Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

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Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 20 Mar 2017, 10:02 am

First topic message reminder :

Results

Scotland 27 - Ireland 22 Yahoo
France 22 - Scotland 16  Crying or Very sad
Scotland 29 - Wales 13  Yahoo
England 61 - Scotland 21  Shocked
Scotland 29 - Italy 0  Yahoo

Some stats:

- First time with 3 wins since 2006
- First opening round win and win over Wales in over a decade
- 14 tries scored - our best ever
- Our highest points tally (in 2014 we scored 45 points  Shocked )
- Up to 5th in the World Rankings


Verdict

Bar Twickenham this was a fantastic 6N where we won our games playing great rugby.  It was a huge monkey off our back to beat Wales and the Ireland game was a huge result for us.  The Twickenham game was a complete embarrassment but I'd like to think that was a freak result for this team as opposed to a sign that our wins over Wales and Ireland were 'lucky'.  It should keep the players grounded going forward, which is no bad thing.

All in all I'll give our 6N a 8/10

Lions hopefuls?

Pr - can't see any travelling
H Fraser Brown stands an outside chance, and could be injury cover
L - Jonny or Richie Gray stand a chance in the most competitive position
BR - I don't see any of our backrows going
SH - Laidlaw is down the list in terms of ability at 9 but may be picked as a good tourist/leader for the squad
FH - Finn Russell certainly divides opinion but personally I don't think he will travel
C - Dunbar and Jones are outside bets in what isn't actually a great position of depth for the Lions, but again may find themselves as injury cover
FR - Hogg is a near certainty and I can see another winger getting picked, probably Seymour

My prediction:

J Gray, Hogg, Seymour in the squad, Brown, Laidlaw and Jones as first choice injury cover.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 2:12 pm

To counter your argument though Griff, Shanklin suggested that Scotland are better than the sum of their parts, I can agree with that, however in the same sentance he is instantly condemning the Lions leadership and the tactics that will inevitably employed in the matches in NZ. I think we should all remind ourselves every day that Hogg will not start a test match, and the sooner we start accepting that, the easier it will be!

These guys said it best earlier on ...

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:A win against Australia would certainly make 2 in 41 look a bit questionable.

But then again according to Shanklin our players aren't very good and we only do well because we play well as a team.

That is pretty damning criticism of the Welsh coaches from Shanklin. He is basically saying that Cotter has cleaned the floor with Gatland and Howley, and that Gatland and Howley should not be coaching the Lions. Talk about turning on your former masters.....

onto the Wales Online article vomit

It's the rancid hypocrisy of it all. I actually had one of my comments read out on the Blood and Mud podcast (well worth a listen BTW) and one of the pundits (he's Welsh I might add) asked "what have Scotland won this year?" the obvious answer would be more test matches than Wales, but it shows what we are up against that this fact is just simply ignored or inconvenient.

The winning Away one grinds my gears too because Wales have won nothing away this year either. Even the mighty Ireland only won one away match and it was the same one that Wales won against Italy!

It just seems that Scotland and it's players have been measured against one yard stick and all the other teams have been measured against a different one.

Griff I know you seem to think I'm picking on Wales, I'm not. The simple truth is I think the Welsh players are all very good. My problem is that very few of them have shown it this year, but have still gotten the call over other players who are performing better.

Final thought, I wouldn't be ranting about it, if I didn't care about it.
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by R!skysports on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 2:15 pm


It is a wonder why certain press get a lot of negative reaction

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Scottrf on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 2:16 pm


Liked this reply:

"Gatland ''We have to perform away from home, that’s going to be paramount.”

So it's great that there are so many many Welsh going as their last 8 away games record is :
LLLLLWLL .....and the win was against Italy.

In the last 2 European Cups the Welsh teams have played 9 away matches and lost the lot.

Gatland is a hypocrite."

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 2:22 pm

Scottrf wrote:

Liked this reply:

"Gatland ''We have to perform away from home, that’s going to be paramount.”

So it's great that there are so many many Welsh going as their last 8 away games record is :
LLLLLWLL .....and the win was against Italy.

In the last 2 European Cups the Welsh teams have played 9 away matches and lost the lot.

Gatland is a hypocrite."

laughing have some of that!
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by SecretFly on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 2:37 pm

Nope the best quote from Gats (I only paraphrase of course) is:

"I didn't even not know what the number of Nations I didn't care about that maybe I didn't pick from was! - So to say I even knew I only picked two from one of those Nations that I know nothing about because I don't have a Scottish coach here to tell me about them....it's like.... it's like not my fault! - Is it?  
I didn't pick 12 Welsh players to help me in my WC planning and preparation - honest!  I didn't do it this time and I didn't do it last time.  I don't even know where the Welsh players come from.  Howley had to tell me they were Welsh after I picked them."

