Ireland Summer tour.

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Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Maine man on Wed 19 Apr 2017, 12:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

So now we know who's off with the Lions, who you like to see tour with Ireland? I was hoping that some of the regular wingers would have went as I'd like to see Byrne and the young Munster winger get a crack this summer. Fingers crossed they still will. My starting XV this summer would be:
Healy, Cronin, Ryan, O'Connor, Ryan, Conan, Van der Flier, Heaslip, Marmion, Jackson, Sweetnam (sp), Olding, Ringrose, Byrne, O'Halloran.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 11:51 am

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
So basically all your points boil down to the players not being good enough to take advantage of the space available,how do you think that the players will fare better with less time and space further up the field?

If you ignore some of my other points, I guess. Otherwise, selection does have a part to play, yes. We do have the players, we just have players out of position or continue to use slow players in the back three. I thought the argument from the Schmidtoids was that those back three players are selected because we don't play an expansive game, but rely on an effective kick-chase and wings who can recycle the ball quickly?

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by asoreleftshoulder on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 11:55 am

It is,again it's not the point I'm making. I am saying that our game has gotten more expansive the longer Schmidt has been in charge. We aren't where we want to be yet but we're making progress,that's it,everything else is a straw man.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 12:04 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:It is,again it's not the point I'm making. I am saying that our game has gotten more expansive the longer Schmidt has been in charge. We aren't where we want to be yet but we're making progress,that's it,everything else is a straw man.

The point you were originally arguing with was that we do not play with width. That is an argument both me and prof made. I also disagree that we play with more width now than we did at the beginning (when we had BOD). No straw man. At that time we also had a faster and fitter Bowe, Trimble, Kearney etc. And won two Six Nations titles.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by asoreleftshoulder on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 12:31 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
So basically all your points boil down to the players not being good enough to take advantage of the space available,how do you think that the players will fare better with less time and space further up the field?

If you ignore some of my other points, I guess. Otherwise, selection does have a part to play, yes. We do have the players, we just have players out of position or continue to use slow players in the back three. I thought the argument from the Schmidtoids was that those back three players are selected because we don't play an expansive game, but rely on an effective kick-chase and wings who can recycle the ball quickly?

What part does selection have to play,who could we pick that would improve things,Earls and Zeno are our quickest backs but neither of them are very effective at hitting a gap in a tight defence and they aren't that quick by international standards so they rarely beat anyone on the outside either. They are good players and have different strengths but they aren't the answer to the problem you present.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 12:40 pm

I've said it numerous times. Henshaw at 12, where we have turned a dangerous outside back into a battering ram, severely hampers our ability to keep defences guessing. It is obvious what he is going to do. Our back three (how many times have Zebo and Earls played together for Ireland?) is ponderous and old. Usually Kearney, Trimble and another. Of course that will make a difference.

Earls has shown what he can do with just a bit of space. He doesn't get that for Munster or for Ireland.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 12:44 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I've said it numerous times. Henshaw at 12, where we have turned a dangerous outside back into a battering ram, severely hampers our ability to keep defences guessing. It is obvious what he is going to do. Our back three (how many times have Zebo and Earls played together for Ireland?) is ponderous and old. Usually Kearney, Trimble and another. Of course that will make a difference.

Earls has shown what he can do with just a bit of space. He doesn't get that for Munster or for Ireland.

You'd do better to use Henshaw at 13 with Payne/Zebo at 15 for sure
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 12:49 pm

Problem is that 13 seems to be earmarked for Ringrose and Henshaw is been shoehorned into 12 rather than using a 12

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 12:59 pm

marty2086 wrote:Problem is that 13 seems to be earmarked for Ringrose and Henshaw is been shoehorned into 12 rather than using a 12

Yes, but who says that Henshaw needs to start? Schmidt, apparently. Because Henshaw is another hard working, robotic, solid player, the sort that Schmidt favours. He was quite exciting when he came on the scene though. Either way, Henshaw was moved to 12 because we didn't have any at the time. Marshall was having the concussion episodes and then there was Olding with his dodgy knee. Now we have even more options.

