Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

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Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by IanBru on Tue 28 Mar 2017, 10:39 pm

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by RDW_Scotland on Sun 09 Apr 2017, 7:14 pm

One player we've forgotten about is Grieg Tonks, probably because he's been playing in The Championship.

He's been a regular for Irish and is their first choice kicker - plays mainly 15 but 10 too.

He would have been a very handy player for Edinburgh to have this season as an experienced head in the backline. He's only 27 too so got a few years left.

Can't see him coming back any time soon, particularly if/when LI get promoted.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by jimbopip on Sun 09 Apr 2017, 7:19 pm

I remember a colleague returning from a conference where he expostulated at length on the one, important, thing he had taken from it.
All institutions have cycles of success and failure. In schools it can result in very high peaks and correspondingly low troughs. As he put it, "Become a head at a school just after it has bottomed out. No matter what you do it will improve and you'll look brilliant. Leave just before it peaks. The next person will oversee its downturn and in retrospect you'll look even better."
So, are Glasgow at the start, mid-point or near the end of a downturn?
Or, is it just that a large percentage of their squad have played to much rugby over the last eighteen months and are playing from memory?
Dave Rennie's first job should not be to run out and buy an 8, 10, 12 and 15, but to, very politely, tell Toonie to go impregnate himself because Gray, Harley, Dunbar, Wilson, Hogg, Seymour will NOT be visiting the Penal Colony this summer but instead will be spending three weeks in bed reading nothing more demanding than an Oor Wullie annual.

Referring back to my colleague's point about sine waves; Wales and Ireland away and France then England at home Shocked Toonie could be facing a whitewash. Three wins out of that and he is a great coach.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 9:17 am

On the fullback issue, Darcy Graham played FB for the u21s fairly recently I think and was very good.  Not sure if he's being signed for the wing or FB, but he could be an option going forward.

With regards to FES's team list for Edinburgh a while ago, I think that highlights how much 'filler' we have in the squad, I have no idea who agreed to signing these players but some of them are just not good enough, or apparently are not wanted.

The Bryce brothers I still don't understand, Glenn had a couple of semi decent games for Glasgow and to date has looked woeful at Edinburgh.  Kevin is baffling, he only started playing as a pro in 2014, he’s going to be 29 this year and has been moved (reluctantly) to one of the most technical positions on the rugby field, and to a club he probably didn’t really want to join.  Nothing about that screams that he is going to be anything other than backup at Edinburgh.  McCallum has looked better so far and is considerably younger.  The club just need to work out where he is going to play going forward, either at LH or TH and leave him to develop there, he’s looked good at TH so far and it would probably make sense to focus his attention there.

Beavon, only signed a one year deal (from what I can remember) and given I don’t think he’s played a minute for Edinburgh since signing (I could be wrong on that one) I can’t see him getting a new contract next year.  So our TH options realistically are Nel, Berghan, McCallum and a very distant last Bryce.

In terms of the rest of the squad, there are lot of others who don’t seem to be wanted/aren’t up to it, and hopefully will be offloaded at the earliest opportunity.  I appreciate that Edinburgh isn’t going to be a desirable club to join and cutting these players could leave us short, but hopefully Cockerill will be a bit of a draw for some, and we could look at the academy players to help fill in the squad.  The experienced pros we have now aren’t setting the heather alight so we may as well give some of the other younger lads a squad place to come off the bench etc.

Oh and we urgently need a 10.  Weir is not the answer, and Tovey has regressed rapidly, sadly though there isn’t a plethora of 10s lining up to join the club, and even if they did Hodge would destroy any ability they had anyway.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 9:22 am

Beavon has had a few minutes off the bench recently - hard to know how good he is.

i think Bryce is still worth pursuing for another year - he has been injured for most of the season and that would have stalled his development. No point bringing him over and getting rid of him before we know whether he is going to be an option at 3 or not.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by tigertattie on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:18 am

I'm all for giving players a rest but there's two issues that need to be considered.