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Griff on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 2:53 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:To counter your argument though Griff, Shanklin suggested that Scotland are better than the sum of their parts, I can agree with that, however in the same sentance he is instantly condemning the Lions leadership and the tactics that will inevitably employed in the matches in NZ. I think we should all remind ourselves every day that Hogg will not start a test match, and the sooner we start accepting that, the easier it will be!

These guys said it best earlier on ...

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:A win against Australia would certainly make 2 in 41 look a bit questionable.

But then again according to Shanklin our players aren't very good and we only do well because we play well as a team.

That is pretty damning criticism of the Welsh coaches from Shanklin. He is basically saying that Cotter has cleaned the floor with Gatland and Howley, and that Gatland and Howley should not be coaching the Lions. Talk about turning on your former masters.....

onto the Wales Online article vomit

It's the rancid hypocrisy of it all. I actually had one of my comments read out on the Blood and Mud podcast (well worth a listen BTW) and one of the pundits (he's Welsh I might add) asked "what have Scotland won this year?" the obvious answer would be more test matches than Wales, but it shows what we are up against that this fact is just simply ignored or inconvenient.

The winning Away one grinds my gears too because Wales have won nothing away this year either. Even the mighty Ireland only won one away match and it was the same one that Wales won against Italy!

It just seems that Scotland and it's players have been measured against one yard stick and all the other teams have been measured against a different one.

Griff I know you seem to think I'm picking on Wales, I'm not. The simple truth is I think the Welsh players are all very good. My problem is that very few of them have shown it this year, but have still gotten the call over other players who are performing better.

Final thought, I wouldn't be ranting about it, if I didn't care about it.


I haven't read the article. I don't and won't read that rag. It's like the Daily Sport but without the t*ts and ar*e, i.e. pointless.

I'm also suprised you're hanging onto Shanklin's words. Have you actually watched the Flats and Shanks podcast? Trying to reinvent themselves as some sort of rugby comedy duo, like a poor man's Morecombe and Wise. It's terrible. Not sure I'd take any notice of an ex rugby player turned wannabe comedian. He's just out for laughs.

I know you're a good poster, Radge. An a passionate one at that. I think I know deep down that you're not picking on Wales, even if you did say that is exactly what you were doing yesterday in the heat of the moment. But I think you're being harsh on some of the Welsh players being picked. Your posts seem to focus on volume: too many Welsh and not enough Scots, I.e. that some of those Welsh places should instead have been taken by Scots. Ok, you're more than entitled to that. And I'd agree that 2 scots is ridiculous. But who do you replace with who?:

Owens had a very good year, his best yet. There on merit over a Scottish rival for me.
AWJ - I rate him, you perhaps do not. Who's right out of the two of us? Impossible to determine! I'd have taken J Gray for sure. Over AWJ though? Not sure. Possibly over Henderson for me.
Warburton had a great 6N. There on merit. And captain so has to be there, right?
Tipuric - I'm a former critic of him but even I have to say this has been hands down his best season. Before the 6N he'd gone since the previous summer without missing one tackle, something like 6 months. Even in the 6N he was 2nd only to Launchberry for most tackles made and least missed (I think 85 made, 4 missed). He was top lineout taker too, if memory serves! His yards made was up there too, better than a lot of the top backs. Hamish Watson was also excellent this year. But I don't see it as a snub for a worse player give the season Tipuric has had.
Faletau and Moriarty are lucky IMO. Which 6/8 from Scotland would you replace them with? For me the unlucky ones there are perhaps English rather than Scots.
Webb is there on merit.
Biggar is lucky - Russell would be my pick. But Farrell (taken as a 10) and Sexton are ahead of them anyway. Not the point I know.
JD2 - had a much better 6N than anyone gives him credit for, that wayward kick aside. Huw Jones was my pick, but after him we're a bit short at 13 so I don't think his inclusion is too much of a stretch.
Liam Williams is in on merit for me.
North - had some good games and some not so good. Would you have taken Visser instead? Maitland. For me North's form and showing against Ireland probably got him on the plane (if we're looking at individual games which some people seem to be doing).
Halfpenny is very lucky. I would have left him home. Which Scottish FB. Would you have taken instead?

Just to add, someone posted a link to a Jim Telfer interview earlier. Even he said he agree with '40 or 39 of the picks'. That means he only had a gripe with 1 or 2!

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 3:28 pm

My comments below thumbsup

Griff wrote:I haven't read the article. I don't and won't read that rag. It's like the Daily Sport but without the t*ts and ar*e, i.e. pointless.

I'm also suprised you're hanging onto Shanklin's words. Have you actually watched the Flats and Shanks podcast? Trying to reinvent themselves as some sort of rugby comedy duo, like a poor man's Morecombe and Wise. It's terrible. Not sure I'd take any notice of an ex rugby player turned wannabe comedian. He's just out for laughs.

