Ireland Summer tour.

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Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Maine man on Wed 19 Apr 2017, 12:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

So now we know who's off with the Lions, who you like to see tour with Ireland? I was hoping that some of the regular wingers would have went as I'd like to see Byrne and the young Munster winger get a crack this summer. Fingers crossed they still will. My starting XV this summer would be:
Healy, Cronin, Ryan, O'Connor, Ryan, Conan, Van der Flier, Heaslip, Marmion, Jackson, Sweetnam (sp), Olding, Ringrose, Byrne, O'Halloran.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 5:37 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It isn't even new caps I'm really looking for on this tour. For example, there aren't too many players in the pack that need to be capped. Sean O'Brien at Connacht would be my favourite option for a first cap, but there are a lot of relative newbies (Conan, Leavy, vdF, Dillane) who need more game-time. So I'm happy for Heaslip, Ruddock, Ryan etc. all to feature in the team, as long as the other players get a shot.

It's the backs. We seriously lack pace in the back three especially and we finally have some very young and talented players to choose from. We should be looking at these youngsters sooner rather than later. Byrne, Stockdale, Sweetnam. Plus we need to give Ringrose a new partner at 12.

If we don't deviate from Earls, McFadden, Zebo, Trimble and Kearney in the back three, what a flipping waste of a tour. To me that is one of the key areas we need to look at.


 OK

This is the area that has real potential to add something extra to that spine we speak of, because as yet, the usual selection of backs aren't any kind of spine at the highest level.  
I take nothing from the players there in terms of what is asked of them defensively and at breakdown etc.  The gameplan itself is a big part of the problem as to why our backline is so blunt in attacking terms.  I admit that and currently Ireland as set up is a tough place to show your potential in as a back. 

But still, as Rory says, this is the exciting area, the area of true promise that if unearthed will absolutely bring us to another level in terms of scoring opportunities and consistency.  The engine room of forwards look pretty solid all over the place - the weak point is the backs - not balanced, not dangerous enough a prospect for good opposition, not given a proper gameplan to give them a chance to escape the clutter of midfield and not enough honest young contenders being given opportunities over the last few years.

We have our results - some historic ones - but it's an awful lot of grunt and physical effort to make the yards and cross the line.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by rodders on Mon 01 May 2017, 10:16 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
It's the backs. We seriously lack pace in the back three especially and we finally have some very young and talented players to choose from. We should be looking at these youngsters sooner rather than later. Byrne, Stockdale, Sweetnam. Plus we need to give Ringrose a new partner at 12.

Well it's time McCloskey lived up to his massive potential, it seems a common theme for these young Ulster players to stagnate and go backwards after their breakthrough seasons - hopefully we won't see the same with Stockdale who has been one of the stars of the season in Irish rugby.

Scannell has had a strong season but think Ringrose excels with a more physical partner.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 02 May 2017, 11:49 am

Id say this tour is as much about logistics for the WC in Japan than anything. As long as we have a really strong back up for every player in every position going into the next WC I dont care who is picked on this tour. We probably arent too far off that at the moment with guys like Marmion, McGrath and Carbery playing well in positions of squad weakness.

I dont think capping all the youngest up and coming guys will do us much good either. The squad that usually wins the WC tends to be the one with the most experience rather the one with the youngest players.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 02 May 2017, 12:08 pm

I think Scannell could be a very good partner for Ringrose in the centres. He is very robust and makes a lot of ground in the carry. Plus he has experience as a 10 so provides an extra playmaking option.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 02 May 2017, 12:08 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Id say this tour is as much about logistics for the WC in Japan than anything. As long as we have a really strong back up for every player in every position going into the next WC I dont care who is picked on this tour. We probably arent too far off that at the moment with guys like Marmion, McGrath and Carbery playing well in positions of squad weakness.

I dont think capping all the youngest up and coming guys will do us much good either. The squad that usually wins the WC tends to be the one with the most experience rather the one with the youngest players.

It isn't about capping young players for the sake of it. It is because some of the younger players are clearly offering something the older heads don't.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by profitius on Tue 02 May 2017, 12:59 pm

Ireland have usually the oldest team (or one of) at the world cup and failed miserably each time. I say play the best players and only in a real 50/50 situation, pick the experienced one.

