters over either for the experience and getting them used to being around the Scotland squad, or actually to get some game time.

Bradbury (who is apparently injured, not that you would know from any Edinburgh comms) would be worth bringing as would Kinghorn possibly (especially if Hogg is away with the lions) as well as Sutherland if he ever gets over his injury, given prior to getting injured he was Dicko's deputy.

Cummings, Hughes and Hastings as well should be brought over.

I wouldn't suggest they all get a game, but it would be good for their development if they got to experience what it's like to be part of the squad

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by R!skysports on Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:03 pm

Bad news - Scotland has been relegated from the 6 nations as too poor - they did not win any games and were below Italy in the table - you could not make up some of the posts on this site



For the avoidance of doubt Scotland can of course consider themselves a marginally better side than Wales at the moment.

Not so sure. Wales did better in the common fixtures - France away and Ireland home, and the England result was more than you'd expect from a home/away swing.



Scotland didn't come close against England however, and are still trying to claim some moral victory. Wales' performances have proper nose-dived since Howley come in but the results have been moderate I suppose (Aus being the worst by far). The previous year Wales were better and a lot of those players haven't suddenly become sh!te.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:05 pm

From an Edinburgh perspective we have a few youngsters who could really benefit: Bradbury, Ritchie, Hoyland and Kinghorn could all certainly benefit. Hopefully Sutherland will be fit as well. Dell has done a decent job in his absence and I think Sutherland needs to perform well to re-establish himself above Dell in the pecking order.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by EWT Spoons on Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:11 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:From an Edinburgh perspective we have a few youngsters who could really benefit: Bradbury, Ritchie, Hoyland and Kinghorn could all certainly benefit. Hopefully Sutherland will be fit as well. Dell has done a decent job in his absence and I think Sutherland needs to perform well to re-establish himself above Dell in the pecking order.

Forgot about Ritchie, his form does seem to have improved of late and could be in with a shout of going along.

Hoyland's form is a bit up and down at the moment (mostly down) but he does have a bit about him, so hopefully it's a temporary blip and he gets back on track.

Prior to injury Sutherland looked like he could be a very good player and a case could have been made that he should be starting ahead of Dickinson for Edinburgh, I really hope this injury doesn't set him back too much.

I know this tour is going to come far too soon for him, but Darcy Graham looks like a real prospect (despite being tiny).  Fingers crossed he can bulk up a bit and with any luck he's still growing (long shot but he is only 19, he could get a bit taller) without it impacting his speed, which is clearly his biggest asset.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by TJ on Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:13 pm

Scotland beat Wales with something to spare. Scotland are 5th in the rankings, Wales 8th.

Right now Scotland are clearly the better team and more importantly Scotland are improving, Wales are regressing

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