F1 German GP Thread - Contains Qualifying & Race Spoilers as usual

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :

Ain't doing it no one reads it anyway

[Guest]

I would love to see someone different other than Seb or Lewis take the next race in China to spice things up a bit.

Seb & Lewis are in a different league to their teammates. Given reliability, I can envisage them two sharing the majority, if not all, race wins. Two tier championship, Mercedes & Ferrari dominating, with the rest making up the numbers. Pretty boring, but that’s the state of F1.

[dyrewolfe]

The engine stuff isn't the top teams, its the engine suppliers being pissed that the cutting edge engine they've spent hundreds of millions developing, and actually getting a benefit from being replaced with an engine they have to spend more money developing again that doesn't have nearly as much real life potential use.

If there are changes to the regs to force cars that can follow and battle then I suspect everyone will be all for it, whats proposed outside of engine changes is largely PR guff so Liberty can look like the good guys.

I think F1 needs to move away from the idea that everything needs to have relevance to road car production.

Its in too much of a hole, financially and as a viable spectator sport. Major changes are required to secure its long-term future and if that means drastic changes to the design regs, then so be it.

You appear to be rather confused about a few things. Engines are the single most expensive component, by a big margin and are key to reducing costs for everyone (in the long term) and making the sport more attractive for new entrants. If that means making the engine manufacturers go back to the drawing board and some initial expense, in return for significantly cheaper power units, then that can only be a positive step IMO. Don't forget it will also mean reduced production costs for the suppliers too, in the long term.

After all, its not like they didn't spend loads of money every time there have been major changes to the engine regs.


Major changes are also required to the aero regs, to improve the on-track spectacle. If they do revert to ground effect aero then lots of time & money is going to have to be devoted to re-designing pretty much every aspect of the cars.


Like I said, major changes...but then there are major problems that need to be dealt with, if the current situation is to be changed.

Personally, I think the top teams & engine manufacturers need to acknowledge these problems and stop burying their heads in the sand...or trying to protect their positions (whichever is the case).

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Mercedes rolled the dice in Bahrain and it nearly worked. Mercedes love the medium compound tyre, whereas Ferrari aren't really comfortable using that tyre. Had Mercedes done the basic two stop, Ferrari would've won by a far clip.

Anyway looking at Shanghai, it will be an easy Mercedes one two. No ifs or buts about it. The temperatures with be around mid teens so Mercedes can use that medium tyre and Ferrari won't be able to compete

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Sebastian Vettel saves his until his final run in Q3 to take a storming pole position in Shanghai, once again breaking Kimi's heart. 52nd pole position of the German's career. Consecutive front row lock outs for ferrai for the first time in 12 years. Bottas and Hamilton 3 and 4. Top 4 start on the softs

Hands up I didn't envisage a situation where ferrai could possibly be ahead of mercedes

[Guest]

Anyway looking at Shanghai, it will be an easy Mercedes one two. No ifs or buts about it.

How’s that looking?

Ferrari have the fastest package this year. You know you’re in business, when OAP Kimi is looking fast. Troubling times for Mercedes.

[GSC]

Lance Stroll might be the worst driver I've seen in a F1 car.

Williams are tossing away money with this driver lineup.

[GSC]

Lewis's Q3 time pretty much the same as a year ago while Vettel found 8 tenths, Kimi a second. Bottas only at 2 tenths improvement. Might be the story of the season so far.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Anyway looking at Shanghai, it will be an easy Mercedes one two. No ifs or buts about it.

How’s that looking?

Ferrari have the fastest package this year. You know you’re in business, when OAP Kimi is looking fast. Troubling times for Mercedes.

Easy tiger, see my previous post

And I still don't believe what I saw in qualifying

[GSC]

Meanwhile, heavily suspect 11th is probably a better place than the cars ahead that qualified on ultras. Running the ultras seems to be just added an extra pit stop. K-Mag, Ocon and the McLarens might be on for points even with a poor quali.

[GSC]

Ricciardo effectively on his 2nd engine already.

Wonder if Merc are trying to eke out more engine life while Ferrari are turning up the power and accepting inevitable penalties. Might be a few taken at Spa.

[dyrewolfe]

Interesting point GSC...but I find it unlikely given that they are already trailing Ferrari by a fair margin.

It is weird how Mercedes are suddenly half a second off Ferrari, even allowing for the different weather & track conditions.