1. Players who are potential Lions won't want to sit out of games as they'll want to keep their profile up and keep on Gatland's radar.
2. With both teams getting new coaches next season, players could very well be playing for their places at the clubs.
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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:20 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:One player we've forgotten about is Grieg Tonks, probably because he's been playing in The Championship.

He's been a regular for Irish and is their first choice kicker - plays mainly 15 but 10 too.

He would have been a very handy player for Edinburgh to have this season as an experienced head in the backline. He's only 27 too so got a few years left.

Can't see him coming back any time soon, particularly if/when LI get promoted.

Tonks is much better than Bryce at 15, ten times the player Weir is at 10 and a player we would have been wise to hang on to.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:27 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:One player we've forgotten about is Grieg Tonks, probably because he's been playing in The Championship.

He's been a regular for Irish and is their first choice kicker - plays mainly 15 but 10 too.

He would have been a very handy player for Edinburgh to have this season as an experienced head in the backline. He's only 27 too so got a few years left.

Can't see him coming back any time soon, particularly if/when LI get promoted.

Tonks is much better than Bryce at 15, ten times the player Weir is at 10 and a player we would have been wise to hang on to.

It did come as a bit of a shock when he left, and it was half way through the season too. I do remember him leaving at a time when we really could have done with him.

I doubt he'll come back unless the Scotland carrot is dangled in front of him.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by SirBurger on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:43 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:One player we've forgotten about is Grieg Tonks, probably because he's been playing in The Championship.

He's been a regular for Irish and is their first choice kicker - plays mainly 15 but 10 too.

He would have been a very handy player for Edinburgh to have this season as an experienced head in the backline. He's only 27 too so got a few years left.

Can't see him coming back any time soon, particularly if/when LI get promoted.

Irish fan jumping in here. Tonks has been good, but not quite true that he is our first-choice kicker (that is Tommy Bell), and also not quite true that he has been a 'regular.' He has played often because of our rotation policy, but would not be in our strongest XV. In fact, although I am happy he has signed on for a few more seasons, most fans haven't been especially impressed with his form. He looked a lot better last season at 10. He seems to lack the pace required to be a threatening full back.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:46 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:One player we've forgotten about is Grieg Tonks, probably because he's been playing in The Championship.

He's been a regular for Irish and is their first choice kicker - plays mainly 15 but 10 too.

He would have been a very handy player for Edinburgh to have this season as an experienced head in the backline. He's only 27 too so got a few years left.

Can't see him coming back any time soon, particularly if/when LI get promoted.

Tonks is much better than Bryce at 15, ten times the player Weir is at 10 and a player we would have been wise to hang on to.

It did come as a bit of a shock when he left, and it was half way through the season too.  I do remember him leaving at a time when we really could have done with him.

I doubt he'll come back unless the Scotland carrot is dangled in front of him.

Agreed. Don't think he'll come back. There were a few players like that who didn't quite fire to full potentially but certainly had something. Bezzy was another in that category of handy to have around and covered both 10 and 15. The much mocked Piers Francis obviously had more about him than we ever managed to utilize, and I always thought Alex Toolis should have been retained.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:46 am

SirBurger wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:One player we've forgotten about is Grieg Tonks, probably because he's been playing in The Championship.

He's been a regular for Irish and is their first choice kicker - plays mainly 15 but 10 too.

He would have been a very handy player for Edinburgh to have this season as an experienced head in the backline. He's only 27 too so got a few years left.

Can't see him coming back any time soon, particularly if/when LI get promoted.

Irish fan jumping in here. Tonks has been good, but not quite true that he is our first-choice kicker (that is Tommy Bell), and also not quite true that he has been a 'regular.' He has played often because of our rotation policy, but would not be in our strongest XV. In fact, although I am happy he has signed on for a few more seasons, most fans haven't been especially impressed with his form. He looked a lot better last season at 10. He seems to lack the pace required to be a threatening full back.

Thanks for the clarity - I don't follow LI closely but do keep an eye on the results and saw he had been playing fairly regularly, if not a 1st choice pick.  It is worth saying that at Edinburgh we're not looking for the next Stuart Hogg or Finn Russell - being better than Duncan Weir and 19 year old Blair Kinghorn would suffice!

