TV viewers influence on the game

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TV viewers influence on the game

Post by AlciG on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 8:54 am

Is it just me that feels its really bad for the game of golf what happened to Lexi Thompson.
Yes she may have made a mistake (as pointed out by a TV VIEWER) but a 4 stroke penalty causing her to lose out is really harsh.

If something gets spotted by an official on TV images I'm fine with it as long as they watch images of every shot by every player in the tournament,
but I'm really not OK with TV viewers pointing anything out and causing penalties as they only see a very small part of the shots played and thus have a undue influence.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by I'm never wrong on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 9:08 am

A couple of things come to my mind re this. I'm with beninho in his post on the weekly thread, that players should putt out when left with short putts. But against that, is the mantra that if you have just had a disastrous number of shots leading up to that point, you should mark and take time to "regroup". I disagree - putt out. Secondly, in a way, she was lucky. Previously she would have been disqualified. Now she "only" got a two stroke penalty. Thirdly, and to my mind, what should happen is this:- Once all the players from a competition such as this have completed their rounds, add an hour. After that the scores stand. Whatever. Otherwise how far back do you go? This might let someone get away with a rules infraction, but deal with it outside the competition. suspend them. Make it public as well.
No easy answer I know......

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by AlciG on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 9:16 am

She 'only' got a 2 stroke penalty for the infringement and another 2 for signing an incorrect card.

But I'm not against the penalty but against TV viewers being the reason for it because we only see a slight portion of the shots played.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 9:35 am

It sucks. Big time. I'm not even bothered if she did infringe the rules (unless there's suspicion of deliberate malpractice). By far the best player over all four days and she's been screwed over by some smug armchair bumhole.
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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by super_realist on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 9:40 am

Although Thomson ought to have known the rules or at least checked with an official. I think the fact she got a retrospective penalty is poor.

If the card is signed, and it's gone through the official system, that should be it.


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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by Davie on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 9:49 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee8vQ2DSkY4

Mixed feelings about this - until I saw the video above I assumed she marked her ball while someone else played, then came back to it - but it appears that she just marked, and then immediately replaced it - in the wrong spot (possibly avoiding a blemish on the green?)

I will say I think it's pretty bad to be assessed for the penalty so the following day - maybe as INW says above a time limit on retrospective penalties should apply. Also it seems like she is being punished twice (one for the incorrect placement and then again for signing an incorrect card; surely at the time she signed the card it WAS correct as the penalty was only applied later?

Looks fairly damning on the video evidence though

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by pedro on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 10:00 am

It's a disgrace. 4 shots?

What if viewers called in after the 1966 World Cup final?

My suggestions (in addition to above)

1) Don't allow viewers calling in

2) Limit marking of the ball to once per green. (Unless the course is wet / you play preferred lies). The never ending remarking and alignment seems OTT and slows down play anyway.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by beninho on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 10:05 am

Its all so ridiculous. From what I saw this morning, she missed a long putt, thought about tapping it in, decided against it, for whatever reason and then marked it and put the ball back in a few seconds.

It was either just an honest mistake, she wasn't really paying attention, and it didn't really have an impact as the ball is not closer to the hole.

or there was something on the line which she wanted to miss, the thing with this is that she barely moved the ball anyway so something would likely have still been on her line.

It still think she should have tapped in, and everyone should, within reason considering your point INW.

But its not fair on her, just because she is leading she gets more coverage, but surely everyone playing should be under the same scrutiny and they are not so in fairness, if not called by the officials or her other players then they get away with it. If it is something that keeps happening they will get found out sooner or later.

Basically she got screwed over, its obviously her own fault but it should not have come to this.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by LadyPutt on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 10:36 am

I agree with you INW - they should not be able to carry over a penalty from one day to the next. The round had been completed, score cards checked and signed, results for the day posted - that should stand. No way should someone be given a four shot penalty when they are two-thirds of the way through their next round.

And as for "trial by sad TV viewers", don't get me started ..... furious Having looked at the incident, it's not as if she even gained an advantage. And how can you be penalised for signing for an incorrect score when the penalty has not yet been applied? It was correct when she signed it. WTF!! censored
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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by AlciG on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 10:43 am

LadyPutt wrote:
And as for "trial by sad TV viewers", don't get me started ..... furious

That's what has me peeved also. They need to stop giving penalties based on viewer suggestions or this could/will get out of hand.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by Davie on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 10:48 am

But (playing devil's advocate for a moment) - what if it DOES go unpunished but still shown on TV? As it stands, people will have (some) sympathy for Lexi but it is were to go unpunished would she not run the risk of forever more being known as a cheat? Compare with the Monty incident of a few years ago...