Some are saying it could be because Merc set up their cars for the race, when its expected to be warmer, which compromised it in the cooler quali conditions.

Really hope this is the case, otherwise Hamilton's hopes of a 5th title are looking increasingly slim. Which does not bode well for an interesting season.

[GSC]

Problem is it's going to be a one stop starting on softs, and overtake with a straight line deficit. Unless Bottas gets Kimi again at the start Seb is likely to manage home

[Guest]

What a bore of a first stint. Looks a procession, so far. Kimi doing a Kimi on a Sunday, is no surprise

[Guest]

Wow, Ferrari sleeping and Bottas undercuts Vettel. Kimi used & abused by Ferrari again. No sympathy from me.

[Guest]

Safety car. Both RB pit. Bottas, Vettel & Hamilton up to third.

[Guest]

RB in business. Ricciardo might win this

[Guest]

Verstappen crashes into Vettel

Chaos everywhere

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Verstappen is Poopie and overrated

[GSC]

Hamilton called Verstappen a ****head, Vettel might go even stronger, completely amateur

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

Verstappen is a media hype wait until Mick Schumacher comes and destroys his career like Michael did to Jos

[Guest]

Ricciardo leads

Verstappen 10 sec penalty

[GSC]

Verstappen gets 10 seconds, thats kind by the stewards.

[GSC]

You know you've done something naughty when even Horner doesn't defend you

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

David Croft is truly an embarrassment to F1 commentary. Riccardo wins have all been due to misfortune of others. Yet sky f1 making out like Riccardo is an all time great

[Guest]

Ricciardo wins, Bottas second, Kimi 3rd & Lewis 4th. Vettel down in 8th

[GSC]

That was slightly more than elbows out from Alonso

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

If you sign Riccardo he's nothing more than a second driver. The hype is so unwarranted

[GSC]

Red Bull catch Ferrari and Merc napping on the SC, fresh softs much faster than the worn mediums.

Ricciardo showing up Max.

One of those days for Vettel. Didn't do too much wrong but finishes 8th.

Scratchy weekend for Lewis but he'll take 4th from that I suspect

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

I agree with john Ferrari are the best package. Baku could be a snorefest

[GSC]

Problem for Red Bull is their quali deficit limits them to these kind of sucker punch wins based on fortune. Race trim isn't a million miles away from the top 2 but they lose too much on Saturdays.

They had nothing to lose by pitting at the SC, Merc and Ferrari had track position (bar Kimi who was on fresh tyres anyway).

[Marky]

Easy to forget Bottas superbly got past Raikkonen and nailed it to get past Vettel, would have got the win if the Safety Car didn't happen.

[CaledonianCraig]

Worth noting as well that Ferrari's strategy of using Raikkonen in any which way they can to help Vettel blew up in their face. They compromised Kimi keeping him out way too long in a bid to block Bottas and get their darling back in front. Vital seconds lost for Kimi and it may have cost him a race win.

[GSC]

Eh, it also meant Kimi had the fresher tyres at the end after the SC, it wasn't great for Kimi but ultimately he didnt end up losing out. One of those mad races.

The weekend Bottas needed after his start to the year, but hes probably still well short of earning the second Merc seat for next year.

McLarens high drag chassis works much better in the race, but its bogging down in quali. If the upgrades they keep talking about arrive, they should be well placed to beat Renault to 4th. Alonso showing his class this year, opportunistic as ever.

Toro Rosso slipped way back after the heights of Bahrain. Haas could do with a hurry up, haven't really turned performance into points. Force India look like the years of punching above their weight are over.

Williams are in trouble. Uncompetitive car and worst driver lineup on the grid.

[CaledonianCraig]

On the teams:-

Mercedes have dropped a notch or two and don't seem to know what the problem is.

Ferrari have improved a notch or two and look to be the team to beat.

Red Bull are still not quite there as a consistent winning team. Good race pace but poor qualifying but a tad closer to Mercedes.

Renault are still in no man's land but perhaps the best of the rest.

Haas seem to have improved a bit on last season and look more competitive.

McLaren are also more competitive but will be hoping for more.

Force India have gone backwards since last year where they were consistently the best of the rest last year.

Toro Rosso are hard to judge. They seem to be doing better with Honda power than McLaren did but still not able to find consistency.

Sauber seem to have improved a little on last year and are no longer perrenial last placers.