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by SirBurger on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:51 am

Yes - wholeheartedly agree that he would be a better option than Weir - just wanted to clarify that he hadn't been ripping up trees for us!

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:53 am

SirBurger wrote:Yes - wholeheartedly agree that he would be a better option than Weir - just wanted to clarify that he hadn't been ripping up trees for us!

I'd agree that I would never say he was a player that ripped up trees for us either, but he is a good solid pro with a big left boot and I wish we still had him. 'Solid' would be much better than what we currently have at Edinburgh!

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:57 am

I think we need to confront the elephant in the room and address "The Edinburgh Effect".

It's based on the premise that a miasma of rancidness emanates from Edinburgh rugby that turns even the most skilled players into absolute halfwits. Those immune to the worst of these effects appear to be forwards, with Hamish Watson being the best example.

Seriously I don't understand how a club like Edinburgh seems to turn winners into wimps with reckless abandon.

Even Mark Bennett thought having an ACL reconstruction was preferable to playing a season with Edinburgh rugby!


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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:58 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
SirBurger wrote:Yes - wholeheartedly agree that he would be a better option than Weir - just wanted to clarify that he hadn't been ripping up trees for us!

I'd agree that I would never say he was a player that ripped up trees for us either, but he is a good solid pro with a big left boot and I wish we still had him. 'Solid' would be much better than what we currently have at Edinburgh!

His pace is certainly what held him back at fullback, but when he arrived from Northampton he was a rock solid option at 15. Consistent under the high ball, made his tackles and had a thumping boot. Of course exposure to the expert coaches at Edinburgh slowly destroyed all of that, and we were left with a player who wasn't quite doing it at 10 and seemed to have lost confidence at 15, but that's what Edinburgh does to players. Still, Weir and Bryce have both been beyond useless the season and I'd trade them for Tonks and Bezzy in a heartbeat.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by funnyExiledScot on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:59 am

Nice timing Radge! My post was exactly on point: The Edinburgh Effect!

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by Hazel Sapling on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 11:03 am

I wonder, if Tovey is not the answer for Cockerill, if it does not make more sense to make Jackson an offer rather than be stuck as 2nd/3rd banana at Quins. That is unless Sale make a move for him. Not the consistent kicker that is needed but he has played ok when healthy which has not been too often this season. Really someone like Myler is perfect but he has held on doggedly at Northampton.

Re Thomson, that is a shame as he looked alright. Shulte should take his place in the team then. This is the time to test our depth players to see if they are good enough for next season and give experience to the younger group pushing through. Wynne, Smith and Fagerson could turn out to be the younger version Ritchie, Watson and Bradbury.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by tigertattie on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 11:06 am

Saw Ally Hogg playing for Newcastle in their victory at the weekend. He had a bit of a shocker when someone ghosted passed him for a try but he still seems to be reasonably solid.

How on earth he's continually overlooked from the Scotland squad when we let Ryan Wilson get so many caps is beyond me!

He'd also make an excellent pack leader at Edinburgh with CDP and Watson, that would be a nice balanced backrow with Bradbury or Ritchie on the bench.

Alternatively he could be at Glasgow as a replacement for Strauss.

Did he kick Dodson's dog or stand on Johnson's Johnson at some point and thus get exiled from Scotland?
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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by MacKnocked-on on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 11:20 am

tigertattie wrote:Saw Ally Hogg playing for Newcastle in their victory at the weekend. He had a bit of a shocker when someone ghosted passed him for a try but he still seems to be reasonably solid.

How on earth he's continually overlooked from the Scotland squad when we let Ryan Wilson get so many caps is beyond me!

He'd also make an excellent pack leader at Edinburgh with CDP and Watson, that would be a nice balanced backrow with Bradbury or Ritchie on the bench.

Alternatively he could be at Glasgow as a replacement for Strauss.

Did he kick Dodson's dog or stand on Johnson's Johnson at some point and thus get exiled from Scotland?  

