"Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

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"Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by McLaren on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 10:40 am

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/mar/20/tiger-woods-racial-slurs-1997-masters-my-story

A story in the Guardian based on Tigers new book about his 1997 Masters win. https://www.amazon.co.uk/1997-Masters-My-Story/dp/1455543586/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8


Ewan Murray (The Guardian) wrote:It is sad a reminder of Tiger Woods’s brilliance arrives at a point when his career has never been clouded in more doubt. With little over a fortnight to go until the Masters, the 41-year-old still cannot confirm his participation as he battles recurring back problems. Still, there was an upbeat Woods in Manhattan on Monday as he launched The 1997 Masters: My Story. Woods’s decline has not diminished the level of focus on his every move as exhibited by disappointment at the book store when fans were limited to one copy per person.

Twenty years ago Woods was not so much at the peak of his powers as offering a sign of things to come. He prevailed at Augusta by a dozen shots to claim his first major, thereby endorsing every theory that existed since childhood that he would prove a golfing phenomenon. This book is notable for being in existence at all, Woods being so guarded in his public dealings, and therefore provides superb and so rare detail of the thought processes of this golfing genius. When Tiger speaks people still sit up and take notice.

The mechanics of the 1997 Masters can wait. Woods uses this book to continually reference the struggles he had on the grounds of race. Golf, the industry which made him a superstar, was initially an uncomfortable environment. When donning a first of four Green Jackets, Woods had a goal. “I knew none of this meant, necessarily, things would change dramatically for minorities in golf. I hoped my win would encourage them to play, or to chase their dreams whatever they were.

“But it would have been naive of me to think my win would mean the end of ‘the look’ when a person from any minority walked into some golf clubs, especially the game’s private clubs. I only hoped my win, and how I won, might put a dent in the way people perceived black people.

“I hoped my win would open some doors for minorities. My biggest hope, though, was we could one day see one another as people and people alone. I wanted us to be colour blind. Twenty years later, that has yet to happen.”

Woods offers childhood context; the rocks thrown at his family home in southern California, how he could not buy a drink or change in the same locker rooms as friends in certain golf clubs. Maybe some of his incredible inner drive derived from discrimination. Woods has always been highly guarded about matters of politics or race. It is impossible to say whether time has enhanced his feelings regarding 1997; perhaps he has just waited for an opportune time to air such thoughts fully in his own words.

Augusta itself is so glaringly significant. For the club which had discriminated against black golfers to be the scene for Woods’s first major win had added meaning. Woods reveals being disappointed when he first entered Augusta National as an amateur in 1995. “Maybe I was underwhelmed because the club had excluded black golfers from playing for so long,” Woods says. “My dad said a couple of days later that Magnolia Lane didn’t impress a black golfer because of this history.”

That Woods’s father, Earl, was such a huge influence on his career is hardly revelatory. Woods uses this book to reveal the tactics Earl used to build on his fortitude; again with race as the undertone. Essentially his father verbally abused his son on the driving range with Woods able to use a code word if he felt the barrage had become too much. “I was a quitter if I used the code word. I don’t quit,” Woods recalls. “That’s how I saw myself. I was starting to get a sense of where I wanted to go in golf, but I also knew that, being half-black, I had better learn not to let insults penetrate. Insults are only words, and I couldn’t control what anyone said. But I could control how I reacted to what people said. I had to figure that out on my own, with my dad’s help. He helped in ways that people thought were hurtful. But I wanted to feel the hurt, so that I could overcome it with my golf. My dad taught me how to feel it but not let it affect my game.

“Did they think they could get to me? They couldn’t. I’d been hearing things in tournaments since I was seven or eight years old. People said things to me between green and tee, when they could get close to me. I saw but didn’t see. I heard but didn’t hear. Golf has no colour barrier when it comes to score, and who wins and who loses. There’s no judging. Lowest score wins. I had total control over that.”