It would be much healthier for Henshaw and Ringrose to battle it out at 13, and leave 12 to the actual 12s.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 1:00 pm

I wasn't arguing with you there Marty, by the way. Just expanding on your point.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by asoreleftshoulder on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 1:17 pm

I think you make the problem simpler than it is,Henshaw hasn't stopped Leinster being expansive this year so I doubt changing him for whoever you have in mind would help

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 1:28 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I think you make the problem simpler than it is,Henshaw hasn't stopped Leinster being expansive this year so I doubt changing him for whoever you have in mind would help

Nope, I said that selection is one aspect of the "problem". I also recognise the obvious truth, unlike many of the Schmidtoids who seem to think that each player is a robot that just needs to carry out the commands of its mastermind, that each player has different strengths and weaknesses and some players are better than others. As I said above, Henshaw at 12 is different from Scannell at 12. Trimble on the wing is different from Sweetnam on the wing. Etc, etc.

Henshaw has been fairly anonymous for Leinster this season, in my opinion. You can still play with width without a playmaking 12, especially if the 12 can carry and offload well, but having one there certainly adds a bit more variety to the attack and keeps the defence guessing. Nobody has to guess with Henshaw at 12.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by asoreleftshoulder on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 1:37 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:I think you make the problem simpler than it is,Henshaw hasn't stopped Leinster being expansive this year so I doubt changing him for whoever you have in mind would help

Nope, I said that selection is one aspect of the "problem". I also recognise the obvious truth, unlike many of the Schmidtoids who seem to think that each player is a robot that just needs to carry out the commands of its mastermind, that each player has different strengths and weaknesses and some players are better than others. As I said above, Henshaw at 12 is different from Scannell at 12. Trimble on the wing is different from Sweetnam on the wing. Etc, etc.

Henshaw has been fairly anonymous for Leinster this season, in my opinion. You can still play with width without a playmaking 12, especially if the 12 can carry and offload well, but having one there certainly adds a bit more variety to the attack and keeps the defence guessing. Nobody has to guess with Henshaw at 12.

Henshaw has been excellent for Leinster,a huge improvement on T'eo ,better defender by a mile and slightly better in attack.He's less likely to step someone and make a line break but much more capable of holding a man and making the simple passes. He's a work in progress but barring injury I think he'll have a similar career path as Ma'a Nonu (obviously not as successful) big basher at first but he'll develop the playmaking side,he already has the kicking,running and defensive side of things down.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 2:24 pm

Well, I disagree with almost all of that.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by asoreleftshoulder on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 2:35 pm

Yeah it seems we have fundamentally different views on what makes a good player and team.We may just agree to disagree.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by rodders on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 2:35 pm

Me too. I don't think Henshaw's as good as Rob Henderson or Kevin Maggs let alone Ma Nonu or Teo.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by marty2086 on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 3:09 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:I think you make the problem simpler than it is,Henshaw hasn't stopped Leinster being expansive this year so I doubt changing him for whoever you have in mind would help

Nope, I said that selection is one aspect of the "problem". I also recognise the obvious truth, unlike many of the Schmidtoids who seem to think that each player is a robot that just needs to carry out the commands of its mastermind, that each player has different strengths and weaknesses and some players are better than others. As I said above, Henshaw at 12 is different from Scannell at 12. Trimble on the wing is different from Sweetnam on the wing. Etc, etc.

Henshaw has been fairly anonymous for Leinster this season, in my opinion. You can still play with width without a playmaking 12, especially if the 12 can carry and offload well, but having one there certainly adds a bit more variety to the attack and keeps the defence guessing. Nobody has to guess with Henshaw at 12.

Henshaw has been excellent for Leinster,a huge improvement on T'eo ,better defender by a mile and slightly better in attack.He's less likely to step someone and make a line break but much more capable of holding a man and making the simple passes. He's a work in progress but barring injury I think he'll have a similar career path as Ma'a Nonu (obviously not as successful) big basher at first but he'll develop the playmaking side,he already has the kicking,running and defensive side of things down.

I think Henshaw showed his skills at Connacht and flashes at Leinster and for Ireland, he seems to be playing as he is asked to play which long term may be detrimental to him as he seems to be going the same way as Luke Marshall a few years ago when Anscombe turned him into a bosh merchant and picking up the knocks and bang that go with it

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by rodders on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 5:01 pm

He's not a bosh merchant, he's well under 100kg.

However if you play inside center beside a 12 who is flat to gainline then you have to be able to take a short line and get boshed from time to time.

The alternative is for the 10 and 12 stand deeper and boot the ball away or shovel it on behind the gain line.