This tour should be about the next layer down. The Carbery's, Marmion's etc. Knowing Schmidt he'll ask Mike Ross for an extra month.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 02 May 2017, 1:39 pm

profitius wrote:Ireland have usually the oldest team (or one of) at the world cup and failed miserably each time. I say play the best players and only in a real 50/50 situation, pick the experienced one.

This tour should be about the next layer down. The Carbery's, Marmion's etc. Knowing Schmidt he'll ask Mike Ross for an extra month.

No they dont. Plus I didnt say anything about age but rather experience. The ABs had the most capped squad at the last WC and won. By contrast England had one of the most inexperienced squads at the last WC and failed to advance from their group.

In any case Ireland didnt have the oldest squad at all:

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11508414

Most experienced RWC squads at last RWC:
1. New Zealand 1,484 caps
2. South Africa 1,297
3. Georgia 1,253
4. Australia 1,243
5. Italy 1,153
6. Romania 1,151
7. Ireland 1,024
8. Wales 1,013
9. Japan 984
10. France 979
11. Scotland 901
12. Argentina 845
13. Uruguay 833
14. England 761
15. Canada 673
16. Fiji 592
17. USA 552
18. Namibia 512
19. Tonga 501
20. Samoa 483

Makes sense that Aus, SA and NZ made it to the KO stages. Argentina also managed to put out a more experienced side v Ireland due to injuries and a suspension to Ireland players.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 02 May 2017, 1:50 pm

There comes a point when you need to consolidate and work on what you have already got. I think we are coming close to that point.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by profitius on Tue 02 May 2017, 2:33 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
profitius wrote:Ireland have usually the oldest team (or one of) at the world cup and failed miserably each time. I say play the best players and only in a real 50/50 situation, pick the experienced one.

This tour should be about the next layer down. The Carbery's, Marmion's etc. Knowing Schmidt he'll ask Mike Ross for an extra month.

No they dont. Plus I didnt say anything about age but rather experience. The ABs had the most capped squad at the last WC and won. By contrast England had one of the most inexperienced squads at the last WC and failed to advance from their group.

In any case Ireland didnt have the oldest squad at all:

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11508414

Most experienced RWC squads at last RWC:
1. New Zealand 1,484 caps
2. South Africa 1,297
3. Georgia 1,253
4. Australia 1,243
5. Italy 1,153
6. Romania 1,151
7. Ireland 1,024
8. Wales 1,013
9. Japan 984
10. France 979
11. Scotland 901
12. Argentina 845
13. Uruguay 833
14. England 761
15. Canada 673
16. Fiji 592
17. USA 552
18. Namibia 512
19. Tonga 501
20. Samoa 483

Makes sense that Aus, SA and NZ made it to the KO stages. Argentina also managed to put out a more experienced side v Ireland due to injuries and a suspension to Ireland players.


Ireland were one of the joint oldest squad too. And those Ireland players have plenty of experience in big European and pro12 knock out rugby.


Gatland had the right idea in 2011. He brought through a new generation of young players at that world cup and they almost made the final. Knocking Ireland out on the way.

Ironically many of those Welsh players are more experienced now, in their prime years but many have gone downhill since 2013/14.


Experience helps players improve but some players don't need it to improve and some never improve with it.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 02 May 2017, 2:43 pm

No it has nothing to do with not giving youth a chance when you consider that NZ and SA the two finalists were the other joint oldest squads. That and the fact that quite a few of Ireland's most capped players of all time retired after the 2011 WC and before the 2015 WC. Not much the 2015 management could do about that.

Ireland lost four of their most experienced players and leaders for the Argentina test. That is the most telling stat for me.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 02 May 2017, 3:22 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:There comes a point when you need to consolidate and work on what you have already got. I think we are coming close to that point.

Which is exactly why we should immediately blood some of the youngsters who will actually add some important impetus in attack. Otherwise we are going to have a back three well over 30 (with the exception of Zebo), an old and immobile back row, a captain who will be close to 40 than 30 and an outhalf on a walking stick at this point.

Seriously, are we going to leave home all of Stockdale, Byrne, Sweetnam, Gilroy, O'Halloran or whoever else might actually do something with the ball? More likely to have McFadden, Bowes and Trimble featuring at this rate.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 02 May 2017, 3:25 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:No it has nothing to do with not giving youth a chance when you consider that NZ and SA the two finalists were the other joint oldest squads. That and the fact that quite a few of Ireland's most capped players of all time retired after the 2011 WC and before the 2015 WC. Not much the 2015 management could do about that.