Those Earl comments, though, were extreme, at his son’s behest. “‘Frak off, Tiger,’ he would sometimes say. I didn’t mind and even encouraged his cussing, which was poetry. He never repeated himself. He was very good at it and used everything he could possibly use. It was some good stuff, and eventually, I started laughing at it. It was ‘you little piece of Poopie,’ or, ‘how do you feel being a little person of African descent?’– things of that nature. that was OK. I was called those things growing up. I heard it at school and in tournaments, and I also knew the feeling of being excluded. My father’s approach was what I needed, and it worked for me. Maybe it would be called ‘tough love’ now.”

Any analysis of Woods is impossible without a nod to the scandal which engulfed his private life and led to divorce. He offers his latest public apology to his former wife, in context of “regret” that will “last a lifetime.” It was always – albeit marginally – in Woods’s defence that he had to endure personal struggles in view of the watching world.

He also offers an admission that will raise eyebrows with golf teachers, that he could never visualise shots before hitting them. Such a tactic is coached the world over.

There is also an amusing aside regarding Augusta’s Wednesday par-three contest and its evolution in recent years. “It was more of a gambling event when I first played it. Guys would play with their buddies, and usually for a pretty good amount. Some serious amount of cash was exchanged in the locker rooms.”

Woods is rueful at the alterations made to Augusta, the byproduct of how far golfers now hit the ball. After 2012’s modifications Woods claims Augusta was not as much “fun”. The 14-times major champion urges the R&A and USPGA to stunt golf ball development.

More reflection comes as Woods analyses his professionally reduced status. One of the most ferociously competitive individuals was in his element in April 1997. “Maybe I don’t live as much for that now, but I still crave competing. I also realise that, physically, I can’t necessarily do what I want to do and I know I’ll miss it when I’m done playing. Still, I love being on my own on the range, and going out in the evening to play a few holes – just me, the ball, and the course. ‘Compete’, though, remains my favourite word, and probably always will. My parents told me it was OK for me to fail, as long as I gave it everything I had. I have given it everything I have.”

Cynics will point out Woods’s slide renders outpourings such as this necessary. Yet everyone, including fellow golfers who could never get close to understanding the Woods psychology, will benefit from the insight.


It has often been denied on these boards that Tiger was subjected to racial slurs or that it was a part of what drove him, but it seems in his on words he has no doubt that golf has a race problem.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by MontysMerkin on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 11:10 am

I don't think we can just say golf has a race problem. Most of the UK and USA seem to have one too, judging by what we've seen recently.

Just waiting for someone to come on calling him oversensitive. It's usually a white, middle aged, middle class wit.
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by raycastleunited on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 12:09 pm

Who on this forum has ever denied that Woods has been subjected to racial slurs over the course of his life? I'm sure he has, it would be naive to think otherwise.

When I think of Woods I think of a golfer. Unfortunately many people think of a black golfer.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by McLaren on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 12:34 pm

raycastleunited wrote:Who on this forum has ever denied that Woods has been subjected to racial slurs over the course of his life?

For starters anyone who refused to accept pea brains fried chicken comments were racist.


Also, we have heard very little debate about how difficult it would have been for Tiger to break into such a white world.
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by JAS on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 12:50 pm

McLaren wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:Who on this forum has ever denied that Woods has been subjected to racial slurs over the course of his life?

For starters anyone who refused to accept pea brains fried chicken comments were racist.


Also, we have heard very little debate about how difficult it would have been for Tiger to break into such a white world.

So you try to condemn people's opinion on whether or not fried chicken constitutes a racial insult by hurling insults yourself at another player?? Classically ironic, even for you in WUM mode

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 12:52 pm

Mac,
Wouldn't you say it's a lot more difficult now? Especially with racism and bigotry being practiced (encouraged?) every day in the White House??
Woods had his road paved by the examples of Pete Brown, Charlie Sifford, Jim Dent, Calvin Peete, Jim Thorpe and half a dozen more; not to mention Vijay.

Certainly don't consider Sergio's comment racist, stupid maybe. You just hate Spaniards.




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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by McLaren on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 12:53 pm

JAS

If pea brain is equatable to "fried chicken" then you are correct. :thumbsup:



Although I wish I hadn't mentioned it because a more interesting direction for this thread would be to have a discussion on just how difficult it was for a young black guy to make it in golf in the late 80's early 90's.