Marshall has benefited from the move to 13. Henshaw is in a different position though as he isn't as good as Ringrose.

He flattered to deceive alongside Bundee aki and now he's been found out a bit at Leinster.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by theslosty on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 5:12 pm

Taking everything into perspective, I think Joe has been a very good coach for Ireland but clearly we struggle to stretch top defences. There's definitely been an attempt play with more width however, but we don't do it with nearly enough speed and always revert to one-out runners once in the opposition 22.

I think the best rugby under Schmidt that we saw was in his first season in 2013/14 - this was despite having incredibly slow backs - namely D'arcy, BOD, Trimble, D Kearney and R Kearney. However I seem to remember we were very effective at generating quick ball and Sexton had a bit more to his running game back then. Despite his age BOD was still capable of occasional moments of brilliance and perhaps Schmidt's plays hadn't been particularly analysed by opposition coaches by that stage.

Moving into the present BOD is retired, Sexton has slowed down and for whatever reason we aren't generating the quick ball like we used to. I also believe Conor Murray is part of the problem, he always like to take a half second to assess his options before passing - someone like Marmion may make a few more errors but I thought our back play against England this year looked sharper with him at 9. I'd be interested if anyone else thought the same.

Kearney has been a great servant but is a shadow of the player he was 4 or 5 years ago, I think Payne, Zebo and TOH are all superior options now.

As for Henshaw, I agree 12 is not his best position and wish we had more of a playmaker there, but like it or not he's still been a very consistent performer for us, and dropping him would be incredibly harsh. Henshaw, Payne and Ringrose are by some way the 3 best centres in Ireland imo, it's a shame none of them are natural 12s - but until someone like Olding or Scannell starts showing some real consistent form for their province, I can't see this changing anytime soon.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by rodders on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 5:21 pm

Agree on Murray, Reddan was always very good at sparking attacks.

Times change and Joe knows you have to keep evolving. Murray is by far the best 9 around but is better when the ball is slow.

One of the really effective ploys in the first 6N win was the ball passed back towards the ruck for Kearney and Trimble but once defenses work it out then it is easy to read.

Sexton is not the player he was either and a lot of the better attacking play comes when Jackson is starting.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by profitius on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 8:42 pm

rodders wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
We now finally have players with pace, power and guile who can play in the back line and it is time to use them properly.

Who? Our best outside backs are dirt trackers for the Lions or Lions rejects. The Scarlets left most of them chasing shadows a few weeks ago.

It's time to get real and stop with the hyperbole. We have decent backs that is it. They work hard and defend well but there isn't the skill levels or pace of some our rivals.

In terms of offloading, well Schmidt encourages offloading if it is on but some of the skills just aren't there at times, which is the fault of the underage systems not Schmidt.

I think Irish rugby is in a good place but there is a lot of work today to get to the next level.

Irrespective of rankings I think we are falling behind the other home nations and this summer should be a wake up call that many of our front range players aren't as good as we like to think.    


Because of their style of play. They won the pro12 in style and happened to play the best attacking rugby. The season before Connacht won the pro12 in style (with a different Robbie Henshaw) and they played the best attacking rugby that season. The year before that Glasgow won the league in style and they played the best attacking rugby that season. See the pattern here?


Even the Springboks are trying to play a more expansive game these days because the penny dropped that their power based game dooes not work anymore.


You can say Ireland are 3rd in the world but Scotland were 4th or 5th last weekend and look at the resources Schmidt has compare to the Scots. Australia are in crisis, the Springboks can't keep hold of their players and France are France.


Another one of your points that Schmidt encourages offloading is false. Everything we've read up to this point is he doesn't like offloads. The statistics back that up.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Maine man on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 9:37 pm

Am I correct in saying henshaw played full back at connacht too? Is that a possibility for Ireland? But that's only if Olding or Scannell step up as I feel that they are the most creative centres in Ireland.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by profitius on Wed 28 Jun 2017, 10:38 pm

Maine man wrote:Am I correct in saying henshaw played full back at connacht too? Is that a possibility for Ireland? But that's only if Olding or Scannell step up as I feel that they are the most creative centres in Ireland.


