NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

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NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Sat 01 Apr 2017, 1:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

NZ are aiming to organise themselves a warm up match ahead of the 1st Lions test, in an effort to avoid being caught out by the AB's now-traditional slow start to the international season.

One plan being mooted is a test vs Samoa - ideally setting up a double header, probably at Albany Stadium on Auckland's North Shore with Tonga vs Wales as the curtain raiser. It'd be a nice wee bonus for any travelling fans not able to get to the Maori vs Lions match in Rotorua


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11829670
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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 4:39 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:People do change their minds. Francis and  moriarty for instance.

When did either declare they wanted to play for England when they grow up? Francis is a Yorkshire man so I can get that but I'm not sure it would have been the case for Moriarty. I think RM represented England to get noticed perhaps and get a pro contract? It makes sense, especially if your schools coach is also the academy coach for Glaws and Eng U20s.

A better example would be Steve Shingler; not sure what that guy was thinking but Andy Robinson was on a cap everybody spree and Shingler answered the call. I wish Wales never capped him at senior level just for that.

No-one escaped from that sorry episode particularly well, although judging by Shingler's career thus far, we didn't miss out on much.

Yeah exactly, and he's pretty lucky to still have a pro contract but then again the regions are littered with average players. It's no wonder why they perform so badly.

Another example might be that former Bath fly-half. I don't remember his name but I think he was another Robinson-victim. Looks like Scotland have put that behind them now as there's a few good backs coming out of Glasgow.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 4:46 pm

Yeah. The overall point proved. Every body does it.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 5:40 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah. The overall point proved. Every body does it.

I an attempt to prove 'everybody does it' you've missed the point entirely. Guess someone was trying to have a cheap shot at Wales again, surprise surprise.
First off there is no huge disparity in the opportunities for Home Union players to start a career at home in rugby. Yes England is the largest and richest but that aside the parallels are few and far between. The only possible parallel could be when players left Union to play pro back in the late 80s.
In the Islands of Fiji/Tonga and Samoa there is a massive disparity in opportunity and we have seen from the likes of posters on here that the patriarchal, paternalistic, and frankly patronising attitude of some in NZ is that they are 'nurturing' talent amongst the greatest spring of rugby talent in the world. But, and this is the exploitation, not so it can return home to a burgeoning rugby nation, oh no. So that it can represent the nation which has exploited it like some colonial gold or diamond miner.
I dont think any home Union exploits the terrific resources of another in close proximity by cynically recruiting and offering educational scholarships to the sons of another country -who have already represented that country at some level - and then turn them into nice shiny new All Blacks.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by miaow on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 7:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Suppose it depends on if they want the easier pathway.

I'd have thought it depends on whether Hartpury College keep scouting Welsh shoolchildren or not, but there we go.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 7:42 pm

No cheap shots at all. Look at history. You're suggesting that people shot move between countries for jobs or opportunities. It will and should always happen.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 7:44 pm

I don't think that will influence either of their decisions tbh

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 7:46 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No cheap shots at all. Look at history. You're suggesting that people shot move between countries for jobs or opportunities.  It will and should always happen.

You PR for the NZRFU? laughing

We all know what they've been doing for years.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 7:50 pm

No just simply pouting out the same thing is the world over.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 7:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No just simply pouting out the same thing is the world over.
No it patently isn't

No other country is or has perpetually benefitted from the resources of totally underdeveloped Unions with perhaps the greatest pool of talent in the world to the extent of NZ.




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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by kingelderfield on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 11:28 pm

So like I say, a 5 year residency will not on its own provide the desired effect. Therefore world rugby under the umbrella of sansar/super duper & the rugby championship need to re-evaluate to include the Island nations.....


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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 07 Apr 2017, 11:40 pm

Have nz benefitted over anyone else? I'm prepared to be proved wrong over last 25 years but I don't think I will be.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by kingelderfield on Sat 08 Apr 2017, 6:20 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Have nz benefitted over anyone else? I'm prepared to be proved wrong over last 25 years but I don't think I will be.

That's a really interesting question and I'd love to see a detailed analysis of the 'facts'.

Ofcourse simple initial observation says yes they have, over and above anyone else, but without detailed comparison the jury remains out.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by aucklandlaurie on Sat 08 Apr 2017, 9:11 am

kingelderfield wrote:If ever Billy B returns the infinite improbability drive and 'world rugby' moves to a 5 year residency sanction......they'll be more Fijians playing in the nrl.

In this epoch of disunion is it not time to reconstitute sanzar to include the pacific nations?

Lets be honest rsa and oz would lose as many times as they would win in Suva, Apia or Nukuʻalofa, if thats where the games were played.

 Just so happens that the Blue v Reds game on 2 June is being played in Apia.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by kingelderfield on Sat 08 Apr 2017, 8:34 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
kingelderfield wrote:If ever Billy B returns the infinite improbability drive and 'world rugby' moves to a 5 year residency sanction......they'll be more Fijians playing in the nrl.