Don't forget John Hardie is still there, he's just the sort of player Cockerill likes. In any case the pack isn't really the issue with Edinburgh, it's the backs and the coaches that are the big problem. Cockerill did say in his Scotsman interview that he's trying to recruit some backs currently and I would hope there is no SRU pressure to retain Hodge and the other existing coaches as they are clearly not cut out for it. I read that Super Rugby is cutting from 15 to 12 teams next season so there may well be some decent players on the market (might even be the odd SQ option as well) that would improve Edinburgh.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by EST on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 11:24 am

There is absolutely no way that any of the current Edinburgh coaches should be kept on - they have a truly dismal record. Unfortunately, I suspect they will be, for at least the start of the campaign while Cockerill susses things out.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 11:25 am

MacKnocked-on wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Saw Ally Hogg playing for Newcastle in their victory at the weekend. He had a bit of a shocker when someone ghosted passed him for a try but he still seems to be reasonably solid.

How on earth he's continually overlooked from the Scotland squad when we let Ryan Wilson get so many caps is beyond me!

He'd also make an excellent pack leader at Edinburgh with CDP and Watson, that would be a nice balanced backrow with Bradbury or Ritchie on the bench.

Alternatively he could be at Glasgow as a replacement for Strauss.

Did he kick Dodson's dog or stand on Johnson's Johnson at some point and thus get exiled from Scotland?  

Don't forget John Hardie is still there, he's just the sort of player Cockerill likes. In any case the pack isn't really the issue with Edinburgh, it's the backs and the coaches that are the big problem. Cockerill did say in his Scotsman interview that he's trying to recruit some backs currently and I would hope there is no SRU pressure to retain Hodge and the other existing coaches as they are clearly not cut out for it. I read that Super Rugby is cutting from 15 to 12 teams next season so there may well be some decent players on the market (might even be the odd SQ option as well) that would improve Edinburgh.

18 - 15 teams - they are losing 1 Aussie team and 2 SA teams from 2018

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by MacKnocked-on on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 11:31 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
MacKnocked-on wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Saw Ally Hogg playing for Newcastle in their victory at the weekend. He had a bit of a shocker when someone ghosted passed him for a try but he still seems to be reasonably solid.

How on earth he's continually overlooked from the Scotland squad when we let Ryan Wilson get so many caps is beyond me!

He'd also make an excellent pack leader at Edinburgh with CDP and Watson, that would be a nice balanced backrow with Bradbury or Ritchie on the bench.

Alternatively he could be at Glasgow as a replacement for Strauss.

Did he kick Dodson's dog or stand on Johnson's Johnson at some point and thus get exiled from Scotland?  

Don't forget John Hardie is still there, he's just the sort of player Cockerill likes. In any case the pack isn't really the issue with Edinburgh, it's the backs and the coaches that are the big problem. Cockerill did say in his Scotsman interview that he's trying to recruit some backs currently and I would hope there is no SRU pressure to retain Hodge and the other existing coaches as they are clearly not cut out for it. I read that Super Rugby is cutting from 15 to 12 teams next season so there may well be some decent players on the market (might even be the odd SQ option as well) that would improve Edinburgh.

18 - 15 teams - they are losing 1 Aussie team and 2 SA teams from 2018

My mistake, still three teams going means a lot of potentially good players could be available fairly inexpensively. Out of three Super Rugby squads you would assume there must be at least 6 better 10s than Edinburgh currently have.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 11:57 am

MacKnocked-on wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
MacKnocked-on wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Saw Ally Hogg playing for Newcastle in their victory at the weekend. He had a bit of a shocker when someone ghosted passed him for a try but he still seems to be reasonably solid.

How on earth he's continually overlooked from the Scotland squad when we let Ryan Wilson get so many caps is beyond me!

He'd also make an excellent pack leader at Edinburgh with CDP and Watson, that would be a nice balanced backrow with Bradbury or Ritchie on the bench.

Alternatively he could be at Glasgow as a replacement for Strauss.

Did he kick Dodson's dog or stand on Johnson's Johnson at some point and thus get exiled from Scotland?  

