UK General Election 2017 Thread

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Which party will you be voting for in the General Election?

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Total Votes : 47

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Wed 19 Apr 2017, 11:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ok guys what are your predictions, how will you be voting and who do you want to win.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 5:27 pm

The NHS problems are two fold - they pay too much for sh*t and we've got too many old people. We can reduce the price we pay for stuff by extending patents for medicine, by holding a genuine open order for suppliers rather than "approved suppliers" (in reality a racket for overcharging for the same sh*t you can buy cheaper direct from the source) and we can solve the problem of too much old people by setting them on fire to keep them warm through the winter, by offering little tips here and there to keep their health up and investing where you need to - for example air filter/humidity regulators in the house costing under £200 could cut down illnesses dramatically, organizing health clubs, at 20 quid per person a month could save 5000 pounds on their treatments. A holistic approach is needed, not just a patch up job after the fact. I confess the initial investment would be eye watering but compared to what the future will bring it will be a drop in the ocean.

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Post by Coxy001 on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 5:54 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:The NHS problems are two fold - they pay too much for sh*t and we've got too many old people. We can reduce the price we pay for stuff by extending patents for medicine, by holding a genuine open order for suppliers rather than "approved suppliers" (in reality a racket for overcharging for the same sh*t you can buy cheaper direct from the source) and we can solve the problem of too much old people by setting them on fire to keep them warm through the winter, by offering little tips here and there to keep their health up and investing where you need to - for example air filter/humidity regulators in the house costing under £200 could cut down illnesses dramatically, organizing health clubs, at 20 quid per person a month could save 5000 pounds on their treatments. A holistic approach is needed, not just a patch up job after the fact.  I confess the initial investment would be eye watering but compared to what the future will bring it will be a drop in the ocean.

From what I've observed, when I had a broken bone in my hand, the total scum who waste time their is enormous. The girl before me could 'barely' walk to see the triage nurse yet there was no swelling, no bruising and her mum audibly screamed at him when he apparently said she was not worthy of having an x-ray. He was actually happy to see me with a genuine injury as in his own words "finally, an hour into my shift and I get to apply my training". There needs to be a buffer that stops this sort of Poopie getting near needing to go to hospital, GP's no as they have enough BAU to deal with.

But...

When the Poopie hits the fan our NHS is awesome. The clue as to why it should be reserved for those that need it most is in its title. There is of course human error that creeps in to all forms of life, unfortunately it makes the headlines on the exceptionally rare occasions that it does happen.

Privatising a service that remains free to use? As long as it remains free it will be better for the end user than being a publicly run service that can blow money as much as it wants - it will never have the banks to answer to and is incredibly inefficient to the point it's a joke. Let the government privatise it all and pay them on a contract basis, and let it remain free without drug prices going through the roof as well.

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Post by Ent on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 6:45 pm

Coxy001 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:The NHS problems are two fold - they pay too much for sh*t and we've got too many old people. We can reduce the price we pay for stuff by extending patents for medicine, by holding a genuine open order for suppliers rather than "approved suppliers" (in reality a racket for overcharging for the same sh*t you can buy cheaper direct from the source) and we can solve the problem of too much old people by setting them on fire to keep them warm through the winter, by offering little tips here and there to keep their health up and investing where you need to - for example air filter/humidity regulators in the house costing under £200 could cut down illnesses dramatically, organizing health clubs, at 20 quid per person a month could save 5000 pounds on their treatments. A holistic approach is needed, not just a patch up job after the fact.  I confess the initial investment would be eye watering but compared to what the future will bring it will be a drop in the ocean.

From what I've observed, when I had a broken bone in my hand, the total scum who waste time their is enormous. The girl before me could 'barely' walk to see the triage nurse yet there was no swelling, no bruising and her mum audibly screamed at him when he apparently said she was not worthy of having an x-ray. He was actually happy to see me with a genuine injury as in his own words "finally, an hour into my shift and I get to apply my training". There needs to be a buffer that stops this sort of Poopie getting near needing to go to hospital, GP's no as they have enough BAU to deal with.