In this epoch of disunion is it not time to reconstitute sanzar to include the pacific nations?

Lets be honest rsa and oz would lose as many times as they would win in Suva, Apia or Nukuʻalofa, if thats where the games were played.

 Just so happens that the Blue v Reds game on 2 June is being played in Apia.

Yes yes but Zaphod wants his drive back!

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Taylorman on Sun 09 Apr 2017, 2:36 am

Gwlad wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Oh, Wesley College must be lying then

 Ever thought that maybe you're source isnt very good?

NZ's education system being super generous to Pacific Islander boys who just happen to be great rugby players, how very philanthropic of them.  thumbsup

I wonder how many guys they bring over who aren't potential rugby stars?

How many? About 160,000 in total but as hard as we tried, especially the babies, who trialled terribly, most just went on to non rugby things like you know, nursing, office work, teaching, law and medicine, police work, bus and taxi drivers. Amazing number of rugby failures in the group I must admit.

How many Pacific Islanders in Wales are there for non rugby reasons?

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Taylorman on Sun 09 Apr 2017, 2:42 am

Gwlad wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:No just simply pouting out the same thing is the world over.
No it patently isn't

No other country is or has perpetually benefitted from the resources of totally underdeveloped Unions with perhaps the greatest pool of talent in the world to the extent of NZ.




Where's your numbers?
More of the Samoan World cup squad were born in NZ than Samoa. How has NZ benefitted more than that? Pretty sure half our squad wasn't born in Samoa.

NZ provided more NZ born players in the World Cup to other countries than any other country.

If anything you should be thanking us Gwlad. But hey... it's on us...

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by kingelderfield on Sun 09 Apr 2017, 6:55 am

I just want to the game seriously develop internationally and that mean more real games played by t1 away against the pacific island nations.
The next WC may help development but the lions needs to end. Its holding back change and with sanzar struggling change is gonna come.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 09 Apr 2017, 8:39 am

With the loss in money from the lions some teams would be looking to play less against those nations rather than more.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 09 Apr 2017, 10:29 am

Taylorman wrote:
Where's your numbers?
More of the Samoan World cup squad were born in NZ than Samoa. How has NZ benefitted more than that? Pretty sure half our squad wasn't born in Samoa.

NZ provided more NZ born players in the World Cup to other countries than any other country.

If anything you should be thanking us Gwlad. But hey... it's on us...

The majority being Samoans born in New Zealand as opposed to New Zealanders born in New Zealand.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by ebop on Sun 09 Apr 2017, 10:41 am

Born in New Zealand, ummm, that'd make them New Zealanders. Some of you people need to get out more. Anthony Joshua and Daley Thompson are Nigerian right?
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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by aucklandlaurie on Sun 09 Apr 2017, 3:34 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:No just simply pouting out the same thing is the world over.
No it patently isn't

No other country is or has perpetually benefitted from the resources of totally underdeveloped Unions with perhaps the greatest pool of talent in the world to the extent of NZ.




Where's your numbers?
More of the Samoan World cup squad were born in NZ than Samoa. How has NZ benefitted more than that? Pretty sure half our squad wasn't born in Samoa.

NZ provided more NZ born players in the World Cup to other countries than any other country.

If anything you should be thanking us Gwlad. But hey... it's on us...

 New Zealanders also coached more teams at the World cup.

 This discussion is one of those situations where Gwlad is looking for the reasons as to why the All Blacks have so much more success than other teams, and to him the only obvious answer can be the players skin colour. what Gwlad needs to take into consideration is the development of players from early childhood and throughout the Rugby education that occurs in New Zealand, how we are taught to have total belief in our skills and the many other parts to New Zealand rugby that doesnt occur elsewhere. the longer others think that New Zealands success is derived on the back of the number of Polynesians playing the game here, then the longer into the future the All Blacks will reign as the top team in the World.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Sun 09 Apr 2017, 5:06 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:No just simply pouting out the same thing is the world over.
No it patently isn't

No other country is or has perpetually benefitted from the resources of totally underdeveloped Unions with perhaps the greatest pool of talent in the world to the extent of NZ.




Where's your numbers?
More of the Samoan World cup squad were born in NZ than Samoa. How has NZ benefitted more than that? Pretty sure half our squad wasn't born in Samoa.

NZ provided more NZ born players in the World Cup to other countries than any other country.

If anything you should be thanking us Gwlad. But hey... it's on us...

 New Zealanders also coached more teams at the World cup.