Ireland lost four of their most experienced players and leaders for the Argentina test. That is the most telling stat for me.

It's useless throwing statistics around without any analysis. Which players were the oldest, were they still clearly the best in their positions and was there any controversy over their selections? For example, in the case of the All Blacks, why would you drop the likes of Read, McCaw or Smith? They did however have Rettalick, Whitelock, Savea, Nadolo, Milner-Skudder and so on.

Obviously some of our older players are still the best in their positions, but holding onto Bowe, Trimble and McFadden in the positions most tailored for young zippers is just moronic beyond belief.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 02 May 2017, 3:31 pm

Players who almost certainly will be too old or unfit to feature in the next world cup:

Healy, Best, Ryan, Toner, O'Brien, Heaslip, Sexton, Payne, Trimble, Bowe, Earls (probably the harshest choice here), Kearney.

That's pretty flipping close to the spine of our current side. And before someone starts telling me that the likes of Healy, O'Brien etc. won't be that old, I'm taking their injury profile into account alongside their age.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 02 May 2017, 3:41 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:There comes a point when you need to consolidate and work on what you have already got. I think we are coming close to that point.

Which is exactly why we should immediately blood some of the youngsters who will actually add some important impetus in attack. Otherwise we are going to have a back three well over 30 (with the exception of Zebo), an old and immobile back row, a captain who will be close to 40 than 30 and an outhalf on a walking stick at this point.

Seriously, are we going to leave home all of Stockdale, Byrne, Sweetnam, Gilroy, O'Halloran or whoever else might actually do something with the ball? More likely to have McFadden, Bowes and Trimble featuring at this rate.

The next WC is in 2019. Best our oldest player will only be 36 if still around at the next RWC. I dont think there is any major need to cap lots of young players now.

O'Halloran or Payne who are already capped may well be the starting 15 at the next RWC. Zebo will also be in his prime by then.

On the wing I'd imagine there may be a couple of new caps as this is the one position where pace counts more than others and younger players tend to have more pace. Byrne will probably be in the squad by then.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 02 May 2017, 3:46 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Players who almost certainly will be too old or unfit to feature in the next world cup:

Healy, Best, Ryan, Toner, O'Brien, Heaslip, Sexton, Payne, Trimble, Bowe, Earls (probably the harshest choice here), Kearney.

That's pretty flipping close to the spine of our current side. And before someone starts telling me that the likes of Healy, O'Brien etc. won't be that old, I'm taking their injury profile into account alongside their age.

Cant say I agree really.

Toner will be 31 which is around the peak for a lock.
sexton will be 33 which may mean he is only a replacement by then but if so then great sub to bring on. Same age as Carter at the last RWC
Payne doesnt have many international games on the clock so should be fine
Earls is showing good form now and will only be 31

All good squads need experience that these guys will offer even if off the bench

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 02 May 2017, 3:50 pm

Most players do not reach 36 in their international career, Guns. There has to be backups at the very least for the players in that age range. Thankfully we have them in the back row and many are coming through in the back three. They need experience.

It isn't about capping young players for the sake of it, as I said. It is about getting the best players on the pitch. I couldn't give a crap who knows the system best.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 02 May 2017, 3:52 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Most players do not reach 36 in their international career, Guns. There has to be backups at the very least for the players in that age range. Thankfully we have them in the back row and many are coming through in the back three. They need experience.

It isn't about capping young players for the sake of it, as I said. It is about getting the best players on the pitch. I couldn't give a crap who knows the system best.

Thats true but Best is the only player who can possibly play at the next RWC for Ireland who will be that old. We have plenty of back up already at hooker too.

Matfield was 37 at the last RWC. Mealamu was on the bench for NZ in the final and was 36.


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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 02 May 2017, 3:53 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Players who almost certainly will be too old or unfit to feature in the next world cup:

Healy, Best, Ryan, Toner, O'Brien, Heaslip, Sexton, Payne, Trimble, Bowe, Earls (probably the harshest choice here), Kearney.

That's pretty flipping close to the spine of our current side. And before someone starts telling me that the likes of Healy, O'Brien etc. won't be that old, I'm taking their injury profile into account alongside their age.

Cant say I agree really.