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by beninho on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 10:54 am

Does anyone really think she gained an advantage by what happened? If she was not punished, and the PLGA issued a statement saying we assessed it its minor and we have no reason to think she gained an advantage etc etc. Then I think most right minded people will pretty much agree with that.

The people that continued to call her a cheat based on it, and kept bringing it up, would tend to be a bit daft. But if it brings greater scrutiny of her marking technique and if this happens regularly then something would need to be done.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by AlciG on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 10:58 am

Davie wrote:But (playing devil's advocate for a moment) - what if it DOES go unpunished but still shown on TV? As it stands, people will have (some) sympathy for Lexi but it is were to go unpunished would she not run the risk of forever more being known as a cheat?  Compare with the Monty incident of a few years ago...

For me I think this will hurt the game a golf more then an occasionally shown unpunished offence. If the players/officials miss is so be it.
And really 4 shots penalty does in no way reflect the 'crime'. It should have been 2 strokes IMHO anyway. She did not knowingly sign an incorrect card.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by gw on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 11:37 am

Crazy to let TV viewers influence a professional sport, playing partners and the referee should be the ONLY people who can make that call.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by McLaren on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 11:50 am

navyblueshorts wrote:It sucks. Big time. I'm not even bothered if she did infringe the rules (unless there's suspicion of deliberate malpractice). By far the best player over all four days and she's been screwed over by some smug armchair bumhole.

Spot on.


And I agree with the point made about there being a cut of for applying retrospective penalties. Even if that cut off is when the first tee shot of the next round is hit.


here was the response of one of the rules officials

"What's my choice?" she said. "A violation in the rules and then it would be the opposite story: Oh, they knew, why didn't they do anything about it.

"I can't go to bed tonight knowing that I let a rule slide. You know, it's a hard thing to do, and it made me sick to be honest with you."



I know most of you don't really like Tiger but his tweet about the situation sums up what I think most of us feel.

@TigerWoods wrote: Viewers at home should not be officials wearing stripes. Let's go @Lexi, win this thing anyway.

I know she didn't go on to win it but I bet most fans hoped she would win the play off.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by McLaren on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 1:10 pm

Davie

You posted the video above and mentioned on Kwini's thread we have not addressed the actual incident. I have yet to see a video which shows her marking and replacing the ball in real time. In slow mo you can see it, but why was someone at home going back and watching that particular shot in slow mo?

I am not suggesting some odd ball conspiracy but just wondering what made the bumhole watch that point so carefully and then phone in if the authorities and the players on site didn't seem to feel the need to intervene?

How many markings and replacing would fail if we watched them all in slow mo?
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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by pedro on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 1:17 pm

AlciG wrote:
Davie wrote:But (playing devil's advocate for a moment) - what if it DOES go unpunished but still shown on TV? As it stands, people will have (some) sympathy for Lexi but it is were to go unpunished would she not run the risk of forever more being known as a cheat?  Compare with the Monty incident of a few years ago...

For me I think this will hurt the game a golf more then an occasionally shown unpunished offence. If the players/officials miss is so be it.
And really 4 shots penalty does in no way reflect the 'crime'. It should have been 2 strokes IMHO anyway. She did not knowingly sign an incorrect card.
Agree Alci. Look at football and the number of monumental refereeing mistakes and player cheats we've seen over the years. Yes the game has been hurt, and video should be used more, but the game would've been hurt more if you could alter the score after the game or viewers could call in about offsides, balls crossing the line etc.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by McLaren on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 1:21 pm

I have mentioned it before but there is nothing worse in terms of sport ending up in farce than seeing an F1 podium ceremony being carried out when everyone knows the stewards are going to have a look at the final result. Golf has strayed into this in recent times by listening to the at home referees.
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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by MontysMerkin on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 1:25 pm

Could be a new stat. Yards gained marking. Top of the field - Monty!
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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by pedro on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 1:37 pm

MontysMerkin wrote:Could be a new stat. Yards gained marking. Top of the field - Monty!
A few tips on that from Leslie Nielsen (watch first 2 minutes)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GxFeUJEJlb8

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by super_realist on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 2:23 pm

McLaren wrote:I have mentioned it before but there is nothing worse in terms of sport than seeing F1

Fixed it for you Mac.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 5:15 pm

pedro wrote:
MontysMerkin wrote:Could be a new stat. Yards gained marking. Top of the field - Monty!
A few tips on that from Leslie Nielsen (watch first 2 minutes)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GxFeUJEJlb8
Ahh, and to think he started out as a straight actor. I like the quote about "No putt ever got longer as a result of being marked"...
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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by twoeightnine on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 5:31 pm

Its a tough one. Everyone agreed that she broke the rules but the way that its dealt with is the problem. Also she hardly moved the ball but then when you let judgement get in there you will start to find some getting more leeway than others.