But...

When the Poopie hits the fan our NHS is awesome. The clue as to why it should be reserved for those that need it most is in its title. There is of course human error that creeps in to all forms of life, unfortunately it makes the headlines on the exceptionally rare occasions that it does happen.

Privatising a service that remains free to use? As long as it remains free it will be better for the end user than being a publicly run service that can blow money as much as it wants - it will never have the banks to answer to and is incredibly inefficient to the point it's a joke. Let the government privatise it all and pay them on a contract basis, and let it remain free without drug prices going through the roof as well.

Most of the NHS budget is not spent on frontline services e.g. GP has under 10% of the NHS budget. So no matter how many time wasters you think you see in A+E or at the GP they aren't taking that big a whack out of the budget (as annoying as they are). The NHS spends more of it's budget on medicolegal matters than on GP services.

Medicine isn't black and white, people with the most non-specific or benign seeming symptoms can have horrific medical conditions. If people want to see a Doctor as they are concerned about their health then they should be able to.

The NHS is one of the most efficient health care systems in the world, the system you propose would cost the government a horrific amount and severely limit the service. We've seen this already with the current private model and social care where they just say there is no profit in what the government is willing to pay and stop providing a service/withdraw from the contract. 2/3rds of all trusts were in deficit last year - should we make them answer to the banks?

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Post by Crimey on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 6:45 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:RE the NHS isn't it down to the reverse pyramid affect that seems to happen with a lot of government institutions.

There's too many heads/chiefs/executives on larger money and not enough of the smaller workers.

One of the problems with the NHS is that the running of it appears to have been taken over by managers, when it should be run by clinicians.

There needs to be a balance I feel. Clinicians don't always make the best managers and putting them into management positions can often not only make the management worse, but takes talented clinicians out of their best position. Ideally a combination of managers who know how to manage and clinicians who understand the science should be used, but the problem is neither wants to work with the other as both feel the other is useful. A bit of positive collaboration would be great. 

I don't think a privatised healthcare system would even be able to avoid the same problems. Private companies often fall into the same trap which is promoting people who are good at their job into management positions despite not having the management skills to succeed. Then also bringing in management who either doesn't want to or can't bring themselves to learn about the everyday challenges of their employees, so that when they make decisions that management have to, they are informed decisions and they can also communicate to everybody why they have made that decision. 

Too often people are competitive about things that aren't a competition. 

The way the NHS could avoid running into resentment of management from clinicians is to sort out the banded pay system. At the moment Band 7 and above are generally management, meaning if you are good at your job but wouldn't make a good manager your ability to move up in pay ends up being stunted. Hence people not suited to management either being put in management positions or external people being brought in who struggle to fit into the culture and have resentment from the lower bands for "stealing" a position. 

The bands should instead be split when getting into higher positions, those that are suited to management can go into management, those who are not but are good at their job and stick around for a long time can still move up in pay but stay in clinician positions.

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Post by Ent on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 6:53 pm

Clinicians don't make good managers because they want to spend money on healthcare.

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Post by Crimey on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 7:25 pm

Ent wrote:Clinicians don't make good managers because they want to spend money on healthcare.

I mean there are a couple layers of management in NHS before you get to the ones who have to decide what to spend money on. And there is a lot of people in those levels who are good scientists and clinicians who have pursued higher positions for the pay and got them despite not being great at managing staff.

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Post by Ent on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 9:59 pm

My remark was somewhat tongue in cheek and management often attracts the wrong type from a clinical background- not many clinicians want to give up clinical commitments.