Don't forget John Hardie is still there, he's just the sort of player Cockerill likes. In any case the pack isn't really the issue with Edinburgh, it's the backs and the coaches that are the big problem. Cockerill did say in his Scotsman interview that he's trying to recruit some backs currently and I would hope there is no SRU pressure to retain Hodge and the other existing coaches as they are clearly not cut out for it. I read that Super Rugby is cutting from 15 to 12 teams next season so there may well be some decent players on the market (might even be the odd SQ option as well) that would improve Edinburgh.

18 - 15 teams - they are losing 1 Aussie team and 2 SA teams from 2018

My mistake, still three teams going means a lot of potentially good players could be available fairly inexpensively. Out of three Super Rugby squads you would assume there must be at least 6 better 10s than Edinburgh currently have.

2 mins 35 in ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqLV_IsuTLE

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by BigGee on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 12:22 pm

I think we might see John Dalziel moving into a coaching position with Edinburgh next season. He and Linean are not going to be with London Scottish next season and JD has done a pretty decent job with the pack down there. He probably does deserve the chance to show what he can do with a decent pack.

For the backs coach, could we see Mike Blair coming over from Glasgow. He has served his apprenticeship now and Glasgow do seem a bit top heavy with coaches. If he wants to progress as a coach then he will need to move on.

As has already been said, Scott and Hodge have had their chances to show what they can do and do not seem to have delivered the goods. It is hard to see what they can offer the team now, Cockerill needs a clean slate to work with, which unfortunately means a clear out of the dead wood.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by BigGee on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 12:39 pm

Announced that Grayson Hart leaving Glasgow for Ealing Trailfinders next season. They are a championship side with a serious bit of money behind them and might give Bristol a bit of a run for their money.

Hart never really quite made it at either of the Scottish clubs, always third choice and never really got the game time. Always gave it a decent crack when he cam on though. The championship will probably prove to be his true level though.

That leaves Glasgow with three SHs for next season, assuming the Fijian is off as well. There have been a few rumours about Nico coming back, but that may well depend on how his court case pans out. He has been a lost soul since he left us and I am sure he would be welcomed back if proven innocent.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 12:42 pm

When they announced Cockerill signing they said that the current coaches would be kept on next season.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by MacKnocked-on on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 12:48 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:When they announced Cockerill signing they said that the current coaches would be kept on next season.

That would seem a ridiculous decision really.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by BigGee on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 1:06 pm

MacKnocked-on wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:When they announced Cockerill signing they said that the current coaches would be kept on next season.

That would seem a ridiculous decision really.

You would imagine it might be being re-appraised bearing in mind what has happened since the announcement. Votes of confidence and promises in professional sport don't really count for much in the cold light of day, it is results that matter. If they want to get rid of the existing coaches, then they will. None of them are making much of a case for themselves and it would hardly be an unpopular move.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by EST on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 1:17 pm

Is Stevie Scott still there - if he manages to eek out another contract with the SRU I would be amazed. He seems to have been involved perhaps as far back as Bradley?

Hodge seems like a decent bloke, but his record is abysmal - he has been appointed to Scotland and Edinburgh without ever really proving himself as a coach (i'm aware this worked for Toonie, but I think he is the exception rather than the rule).

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by MacKnocked-on on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 1:24 pm

Not sure whats happened at London Scottish this season, they got a real thrashing from Ealing at the weekend, 11 tries conceded. Not sure if Dalziel and Lineen are the answer for helping Cockerill.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by EST on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 1:33 pm

MacKnocked-on wrote:Not sure whats happened at London Scottish this season, they got a real thrashing from Ealing at the weekend, 11 tries conceded. Not sure if Dalziel and Lineen are the answer for helping Cockerill.

Bi changes are afoot at LS, they recently announced a move to become semi-pro and apparently have no players signed up for next year. Probably not a conducive atmosphere for producing good rugby results. I think they did OK at the start of the year, when you consider the public argument the SRU and LS engaged in. Dalziel also has credit in the bank for the job he has done with the U20's and Melrose.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by BigGee on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 1:34 pm

MacKnocked-on wrote:Not sure whats happened at London Scottish this season, they got a real thrashing from Ealing at the weekend, 11 tries conceded. Not sure if Dalziel and Lineen are the answer for helping Cockerill.