 This discussion is one of those situations where Gwlad is looking for the reasons as to why the All Blacks have so much more success than other teams, and to him the only obvious answer can be the players skin colour. what Gwlad needs to take into consideration is the importing and nurturing of players from early childhood from Polynesia and throughout the Rugby education that occurs in New Zealand, how we are taught to have total belief in our skills and the many other parts to New Zealand rugby that doesnt occur elsewhere because we are next to the Polynesian nations. the longer others think that New Zealands success is derived on the back of the number of Polynesians playing the game here, then the longer into the future the All Blacks will continue to nurture Polynesians for their top team in the World.

Fixed thumbsup

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by aucklandlaurie on Sun 09 Apr 2017, 5:50 pm

Really Gwlad? Is that all youve got?

 Anyway its probably a good thing, as I dont really want to chat to you anymore.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Sun 09 Apr 2017, 6:43 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:Really Gwlad? Is that all youve got?

 Anyway its probably a good thing, as I dont really want to chat to you anymore.

I'm sorry you don't want to nurture this conversation anymore. Bereft in fact. Crying or Very sad broken

But i do find it odd when posters take themselves sooooo seriously that they tell you they dont want to continue the thread, i mean, am i bothered? Just stop posting.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Taylorman on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 1:11 am

Gwlad wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:Really Gwlad? Is that all youve got?

 Anyway its probably a good thing, as I dont really want to chat to you anymore.

I'm sorry you don't want to nurture this conversation anymore. Bereft in fact. Crying or Very sad broken

But i do find it odd when posters take themselves sooooo seriously that they tell you they dont want to continue the thread, i mean, am i bothered? Just stop posting.

Yeah, I'd say you're not bothered, not bothered to back up your statements. Not about being serious, it's about credibility, and sorry pal, you don't have it.

You're now suggesting New Sealanders born in NZ are being poached? Or that supplying the Islands test ready players from completely within the system is a bad thing, and not contributing to Islands rugby. Without NZ rugby those sides would never have been as successful as they were.

We do our bit alright. How about you do yours since youre such a caring soul.

Until then, just dream of 1953. laughing

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Taylorman on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 1:18 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Where's your numbers?
More of the Samoan World cup squad were born in NZ than Samoa. How has NZ benefitted more than that? Pretty sure half our squad wasn't born in Samoa.

NZ provided more NZ born players in the World Cup to other countries than any other country.

If anything you should be thanking us Gwlad. But hey... it's on us...

The majority being Samoans born in New Zealand as opposed to New Zealanders born in New Zealand.

There's a difference is there? Odd, I thought you are where you're born. Is a non Welshman born in Wales not Welsh? Interesting, that should have been made clearer then. We obviously have different rules.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by emack2 on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 1:41 am

Since 1903 NZ has fielded perhaps 40 players,not born in or of NZ parents
The hoary old cliché of NZ poaching PI`s is false ,most have dual qualifications.
In the old days it was common to represent two countries,and when NZ
suggested.Ex AllBlacks be recycled to the PI`s it was rejected by the NH
majority vote.
In amateur days SA and NZ played Australia as part of tours abroad,and
a couple in Canada to promote.
Talk of equality was it Fiji or Tonga were paid £900 a man versus England
at £22,000 a man.Don`t know payments for other countries but bet its
more than £900.
Nz have supported Fiji sides in the 1950`s,and Samoa most players are
Nz born.
The support of tier2 sides is supported by the IRB providing Coaches in
RWC.
Do the NH want to play Georgia or Romania not unworthy sides away?
truth be told Tonga playing NZ is probably.
Worth more to them with tv rights etc,than in Tonga,BUT I agree ALL
sides should schedule away matches to these sides. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Taylorman on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 8:07 am

emack2 wrote:Since 1903 NZ has fielded perhaps 40 players,not born in or of NZ parents
The hoary old cliché of NZ poaching PI`s is false ,most have dual qualifications.
In the old days it was common to represent two countries,and when NZ
suggested.Ex AllBlacks be recycled to the PI`s it was rejected by the NH
majority vote.
In amateur days SA and NZ played Australia as part of tours abroad,and
a couple in Canada to promote.
Talk of equality was it Fiji or Tonga were paid £900 a man versus England
at £22,000 a man.Don`t know payments for other countries but bet its
more than £900.
Nz have supported Fiji sides in the 1950`s,and Samoa most players are
Nz born.
The support of tier2 sides is supported by the IRB providing Coaches in
RWC.
Do the NH want to play Georgia or Romania not unworthy sides away?
truth be told Tonga playing NZ is probably.
Worth more to them with tv rights etc,than in Tonga,BUT I agree ALL
sides should schedule away matches to these sides. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Yes Alan we get the same old droll argument about poaching from know it alls all the time when the reality is actually the reverse. NZ's propping up rugby all over the world from a player and coaching perspective but the myth continues. It's called the McCaws offside defence. Poor opening, muddled middle game, even worse end game