I know you're a good poster, Radge. An a passionate one at that. I think I know deep down that you're not picking on Wales, even if you did say that is exactly what you were doing yesterday in the heat of the moment. But I think you're being harsh on some of the Welsh players being picked. Your posts seem to focus on volume: too many Welsh and not enough Scots, I.e. that some of those Welsh places should instead have been taken by Scots. Ok, you're more than entitled to that. And I'd agree that 2 scots is ridiculous. But who do you replace with who?:

Owens had a very good year, his best yet. There on merit over a Scottish rival for me.
No argument, a test starter.

AWJ - I rate him, you perhaps do not. Who's right out of the two of us? Impossible to determine! I'd have taken J Gray for sure. Over AWJ though? Not sure. Possibly over Henderson for me.
AWJ is an amazing player, a warrior, and despite having a poor 6N by his insanely high standards I would have given him the benefit of the doubt. But, currently injured. Look at that tour schedule. Even Graham Henry described it as borderline suicidal. We shouldn't be taking injured players when we have such a deep pool of players to pick from, esepcially at lock. Same goes for George Kruis but at least he has a chance to prove match fitness in the run up to the tour. That brings us onto...

Warburton had a great 6N. There on merit. And captain so has to be there, right?
I have always been a fan of Warburton, even when the bulk of the Welsh fans were calling on Tipuric. I always loved a story I heard about him when he was captain of Wales. Wales were playing Italy (I think) and playing pretty badly. Aparently Gatland didn't often come down to scold the players after a bad performance, but in this instance he was on his way down. Warburton threw him out of the dressing room, went round each player looked them in the eyes and said "we've got this right?". I am a massive massive fan of Warburton and IMO another test starter. However the circle I can't square away is if he was stripped of the captaincy at Wales due to pressure, how will he manage the pressure of a Lions test. Furthermore, he's another player who is in a fight to be fit.

Tipuric - I'm a former critic of him but even I have to say this has been hands down his best season. Before the 6N he'd gone since the previous summer without missing one tackle, something like 6 months. Even in the 6N he was 2nd only to Launchberry for most tackles made and least missed (I think 85 made, 4 missed). He was top lineout taker too, if memory serves! His yards made was up there too, better than a lot of the top backs. Hamish Watson was also excellent this year. But I don't see it as a snub for a worse player give the season Tipuric has had.
This is where we differ, I think Tipuric does less of what you need a flanker to do and more of what a centre should be doing. A good comparrison is Richie Gray before his time at Tolouse, Tipuric when I have seen him does a lot less of the dirty work you see the likes of AWJ or Warburton doing. In the land of fetcher opensides I think Watson would have been a better fit.


Faletau and Moriarty are lucky IMO. Which 6/8 from Scotland would you replace them with? For me the unlucky ones there are perhaps English rather than Scots.
again here we differ, I feel they deserve to be there more than Tipuric. Faletau is probably the best ball playing number 8 in the world and Moriarty is extremely physical and IMO will not be a likely test starter, but we need those level of aggression against the super rugby teams.

Webb is there on merit.
No argument, a possible test starter, especially if Murray can't prove fitness (again another injured player selected for this suicidal tour).

Biggar is lucky - Russell would be my pick. But Farrell (taken as a 10) and Sexton are ahead of them anyway. Not the point I know.
Whoever is going out there as the 3rd flyhalf will be a crash test dummy to protect Sexton, Biggar is probably more defensively stout and probably more durable, but he offers little contrast to who has been selected.

JD2 - had a much better 6N than anyone gives him credit for, that wayward kick aside. Huw Jones was my pick, but after him we're a bit short at 13 so I don't think his inclusion is too much of a stretch.
13 is a posession of huge strength up north, but with Bennett and Jones in the hospital I have no real problem with Davies, but IMO Ringrose has done more and has already faced the all blacks and won.

Liam Williams is in on merit for me.
No argument, a test starter on the wing.


North - had some good games and some not so good. Would you have taken Visser instead?
Absolutely not, no argument, a test starter on the wing IMO however he had to ride his luck, it was not a Vintage year for North.

Maitland. For me North's form and showing against Ireland probably got him on the plane (if we're looking at individual games which some people seem to be doing).
Between Seymour and Maitland the right Scot went.

Halfpenny is very lucky. I would have left him home. Which Scottish FB. Would you have taken?
Lucky beyond belief. With Hogg and also Williams, Daly and Payne able to cover 15 very well I see no need to take him at all. Which is a shame, but whatever has happened to him at Toulon has ruined his playing ability. 6, 6 dropped high balls by Halfpenny in this 6N, that would have been unheard of 3 years ago.