Henshaw started out as a fullback and is a good one too but Schmidt wants his physicality used in the center.
Scannell is still a bit raw for me. Good player and I'm a fan of his but we're looking at potential rather than the finished product. He is similar to Luke Marshall in style.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 10:35 am

The blunt truth is Ireland do not have a12 of the required standard

Henshaw isn't the answer
Marshall isn't the answer
Scannell isn't the answer
Olding isn't the answer
McCloskey isn't the answer

Fortunately the answer is nearly an Irishman - Bundee Aki

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Marshes on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 10:46 am

rodders wrote:Me too. I don't think Henshaw's as good as Rob Henderson or Kevin Maggs let alone Ma Nonu or Teo.

Jesus steady on, I don't remember Henderson or Maggs ever taking games by the scruff of the neck in wins against New Zealand or England. Henshaw has been one of the major success stories under Schmidt. That comparison is fairly myopic.

I think he is a better 13, when he has played there for Connacht they won a league title, and the few times he played there for Ireland he has been very strong (alongside England with McCloskey at 12 springs to mind). I agree with posters saying he is a better 13 than a 12, but he has still put in consistently strong performances performances at 12 for Ireland, don't remember him having a particularly bad one.

If any of the Ulster lads were able to offer anything more, fitness permitting, they would be in there, and they have had their chances. McCloskey has gone backwards, Luke Marshall has been unlucky with injuries but is there abouts, and Olding has been very unlucky with injuries (needs provincial gametime before talking about international inclusion). But I don't see where they are massively outshining Henshaw to warrant this comparison.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Marshes on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 10:57 am

geoff999rugby wrote:The blunt truth is Ireland do not have a12 of the required standard

Henshaw isn't the answer
Marshall isn't the answer
Scannell isn't the answer
Olding isn't the answer
McCloskey isn't the answer

Fortunately the answer is nearly an Irishman - Bundee Aki

I'm still struggling to see how Henshaw isn't the answer to "who is our best available 12?". Like I say I'd ideally have him competing at 13 rather than 12, but he is realistically another level up from anything else we have at 12. Marshall is the next closest but has been unlucky with injuries.

I wouldn't pin hopes on Bundee, as fantastic as he is, I'd say he may chose to go home long run.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 11:14 am

I agree Henshaw is the best option and Marshall the second best option but for me they all come up short.

I agree with others Henshaw is a better 13.

Aki has only one hope of playing International rugby and that is with Ireland, hopefully that will be enough of a lure
At 27, and given AB strength, he will never play for the Kiwis.
Even staying for a couple of years until the WC would be a boost by which time someone else may have come good.

I agree re Maggs and Henderson neither were anything special and no better than Henshaw as a 12

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by rodders on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 11:50 am

profitius wrote:
Because of their style of play. They won the pro12 in style and happened to play the best attacking rugby. The season before Connacht won the pro12 in style (with a different Robbie Henshaw) and they played the best attacking rugby that season. The year before that Glasgow won the league in style and they played the best attacking rugby that season. See the pattern here?

Yup and when Connacht lost key players like Muldowney, Henshaw, Bundi-aki, McGinty etc. for most or all of the following season how did that offloading game go?

Same with Glasgow with the likes of Matawalu.

Scarlet's made fools of Leinster and Munster sides full of Ireland internationals because on the firm summer turf they were fitter, faster and more skillful and beat them at their own game when the game was played at pace.

If Ireland want to compete they need to play a slower game utilizing the kick and chase, and forward pack because it the only area we are world class. Once we move out from the half backs it is all very average and Schmidt knows this.


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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Marshes on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 11:54 am

geoff999rugby wrote:I agree Henshaw is the best option and Marshall the second best option but for me they all come up short.

I agree with others Henshaw is a better 13.

Aki has only one hope of playing International rugby and that is with Ireland, hopefully that will be enough of a lure
At 27, and given AB strength, he will never play for the Kiwis.
Even staying for a couple of years until the WC would be a boost by which time someone else may have come good.

I agree re Maggs and Henderson neither were anything special and no better than Henshaw as a 12

I'd agree with most of that, Henshaw maybe isn't a playmaking 12 but it's a lot to ask any player to bring excellent defence, making hard yards and creating space, a kicking option, aerial threat, and then also playmaking (where he is not terrible, just not world class). Should recognise his strengths and play to them as he is still one of our most consistent performers even in the big games. Says a lot about the expectations he has created for himself, we are forgiving more limited players a lot more! Maggs and Henderson in the same breath is madness.