Toner will be 31 which is around the peak for a lock.
sexton will be 33 which may mean he is only a replacement by then but if so then great sub to bring on. Same age as Carter at the last RWC
Payne doesnt have many international games on the clock so should be fine
Earls is showing good form now and will only be 31

All good squads need experience that these guys will offer even if off the bench

Toner is already stagnating. He will be closer to 32. Sexton will be 33 and has a horrendous injury profile. Carter didn't. Payne has been very injury prone this year and will probably lose out to other options (which need to be looked at soon). Earls is the harshest decision there but he too has had problems with injury in the past and plays in a position where pace is (in every team other than Ireland) a requirement. There aren't too many 30 year old wingers playing for other teams.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 02 May 2017, 3:57 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Toner is already stagnating. He will be closer to 32. Sexton will be 33 and has a horrendous injury profile. Carter didn't. Payne has been very injury prone this year and will probably lose out to other options (which need to be looked at soon). Earls is the harshest decision there but he too has had problems with injury in the past and plays in a position where pace is (in every team other than Ireland) a requirement. There aren't too many 30 year old wingers playing for other teams.

Carter was quite injury prone. Missed most of the 2011 RWC through injury which is more world cup games than Sexton has missed.

Toner had a bad six nations but has had more than his fair share of good games for Ireland. He isnt going anywhere.


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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 02 May 2017, 3:58 pm

Here's another way to look at it. If you have the likes of Stockdale, Byrne, Leavy, Conan or whoever, playing the best rugby in Ireland in their positions next season, which is a possibility, what reason would there be not to include or cap them for Ireland? What is the objection other than Schmidt fanboys defending his silly little systems which they know nothing about themselves?

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 02 May 2017, 4:00 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Toner is already stagnating. He will be closer to 32. Sexton will be 33 and has a horrendous injury profile. Carter didn't. Payne has been very injury prone this year and will probably lose out to other options (which need to be looked at soon). Earls is the harshest decision there but he too has had problems with injury in the past and plays in a position where pace is (in every team other than Ireland) a requirement. There aren't too many 30 year old wingers playing for other teams.

Carter was quite injury prone. Missed most of the 2011 RWC through injury.

Toner had a bad six nations but has had more than his fair share of good games for Ireland. He isnt going anywhere.

I'm well aware. He is part of the Schmidt club. He could play crap for the entirety of the rest of his career and still be included in the RWC squad. But really - if he isn't doing well in the line-out and offers much less around the field than other options, why should he be included? Because he played well in the past? That's just silly.

You're also taking an isolated example with Dan Carter compared to consecutive seasons of Sexton injuries to make your point...

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 02 May 2017, 4:11 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Here's another way to look at it. If you have the likes of Stockdale, Byrne, Leavy, Conan or whoever, playing the best rugby in Ireland in their positions next season, which is a possibility, what reason would there be not to include or cap them for Ireland? What is the objection other than Schmidt fanboys defending his silly little systems which they know nothing about themselves?

Conan and Leavy have already been capped so I assume they are in Schmidt's plans.

Stockdale is still quite young. I doubt if he hasnt been capped by now or isnt included in the squad to Japan he will be included in the next RWC squad but you never know. Next season being only one year before the next RWC isnt really the time for lots of new caps IMO. Byrne may be the outlier as he probably was the form winger in Ireland this year and therefore will probably travel to Japan this summer. He is two years older that Stockdale and further on in his development but again the next RWC may be a little too soon.


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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Tue 02 May 2017, 4:13 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Toner is already stagnating. He will be closer to 32. Sexton will be 33 and has a horrendous injury profile. Carter didn't. Payne has been very injury prone this year and will probably lose out to other options (which need to be looked at soon). Earls is the harshest decision there but he too has had problems with injury in the past and plays in a position where pace is (in every team other than Ireland) a requirement. There aren't too many 30 year old wingers playing for other teams.

Carter was quite injury prone. Missed most of the 2011 RWC through injury which is more world cup games than Sexton has missed.

Toner had a bad six nations but has had more than his fair share of good games for Ireland. He isnt going anywhere.

Carter and RWCs ...