Whilst management is an issue it is difficult, the NHS is a vast organisation one of the top 5 employers in the world.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 10:03 pm

TBH, I'd rather great clinicians making management decisions when perhaps not the best at it, than inept managers making 'clinical' decisions when they have not the slightest idea. I'd rather (I think) excellent clinicians make decisions for the 'right' reasons, even if it's perhaps inefficient in a managerial sense.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 10:05 pm

Basically, we don't pay enough for a modern NHS, despite everyone whining that it has to stay essentially as a public service. Extra, ring-fenced, penny or so on income tax - how much would that raise per year? As long as it's not simply trousered as pay increases though....
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Post by Ent on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 10:51 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:TBH, I'd rather great clinicians making management decisions when perhaps not the best at it, than inept managers making 'clinical' decisions when they have not the slightest idea. I'd rather (I think) excellent clinicians make decisions for the 'right' reasons, even if it's perhaps inefficient in a managerial sense.

You take them away from their clinical duties then - and the longer they are away the less they have their finger on the pulse.

Then some DOH civil servant is banging on at them about targets not being met and all their good intentions go out the window.

We've lost 12,000 (or about 9%) of hospital beds since the conservatives got back into power - there weren't enough in 2010....

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 8:20 am

Ent wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:TBH, I'd rather great clinicians making management decisions when perhaps not the best at it, than inept managers making 'clinical' decisions when they have not the slightest idea. I'd rather (I think) excellent clinicians make decisions for the 'right' reasons, even if it's perhaps inefficient in a managerial sense.

You take them away from their clinical duties then - and the longer they are away the less they have their finger on the pulse.

Then some DOH civil servant is banging on at them about targets not being met and all their good intentions go out the window.

We've lost 12,000 (or about 9%) of hospital beds since the conservatives got back into power - there weren't enough in 2010....

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/
Yeah. Bummer eh? No easy solutions.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 11:42 am

There are some easy solutions actually, or rather not easy but responsibility falls upon others than government. There are now apps that provide health tips pretty much immediately after taking a drop of blood and suggesting actions that don't require medication. For example it might suggest drinking some water and walk for 15 minutes as an immediate response to symptoms. If pharmaceutical companies could be persuaded to take this on board and turn it into a full treatment package then they could be relied on to do it more efficiently. Not just because it would be good for their reputation or they could access pretty reliable data directly but because they will need to maintain adequate funds to make it worth investing in new medicine. Otherwise these apps will take it away from and the reduction in their medicine sales will bite to the detriment of all. This way they can practically control the manufacturing to demand within an accuracy of a few thousand and the government subsidies would make up the shortfall for their medicine sales. Either adapt or be destroyed by technology. This will allow specialists to work directly with people in their field and learn directly through trial and error how to prevent adverse events. I know there would need to be serious oversight of the companies to prevent them from just selling their medicine to any old sod even if he doesn't need it but if you could link it to long term patents which are granted but also can be taken away in the event of misbehaviour you could keep them honest. No one will want to make a few million bucks extra a year when the potential loss is billions over a longer period. The data can also be used to whittle out people who are of certain characteristics and generally respond better to one type of treatment over another also eliminating waste for the government in paying for treatments that don't work. Again...massive investments needed initially but when it becomes the norm it will take the long term sick off the NHS hands and into specialists care who improve with every patient due to statistical and medical analysis allowing identification of common characteristics.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 12:17 pm

I'm voting Conservative and I'm hoping like hell they win. Keir Starmer made it abundantly clear in his election campaign speech that labour will effectively scrap Brexit, if they are elected.

You cannot leave the EU and remain in the single market and allow freedom of movement...and still remain under the control of the EU in so many fundamental areas.

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Post by GSC on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 12:22 pm

Better from Jezza at pmqs, though he could still do with pressing May on single topics rather than switching topic every question.

Needed a big win, not sure he close to that though
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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 12:29 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Ent wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:TBH, I'd rather great clinicians making management decisions when perhaps not the best at it, than inept managers making 'clinical' decisions when they have not the slightest idea. I'd rather (I think) excellent clinicians make decisions for the 'right' reasons, even if it's perhaps inefficient in a managerial sense.

You take them away from their clinical duties then - and the longer they are away the less they have their finger on the pulse.