Hopefully Tiger can communicate to us in the coming years in his post playing days just how he managed it given the substantial racism he faced.
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by McLaren on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 12:54 pm

kwini

You live in the USA so will know better than most of us on here but I really hope the White house and POTUS are not an accurate reflection of most Americans.  Based on that, would a young black player face the same barriers in club houses around the US that Tiger would have faced when he was a kid in the 80's and 90's?


(So I guess I am saying that although there are a worrying lack of black people in pro golf now, surely the masses have progressed since Tigers time?)
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 1:02 pm

Mac,
I'm just saying that there were a lot more black Touring Pros 25 years ago than there are following Woods's path. Don't know why, perhaps the elimination at most country clubs of the caddy programmes, but it's an undeniable fact.

Also, remember that discrimination isn't just black and white - I lived 20 years in a town where Italian immigrants from Calabria largely separated themselves from those from Sicily. Too many similar cans of worms not worth opening now in GB&I, not to mention thru'out Europe.

Discrimination everywhere you look.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by McLaren on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 1:06 pm

kwini

In some ways your post above highlights what I mean about people being unwilling to give Tiger any credit for overcoming racist barriers put in his way to become the best player of his generation.

I ask if people are willing to discuss the racism Tiger faced and you bring up something about there being more black pro's in his day and something about Italians. What is stopping you giving the guy some credit or at least acknowledging he faced racism in his rise through the game?
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by beninho on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 1:15 pm

I am not an expert on Tiger Woods, but i gather that he was from a pretty well to do military family. His father obviously involved in Golf or at least a gold club and lived in California.

Golf was, and still is a mainly white sport, I doubt anyone can disagree. But its not like Tiger Woods was brought up on the streets of Baltimore or racist parts of the deep south. He was brought up in Orange County which has a low percentage of black residents, and appears to be a relatively affluent part of America.

Of course he had hurdles to overcome but he was on TV as a 4 year old or something. He did not have it hard as a kid I would assume it was harder for some young white golfers.






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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 1:15 pm

Mac,
You talk some of the biggest load of b0ll0cks imaginable.
All I'm saying is why not give more credit to those whose careers might have been even more affected?
Discrimination is everywhere, not just among the "cablinasians".

Every time a golf event (especially WGC's it seems) comes around, it's Woods who makes the headlines, sick and tired of it.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by JAS on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 1:23 pm

Mac, just because I refuse to accept that Fried Chicken is a deeply damaging racial slur, that doesn't mean I don't recognise that Woods without question would have had to go through loads of racially motivated crap a) growing up and b) and even more so when he first started showing signs of success.
I remember when he won his first Masters and thinking "I can't wait to see the faces of the Augusta blazer brigade as the green jacket is presented. Without googling do you remember who presented it??

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by McLaren on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 1:32 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Mac,
You talk some of the biggest load of b0ll0cks imaginable.
All I'm saying is why not give more credit to those whose careers might have been even more affected?

Go for it? But this thread is about what Tiger mentions in his book and about his progress to the top of the game.


kwinigolfer wrote:Every time a golf event (especially WGC's it seems) comes around, it's Woods who makes the headlines, sick and tired of it.

Possibly, but what has that got to do with the issues raised in the article posted above?



Ben

I think you make some good points about the advantages Tiger would have had compared to his other black peers. But even with those advantages it seems like he got a pretty rough ride at some clubs.
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by raycastleunited on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 2:03 pm

Mac - you have no fcuking clue. Seriously, you have no idea whether he got a rough ride at some clubs. You've not even read Tiger's book.

It's a massive leap to conclude that people who do not consider Garcia's chicken comment to be racist are in denial of racism faced by Tiger over the course of his life.

You're not going to get much traction in a debate about racial discriminition in 1980's US country clubs. I think there are only 3 frequent posters who live in the US. I certainly don't know anything about it and neither do you.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by MontysMerkin on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 2:04 pm

The other thing is, few will have heard of those other black players, whereas TW was the most famous sportsman on the planet back then.

Not to draw comparisons but I would imagine the Danny t'Willetts of the world probably suffer similar prejudices at some of the more toffee nosed clubs. Especially when trying to balance peas on their knives...
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by Roller_Coaster on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 2:29 pm

McLaren wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:Who on this forum has ever denied that Woods has been subjected to racial slurs over the course of his life?