Just to add, someone posted a link to a Jim Telfer interview earlier. Even he said he agree with '40 or 39 of the picks'. That means he only had a gripe with 1 or 2!
What you said about Shanklin and Wales online, read for telfer.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 3:30 pm

Griff, I don't disagree with much of that.

Owen - I'd pick him over Brown/Ford.
AWJ - a very very close call, particularly with his injury. You could switch AWJ/Henderson for Launchbury/J Gray and the Lions would be no weaker for it. I see this as a true 50/50 call.
Moriarty - I think a fit Josh Strauss should have gone ahead of him, but otherwise it's Robshaw/Haskell who are the more hard done by. You can make a case for Barclay, but I would put the English duo ahead of him.
Tipuric - similar to AWJ this is a really close call against Hamish Watson who is performing right at the top of his game. Purely on form it is perhaps SOB who is the lucky one. I'd put this down as another 50/50.
Webb - no quibbles.
Biggar - I would have had both Ford and Russell ahead of Biggar, but would have ended up taking Ford if I'm totally honest (and not just to avoid Weir playing for Scotland in the summer).
JD2 - I would have taken Jones ahead of him, and you can make a case for Alex Dunbar and Duncan Taylor, but it's probably Ringrose who feels he could have sneaked in. My bigger gripe at centre is Ben Teo.
North - I'd have picked him.
Halfpenny - I wouldn't have picked him. I'd rather have a squad of 40 to be honest. He doesn't deserve to be there, and the Lions have ample cover at 15. Maitland could have gone, but he'd also be overkill.

So, Telfer is probably right to say it comes down to one or two calls. If there's a Welsh player over Scottish player debate to be had, it probably comes down to two 50/50s - J Gray instead of AWJ and Watson instead of Tipuric. Had Strauss and Jones been fully fit I'd have said they should have gone ahead of Moriarty and JD2. When all is said and done, no screaming injustices.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Griff on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 3:54 pm

So the 'volume' doesn't really change much. Maybe 1 or 2 less Welsh and 1 or 2 more Scots, or perhaps even more English or Irish instead. But I think there still would have been massive outcry at 10 Welshmen, rather than the current 12, even though you've both essentially just ok'd it!

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 3:59 pm

Griff wrote:So the 'volume' doesn't really change much. Maybe 1 or 2 less Welsh and 1 or 2 more Scots, or perhaps even more English or Irish instead. But I think there still would have been massive outcry at 10 Welshmen, rather than the current 12, even though you've both essentially just ok'd it!

It's not the number of Welshmen, it's the token 2 scots that's the problem!
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 3:59 pm

I think most Scots on here have said that 4 would have been a reasonable number - there certainly wouldn't have been anywhere near the same backlash.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 4:03 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:I think most Scots on here have said that 4 would have been a reasonable number - there certainly wouldn't have been anywhere near the same backlash.

I thought 4-5 was about right. 2 as has been trawled over for the last 36 hours is just abysmal. Nevermind it is what it is, and now we just have to see who survives this wretched tour schedule.
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Griff on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 4:08 pm

While not wishing injuries on anyone, they are inevitable and I genuinely do hope some of the balance can be redressed with Scottish call ups. Never as good to be an after thought though, but hopefully some will get a chance to prove the selectors wrong.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by munkian on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 4:38 pm

Griff wrote:While not wishing injuries on anyone, they are inevitable and I genuinely do hope some of the balance can be redressed with Scottish call ups. Never as good to be an after thought though, but hopefully some will get a chance to prove the selectors wrong.

How will it prove them wrong if their original selections get injured ?

And I think the players will disagree with you about being 'afterthoughts'

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Griff on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 4:42 pm

munkian wrote:
Griff wrote:While not wishing injuries on anyone, they are inevitable and I genuinely do hope some of the balance can be redressed with Scottish call ups. Never as good to be an after thought though, but hopefully some will get a chance to prove the selectors wrong.

How will it prove them wrong if their original selections get injured ?

Playing and playing well is the proving wrong bit that I'm hoping they can do if given a chance.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 4:58 pm

Griff wrote:
munkian wrote:
Griff wrote:While not wishing injuries on anyone, they are inevitable and I genuinely do hope some of the balance can be redressed with Scottish call ups. Never as good to be an after thought though, but hopefully some will get a chance to prove the selectors wrong.

How will it prove them wrong if their original selections get injured ?

Playing and playing well is the proving wrong bit that I'm hoping they can do if given a chance.

There have been some pretty useful "afterthoughts" over the years. Ryan Jones springs to mind.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by tigertattie on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 5:06 pm

I think you need to put things into perspective here, the reason that many Scots are being vocal about the poor numbers of Scots going on tour is because of the 50/50s that have gone against them

What do I mean here?