Williams have fallen a long way from where they were ladt year and are now at the bottom of the pile.

[dyrewolfe]

Well that was a pretty boring race up to the first round of pit stops. Also notable that once again the Safety Car played a major role in shaking things up. Props to Red Bull for out-thinking Merc & Ferrari. Gutsy strategy call that could have (and almost did) backfired.

Great drive by Bottas and a nice aggressive move to overtake Vettel on track, to take the lead. Guess he can really do it when he wants. Hamilton sadly anonymous for most of the race. Never seemed to have the pace to trouble the Ferraris.

Ferrari looked pretty strong all race, only really challenged by Bottas...until the Safety Car when RB pitted both cars at once (for the second time). Vettel unlucky to have his race further ruined by Verstappen.

Red Bull looked as though their hopes for a podium rested with Verstappen...who blew that with 2 more mistakes, first going off track attempting to overtake Hamilton, then colliding with Vettel, trying to overtake in a corner. The team's strategy of a stacked stop during the SC was a genius move, putting both cars on fresh soft tyres, while Merc & Ferrari were on wearing mediums, allowing them a late push. Max rather blew his chances, but Ricciardo showed how it should be done, with a series of trademark overtakes. The tyre difference was really highlighted by how fast he caught Bottas, the Merc driver having little chance to defend his position.

I think RB still lack the outright pace to challenge Ferrari or Mercedes, in equal conditions, but if they get the chance to pull a strategy change on the fly, they can certainly put themselves in the mix.

Another decent result for Alonso, but its becoming clear McLaren are the slowest of the Renault powered cars. Both the team and the engine supplier still have a lot of work to do.

Still it was nice to see Ricciardo back on the podium...his reaction over the radio was priceless. The result keeps the drivers' & constructors' championships interesting (for now).

[dyrewolfe]

Worth noting as well that Ferrari's strategy of using Raikkonen in any which way they can to help Vettel blew up in their face. They compromised Kimi keeping him out way too long in a bid to block Bottas and get their darling back in front. Vital seconds lost for Kimi and it may have cost him a race win.

I dunno what the contract situation is with the Ferrari drivers - (the pundits were talking about rumours of Ricciardo going there next season) but I honestly think Ferrari have put all their eggs in one basket and are happy to use Kimi as a wingman to help Vettel...even if it costs them a race win. Seems weird to me, but thats what it looks like.

[dyrewolfe]

That was slightly more than elbows out from Alonso

Agree that did look a bit naughty. I suspect if they had been fighting for podium places, the stewards might have been less lenient.

[dyrewolfe]

If you sign Riccardo he's nothing more than a second driver. The hype is so unwarranted

You've got a short memory. This is the same guy who schooled Vettel in his last season at Red Bull.

He's also one of the best overtakers on the grid. Given he's had the 3rd best car for the last few seasons, I would say he's done pretty well.

[Guest]

For all the attention surrounding Ricciardo's future, a certain Lewis Hamilton is stalling on that contract extension.......

[GSC]

I mean at the end of the day Merc used Lewis to slow up Vettel in Bahrain and Bottas in Spain last year. Kimi is obv a number 2 though, imagine his replacement is likely to be more in that/Bottas mould than a genuine top talent.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

I wonder what's the possibility of Hamilton joining Red Bull or returning to McLaren are. If we believe that Ferrari have moved ahead of Mercedes, I can't see the Scuderia signing Hamilton as his wages mirror Vettel and I don't see it practical for an expenditure of $80m-$100m in salaries as good business.

McLaren obviously are along way off even Red Bull at present but it is Hamilton's home. Joining Red Bull would be dependent on honda upping their game as it is the general consensus that Toro Rosso are the guinea pig for their sister team.

[Nathaniel Jacobs]

If you sign Riccardo he's nothing more than a second driver. The hype is so unwarranted

You've got a short memory. This is the same guy who schooled Vettel in his last season at Red Bull.

He's also one of the best overtakers on the grid. Given he's had the 3rd best car for the last few seasons, I would say he's done pretty well.

Ricciardo lost to Kvyat the following season...

[Trebs]

I wonder what's the possibility of Hamilton joining Red Bull or returning to McLaren are. If we believe that Ferrari have moved ahead of Mercedes, I can't see the Scuderia signing Hamilton as his wages mirror Vettel and I don't see it practical for an expenditure of $80m-$100m in salaries as good business.