LS actually had some pretty decent results earlier in the season, considering the situation they were in at the start. Most of the Scottish contingent are away now and they are struggling. They are also being realistic about their financial situation for next year and are most likely to go back to being semi pro again. They have decided to live within their means. They will likely struggle even more next season and could easily go down a division. That is really just a matter of economics and no reflection on the coaching.

Most teams in the championship are struggling financially. Trailfinders are one of the best financed, due to the Trailfinders organisation and have money to spend on players. They are likely to be a serious force for promotion next year.

The idea of a fully professional second division, even in England, is just a pipe dream and most of the sides are waking up to that fact now.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 1:54 pm

BigGee wrote:
MacKnocked-on wrote:Not sure whats happened at London Scottish this season, they got a real thrashing from Ealing at the weekend, 11 tries conceded. Not sure if Dalziel and Lineen are the answer for helping Cockerill.

LS actually had some pretty decent results earlier in the season, considering the situation they were in at the start. Most of the Scottish contingent are away now and they are struggling. They are also being realistic about their financial situation for next year and are most likely to go back to being semi pro again. They have decided to live within their means. They will likely struggle even more next season and could easily go down a division. That is really just a matter of economics and no reflection on the coaching.

Most teams in the championship are struggling financially. Trailfinders are one of the best financed, due to the Trailfinders organisation and have money to spend on players. They are likely to be a serious force for promotion next year.

The idea of a fully professional second division, even in England, is just a pipe dream and most of the sides are waking up to that fact now.

While I like Ealing (went to a fair few games when I was living in the area) they have even less of a stadium than London (RIP) Welsh did. Trailfinders would need to invest a lot in facilities if they came up
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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by tigertattie on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 2:41 pm

EST wrote:Is Stevie Scott still there - if he manages to eek out another contract with the SRU I would be amazed.  He seems to have been involved perhaps as far back as Bradley?

Hodge seems like a decent bloke, but his record is abysmal - he has been appointed to Scotland and Edinburgh without ever really proving himself as a coach (i'm aware this worked for Toonie, but I think he is the exception rather than the rule).  

Hodge was purely a kicking coach and has just been promoted time and time again without any results to back up why!
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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by EWT Spoons on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 2:50 pm

tigertattie wrote:
EST wrote:Is Stevie Scott still there - if he manages to eek out another contract with the SRU I would be amazed.  He seems to have been involved perhaps as far back as Bradley?

Hodge seems like a decent bloke, but his record is abysmal - he has been appointed to Scotland and Edinburgh without ever really proving himself as a coach (i'm aware this worked for Toonie, but I think he is the exception rather than the rule).  

Hodge was purely a kicking coach and has just been promoted time and time again without any results to back up why!

From what I can remember, I don't think he was up to much as a kicking coach either.

There should be a total clearout of coaches at Edinburgh, Stevie Scott seemed to be doing well with the forwards but they seem to have gone downhill since Solly left, so perhaps it was nothing to with Scott. Hodge should go to a premiership club and learn from an experienced coach there and possibly come back when he's got a bit more experience.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by EST on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 3:40 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
EST wrote:Is Stevie Scott still there - if he manages to eek out another contract with the SRU I would be amazed.  He seems to have been involved perhaps as far back as Bradley?

Hodge seems like a decent bloke, but his record is abysmal - he has been appointed to Scotland and Edinburgh without ever really proving himself as a coach (i'm aware this worked for Toonie, but I think he is the exception rather than the rule).  

Hodge was purely a kicking coach and has just been promoted time and time again without any results to back up why!

From what I can remember, I don't think he was up to much as a kicking coach either.

There should be a total clearout of coaches at Edinburgh, Stevie Scott seemed to be doing well with the forwards but they seem to have gone downhill since Solly left, so perhaps it was nothing to with Scott.  Hodge should go to a premiership club and learn from an experienced coach there and possibly come back when he's got a bit more experience.

Although you can't fault the appointments of Cockers and Rennie (I am still amazed we managed to sign him up), the SRU must realise that the positions of the current coaching team are untenable now?