Yeah I wonder how concerned Aki is about international honours for Ireland, interviews he gives blow hot and cold and often mention Samoa and his family as well. If he is called in November it would be a sight to see him in that the Ireland jersey inside Ringrose, he is an absolute machine.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by rodders on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 11:59 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
I agree re Maggs and Henderson neither were anything special and no better than Henshaw as a 12

Pretty sure Maggs has the same number of tries against the ABs and Henderson is a test Lion, as opposed to a dirt tracker.

Both were decent players, which makes them as good as Henshaw, who's found his level on the Lions, and that is some way behind Teo.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 12:05 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:The blunt truth is Ireland do not have a12 of the required standard

Henshaw isn't the answer
Marshall isn't the answer
Scannell isn't the answer
Olding isn't the answer
McCloskey isn't the answer

Fortunately the answer is nearly an Irishman - Bundee Aki

Flip me, they are all 25 and under. Scannell has just finished his second full season of professional rugby with Munster at 23. He makes a few errors but he has been very solid/consistent in my opinion. He has been excellent at times. Should progress nicely.

The others are also capable of doing the job if they remain fit. Henshaw just isn't a 12. Aki has been crap for Connacht this season, his defending is awful and he isn't any better in attack than some of the others. Makes a lot of silly mistakes too.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 12:07 pm

Marshes wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:The blunt truth is Ireland do not have a12 of the required standard

Henshaw isn't the answer
Marshall isn't the answer
Scannell isn't the answer
Olding isn't the answer
McCloskey isn't the answer

Fortunately the answer is nearly an Irishman - Bundee Aki

I'm still struggling to see how Henshaw isn't the answer to "who is our best available 12?". Like I say I'd ideally have him competing at 13 rather than 12, but he is realistically another level up from anything else we have at 12. Marshall is the next closest but has been unlucky with injuries.

I wouldn't pin hopes on Bundee, as fantastic as he is, I'd say he may chose to go home long run.

No, he isn't, realistically. Olding has done more in an Irish shirt at 12 than Henshaw has for seasons, for example. Marshall and Henshaw against SA was our best centre combination yet. McCloskey (in attack) can do Henshaw's job better.

As usual Irish fans are ultra conservative and worried to stray from the norm.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 12:10 pm

Marshes wrote:
rodders wrote:Me too. I don't think Henshaw's as good as Rob Henderson or Kevin Maggs let alone Ma Nonu or Teo.

Jesus steady on, I don't remember Henderson or Maggs ever taking games by the scruff of the neck in wins against New Zealand or England. Henshaw has been one of the major success stories under Schmidt. That comparison is fairly myopic.

I think he is a better 13, when he has played there for Connacht they won a league title, and the few times he played there for Ireland he has been very strong (alongside England with McCloskey at 12 springs to mind). I agree with posters saying he is a better 13 than a 12, but he has still put in consistently strong performances performances at 12 for Ireland, don't remember him having a particularly bad one.

If any of the Ulster lads were able to offer anything more, fitness permitting, they would be in there, and they have had their chances. McCloskey has gone backwards, Luke Marshall has been unlucky with injuries but is there abouts, and Olding has been very unlucky with injuries (needs provincial gametime before talking about international inclusion). But I don't see where they are massively outshining Henshaw to warrant this comparison.

Olding has already proven himself at the top level and Schmidt is supposed to be a big fan, so he doesn't need to prove anything other than his fitness. He wasn't as good this season, but then again, how many Ulster players came out looking good after this season?

The reality is that there are actually many other options to Henshaw.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Marshes on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 12:29 pm

rodders wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
I agree re Maggs and Henderson neither were anything special and no better than Henshaw as a 12

Pretty sure Maggs has the same number of tries against the ABs and Henderson is a test Lion, as opposed to a dirt tracker.

Both were decent players, which makes them as good as Henshaw, who's found his level on the Lions, and that is some way behind Teo.

Same number of tries Maggs on the receiving end of 40-29 vs the All Blacks, Henshaw on the business end. Henshaw also has Ireland's first victory in SA as well as against NZ, a six nations, a Lions tour, and a winners medal with Connacht. And is 24. I'm not saying he is Jesus reborn, but it's a silly comparison.