Many expected jonny Gray to go on tour. His stats are exceptional. He's his clubs captain, he's an all round grafter.

Jonny hasn't been picked but an injured AWJ and a returning from injury Kruis have been selected. Neither of the selected players offer anything that Jonny can't offer! Why hasn't jonny been picked to tour? The only answer we can see is that Kruis was picked as he's fashionable and AWJ has been picked as he's Gatland's buddy.

Correct or not, this perception is what has us angry. What on earth does Jonny Gray have to do to merit a lions call up? He outplayed AWJ when they met face to face. Jonny (as captain also) has gone further in Europe than AWJ. Jonny is also not injured!

If they turned round and said Jonny hasn't been picked because Launchbury has you could say fair enough, launchbury is on form at the moment. He hasn't though. He's been overlooked to allow an aging AWJ to go on a jolly of NZ.

The exact same argument can be said for Hamish Watson over Warburton, Tipuric and Moriarty.

I'm not for quotas but the Lions needs to be representative. Four years ago Scotland had three tourists and we were utterly rank back then. We've climbed five places in the world rankings since then. Narrowly lost to Oz in the WC 1/4, Glasgow have won the pro 12. Glasgow and Edinburgh have progressed into 1/4 finals of euro competitions. Scotland have had a good AI and a great 6Ns, beating Wales and Ireland along the way, yet this year we have two tourists!

It just doesn't make sense and no logical argument has been put forward to explain why. Therefore only cronyism can explain the baffling selections that have been made!
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by MacKnocked-on on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 5:48 pm

Many of the explanations for Scotland's poor representation seem to reference the Calcutta Cup score but that match wasn't really a true reflection of Scotland due to the early yellow and the many injuries afterwards that led to so many playing out of position, England were deserving winners but the margin of victory would not have been anything like as wide if it hadn't been for the circumstances that developed during the game. So Scottish players have been penalised for a freak scoreline, a scoreline that suits Gatland very nicely in his justification of his selections.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Griff on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 5:54 pm

Tigertattie, you say no logical argument has been put forward but your own argument is just based on your own opinion about your favourite/countrymen players. It's subjective. As is everyone's, including Gats. I agree that Gray should have gone, but in place of Henderson for me. So the AWJ vs Gray thing is not necessarily an either/or thing. I'd have them both.

Moriarty is a 6 or 8. I thought Watson was a 7? Moriarty for me is lucky, but the unlucky players are more likely English or Irish in this instance. Saying that he did have a very good 6N at 8. Who was Scotland's 8 and was he way better at 8 than Moriaty? If so then there's possibly a case to answer, but not answered with Watson.

Warburton was excellent. Tipuric has had the season of his life. So has Watson. But better than them? Both? Debatable. And to take Watson over both would be to leave the captain at home which would have been odd Wink

Part of me agrees that quotas would solve some issues, but I'm wholly against it in SA rugby and can't agree with it 100% here. We have to allow a coach or team of selectors the right to pick who they want, surely? If McGeechan was in charge and took Laidlaw as a 9 over Webb, for example, then we'd be arguing that McGeeechan can choose who he wants. Wouldn't we?

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 6:14 pm

Griff wrote:Tigertattie, you say no logical argument has been put forward but your own argument is just based on your own opinion about your favourite/countrymen players. It's subjective. As is everyone's, including Gats. I agree that Gray should have gone, but in place of Henderson for me. So the AWJ vs Gray thing is not necessarily an either/or thing. I'd have them both.

Moriarty is a 6 or 8. I thought Watson was a 7? Moriarty for me is lucky, but the unlucky players are more likely English or Irish in this instance. Saying that he did have a very good 6N at 8. Who was Scotland's 8 and was he way better at 8 than Moriaty? If so then there's possibly a case to answer, but not answered with Watson.

Warburton was excellent. Tipuric has had the season of his life. So has Watson. But better than them? Both? Debatable. And to take Watson over both would be to leave the captain at home which would have been odd Wink

Part of me agrees that quotas would solve some issues, but I'm wholly against it in SA rugby and can't agree with it 100% here. We have to allow a coach or team of selectors the right to pick who they want, surely? If McGeechan was in charge and took Laidlaw as a 9 over Webb, for example, then we'd be arguing that McGeeechan can choose who he wants. Wouldn't we?

Quotas is not the way forward. It should be the best men for the job, always with no exception.

The problem is the best men for the job becomes unclear when trying to build a scratch team. If the best men are unclear and the decision is a 50-50 and the call is between a player who's country has more representation, then a decision should be made to make the tour and team more inclusive. Only however if the decision is so close.