2003 - injured out before the QF
2007 - came into the QF injured, lasted until half time. Evans then got injured early in the 2nd half, leaving us with feicing McAliister at 10
2011 - injured out in pool play

Then he missed most of the French club season in 2009 (ish) on his sabbatical, as well as a year or so out in late 2013/2014 (some injury, some sabbatical)

Basically DC missed about 1/3 of NZ's matches over his career

Year Played Missed Missed %
2003 8 6 43%
2004 9 2 18%
2005 7 5 42%
2006 11 2 15%
2007 9 3 25%
2008 15 0 0%
2009 7 7 50%
2010 13 1 7%
2011 6 6 50%
2012 9 5 36%
2013 6 8 57%
2014 2 12 86%
2015 10 2 17%
Total 112 59 35%
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 02 May 2017, 4:16 pm

Did well to get 112 caps despite being fairly injury prone. The sabbaticals probably helped.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by rodders on Tue 02 May 2017, 4:16 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Most players do not reach 36 in their international career, Guns.

How dare you Rory! What is wrong with being 36? angel
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Tue 02 May 2017, 4:16 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Here's another way to look at it. If you have the likes of Stockdale, Byrne, Leavy, Conan or whoever, playing the best rugby in Ireland in their positions next season, which is a possibility, what reason would there be not to include or cap them for Ireland? What is the objection other than Schmidt fanboys defending his silly little systems which they know nothing about themselves?

Conan and Leavy have already been capped so I assume they are in Schmidt's plans.

Stockdale is still quite young. I doubt if he hasnt been capped by now or isnt included in the squad to Japan he will be included in the next RWC squad but you never know. Next season being only one year before the next RWC isnt really the time for lots of new caps IMO. Byrne may be the outlier as he probably was the form winger in Ireland this year and therefore will probably travel to Japan this summer. He is two years older that Stockdale and further on in his development but again the next RWC may be a little too soon.


If both end up being the clear standout in their positions, why not include them? Why do we insist on waiting?

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 02 May 2017, 4:20 pm

because by and large international rugby is fairly different to pro 12 rugby and experience at international rugby counts for a lot in big games. There are more variables to consider than simply who is playing best in each position when selecting a squad of players or a first 15.

I dont think that NZ would have won their last two WCs without DC and McCaw and the other experienced internationals nor would SA have won in 2009 without the likes of Smit and Montgomery who was the top points scorer in that RWC.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Tue 02 May 2017, 4:30 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Did well to get 112 caps despite being fairly injury prone. The sabbaticals probably helped.

McCaw by comparison - sabbatical in 2013, 2002 he wasn't established in the team
Year Played Missed Missed %
2001 (Nov) 3 0 0%
2002 6 7 54%
2003 12 5 29%
2004 5 2 29%
2005 10 6 38%
2006 12 2 14%
2007 11 1 8%
2008 11 1 8%
2009 10 4 29%
2010 14 4 22%
2011 9 3 25%
2012 13 1 7%
2013 8 6 43%
2014 13 1 7%
2015 11 1 8%
Total 148 44 23%
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Tue 02 May 2017, 4:36 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Did well to get 112 caps despite being fairly injury prone. The sabbaticals probably helped.

McCaw by comparison - sabbatical in 2013, 2002 he wasn't established in the team
Year Played Missed Missed %
2001 (Nov) 3 0 0%
2002 6 7 54%
2003 12 5 29%
2004 5 2 29%
2005 10 6 38%
2006 12 2 14%
2007 11 1 8%
2008 11 1 8%
2009 10 4 29%
2010 14 4 22%
2011 9 3 25%
2012 13 1 7%
2013 8 6 43%
2014 13 1 7%
2015 11 1 8%
Total 148 44 23%


And Sexton
Year Played Missed Missed %
2009 2 8 80%
2010 9 2 18%
2011 13 1 7%
2012 10 0 0%
2013 4 6 60%
2014 9 1 10%
2015 9 5 36%
2016 7 5 42%
2017 3 2 40%
Overall 66 30 31%

Note, if you take out 2009 (when he broke into the team) he's missed 26% of Ireland's games. Though worryingly he's getting more fragile with age
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 02 May 2017, 4:39 pm

Yeah there is no doubt Sexton is more injury prone in recent years though I had expected him to have missed a marginally higher percentage of games that Carter. I dont think travelling with the Lions will do him any favours either. That said I dont think there is any sense at all in ruling him out for the next RWC now.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 03 May 2017, 7:10 pm

When does Joe announce the squad?

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by profitius on Thu 04 May 2017, 10:41 am

profitius wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
profitius wrote:Hows Treadwell getting on?