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 4:07 pm

Taylorman wrote:
emack2 wrote:Since 1903 NZ has fielded perhaps 40 players,not born in or of NZ parents
The hoary old cliché of NZ poaching PI`s is false ,most have dual qualifications.
In the old days it was common to represent two countries,and when NZ
suggested.Ex AllBlacks be recycled to the PI`s it was rejected by the NH
majority vote.
In amateur days SA and NZ played Australia as part of tours abroad,and
a couple in Canada to promote.
Talk of equality was it Fiji or Tonga were paid £900 a man versus England
at £22,000 a man.Don`t know payments for other countries but bet its
more than £900.
Nz have supported Fiji sides in the 1950`s,and Samoa most players are
Nz born.
The support of tier2 sides is supported by the IRB providing Coaches in
RWC.
Do the NH want to play Georgia or Romania not unworthy sides away?
truth be told Tonga playing NZ is probably.
Worth more to them with tv rights etc,than in Tonga,BUT I agree ALL
sides should schedule away matches to these sides. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Yes Alan we get the same old droll argument about poaching from know it alls all the time when the reality is actually the reverse. NZ's propping up rugby all over the world from a player and coaching perspective but the myth continues. It's called the McCaws offside defence. Poor opening, muddled middle game, even worse end game

Propping up world rugby? Shocked

Surprised to hear such arrogance from a Kiwi Yahoo

Propping up everyone except the Polynesians that is. thumbsup

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Taylorman on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 6:25 pm

Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
emack2 wrote:Since 1903 NZ has fielded perhaps 40 players,not born in or of NZ parents
The hoary old cliché of NZ poaching PI`s is false ,most have dual qualifications.
In the old days it was common to represent two countries,and when NZ
suggested.Ex AllBlacks be recycled to the PI`s it was rejected by the NH
majority vote.
In amateur days SA and NZ played Australia as part of tours abroad,and
a couple in Canada to promote.
Talk of equality was it Fiji or Tonga were paid £900 a man versus England
at £22,000 a man.Don`t know payments for other countries but bet its
more than £900.
Nz have supported Fiji sides in the 1950`s,and Samoa most players are
Nz born.
The support of tier2 sides is supported by the IRB providing Coaches in
RWC.
Do the NH want to play Georgia or Romania not unworthy sides away?
truth be told Tonga playing NZ is probably.
Worth more to them with tv rights etc,than in Tonga,BUT I agree ALL
sides should schedule away matches to these sides. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Yes Alan we get the same old droll argument about poaching from know it alls all the time when the reality is actually the reverse. NZ's propping up rugby all over the world from a player and coaching perspective but the myth continues. It's called the McCaws offside defence. Poor opening, muddled middle game, even worse end game

Propping up world rugby? Shocked

Surprised to hear such arrogance from a Kiwi Yahoo

Propping up everyone except the Polynesians that is. thumbsup

So when half the Samoan team is both born, raised and taught their rugby in NZ what would you call it?

Without NZ Samoa wouldn't have been able to embarrass Wales in the World Cup when it did.

It's not arrogance, it's correcting ignorance of the facts. Who's supplied Wales with a steady flow of coaches over the years? So yeah, propping up is a good description, not that you'll ever see it. Mind you, you've had the two most successful coaches of all time and even managed to make a meal of both. We had to retrain them as well.

Last from me on it anyway. You've no idea. But hey, we'll keep sending you players and coaches. What have Wales ever done for NZ rugby. Yeah..zip. Yet you continue to chew the hand that feeds you.

No worries Gwlad.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 6:29 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
emack2 wrote:Since 1903 NZ has fielded perhaps 40 players,not born in or of NZ parents
The hoary old cliché of NZ poaching PI`s is false ,most have dual qualifications.
In the old days it was common to represent two countries,and when NZ
suggested.Ex AllBlacks be recycled to the PI`s it was rejected by the NH
majority vote.
In amateur days SA and NZ played Australia as part of tours abroad,and
a couple in Canada to promote.
Talk of equality was it Fiji or Tonga were paid £900 a man versus England
at £22,000 a man.Don`t know payments for other countries but bet its
more than £900.
Nz have supported Fiji sides in the 1950`s,and Samoa most players are
Nz born.
The support of tier2 sides is supported by the IRB providing Coaches in
RWC.
Do the NH want to play Georgia or Romania not unworthy sides away?
truth be told Tonga playing NZ is probably.
Worth more to them with tv rights etc,than in Tonga,BUT I agree ALL
sides should schedule away matches to these sides. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Yes Alan we get the same old droll argument about poaching from know it alls all the time when the reality is actually the reverse. NZ's propping up rugby all over the world from a player and coaching perspective but the myth continues. It's called the McCaws offside defence. Poor opening, muddled middle game, even worse end game

Propping up world rugby? Shocked

Surprised to hear such arrogance from a Kiwi Yahoo

Propping up everyone except the Polynesians that is. thumbsup

So when half the Samoan team is both born, raised and taught their rugby in NZ what would you call it?