This would make for a better tour that everyone from all countries can throw themselves behind.
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Griff on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 6:21 pm

I agree Radge, but it's only us saying the calls are 50/50. Who knows how the selectors saw them. And the opposite might be true of certainties from 606 posters that the selectors saw differently. As an example Gats seems to be a suggesting in a quote earlier that Ringrose and J Joseph was a 50/50, but most on here had JJ first on the plane. But I guess we'll never know the real ins and outs of the selectors' decisions, unless someone publishes an autobiography or something.

Gats autobiography for Christmas anyone?!

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by True Raven on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 7:15 pm

tigertattie wrote:I think you need to put things into perspective here, the reason that many Scots are being vocal about the poor numbers of Scots going on tour is because of the 50/50s that have gone against them

What do I mean here?

Many expected jonny Gray to go on tour. His stats are exceptional. He's his clubs captain, he's an all round grafter.

Jonny hasn't been picked but an injured AWJ and a returning from injury Kruis have been selected. Neither of the selected players offer anything that Jonny can't offer! Why hasn't jonny been picked to tour? The only answer we can see is that Kruis was picked as he's fashionable and AWJ has been picked as he's Gatland's buddy.

Correct or not, this perception is what has us angry. What on earth does Jonny Gray have to do to merit a lions call up? He outplayed AWJ when they met face to face. Jonny (as captain also) has gone further in Europe than AWJ. Jonny is also not injured!

If they turned round and said Jonny hasn't been picked because Launchbury has you could say fair enough, launchbury is on form at the moment. He hasn't though. He's been overlooked to allow an aging AWJ to go on a jolly of NZ.

The exact same argument can be said for Hamish Watson over Warburton, Tipuric and Moriarty.

I'm not for quotas but the Lions needs to be representative. Four years ago Scotland had three tourists and we were utterly rank back then. We've climbed five places in the world rankings since then. Narrowly lost to Oz in the WC 1/4, Glasgow have won the pro 12. Glasgow and Edinburgh have progressed into 1/4 finals of euro competitions. Scotland have had a good AI and a great 6Ns, beating Wales and Ireland along the way, yet this year we have two tourists!

It just doesn't make sense and no logical argument has been put forward to explain why. Therefore only cronyism can explain the baffling selections that have been made!

AWJ has the experience of leading the lions and also being on several tours which is something gray, lawes, itoje, launchbury and Henderson don't have. Experience counts for something.

Those who don't rate Tipuric, need to actually watch him play. Griff he had gone 11 months without missing a tackle and i remember a Scottish poster was lauding J gray for his tackling stats but still no where near as good as tips....but don't let facts put you off

Finally, I hate the argument that Glasgow went further in Europe so j gray so better than AWJ blah blah blah. Hamish Watson plays for a team in the bottom half of the league yet no one uses the same criteria on him.

Personal i would have picked Russell (but he blows hot and cold) and Dunbar too

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 9:59 pm

Anyone seen this for a set of staggering stats?

https://twitter.com/vern_cotter/status/855155432230453248
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Gwlad on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 10:26 pm

TJ wrote:Scotland beat Wales with something to spare.  Scotland are 5th in the rankings, Wales 8th.

Right now Scotland are clearly the better team and more importantly Scotland are improving, Wales are regressing

Scotland were improving under Cotter.

You'd think they'd won the RWC the way you lot are banging on. It is indicative of the lack of Lions experience Scotland have, that they seem to think inclusion is down to things like 6 Nations performance and if it was, then coming 4th is hardly something to shout about. So what you beat Wales did the world stop turning? Apparently so. Try winning the 6 Nations even once, or even coming close, before claiming what you think are entitled Lions rights!!

Scotland appears deluded at this point about it's position, but then didn't the SRU state a few years back in a strategic plan that it aimed to win the 2015 RWC Shocked

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Chainsaw Laney on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 11:38 pm

Dunno if any of you follow the scottishrugbyblog? Had this epic quote from Gatland (via the Scotsman from an interview in March) in their Lions selection debrief:

“I’m a great believer in the idea that we should want Scotland doing well, because we should want them to be represented in the Lions,” said Gatland in early March. “Sometimes, the team who win the Six Nations can have 17 or 18 in the squad of 38 or 40. The team finishing lowest, you still want six or eight coming in, because then we all feel part of it.”

You can't say he didn't warn us! steam

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Gwlad on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 11:57 pm

Gatland cares about one thing, winning the tour.

And when he does he'll still have done it wrong. Just like in 2013. Surprised he dint get the blame for ROG and Vickery losing it in 09 or Sir Clive nearly wrecking it in 2005.

And when he doesn't…...it will be because…..drum roll…drumroll ...wait for it….. there weren't enough Scotch!!!!! Laugh

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by aucklandlaurie on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 3:18 am

Gwlad wrote:Gatland cares about one thing, winning the tour.