I think there is no shame that Henshaw isn't meeting Gatland's requirements, plenty of class players there not suited to his style.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Marshes on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 12:40 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Marshes wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:The blunt truth is Ireland do not have a12 of the required standard

Henshaw isn't the answer
Marshall isn't the answer
Scannell isn't the answer
Olding isn't the answer
McCloskey isn't the answer

Fortunately the answer is nearly an Irishman - Bundee Aki

I'm still struggling to see how Henshaw isn't the answer to "who is our best available 12?". Like I say I'd ideally have him competing at 13 rather than 12, but he is realistically another level up from anything else we have at 12. Marshall is the next closest but has been unlucky with injuries.

I wouldn't pin hopes on Bundee, as fantastic as he is, I'd say he may chose to go home long run.

No, he isn't, realistically. Olding has done more in an Irish shirt at 12 than Henshaw has for seasons, for example. Marshall and Henshaw against SA was our best centre combination yet. McCloskey (in attack) can do Henshaw's job better.

As usual Irish fans are ultra conservative and worried to stray from the norm.

Shocked

Eh? Olding has a try against Georgia and two losses on the South Africa tour. Henshaw scored pivotal tries against England en route to a six nations and in our first win over NZ, and has been one of our top performers under Schmidt. He has done way more than Olding in an Irish shirt. I agree Marshall and Henshaw in SA was our best centre combo, and I like Olding, but he needs to stay consistently fit and nail down the Ulster 12 jersey to be even considered in the argument for Irish 12.

I also liked McCloskey and Henshaw against England as a combo, but McCloskey stagnated last year, and so is probably behind Marshall, Scannell and Olding in the pecking order, never mind Henshaw.

It's not about conservatism, it's about who has stood up and taken the jersey. You just seem to be trying to shoehorn in an Ulsterman over one of our most consistent international performers.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Marshes on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 12:46 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Olding has already proven himself at the top level and Schmidt is supposed to be a big fan, so he doesn't need to prove anything other than his fitness. He wasn't as good this season, but then again, how many Ulster players came out looking good after this season?

The reality is that there are actually many other options to Henshaw.

As I say, I like Olding and thing he has amazing promise, but he has 4 matches at international level, he unfortunately hasn't proven anything.

As you say, Olding like most of the Ulster centres didn't have his best year last year. In your post above you put McCloskey, Olding and Marshall above Henshaw at 12, who do you even consider to be the best centre pairing at Ulster?

Do you think their might be some SUFTUM-tinted glasses going on here?

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:06 pm

Nope, I've been extremely critical of Ulster and the form of our players for the past year. Silly response. But it is still my opinion that Olding shown more at 12 from an attacking sense than Henshaw ever has, both for club and country. Henshaw is Jamie Roberts-lite at 12, solid at best. He caught a ball against England and scored, and has been overrated ever since. What else has he done? Carried into traffic. Made his tackles. Good boy, but he struggles against an actual Jamie Roberts-esque player and is extremely predictable. Olding, for example, adds a bit of variety, which he has shown.

No idea what the best centre pairing for Ulster is, as it seems to change on a weekly basis with players out of position. Horses for courses I guess, with one of Marshall, Olding or McCloskey at 12 and one of Payne or Cave at 13.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:07 pm

For the record, based on Olding's injury record, as well as McCloskey and Marshall's inconsistency, plus the fact that all 3 are vying for the same position, I think that Scannell may be the perfect fit alongside Ringrose. He ticks all the boxes for me, just needs experience.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:12 pm

The reality is only one of Marshall, Olding and McCloskey will even start for Ulster as a centre next year so there is no way thy can all develop adequately.

Olding hasn't been tested at test level yet - USA and even a poor SA doesn't do it.
Don't get me wrong his natural talent is exceptional and an exciting player to watch but there are some question marks:
- Injury
- Size
- Getting into the Ulster team
- The event we cannot mention

I can see him playing 15 as much as 12 next year for Ulster.
That may just be his best chance of an Irish career
Ireland need a smart rugby brain at 15 and no one, after Payne and Kearney, putting their hands up.