For starters anyone who refused to accept pea brains fried chicken comments were racist.

Utter horseschite.

To the best of my recollection, no-one on this forum has ever denied that Woods faced racial slurs. I certainly haven't.

I don't believe Garcia's chicken comments were borne of racist intent.

So according to you Mac, by not believing the chicken comment was necessarily racist, I am saying Woods has never faced a racial slur?

Do me a favour and Google "mutually exclusive" would you, because they're not.

Shame really, topic had (still has?) potential for interesting discussion, apologies to the rational if I have added to the wrong direction.


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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by McLaren on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 2:44 pm

raycastleunited wrote:Mac - you have no fcuking clue.......

You're not going to get much traction in a debate about racial discriminition in 1980's US country clubs. I think there are only 3 frequent posters who live in the US. I certainly don't know anything about it and neither do you.


True about 80's country clubs but the original article quotes Woods describing his own experiences and what I originally said was that we had denied (or at least never really mentioned) the racism Woods had faced during his career.

Tiger is now saying that what partly drove him to success was the fact he was racially abused in the golf world. I don't think we need knowledge of US clubs of the time to have a discussion on the lack of acknowledgement on here and more importantly in the wider golf media that Tiger did face a lot of racial prejudice.
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by raycastleunited on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 3:39 pm

wtf? "we had denied" is very different from "never really mentioned".

We've never really mentioned the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand but nobody is denying it happened.

Here's an idea: why don't you read Tiger's book and then when you've finished it you can share your thoughts on his experiences. Until then you are just fabricating stuff.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by beninho on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 3:47 pm

I'm glad you mentioned the Archduke FF. As if he was not assasinated, then he would not be as known as he is, and we would not have Scottish Arty Indie Poppers Franz Ferdinand, and we would not have the song Take me Out, which I still enjoy when I hear it. The rest of their stuff, can barely recall it.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by raycastleunited on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 3:50 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:
Every time a golf event (especially WGC's it seems) comes around, it's Woods who makes the headlines, sick and tired of it.

Although I agree with the sentiment, especially the will he / won't he speculation regarding every come back, I think it's fair play for Tiger to publicise his book now in the build up to the 20th anniversary of his maiden major.

It was a pretty phenomenal announcement that there was a ew kid on the block. Hopefully Sky will show a rerun of the 97 Masters in the next couple of weeks.

And by the way JAS..... Nick Faldo. Google not required.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by raycastleunited on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 3:51 pm

beninho wrote:I'm glad you mentioned the Archduke FF. As if he was not assasinated, then he would not be as known as he is, and we would not have Scottish Arty Indie Poppers Franz Ferdinand, and we would not have the song Take me Out, which I still enjoy when I hear it. The rest of their stuff, can barely recall it.

Good point Ben, although I always confuse them with the Kaiser chiefs.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by NedB-H on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 3:59 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Mac,
I'm just saying that there were a lot more black Touring Pros 25 years ago than there are following Woods's path. Don't know why, perhaps the elimination at most country clubs of the caddy programmes, but it's an undeniable fact.
I think this is a much more interesting point of debate than the one the thread was started for. Anyone familiar with the struggles of the likes of Calvin Peete will, sadly, be unsurprised that Woods encountered racism in golf. These sort of things won't disappear overnight. No doubt Vijay Singh and Notah Begay , among others, would have experienced similar problems breaking on to the tour around that time.

But given what Woods has achieved, you have to question why there aren't more black golfers on the tour now. Harold Varner and Joseph Bramlett the only two I can remember in the last decade or so. I don't claim to know anything much about American society, but I wonder if it's partly an issue of class as much as race. I'm not sure much effort has been made to take golf into working class/inner city black communities. And maybe amongst the younger middle class there's an element of getting a new identity, and favouring music culture or sports like basketball? I've heard that reasoning for the decline of cricket in the Caribbean, anyway.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by Diggers on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 6:05 pm

I don't think the lack of black golfers is just a reflection of US society, Woods was a worldwide superstar and huge in the UK, there aren't exactly lots of black British pros (I can't think of one from past or present).
You rarely see a black guy on a golf course full stop, let alone as a pro. Not sure what this says about class, culture or even possibly lack of interest though.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by super_realist on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 7:05 pm

McLaren wrote:kwini

You live in the USA so will know better than most of us on here but I really hope the White house and POTUS are not an accurate reflection of most Americans.  Based on that, would a young black player face the same barriers in club houses around the US that Tiger would have faced when he was a kid in the 80's and 90's?