Without NZ Samoa wouldn't have been able to embarrass Wales in the World Cup when it did.

It's not arrogance, it's correcting ignorance of the facts. Who's supplied Wales with a steady flow of coaches over the years? So yeah, propping up is a good description, not that you'll ever see it. Mind you, you've had the two most successful coaches of all time and even managed to make a meal of both. We had to retrain them as well.

Last from me on it anyway. You've no idea. But hey, we'll keep sending you players and coaches. What have Wales ever done for NZ rugby. Yeah..zip. Yet you continue to chew the hand that feeds you.

No worries Gwlad.

We've trained up your new coach, hopefully he'll bring some humility to your perpetually arrogant fan base of which you are a perfect example

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Taylorman on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 6:49 pm

Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
emack2 wrote:Since 1903 NZ has fielded perhaps 40 players,not born in or of NZ parents
The hoary old cliché of NZ poaching PI`s is false ,most have dual qualifications.
In the old days it was common to represent two countries,and when NZ
suggested.Ex AllBlacks be recycled to the PI`s it was rejected by the NH
majority vote.
In amateur days SA and NZ played Australia as part of tours abroad,and
a couple in Canada to promote.
Talk of equality was it Fiji or Tonga were paid £900 a man versus England
at £22,000 a man.Don`t know payments for other countries but bet its
more than £900.
Nz have supported Fiji sides in the 1950`s,and Samoa most players are
Nz born.
The support of tier2 sides is supported by the IRB providing Coaches in
RWC.
Do the NH want to play Georgia or Romania not unworthy sides away?
truth be told Tonga playing NZ is probably.
Worth more to them with tv rights etc,than in Tonga,BUT I agree ALL
sides should schedule away matches to these sides. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Yes Alan we get the same old droll argument about poaching from know it alls all the time when the reality is actually the reverse. NZ's propping up rugby all over the world from a player and coaching perspective but the myth continues. It's called the McCaws offside defence. Poor opening, muddled middle game, even worse end game

Propping up world rugby? Shocked

Surprised to hear such arrogance from a Kiwi Yahoo

Propping up everyone except the Polynesians that is. thumbsup

So when half the Samoan team is both born, raised and taught their rugby in NZ what would you call it?

Without NZ Samoa wouldn't have been able to embarrass Wales in the World Cup when it did.

It's not arrogance, it's correcting ignorance of the facts. Who's supplied Wales with a steady flow of coaches over the years? So yeah, propping up is a good description, not that you'll ever see it. Mind you, you've had the two most successful coaches of all time and even managed to make a meal of both. We had to retrain them as well.

Last from me on it anyway. You've no idea. But hey, we'll keep sending you players and coaches. What have Wales ever done for NZ rugby. Yeah..zip. Yet you continue to chew the hand that feeds you.

No worries Gwlad.

We've trained up your new coach, hopefully he'll bring some humility to your perpetually arrogant fan base of which you are a perfect example

No chance, he's picked up too many bad habits and has been out of touch with the real game far too long. Anyway, playing the humility card is usually a sign of resignation. Next time perhaps do your homework. Ciao.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 6:55 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
emack2 wrote:Since 1903 NZ has fielded perhaps 40 players,not born in or of NZ parents
The hoary old cliché of NZ poaching PI`s is false ,most have dual qualifications.
In the old days it was common to represent two countries,and when NZ
suggested.Ex AllBlacks be recycled to the PI`s it was rejected by the NH
majority vote.
In amateur days SA and NZ played Australia as part of tours abroad,and
a couple in Canada to promote.
Talk of equality was it Fiji or Tonga were paid £900 a man versus England
at £22,000 a man.Don`t know payments for other countries but bet its
more than £900.
Nz have supported Fiji sides in the 1950`s,and Samoa most players are
Nz born.
The support of tier2 sides is supported by the IRB providing Coaches in
RWC.
Do the NH want to play Georgia or Romania not unworthy sides away?
truth be told Tonga playing NZ is probably.
Worth more to them with tv rights etc,than in Tonga,BUT I agree ALL
sides should schedule away matches to these sides. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Yes Alan we get the same old droll argument about poaching from know it alls all the time when the reality is actually the reverse. NZ's propping up rugby all over the world from a player and coaching perspective but the myth continues. It's called the McCaws offside defence. Poor opening, muddled middle game, even worse end game

Propping up world rugby? Shocked

Surprised to hear such arrogance from a Kiwi Yahoo

Propping up everyone except the Polynesians that is. thumbsup

So when half the Samoan team is both born, raised and taught their rugby in NZ what would you call it?

Without NZ Samoa wouldn't have been able to embarrass Wales in the World Cup when it did.

It's not arrogance, it's correcting ignorance of the facts. Who's supplied Wales with a steady flow of coaches over the years? So yeah, propping up is a good description, not that you'll ever see it. Mind you, you've had the two most successful coaches of all time and even managed to make a meal of both. We had to retrain them as well.