Cockers with Dalziel and Blair under him, as forwards and backs coaches respectively, would be a good balance - and allow the SRU to show they are developing Scottish coaching talent. Either that or let Cockerill pick his own team.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by Hazel Sapling on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:41 pm

Were London Scottish receiving money from the SRU or was the subsidy purely coaching/players/medical care? Shame about the semi-pro move but it is better to be sustainable over a number of years than run up debts being mid table in the second division.

I hope the SRU end up pushing more players down to LS (from 8 to 14-16) and include guys who have need to rebuild form/fitness after a long injury layoff on short term loans (Fusaro/most of Edinburgh's squad). Championship is a good level for a number of Scot's players who are not getting game time (Glasgow) or who should be developed before being put in ahead of their time (Edinburgh).

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by tigertattie on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 9:15 am

I think it was only medical bills that were covered.

LS get money from the English RU as long as they meet the quota of English qualified players in the team. Good news is that many players are dual qualified so even though they could plan to play for Scotland, so long as they also qualify for England, the club gets the RFU funding!
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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by Eejit on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 11:37 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:.Championship is a good level for a number of Scot's players who are not getting game time (Glasgow) or who should be developed before being put in ahead of their time (Edinburgh).

The important part of this that SRU didn't quite grasp this season is how tough a league the championship is, and it's only going to get tougher next season.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 1:06 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
2 mins 35 in ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqLV_IsuTLE


We couldn't possibly have a player with that kind of confidence with ball in hand at Edinburgh Pete, it just isn't the done thing. I mean, look at this for another example from the same player (Lionel Cronje) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUkNYscZ6i4

In that same position Duncan Weir would've very slowly gone for a clearing kick, been charged down and given away a try. We know what to expect from that situation, bring in a maverick like Cronje and we wouldn't know what was going on. It may lead to some noise being generated in Myreside, and Edinburgh fans being subjected to something which I'm reliable informed is called excitement. It would be anarchy. Best avoided at all costs.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by George Carlin on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 1:12 pm

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
2 mins 35 in ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqLV_IsuTLE


We couldn't possibly have a player with that kind of confidence with ball in hand at Edinburgh Pete, it just isn't the done thing. I mean, look at this for another example from the same player (Lionel Cronje) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUkNYscZ6i4

In that same position Duncan Weir would've very slowly gone for a clearing kick, been charged down and given away a try. We know what to expect from that situation, bring in a maverick like Cronje and we wouldn't know what was going on. It may lead to some noise being generated in Myreside, and Edinburgh fans being subjected to something which I'm reliable informed is called excitement. It would be anarchy. Best avoided at all costs.
Easy solution - bring in Matawalu (who probably fancies a trip to (50 miles from) his spiritual home) and Cronje.

Then watch Hodge suck any joy and talent from them, like a Dumfries Ability Dementor.
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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 1:27 pm

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
2 mins 35 in ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqLV_IsuTLE


We couldn't possibly have a player with that kind of confidence with ball in hand at Edinburgh Pete, it just isn't the done thing. I mean, look at this for another example from the same player (Lionel Cronje) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUkNYscZ6i4

In that same position Duncan Weir would've very slowly gone for a clearing kick, been charged down and given away a try. We know what to expect from that situation, bring in a maverick like Cronje and we wouldn't know what was going on. It may lead to some noise being generated in Myreside, and Edinburgh fans being subjected to something which I'm reliable informed is called excitement. It would be anarchy. Best avoided at all costs.

That guy looks good, and with a name like Lionel Cronje he must have Scottish roots...

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by Hazel Sapling on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 2:21 pm

Lionel Cronje would be interesting at Edinburgh. Francois Venter (an inside centre/captain for the Cheetahs) may be worth a look even if he is a South African international. Burleigh opens the game up and is a good player but Sarries have shown how effective having a defensive leader in the centres (Barritt) is. Problem is Edinburgh can't just import their problems away. They need to develop players for Scotland.

Eejit, I agree about the SRU not understanding the Championship and I may be off the mark. I want the SRU to use LS a bit like how baseball (and now basketball) in the US use their farm systems.