(So I guess I am saying that although there are a worrying lack of black people in pro golf now, surely the masses have progressed since Tigers time?)

Worrying? Are you scouring the entry lists to see who is black or not every week?

The rest of us just accept the players for who they are Mac and don't really look into ethnicity. Why do you always have to have an agenda with some sort of conspiracy simmering under the surface?

I'm not really sure why you expect the demographics of a golf club/tour, to replicate that of the wider world.
Does your tenement block or bus always have the correct ration of white:black people?

Are you "worried" about the lack of black swimmers, Ice hockey players, jockeys, tennis players, darts players, snooker players etc? Are you "worried" about the lack of white distance runners, or lack of white heavyweight boxers? No.

How about the lack of black people in China, Middle East or Greenland?

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by Diggers on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 7:48 pm

To be fair when you talk for example about the lack of white distance runners it's not really true. There is a vast amount of participation, both at amateur and pro level - same with boxing - they just aren't as good. That's a different story to no grass roots involvement.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by super_realist on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 8:01 pm

I was talking about the top level Diggers, pretty sure all the running clubs round here are dominated by white people.

The point is Mac is expecting the smallest of populations to reflect the demographics of the wider community, and that's ridiculous.

It's very naïve of Mac, but totally expected.


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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by Diggers on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 8:07 pm

For me it's about access to sports at grass roots. If it turns out clubs weren't inclusive then clearly that's an issue. I don't know enough to know if that's true. I've only been a member at one and that certainly had no interest in any juniors bar the existing members (white and middle class) kids. But then again why should they feel they have to.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by NedB-H on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 8:16 pm

Elite long distance running isn't dominated just by "black people", but specifically by people of Eastern African descent, and there's been a lot of research into the physiological reasons for that. It's not really comparable to lack of success in more complicated and skill based sports. Nor are the demographies of countries like China or Greenland, which have experienced very little immigration and so are very homogenous.

If a recreational golfer and casual fan has no interest in the ethnicities of other golfers, that's up to them. But I would argue that its a very important issue for governing bodies of sports to be aware of. If there is underrepresentation of a certain demographic in grassroots participation, it may be that the sport isn't appealing to them - which is a missed opportunity for the sport. Or more seriously it could be due to discrimination as per 20th century USA. The governing body can't address this unless it's aware of it.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by Davie on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 8:18 pm

It's just Mac's chance to bring up Chicken-Gate and his friend "pea brain" again. predictable as always

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by super_realist on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 8:30 pm

NedB-H wrote:Elite long distance running isn't dominated just by "black people", but specifically by people of Eastern African descent, and there's been a lot of research into the physiological reasons for that. It's not really comparable to lack of success in more complicated and skill based sports. Nor are the demographies of countries like China or Greenland, which have experienced very little immigration and so are very homogenous.

If a recreational golfer and casual fan has no interest in the ethnicities of other golfers, that's up to them. But I would argue that its a very important issue for governing bodies of sports to be aware of. If there is underrepresentation of a certain demographic in grassroots participation, it may be that the sport isn't appealing to them - which is a missed opportunity for the sport. Or more seriously it could be due to discrimination as per 20th century USA. The governing body can't address this unless it's aware of it.


I don't think there's a single sport in the entire world which represents the demographic of the country it's based in.
Many might say Football comes the closest, but there's a real lack of sub Indian continent representation in the UK, especially in the Premier League.

It's not that golfers don't have "interest" in ethnicities of other golfers of the club, it's more that most of us have moved on from making a distinction and the need to remark about it.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 9:22 pm

McLaren wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:Who on this forum has ever denied that Woods has been subjected to racial slurs over the course of his life?

For starters anyone who refused to accept pea brains fried chicken comments were racist.