Last from me on it anyway. You've no idea. But hey, we'll keep sending you players and coaches. What have Wales ever done for NZ rugby. Yeah..zip. Yet you continue to chew the hand that feeds you.

No worries Gwlad.

We've trained up your new coach, hopefully he'll bring some humility to your perpetually arrogant fan base of which you are a perfect example

No chance, he's picked up too many bad habits and has been out of touch with the real game far too long. Anyway, playing the humility card is usually a sign of resignation. Next time perhaps do your homework. Ciao.

Most real fans of the game would prefer a perception of humility to sheer arrogance combined with blind ignorance of what they have done to the game; look what you started down there, must make you proud.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/nov/18/pacific-islands-rugby-union-fiji-samoa-tonga


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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 6:59 pm


Gwlad

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 7:09 pm

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10874587

and here - your own press- particularly like this bit:

In setting out their vision for the game through to 2016, the NZRU unveiled its intention to strengthen the game in Auckland and, specifically within that, to find ways to engage the growing Asian population and to do more to harness and acknowledge the city's Pacific Island communities.

Polynesia has been New Zealand's not-so-secret weapon for the last two decades.


These journalists must be making up the problem you guys nurtured right! Now the whole world is doing it but we all know where it began. Had the guardians of that talent treated it humanely and responsibly there wouldn't now be a global problem and as this journalist contends

Polynesia has been NZ's secret weapon for 20 years….without them you'd be nothing.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Taylorman on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 7:53 pm

Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
emack2 wrote:Since 1903 NZ has fielded perhaps 40 players,not born in or of NZ parents
The hoary old cliché of NZ poaching PI`s is false ,most have dual qualifications.
In the old days it was common to represent two countries,and when NZ
suggested.Ex AllBlacks be recycled to the PI`s it was rejected by the NH
majority vote.
In amateur days SA and NZ played Australia as part of tours abroad,and
a couple in Canada to promote.
Talk of equality was it Fiji or Tonga were paid £900 a man versus England
at £22,000 a man.Don`t know payments for other countries but bet its
more than £900.
Nz have supported Fiji sides in the 1950`s,and Samoa most players are
Nz born.
The support of tier2 sides is supported by the IRB providing Coaches in
RWC.
Do the NH want to play Georgia or Romania not unworthy sides away?
truth be told Tonga playing NZ is probably.
Worth more to them with tv rights etc,than in Tonga,BUT I agree ALL
sides should schedule away matches to these sides. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Yes Alan we get the same old droll argument about poaching from know it alls all the time when the reality is actually the reverse. NZ's propping up rugby all over the world from a player and coaching perspective but the myth continues. It's called the McCaws offside defence. Poor opening, muddled middle game, even worse end game

Propping up world rugby? Shocked

Surprised to hear such arrogance from a Kiwi Yahoo

Propping up everyone except the Polynesians that is. thumbsup

So when half the Samoan team is both born, raised and taught their rugby in NZ what would you call it?

Without NZ Samoa wouldn't have been able to embarrass Wales in the World Cup when it did.

It's not arrogance, it's correcting ignorance of the facts. Who's supplied Wales with a steady flow of coaches over the years? So yeah, propping up is a good description, not that you'll ever see it. Mind you, you've had the two most successful coaches of all time and even managed to make a meal of both. We had to retrain them as well.

Last from me on it anyway. You've no idea. But hey, we'll keep sending you players and coaches. What have Wales ever done for NZ rugby. Yeah..zip. Yet you continue to chew the hand that feeds you.

No worries Gwlad.

We've trained up your new coach, hopefully he'll bring some humility to your perpetually arrogant fan base of which you are a perfect example

No chance, he's picked up too many bad habits and has been out of touch with the real game far too long. Anyway, playing the humility card is usually a sign of resignation. Next time perhaps do your homework. Ciao.

Most real fans of the game would prefer a perception of humility to sheer arrogance combined with blind ignorance of what they have done to the game; look what you started down there, must make you proud.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/nov/18/pacific-islands-rugby-union-fiji-samoa-tonga


All I'm seeing there is a complete inability to absorb the cultural differences of these guys in the NH. You neither care nor have any idea of the needs of Polynesians culturally so use them for their rugby and let them out to dry when they don't succeed.

Having grown up in South Auckland I'm well aware of the cultural and ethnic diversities of the growing Polynesian population an genuinely cringe when I think of these guys having to acclimatise to the rituals of the north. Again, no idea. We didn't cause those problems. And it's not limited to Polynesians. Vickermans plight looks similar, it is a pro rugby thing.

Luckily for the NH, they're either not good enough or don't want to be paid the lower salaries to take their game away from home to have these problems.