Honestly every game he's looking better and better. Made a break the other week and you would of sworn it was Ferris steaming down the pitch


Cheers. I have not seen much of him but know that he is supposed to be a good athlete. I might be wrong but it looks like he has slimmed down a bit since he joined Ulster?

Good interview with him in the 42.ie today with Murray Kinsella. Kinsella seems to suggest he'll be in the Ireland squad and that KT was already in the Ireland training squad before Christmas.

He said he went from 123kgs at the start of the season to 117kgs now.
Only 21 too. Didn't think he was that young.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 04 May 2017, 12:56 pm

The sooner Ulster stop with the Henderson at 6 experiment and put those two together in the second row the better. They had one game together and exceeded expectations (at this point Henderson was off form and Treadwell hadn't really impressed) but as per usual with Kiss, they haven't played together since. They could very possibly form the future Irish engine room. Treadwell can also provide the good kick up the rear that Henderson needs, he seems very aggressive in contact and might inspire Henderson to meet the same standard.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 04 May 2017, 1:00 pm

Although Ross Molony will probably jump ahead, he's a good solid Leinster player who hasn't done anything flashy yet so he will fit right in with Schmidtball. As long as he doesn't start throwing an offload or something.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by marty2086 on Thu 04 May 2017, 1:03 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The sooner Ulster stop with the Henderson at 6 experiment and put those two together in the second row the better. They had one game together and exceeded expectations (at this point Henderson was off form and Treadwell hadn't really impressed) but as per usual with Kiss, they haven't played together since. They could very possibly form the future Irish engine room. Treadwell can also provide the good kick up the rear that Henderson needs, he seems very aggressive in contact and might inspire Henderson to meet the same standard.

Sorry Rory but what experiment? Not only has he picked up quite a few caps there for Ireland and done well but Ulster have a good option of O'Connor there too, there was also a real need for him at 6 this season with Ulsters scarcity there

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by rodders on Thu 04 May 2017, 2:09 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The sooner Ulster stop with the Henderson at 6 experiment and put those two together in the second row the better. They had one game together and exceeded expectations (at this point Henderson was off form and Treadwell hadn't really impressed) but as per usual with Kiss, they haven't played together since. They could very possibly form the future Irish engine room. Treadwell can also provide the good kick up the rear that Henderson needs, he seems very aggressive in contact and might inspire Henderson to meet the same standard.

Hmm seems a bit harsh. Henderson is pretty heavily targeted by defenses these days and in the absence of big Nick Williams and Stu McCloskey he has been Ulster sole ball carrier so it's not surprising he's had less impact with the ball in hand.

By contrast Treadwell has benefited from the targeting of Hendo and also being a bit of an unknown quantity.

I've been very impressed by Treadwell, who along with Stockdale has been one of the few positives this season.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:38 pm

I don't think it is harsh. He hasn't been showing much of the aggression he has shown in previous years and he looks a bit unfit. He struggles to beat even a single defender nowadays, he just does a silly little step and then flops to the ground when he meets the defender.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by marty2086 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:42 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't think it is harsh. He hasn't been showing much of the aggression he has shown in previous years and he looks a bit unfit. He struggles to beat even a single defender nowadays, he just does a silly little step and then flops to the ground when he meets the defender.

Apparently he has been carrying an elbow injury for a while now and will be rested this weekend so he doesn't get injured before the Lions tour, the same with Rory

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:43 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:The sooner Ulster stop with the Henderson at 6 experiment and put those two together in the second row the better. They had one game together and exceeded expectations (at this point Henderson was off form and Treadwell hadn't really impressed) but as per usual with Kiss, they haven't played together since. They could very possibly form the future Irish engine room. Treadwell can also provide the good kick up the rear that Henderson needs, he seems very aggressive in contact and might inspire Henderson to meet the same standard.

Sorry Rory but what experiment? Not only has he picked up quite a few caps there for Ireland and done well but Ulster have a good option of O'Connor there too, there was also a real need for him at 6 this season with Ulsters scarcity there

He hasn't been playing well at 6 for Ulster all season, and when he is playing second row for his country (which Schmidt has been pretty clear on as being his position) you would think that he might play more than 2 games there. Clive Ross has played better games at 6 this season than Henderson for goodness sake. But most importantly, as I have said countless times this season, we haven't had what would be considered close to a settled team all year. How many second row/back row/centre/back three combinations did we try this season?