Also, we have heard very little debate about how difficult it would have been for Tiger to break into such a white world.
Oh, bugger off and change the damned record.
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 9:38 pm

Mac,
I know you consider everything that happened before 1990 to be prehistoric, not worthy of consideration, Allissian if you like, but there's an interesting paragraph in the Golf Digest article about Woods in 1997:

"The Profesional Golfers' Association of America didn't scrub the hateful phrase "professional golfers of the Causcasian race" out of its constitution until 1961, making the saddest line in a media guide this one after Charlie Sifford's name: 'Turned professional-1948; joined PGA Tour-1961."

Yes, Woods might have suffered, as other minorities of whatever stripe will suffer (yup, sometimes you or me, depending where we are), but he was fortunate to have Sifford and Peete, Thorpe and Elder, Rhodes and Dent, even Vijay and several of others to clear something of a path for him. (Excellent point by Ned that Tiger's mate, Notah Begay, might have had an even tougher time.)

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 21 Mar 2017, 9:49 pm

I'll say one thing for Woods' book - he better have used a damned good ghost writer or have changed his personality significantly as otherwise it'll be the most boring, leaden sporting tome that's ever been written.

Some very good points being made about those that blazed the trail before Woods broke through.
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by NedB-H on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 12:05 am

super_realist wrote:
NedB-H wrote:Elite long distance running isn't dominated just by "black people", but specifically by people of Eastern African descent, and there's been a lot of research into the physiological reasons for that. It's not really comparable to lack of success in more complicated and skill based sports. Nor are the demographies of countries like China or Greenland, which have experienced very little immigration and so are very homogenous.

If a recreational golfer and casual fan has no interest in the ethnicities of other golfers, that's up to them. But I would argue that its a very important issue for governing bodies of sports to be aware of. If there is underrepresentation of a certain demographic in grassroots participation, it may be that the sport isn't appealing to them - which is a missed opportunity for the sport. Or more seriously it could be due to discrimination as per 20th century USA. The governing body can't address this unless it's aware of it.


I don't think there's a single sport in the entire world which represents the demographic of the country it's based in.
Many might say Football comes the closest, but there's a real lack of sub Indian continent representation in the UK, especially in the Premier League.

It's not that golfers don't have "interest" in ethnicities of other golfers of the club, it's more that most of us have moved on from making a distinction and the need to remark about it.
Agree with most of that. Would just say that I think football as a sport should be as worried by their "issue" as golf. Not for the casual player to fix per set, but we should be aware of the possibility of a problem at least.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by NedB-H on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 12:13 am

kwinigolfer wrote:

"The Profesional Golfers' Association of America didn't scrub the hateful phrase "professional golfers of the Causcasian race" out of its constitution until 1961, making the saddest line in a media guide this one after Charlie Sifford's name: 'Turned professional-1948; joined PGA Tour-1961."
Wow. Never heard that before. But shows how serious an issue discrimination in sport can be, if not checked. And also how Woods is just part of an ongoing issue, sadly.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by super_realist on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 7:40 am

NedB-H wrote:
super_realist wrote:
NedB-H wrote:Elite long distance running isn't dominated just by "black people", but specifically by people of Eastern African descent, and there's been a lot of research into the physiological reasons for that. It's not really comparable to lack of success in more complicated and skill based sports. Nor are the demographies of countries like China or Greenland, which have experienced very little immigration and so are very homogenous.

If a recreational golfer and casual fan has no interest in the ethnicities of other golfers, that's up to them. But I would argue that its a very important issue for governing bodies of sports to be aware of. If there is underrepresentation of a certain demographic in grassroots participation, it may be that the sport isn't appealing to them - which is a missed opportunity for the sport. Or more seriously it could be due to discrimination as per 20th century USA. The governing body can't address this unless it's aware of it.


I don't think there's a single sport in the entire world which represents the demographic of the country it's based in.
Many might say Football comes the closest, but there's a real lack of sub Indian continent representation in the UK, especially in the Premier League.

It's not that golfers don't have "interest" in ethnicities of other golfers of the club, it's more that most of us have moved on from making a distinction and the need to remark about it.
Agree with most of that. Would just say that I think football as a sport should be as worried by their "issue" as golf. Not for the casual player to fix per set, but we should be aware of the possibility of a problem at least.