And when he does he'll still have done it wrong. Just like in 2013. Surprised he dint get the blame for ROG and Vickery losing it in 09 or Sir Clive nearly wrecking it in 2005.

And when he doesn't…...it will be because…..drum roll…drumroll ...wait for it….. there weren't enough Scotch!!!!! Laugh

 Or there was too much Scotch.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:21 am

Gwlad wrote:
TJ wrote:Scotland beat Wales with something to spare.  Scotland are 5th in the rankings, Wales 8th.

Right now Scotland are clearly the better team and more importantly Scotland are improving, Wales are regressing

Scotland were improving under Cotter.

You'd think they'd won the RWC the way you lot are banging on. It is indicative of the lack of Lions experience Scotland have, that they seem to think inclusion is down to things like 6 Nations performance and if it was, then coming 4th is hardly something to shout about. So what you beat Wales did the world stop turning? Apparently so. Try winning the 6 Nations even once, or even coming close, before claiming what you think are entitled Lions rights!!

Scotland appears deluded at this point about it's position, but then didn't the SRU state a few years back in a strategic plan that it aimed to win the 2015 RWC Shocked

You do know we won more test matches this season than Wales?
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by munkian on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:40 am

They should make you a special trophy Hug
Wink
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by beshocked on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:41 am

tigertattie wrote:I think you need to put things into perspective here, the reason that many Scots are being vocal about the poor numbers of Scots going on tour is because of the 50/50s that have gone against them

What do I mean here?

Many expected jonny Gray to go on tour. His stats are exceptional. He's his clubs captain, he's an all round grafter.

Jonny hasn't been picked but an injured AWJ and a returning from injury Kruis have been selected. Neither of the selected players offer anything that Jonny can't offer! Why hasn't jonny been picked to tour? The only answer we can see is that Kruis was picked as he's fashionable and AWJ has been picked as he's Gatland's buddy.

Correct or not, this perception is what has us angry. What on earth does Jonny Gray have to do to merit a lions call up? He outplayed AWJ when they met face to face. Jonny (as captain also) has gone further in Europe than AWJ. Jonny is also not injured!

If they turned round and said Jonny hasn't been picked because Launchbury has you could say fair enough, launchbury is on form at the moment. He hasn't though. He's been overlooked to allow an aging AWJ to go on a jolly of NZ.

The exact same argument can be said for Hamish Watson over Warburton, Tipuric and Moriarty.

I'm not for quotas but the Lions needs to be representative. Four years ago Scotland had three tourists and we were utterly rank back then. We've climbed five places in the world rankings since then. Narrowly lost to Oz in the WC 1/4, Glasgow have won the pro 12. Glasgow and Edinburgh have progressed into 1/4 finals of euro competitions. Scotland have had a good AI and a great 6Ns, beating Wales and Ireland along the way, yet this year we have two tourists!

It just doesn't make sense and no logical argument has been put forward to explain why. Therefore only cronyism can explain the baffling selections that have been made!

tigertattie

You say why has Kruis been picked ahead of J.Gray. Well there are a few potential reasons.

1) Jones sees him as the best scrummaging lock in England
2) He's arguably the best lineout operator in the NH, superior to J.Gray too
3) Two of his club mates at hooker and lock will be touring (combos can be important)
4) Borthwick and Farrell Sr bias (more familiar with Kruis)

J.Gray suffers because there is no Scottish voice to stand up for him.

If J.Gray had toured instead I could understand why though.


Gatland was always going to pick Alun Wyn Jones. He's one of Gatland's first players on the team sheet.

It's inevitable coaches will pick players they are most familiar with - especially on a tour with limited time to gel.


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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:53 am

munkian wrote:They should make you a special trophy Hug
Wink

You can spend the rest of the year telling them there are no prizes for finishing fourth, or above a poorly coached Wales team and they still won't get the message.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:59 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
munkian wrote:They should make you a special trophy Hug
Wink

You can spend the rest of the year telling them there are no prizes for finishing fourth, or above a poorly coached Wales team and they still won't get the message.

Good job none of those coaches are with the Lions eh. Oh wait ... laughing
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:04 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
munkian wrote:They should make you a special trophy Hug
Wink

You can spend the rest of the year telling them there are no prizes for finishing fourth, or above a poorly coached Wales team and they still won't get the message.

Good job none of those coaches are with the Lions eh. Oh wait ...  laughing

Hopefully he's just carrying kit bags.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by munkian on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:05 am

If only the world cup winning Scotland coach had said yes Sad
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:16 am

munkian wrote:If only the world cup winning Scotland coach had said yes Sad

True. You might be looking at 3/1 on a Lions series win instead of 5/1

Beauden Barrett is looking like Dan Carter in '05 right now though, so no shame in coming second
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Scottrf on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:17 am

Except Carter could kick.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by IanBru on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:19 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
munkian wrote:They should make you a special trophy Hug
Wink

You can spend the rest of the year telling them there are no prizes for finishing fourth, or above a poorly coached Wales team and they still won't get the message.