Once again, you are showing ignorance from a very sheltered position, where you think the rugby world revolves around you.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Taylorman on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 8:22 pm

Gwlad wrote:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10874587

and here - your own press- particularly like this bit:

In setting out their vision for the game through to 2016, the NZRU unveiled its intention to strengthen the game in Auckland and, specifically within that, to find ways to engage the growing Asian population and to do more to harness and acknowledge the city's Pacific Island communities.

Polynesia has been New Zealand's not-so-secret weapon for the last two decades.


These journalists must be making up the problem you guys nurtured right! Now the whole world is doing it but we all know where it began. Had the guardians of that talent treated it humanely and responsibly there wouldn't now be a global problem and as this journalist contends

Polynesia has been NZ's secret weapon for 20 years….without them you'd be nothing.

Yes because prior to 20 years ago NZ rugby was nothing. Yeah right.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 8:58 pm

Hey Taylorman wakey wakey time to remove head from….. Erm

Polynesia has been New Zealand's secret weapon for 20 years

After the precedent you set the whole world is cashing in and because it is destroying lives NZ has suddenly lost its memory

Shameful

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by ebop on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 9:15 pm

New Zealand is Polynesian you moron

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 9:27 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Ah i see the Trump tactic

Fake news eh?  laughing

Did or did not Fekitoa and Sivivatu go to Wesley.

Did or did not both players arrive in this world somewhere outside NZ?

Yes or No?

 I personally dont know the chain of events leading up to Sivivatu going to Wesley.

 Yes Fekitoa went to Wesley, he was already in New Zealand when he sought entry to Wesley and it was at that point he was offered the scholarship.

 I know personally of a number of Polynesian rugby teenagers that were offered secondary school scholarships here in Auckland and they have gone on to perform at international level representing Samoa, Tonga especially.

Best tell your countryman aucklandlaurie and the journalist quoted above who made the distinction, since it was aucklandluarie that introduced that nomenclature, which was also used in the quoted article whereas, being aware that eventually one of you would trot out the 'NZ is part of Polynesia' argument in an attempt to deflect from the real issue that NZ promulgated the biggest exploitation of sporting talent in any sport that i can recall. The facts speak for themselves.

I was avoiding the distinction by referring to the Pacific Islands Samoa, Tonga and Fiji which are very different to New Zealand though in rugby terms the NZRFU has tried to dilute that.

I was expecting the abuse too though not quite so simplistically delivered but i guess simple is your expertise right.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Taylorman on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 9:35 pm

Gwlad wrote:http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10874587

and here - your own press- particularly like this bit:

In setting out their vision for the game through to 2016, the NZRU unveiled its intention to strengthen the game in Auckland and, specifically within that, to find ways to engage the growing Asian population and to do more to harness and acknowledge the city's Pacific Island communities.

Polynesia has been New Zealand's not-so-secret weapon for the last two decades.


These journalists must be making up the problem you guys nurtured right! Now the whole world is doing it but we all know where it began. Had the guardians of that talent treated it humanely and responsibly there wouldn't now be a global problem and as this journalist contends

Polynesia has been NZ's secret weapon for 20 years….without them you'd be nothing.

That is a long way from poaching. And if they are embracing the Asian community thats because thats what any good country would do. Involve their residents in the country's sport of choice. What do you suggest we do? Ignore them so we dont get idiots like you complaining of poaching?

they moved here as the Pacific Islanders did as a country of choice to live in.

Believe me, Samoans do not move to Wales or England for that reason. They get bought of the shelf. We don't buy our players, we create them.

And if you want to refer back to the poaching off the Islands argument then do so, as that is your only valid argument and the numbers around it are small, and are nothing compared to the input we have into the rugby of other countries- including yours.

Now tell me what has Wales done for NZ rugby again? Nothing. Yet here you are, spouting off about what we can do for the Island nations.

Go back to school, boyo, youre out of your league with this one.

And I lived the Pacific Island migration into NZ through the 60's to now, had and still have friends born here who's fathers and mothers migrated here. I have close Tongan, Samoan, Cook Island, Niuean, and Fijian friends from school, sport, and not just rugby, work, and in various social circles. My partner is Rarotongan so I'm well aware of the life that Pacific Islanders lead in NZ, and of both the struggles they face and triumphs they have in todays society.

Im very familiar with the take up of rugby and the change that particularly South Auckland rugby went through in the 80's and 90's.

And I can certainly empathise with the thought of a rugby player leaving his extended family for the money in the NH and the sheer internal struggle they will have with that descision, and with coping with day to day life without the support of their own community, something that is VERY strong in Pacific island peoples.

Yet you think you know it all. You pick up a couple of web links and think you know the story.

Do you even know a pacific islander? have you ever met one?

Probably not. Yet here we have Mr expert telling us how it is.


Last edited by Taylorman on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:00 pm

Oh he's back for more having said he was done

So island poaching it is now then, not 'nurturing' laughing Great 180 there.