I don't think there's even a possibility of a problem. There is nothing to stop any ethnicity playing any sport.
No one is worried about the lack of white faces in Gospel Churches are they?

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by MontysMerkin on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 8:17 am

Love the sport of gospel shouting.
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by super_realist on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 8:21 am

What has sport got to do with it? If we're talking about activities not representing the global demographics or ethnicity ratio then there is nothing that does. Seems harsh to single out golf when I can't think of anything we do for fun which has the same ethnic ratio as the wider population.

Even Corbyn's cabinet doesn't, so I'm not sure why Mac isn't attacking that with the same fervour.
What he's done is a bit like what Trump did with Swedish grape figures. Getting the wrong end of the stick.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by MontysMerkin on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 8:45 am

Sweden does not grow grapes, far too cold.
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by super_realist on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 8:50 am

Sweden is warmer than the UK in summer, and we can grow grapes here.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by Roller_Coaster on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 9:24 am

Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance

Sweden is warmer than the UK in summer, and we can grow grapes here.

Just brought a chuckle on (I know the route of how we got to Super's comment and how it tied back, but that post just made me chuckle). One of the joys of deliberately ignoring context for a moment.

Should I get a job in journalism?

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 10:10 am

I see Mac has thrown his stink bomb and left the premises.
Kinda what he does.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by McLaren on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 10:27 am

kwini

The points you raised above about the PGA in the 60's or players that came before Tiger are interesting, but the point I was making was that "golf" hasn't really considered the impact of race on what Tiger achieved.

My frustration is that the golf media and people on here seem reluctant to give Tiger any credit for battling racism or at least accept he faced it.

Even when he writes a book detailing how racism spurred him on the responses go something like "so what there were a few more black guys in the 80's" or "why didn't tiger ensure more black people took up the game".

And I know you subscribe to the idea that Tiger didn't do enough to promote the game among ethnic minorities.
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by super_realist on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 10:38 am

Mac, How has Woods done ANYTHING in regards to battling racism other than be a black golfer?
Up until now I have never heard him comment on race or racism he's encountered, I've never heard of him promoting golf within the black community and I've never heard of him meeting with the governing bodies to discuss how golf could be made to appeal to a wider audience.

If he was so keen on breaking down racial barriers, why has he (as far as we can tell) done nothing to address it? If he was so adamant there was a racism element he experience (and I'm not saying there wasn't) then he hasn't been very vocal about it (as far as we know).

You've always got to look for some sort of tinfoil hat conspiracy Mac, as if the PGA are keeping racism in the sport alive and ticking along.


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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by beninho on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 10:40 am

I think most people would be more surprised if Tiger Woods did not face any racism when getting into golf. Whats the actual argument?


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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by MontysMerkin on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 10:43 am

super_realist wrote: If he was so adamant there was a racism element he experience (and I'm not saying there wasn't) then he hasn't been very vocal about it (as far as we know).
If you were asked to comment on the same issue day in, day out then I would imagine it would start to be a bit of a bore. See also Gordon Spieth wanting the Masters to be over so no one asks him why he blew it. And that's just one year. Imagine that since you were 5. Requires empathy I s'pose...
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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by super_realist on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 10:45 am

So why's he bringing it up now if he's so sick about talking about it?

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 10:45 am

Mac,
It's not necessarily his job "to promote the game among ethnic minorities", but it is a fact that he made golf "cool" to thousands of youngsters, but not to those minorities, certainly not in any transformational way. And it's not clear why.

Your dismissal of those who blazed the trail is just your typical "it doesn't count because it happened BT" argument which I would say is just plain ignorant - they paved the way for Tiger but who has Tiger paved the way for? Not Tiger's fault that the answer may be Rory or Rickie but it is a fact for which you offer no explanation.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

Post by beninho on Wed 22 Mar 2017, 10:47 am

The guys trying to flog a book, he is doing the press for it, he will talk about things he has not previously discussed, Its not rocket science. Everyone does it.

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Re: "Tiger Woods opens up on racial slurs that drove his desire for dominance"

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