Look at time taken to play. The only player docked a shot was some amateur from China. Hardly Jason 'takes all' Day.

I think that the only way round this is to have a time limit something like the 9pm on the day and the opportunity to change your card. But how would that work if it was the 72nd hole?

I'm not a fan of TV juries but imagine it being the other way and something was seen and not penalised a la Monty.

Finally, while she didn't gain a distance advantage the ball could have come to rest in an old pitch mark or just behind a spike mark and the move allowed her to avoid it. I know that its another argument about spike marks but its what we have now.


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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by dynamark on Mon 03 Apr 2017, 8:40 pm

Seen the slow mo and can only assume she wanted to line up some markings on the ball with line of putt as many of us do .Seemed to put the ball down a little forward and pull it back a touch.Maybe 10-12 mm out of position at worst.
For sure she will not be doing it again

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by George1507 on Tue 04 Apr 2017, 9:09 am

Lexi marked it because she was closer than her playing partner. It wasn't Lexi's turn. Then her partner realised that she would be treading on the marker and line when she took her putt, so suggested to Lexi that she (Lexi) go first. So Lexi replaced (in the wrong place) and putted out. Yes, there was a rules breach, but I really don't understand how the LPGA can be so stupid as to penalise her retrospectively, and especially as late as a day and half a round afterwards.

As to how and why someone could have spotted it - unless that person had an agenda - I have no idea.

Golf shoots itself in the foot again.


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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by MontysMerkin on Tue 04 Apr 2017, 9:15 am

Rules is rules. Don't cheat. Just ask The Dysonator.
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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by McLaren on Tue 04 Apr 2017, 11:34 am

George1507 wrote:

As to how and why someone could have spotted it - unless that person had an agenda

We know kwini isn't a Lexi fan. Whistle
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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by puligny on Tue 04 Apr 2017, 6:43 pm

Right decision, crazy (even if correct) punishment. I would be in the camp of concluding scores after the round, and not any time during the tournament, and I've added that today to my response to rules changes.
Has everyone filled in the excellent questionnaire on R&A,and I assume USGA, website?

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by SetupDeterminesTheMotion on Wed 05 Apr 2017, 9:09 am

I don't remember Tiger getting a 4 shot penalty, for his infamous drop on 13 @ The Masters.

And he admitted dropping it in the wrong spot, to give himself an advantage.
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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by George1507 on Wed 05 Apr 2017, 9:55 am

SetupDeterminesTheMotion wrote:I don't remember Tiger getting a 4 shot penalty, for his infamous drop on 13 @ The Masters.

And he admitted dropping it in the wrong spot, to give himself an advantage.

He was penalised though, and the Masters committee are the arbiters of their own event. It's the PGA, and now the LPGA who seem to go overboard at least once a season. I thought they both had ruled that they wouldn't listen to armchair referees and more, but I was wrong.

The thing with Tiger's drop was that he thought he could drop it anywhere ABOUT where he did legally. It was only afterwards did he - and most of us - realise what the breach was. I don't have much regard for Tiger, but I don't think he took that drop deliberately to gain an advantage. I'm sure his brain was scrambled at the time, and I can't blame him really. The ball bouncing off the pin into the lake was a tough break, and I'm not sure I'd have had the presence of mind to consider carefully the ramifications.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by George1507 on Sat 08 Apr 2017, 5:44 pm

I'm not an armchair ref, but I noticed Ricky Fowler slogged it into the water over the back of the 15th green yesterday. The coverage I watched didn't explain what he did next,but it showed him chipping from near where the ball crossed the margin of the hazard. Obviously closer to the hole though.

So does anyone know if there's a dropping zone for that eventuality? Otherwise he'd be dropping it on the other side of the lake. I don't know Augusta, so I don't know how far it is across the lake.

Can anyone help?

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by I'm never wrong on Sat 08 Apr 2017, 5:50 pm

Hi George. I don't know either, but the Shoink thingie in the app showed he was the same distance (35 yards) when he played his fourth shot as the result of the third.

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by puligny on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 11:01 am

Must be red lines over the green?

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Re: TV viewers influence on the game

Post by George1507 on Mon 10 Apr 2017, 2:48 pm

Yes, there's a yellow line (I think it was yellow from watching it yesterday).

There must be a dropping zone - it's been going on for years.

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