Until McCloskey learns to defend he is going nowhere

Scannell looks like a solid provincial player to me - no x factor
He ticks very few boxes for me

As I say Henshaw and Marshall are the best bets but compared to D'Arcy, at his best, a considerable step down.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by rodders on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:20 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
No idea what the best centre pairing for Ulster is

I'll help you it is McCoskey and Marshall Smile

For Ireland it is Farrell and Ringrose Smile
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:21 pm

If by "x-factor" you mean flair, then I agree, he doesn't really have that. But neither does Paddy Jackson, who I would take over almost any other 10 in Europe. What Jackson does do is unlock the backline and play an intelligent and controlled game from 10. He reads the game extremely well and when it is on, he will take it to the line. Different player from a Beauden Barrett, but Irish 10s seem to fit this mould more often than not. Ross Byrne looks similar, and could replace Carbery as the challenger to Jackson's berth.

Scannell is a similar player to me, but with added bulk. For anyone who follows Munster rugby he makes an awful lot of ground with his carrying, more than one might expect. He has a good passing and kicking game and should develop his decision making as he progresses in test rugby, as Jackson did. I don't expect a whole lot more. I would rather have the flair in the outside backs, but for some reason we prefer to have the solid options out there.

EDIT: And he's a Munster player for goodness sake. They don't do flair in those parts.


Last edited by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:22 pm

rodders wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
No idea what the best centre pairing for Ulster is

I'll help you it is McCoskey and Marshall Smile

For Ireland it is Farrell and Ringrose Smile

McCloskey and Marshall were pretty crap this season. Marshall hasn't a clue how to defend at 13 and McCloskey struggles enough at 12 as it is.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:24 pm

Ulster first choice centre pairing next year is Marshall and Payne - that is from inside the club not just my opinion
I agree

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:27 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Ulster first choice centre pairing next year is Marshall and Payne - that is from inside the club not just my opinion
I agree

I would be very happy to see that, with Olding featuring at 12 every now and again when he hasn't broken his limbs.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:29 pm

I can see Olding on the bench covering 10,12,13,15.

That would allow an out and out winger on the bench as well - the non selected one from Piatau, Trimble, Stockdale

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by marty2086 on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:33 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:I can see Olding on the bench covering 10,12,13,15.

That would allow an out and out winger on the bench as well - the non selected one from Piatau, Trimble, Stockdale

Don't forgot Tommy Whistle

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by theslosty on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:47 pm

I can see how Henshaw still has some way to go in a playmaking sense but the hyperbole from certain posters here is laughable - "he caught a ball against England and scored - and since then has been overrated"

If anything Olding is surely overrated, I remember him when he broke out and he ran in some nice tries against some weak Pro12 opposition - but tell me which big games he has stood up in and delivered big performances since then?

I like what Scannell brought to Munster this year but I can see him going down the Darren Cave route - excellent servant for his province but just lacking what it takes to nail down an international place.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 3:54 pm

To be fair what big games has Olding played in ?

Scannell - will be an excellent provincial player but just short of international class
The comparison with Cave is spot on


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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by theslosty on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 4:02 pm

I hope Scannell proves me wrong but that's my feeling at the moment.

You raise a fair point about Olding but surely that backs up my original point - a lot of hype for a player who hasn't been able to justify it yet. If nothing else, Henshaw is a player for the big occasion - off the top of my head his best games in a green shirt were the 2015 6N decider against England, the RWC group decider vs France and of course Chicago where he was only second to Murray imo.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 4:03 pm

theslosty wrote:I can see how Henshaw still has some way to go in a playmaking sense but the hyperbole from certain posters here is laughable - "he caught a ball against England and scored - and since then has been overrated"

If anything Olding is surely overrated, I remember him when he broke out and he ran in some nice tries against some weak Pro12 opposition - but tell me which big games he has stood up in and delivered big performances since then?

I like what Scannell brought to Munster this year but I can see him going down the Darren Cave route - excellent servant for his province but just lacking what it takes to nail down an international place.

What I said about Henshaw is true. What else has he done?

"Consistency"
"Solid performer"
"Part of a winning team"

Is there really any disagreement that Olding is a more naturally talented player than Henshaw? Les Kiss and Schmidt seem to rave about him. Only a year ago he started in two games for Ireland against South Africa. Looked as if he was a seasoned international.

As for Scannell - I see no reason why he couldn't be international level. What's your reasons? What does Henshaw offer that Scannell doesn't, for example? I could name a few things in favour of Scannell.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 29 Jun 2017, 4:06 pm

I can also say that with Henshaw at 12, the variety in our attack is gone. Henshaw-Payne was possibly the bluntest Irish midfield since I began watching the sport. I'm beginning to realise that Payne at 13 was never the issue.

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