Henderson/Treadwell had one fantastic game both in the loose and the set piece and then never played together again. That is just moronic beyond belief.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:45 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't think it is harsh. He hasn't been showing much of the aggression he has shown in previous years and he looks a bit unfit. He struggles to beat even a single defender nowadays, he just does a silly little step and then flops to the ground when he meets the defender.

Apparently he has been carrying an elbow injury for a while now and will be rested this weekend so he doesn't get injured before the Lions tour, the same with Rory

First I have heard, but it would explain his lacklustre performances. Not too happy if he has been carrying an injury for a while and been asked to just play through it. I will say that I heard a similar story for Piutau but who knows.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by marty2086 on Thu 04 May 2017, 5:03 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't think it is harsh. He hasn't been showing much of the aggression he has shown in previous years and he looks a bit unfit. He struggles to beat even a single defender nowadays, he just does a silly little step and then flops to the ground when he meets the defender.

Apparently he has been carrying an elbow injury for a while now and will be rested this weekend so he doesn't get injured before the Lions tour, the same with Rory

First I have heard, but it would explain his lacklustre performances. Not too happy if he has been carrying an injury for a while and been asked to just play through it. I will say that I heard a similar story for Piutau but who knows.

From todays press conference, Rory's shoulder isn't 100% and both missed training at the start of the week

I don't disagree about Henderson not being at his best but don't think the problem is his position, which like I've said was more out of necessity, I think it's more to do with the lethargy that is endemic at Ulster

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 04 May 2017, 5:05 pm

No, his position has nothing to do with his poor performances. I am just making the point that our best lock partnership of the year, which for a change actually performed really well in the line-out, was split after only one game. It could be a fantastic pairing given the chance.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by marty2086 on Thu 04 May 2017, 5:08 pm

Until the last few games Treadwell and AOC were a pretty good pairing and I think will be a more than capable pairing next season with Ulster hopefully in a better place, I disagree it was broken up as the need was greater for Henderson to play 6 though I do think he'll be in the second row more next season due to Irelands needs

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 04 May 2017, 9:59 pm

Ulster also have Pete Browne who was on standby for the SA tour, and with VdM on the books, they were positively replete with lock resources. If Henderson wasn't in the backrow Ulster would have been making Mulholland a regular.
If Botha is coming to allow Henderson to play lock exclusively, Ulster are no better off than this season - still needing at least two test class back rows.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 04 May 2017, 10:55 pm

Like I said, Clive flipping Ross had been putting in better performances at 6 than Henderson. I get that he was largely needed at 6 this season due to lack of options, but it is hampering his progress as a player, particularly from an international perspective where he will only ever be considered in the row. He needs to start taking a bit of responsibility at the line-outs and he will get those opportunities best in the engine room. 

Plus, his best game was playing alongside Treadwell. I really do think we need to get those two comfortable playing together in the second row as soon as possible and as long as both are fit and healthy, keep them together. We barely have one established position in the whole team for goodness sake.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by marty2086 on Thu 04 May 2017, 11:10 pm

Rory you keep saying that about Ross but I really dont know what games you watched him play at 6 but they really weren't that good and his best performances were in the early run at the start of the season at 7 then he tailed off dramatically

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Thu 04 May 2017, 11:14 pm

You are not allowed to say big Iain is playing poorly/ to his potential. Its just not allowed. Even though he is clearly playing like a drain.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 04 May 2017, 11:17 pm

marty2086 wrote:Rory you keep saying that about Ross but I really dont know what games you watched him play at 6 but they really weren't that good and his best performances were in the early run at the start of the season at 7 then he tailed off dramatically

He hasn't played as much recently but the games he came on he carried much better than Henderson has all season. And made his tackles and generally shown even a bit of aggression around the field.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Thu 04 May 2017, 11:22 pm

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:You are not allowed to say big Iain is playing poorly/ to his potential. Its just not allowed. Even though he is clearly playing like a drain.

Very true, but as a Munster fan I'm sure you'll admit the biggest disappointment of the year has to be Jack O'Donoghue. What happened there? For all his potential he has had one extremely average season.

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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

Post by profitius on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:40 pm

Rumours that James Ryan will be included in the squad.
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Re: Ireland Summer tour.

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