Good job none of those coaches are with the Lions eh. Oh wait ...  laughing

Hopefully he's just carrying kit bags.
And people are getting shirty at Townsend for not wanting to be assistant to the kit bag carrier.

I love the Lions, but I'd be lying if I said this tour is anywhere near as important to me as Scotland's tour to Australia.
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by munkian on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:22 am

Important ? You'll walk it - 4th in the 6 nations mun !
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:23 am

Scottrf wrote:Except Carter could kick.

True.

It's OK though. Jordie Barrett does that job
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:24 am

munkian wrote:Important ? You'll walk it - 4th in the 6 nations mun !

The best Australian Super rugby team this year just conceded 56 points in Wellington. Easy pickings there
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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Cyril on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:28 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
munkian wrote:Important ? You'll walk it - 4th in the 6 nations mun !

The best Australian Super rugby team this year just conceded 56 points in Wellington. Easy pickings there
Wow. Southern Hemisphere rugby (with the obvious exception of NZ) is in an absolutely appalling state.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Scottrf on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:30 am

Cyril wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
munkian wrote:Important ? You'll walk it - 4th in the 6 nations mun !

The best Australian Super rugby team this year just conceded 56 points in Wellington. Easy pickings there
Wow. Southern Hemisphere rugby (with the obvious exception of NZ) is in an absolutely appalling state.

That's why NZ hide down there instead of coming to play a match against England. Pile up wins against teams we beat with 14 men, 3-0 away from home, or who lose to Italy.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:44 am

IanBru wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
munkian wrote:They should make you a special trophy Hug
Wink

You can spend the rest of the year telling them there are no prizes for finishing fourth, or above a poorly coached Wales team and they still won't get the message.

Good job none of those coaches are with the Lions eh. Oh wait ...  laughing

Hopefully he's just carrying kit bags.
And people are getting shirty at Townsend for not wanting to be assistant to the kit bag carrier.

I love the Lions, but I'd be lying if I said this tour is anywhere near as important to me as Scotland's tour to Australia.

We don't know if that's true though. It always sounded like BS to me.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:48 am

I'm not going to trawl through all the articles but Townsend was offered the role of Howley's assistant - given the superior attack play of Glasgow (and Scotland, who use similar plays) compared to Wales you can perhaps understand why that was not an appealing prospect.

Also, given fallout of Cotter getting bumped off for Townesend it wouldn't have looked good at all if he had missed the entire summer tour - his first games as new Scotland coach.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by EWT Spoons on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:49 am

I'm sure it's already been posted somewhere, but does anyone know the fixture list for the tour?

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:51 am

Scotland Tour?

V Italy in Singapore
V Australia in Australia
V Fiji in Fiji

http://www.scottishrugby.org/fixtures-results/?competition=122625

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by Cyril on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:53 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotland Tour?

V Italy in Singapore
V Australia in Australia
V Fiji in Fiji

http://www.scottishrugby.org/fixtures-results/?competition=122625
That would be a fantastic trip to go on, but very expensive!

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by EST on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:54 am

Would anybody from the other nations have cared if Scotland had four representatives in total? Add in 2 players from Gray, Gray, Maitland, Taylor, Dunbar, Russell & Watson, and take away a Lawes, Nowell, Te'o, Biggar or Moriarty - you can't tell me that is going to weaken the squad.

Thats what most of the Scottish contingent on here have been arguing for, 2 more representatives and some recognition - 4/41 - it's hardly asking for much. For those two players, you would have pretty much negated this whole argument. I love the lions, but I can't help but feel detached from the whole concept this time around.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by munkian on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 11:01 am

EST wrote:Would anybody from the other nations have cared if Scotland had four representatives in total?  Add in 2 players from Gray, Gray, Maitland, Taylor, Dunbar, Russell & Watson, and take away a Lawes, Nowell, Te'o, Biggar or Moriarty - you can't tell me that is going to weaken the squad.    

Thats what most of the Scottish contingent on here have been arguing for, 2 more representatives and some recognition - 4/41 - it's hardly asking for much.  For those two players, you would have pretty much negated this whole argument.  I love the lions, but I can't help but feel detached from the whole concept this time around.

I'd say if you want to watch Scottish players then watch your Summer tour, if you want to support the Lions then watch the Lions tour.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

Post by EWT Spoons on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 11:07 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotland Tour?

V Italy in Singapore
V Australia in Australia
V Fiji in Fiji

http://www.scottishrugby.org/fixtures-results/?competition=122625

Yeah, thanks.

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Re: Scotland 2017 6N debrief and Lions/Summer Tour lookahead

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