Senior academy players earn their crust playing for the season there (getting call ups if injuries mount (or in Glasgow's case, internationals)). If a player is injured for a while or in poor form, he plays a couple of games to get his legs back. Certainly this season has shown Djustice, Firth, Grant, Malcolm, MacArthur, both Bryce's, Fusaro, Dean, Kinghorn, Pyrgos, both Horne's, M Fagerson, Smith, Lyle, Tofilau, Tagive and Junior could have spent some (or in a few cases considerable) time down there. What news on coaching changes going on?


Last edited by Hazel Sapling on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Forgot Tofilau)

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by tigertattie on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 4:31 pm

I agree Hazel but you need to remember that Scottish are not officially affiliated with the SRU. They are a stand alone club that operate int he English leagues and the SRU have no control over players or the like!
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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by Eejit on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 4:58 pm

The baseball analogy is one that is particularly appropriate. Generally speaking the thing that sets MLB (and by extension the farm teams and in particular the AAA) apart from other leagues, most notably the Japanese Nippon, is the strength of the pitching. The strike zone is a different size and the ball is smaller in Japan, but generally the main issue is that of power. That issue of being underpowered is something we should be familiar with in a Scottish rugby as a whole, but has been extremely prevalent at LS this year.

I suspect if a handful of those that Hazel mentioned were around to supplement English-qualified talent the Ealing result at the weekend would not have been as bad as it was.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by Nematode on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 5:45 pm

It's going to be tough next season for Edinburgh - Zebre and Treviso seem to be getting their act together and Dragons have signed a few good players who should be there all season (Henson/Kirchner).

From watching the Glasgow Munster game, I wonder if Edinburgh should, at least temporarily (or for next season) narrow the pitch at Myreside?

The Edinburgh backs have been given pretty much the whole season to attack freely and just haven't looked convincing. The pack, though, is half decent and with Cockerill and Nel back next season, it might play into their favour to play more in a Munster way.

I can understand why the SRU might want both teams playing a similar style of rugby, however, Hoyland is no Seymour, Bryce no Hogg and Dean no Dunbar.

I'd rather ser Edinburgh win the AS way than see Edinburgh hammered each week...


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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by Nematode on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 5:48 pm

Also, why do Hoyland, Brown and Dean get so much game time? I thought junior ras and sasa tofilau looked decent early in the season and Scholes and Allen have looked sharp.

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by Hazel Sapling on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 5:49 pm

tigertattie wrote:I agree Hazel but you need to remember that Scottish are not officially affiliated with the SRU. They are a stand alone club that operate int he English leagues and the SRU have no control over players or the like!

Officially, but English clubs are allowed to have dual registered players and the main form of controlling player nationality is financial funding from RFU.

How many Scot's players would qualify for England as well? I qualify for all countries in the UK for example (including Northern Ireland because of prior generations being born on British Army soil) so if Malcolm, G Horne, G Bryce, B Kinghorn, Tofilau, M Smith and Junior (British Army) are all EQ as well, I don't think the RFU could do much.

If the SRU are not providing direct financial aid but players, coaches and medical support, could the RFU refuse funding? If the DOR is Sean Lineen this year and next year, it is Hodge (for example) I think the SRU are indirectly influencing the style of play (admittedly negatively in this case).

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by Hazel Sapling on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 5:51 pm

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/kelly-brown-announces-retirement/

Hopefully a future Scotland coach

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 6:26 pm

Nematode wrote:Also, why do Hoyland, Brown and Dean get so much game time? I thought junior ras and sasa tofilau looked decent early in the season and Scholes and Allen have looked sharp.


Ras has had some bad defensive errors (his positioning is terrible) and has been a disappointing signing

Tofilau looked promising if very raw at the start of the season but I don't think he's been in a squad since around October! He's still a young pup so we'll hopefully see him develop over the summer.

Allan is one of our best backs but keeps losing out to Dean!

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

Post by Hazel Sapling on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 7:14 pm

Wasn't Tofilau on a 1 year deal? Has he got another deal with either Edinburgh or Glasgow?

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Re: Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread 16 - Good Luck, We're All Counting On You

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