Wales has no obligation to do anything for NZ rugby. NZ rugby hasn't done anything for us? More arrogance from you guys as if you are some how much more important than the rest of us. Well i suppose in the sense that you have used your geographical position and $$ i guess you are, but not in any other way.

Anyway NZ rugby is in fine fettle thanks to the players from Fiji, Tonga and Samoa. Has been for 20 years!! It was the NZRFU plan until 2016 as they probably knew they'd set up a nice market to move the meat with their educational scholarships at wesley etc until, damn it, everyone else would want some so got busy cashing in.

Now they - and you - plead ignorance of the whole sorry episode.

Remove your head from #$%^

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:38 pm

We all know how it is, it's well documented. Secrets out i'm afraid yet your desperate to re write it to make it look better when really NZ should hold their hands up and admit what they did was wrong. Smacks of poor sportsmanship at best, another very Kiwi trait.


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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Taylorman on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 10:55 pm

Gwlad wrote:We all know how it is, it's well documented. Secrets out i'm afraid yet your desperate to re write it to make it look better when really NZ should hold their hands up and admit what they did was wrong. Smacks of poor sportsmanship at best, another very Kiwi trait.


Yeah, you go on believing that Mr Expert.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 11:02 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:We all know how it is, it's well documented. Secrets out i'm afraid yet your desperate to re write it to make it look better when really NZ should hold their hands up and admit what they did was wrong. Smacks of poor sportsmanship at best, another very Kiwi trait.


Yeah, you go on believing that Mr Expert.

kiss

Don't worry so much, now we're all doing it. Its just you guys started it and now its been seen for what it is NZ just wants to forget the history they created. I get it, I wouldn't want to be part of it.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Taylorman on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 12:00 am

Yeah well regardless of all that that other article is disturbing if the position of rugby players heading that way is to deteriorate that badly for some. Shows what sort of support they're getting in places.

I feel for them knowing what they're leaving behind.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gwlad on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 4:38 am

Modern gladiators, nothing more nothing less. Pieces of meat that professional business uses and abuses. Sad but true in this era i'm afraid. Pro sport is a massive con in the sense that while as fans we esteem it with qualities of passion and loyalty while ultimately it is nothing more than a money making exercise with some drama and theatre thrown in, and the players, well they are are merely commodities with a short shelf life.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 8:44 am

Taylorman wrote:

Do you even know a pacific islander? have you ever met one?

Probably not. Yet here we have Mr expert telling us how it is.

Sat with the Tullagi family at one Tigers game. Theres usually a fair contingent of them there, although only the tip of the iceberg of the exntended famil that settled in the county now. They seem to be reasonably happy and content with the opportunities rugby gave when Freddie snr came over. Freddie Jnr is now playing, as did his brother Brian (now at Saracens).

Meanwhile George Ford cant cope being at Bath without his dad so is emirgrating back home.

I guess the point is everyones story is individual and unique to them.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Cyril on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 8:46 am

Gooseberry wrote:I guess the point is everyones story is individual and unique to them.
That's certainly true of Gwlad.

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Re: NZ trying to get pre-Lions warm up vs Samoa

Post by Griff on Tue 11 Apr 2017, 9:04 am

Gooseberry wrote:
Taylorman wrote:

Do you even know a pacific islander? have you ever met one?

Probably not. Yet here we have Mr expert telling us how it is.

Sat with the Tullagi family at one Tigers game. Theres usually a fair contingent of them there, although only the tip of the iceberg of the exntended famil that settled in the county now. They seem to be reasonably happy and content with the opportunities rugby gave when Freddie snr came over.  Freddie Jnr is now playing, as did his brother Brian (now at Saracens).

Meanwhile George Ford cant cope being at Bath without his dad so is emirgrating back home.

I guess the point is everyones story is individual and unique to them.

While I don't agree with Gwlad's comments and think he's generally on the wind up (sorry Gwlad!), I do often get the sense that NZ fans think no-one in the world apart from them knows, interacts with or understands people from the non-NZ pacific islands such as Samoa, Tonga , Fiji, etc. They call us ignorant but are perhaps themselves ignorant to the fact that there are whole communities of Pacific Island families living in Wales. Big in the church, big in the community, etc. My daughter has friends in school of Pacific Island heritage, but who were born here to PI parents. A number of families came over in the 70's, 80's and 90's to play rugby when it was still amateur. So no money for rugby (or not much), they weren't 'poached' as such, but came over to play rugby and then secure employment in local businesses and ended up settling down to raise families. The famous examples are the Vunipolas and Faletaus, but there are many more who played only semi-pro or lower league rugby. Fe'ao Vunipola went on to become a quantity surveyor and a few friends have worked with him in the South Wales area, so it's not all about exploiting them as pieces of meat. They often stay to pursue qualifications, careers, etc. which is great.

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