McLaren obviously are along way off even Red Bull at present but it is Hamilton's home. Joining Red Bull would be dependent on honda upping their game as it is the general consensus that Toro Rosso are the guinea pig for their sister team.

I think the finances are irrelevant. Putting Hamilton and Vettel together is a disaster waiting to happen.

Having said that, I'd love to see it happen, we'd probably have the greatest F1 season that I can remember.

[Guest]

LeClerc isn’t ready, and the market is quite poor. Tbh, finances are irrelevant, they could afford it, given the payments they receive & the added sponsorship and intrigue worldwide they would receive from the partnership. Depends what Ferrari want from F1. Do they want to step into the shoes of Mercedes, who’s era is possibly fading, or do they want to extend their 10 year streak, of not winning a constructors. A record which is pretty embarrassing. If they’re contemplating Ricciardo (who won’t play second fiddle), no reason why Hamilton can’t be signed, or considered.

As for Hamilton, stalling the contract stinks of Hamilton questioning whether to jump ship, something he’s no stranger too. Mercedes have won only one of the last six races? That doesn’t help make a driver sign. Don’t see him returning to McLaren, it would be a waste of time, and he won’t partner Verstappen at RB. I’d say he’d still want a title at a third different constructor (Ferrari) to cement his legacy. If that’s not possible, then retirement.

[Fernando]

if Ferrari want a no.2 to replace Kimi it'll be Grosjean id imagine

[GSC]

K Mag might be more likely if Grosjean doesn't pick it up

[Fernando]

I don't see Magnussen playing a supporting role to Vettel very well in all honesty. He'd be calling him a d*ckhead every 5 laps

[dyrewolfe]

If you sign Riccardo he's nothing more than a second driver. The hype is so unwarranted

You've got a short memory. This is the same guy who schooled Vettel in his last season at Red Bull.

He's also one of the best overtakers on the grid. Given he's had the 3rd best car for the last few seasons, I would say he's done pretty well.

Ricciardo lost to Kvyat the following season...

Remind me...where is Kvyat now...?

[dyrewolfe]

I wonder what's the possibility of Hamilton joining Red Bull or returning to McLaren are. If we believe that Ferrari have moved ahead of Mercedes, I can't see the Scuderia signing Hamilton as his wages mirror Vettel and I don't see it practical for an expenditure of $80m-$100m in salaries as good business.

McLaren obviously are along way off even Red Bull at present but it is Hamilton's home. Joining Red Bull would be dependent on honda upping their game as it is the general consensus that Toro Rosso are the guinea pig for their sister team.

I think the finances are irrelevant. Putting Hamilton and Vettel together is a disaster waiting to happen.

Having said that, I'd love to see it happen, we'd probably have the greatest F1 season that I can remember.

Yeah, Ferrari seem to favour a #1 and #2 driver system. If the Hamilton - Alonso season was anything to go by, Hamilton & Vettel might be memorable for all the wrong reasons. Just look at Azerbaijan last season.

[dyrewolfe]

LeClerc isn’t ready, and the market is quite poor. Tbh, finances are irrelevant, they could afford it, given the payments they receive & the added sponsorship and intrigue worldwide they would receive from the partnership. Depends what Ferrari want from F1. Do they want to step into the shoes of Mercedes, who’s era is possibly fading, or do they want to extend their 10 year streak, of not winning a constructors. A record which is pretty embarrassing. If they’re contemplating Ricciardo (who won’t play second fiddle), no reason why Hamilton can’t be signed, or considered.

As for Hamilton, stalling the contract stinks of Hamilton questioning whether to jump ship, something he’s no stranger too. Mercedes have won only one of the last six races? That doesn’t help make a driver sign. Don’t see him returning to McLaren, it would be a waste of time, and he won’t partner Verstappen at RB. I’d say he’d still want a title at a third different constructor (Ferrari) to cement his legacy. If that’s not possible, then retirement.

I honestly can't see Hamilton going to Ferrari while Vettel is there. They would not tolerate the kind of shenanigans that went on at Red Bull between Vettel & Webber, or Mercedes between Hamilton & Rosberg.

If he wants to jump ship, his the only viable alternative is Red Bull...assuming they can make some strides this season and prove they can be truly competitive. A return to McLaren is a very long shot, but interesting to see if the upgrades promised for Spain really deliver. If they can show they are at least on a par with RB, its not out of the question.

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