Then some DOH civil servant is banging on at them about targets not being met and all their good intentions go out the window.

We've lost 12,000 (or about 9%) of hospital beds since the conservatives got back into power - there weren't enough in 2010....

https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/
Yeah. Bummer eh? No easy solutions.


If there were, I'm sure someone would have thought of it by now. Wink

I know one thing for sure...simply throwing ever-increasing amounts of money isn't the solution. For one thing, Labour under Blair and Brown showed it didn't work and for another, its just not sustainable.

I think some kind of root and branch re-organisation is needed...maybe not unlike the Beeching review of the railways (though without a mass closure of hospitals). But it needs someone independent, with a business / economic brain who can not only get hospitals working more efficiently, but also figure out how they should link up with social care services, GPs, ambulance services etc. as well as making procurement of equipment and pharmaceuticals more efficient. Obviously with input from senior medical staff, GPs etc.

Its a hell of a tricky problem and I wouldn't envy anyone tasked with solving it.

For what its worth, I don't think putting hospitals under the control of private contractors is the way forward. They tried that with one of my local hospitals (Hinchingbrooke) and a company called Circle, who only succeeded in putting it deep into debt while lowering the quality of care it provided.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 12:34 pm

You might end up regretting that Dyre because if Navy is right and May is using this election to isolate and dilute the power of the Brexit wing, You'll probably get what you dread. An EU associate membership that doesn't give you any of the things you voted for except in a cosmetic fashion and also losing any say in the decisions the EU takes. Like Turkey, constrained by the rules of origin and waiting for hours and days on end to get your stuff into the EU. Again tariffs are a small part of the loss, having to introduce quotas on the stuff we can export to the EU, the jams at customs because neither we or the European ports have a customs border point that can handle the amount of traffic between us and the favourable agreements that won't be so favourable once we're a smaller market.

It's a numbers game and that's why the EU, China, India and the US have the most amount of negotiation power. Even the Crazy orangutan is beginning to learn that hence his toning down of rhetoric and increasing receptiveness to the EU and China. Whereas we've manage to upset the Chinese and the Indians. The former because they don't like surprises and Brexit was a big decking surprise and we manage to embarrass the premier by delaying their investment into the nuclear facility. The latter because first we effectively vetoed their trade deal with the EU because of immigration fears and secondly because May publicly rejected their visas request as a precursor to any deal. Then there was all that rot with their students. Overall the UK is not turning into a xenophobic place..not more than it already was. But the politicians like May have taken it as such and are responding accordingly. Now we have to deal with countries who know that their students and workers are not welcome and with whom we will soon have to renegotiate bilateral treaties. If we don't grovel and concede big concessions we aren't going to get anywhere. Witness the fox grovelling to Dutarte and see the future. No doubt eventually we will recover but even the EU acknowledge's that by 2050 they will only be 5% of world trade. What will the UK be?

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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 12:35 pm

GSC wrote:Better from Jezza at pmqs, though he could still do with pressing May on single topics rather than switching topic every question.

Needed a big win, not sure he close to that though


I'm not sure there'd be much point in pressing on single questions, as she (like most politicians) just gives re-worded versions of the same answer. Plus they probably have an agenda worked out in advance, that they have to follow.
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Post by GSC on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 12:43 pm

Make her worm her way out of it 6 times then.

It's probably the biggest thing that puts me off Corbyn, he has no killer instinct when presented with open goals.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 12:44 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:You might end up regretting that Dyre because if Navy is right and May is using this election to isolate and dilute the power of the Brexit wing, You'll probably get what you dread. An EU associate membership that doesn't give you any of the things you voted for except in a cosmetic fashion and also losing any say in the decisions the EU takes. Like Turkey, constrained by the rules of origin and waiting for hours and days on end to get your stuff into the EU. Again tariffs are a small part of the loss, having to introduce quotas on the stuff we can export to the EU, the jams at customs because neither we or the European ports have a customs border point that can handle the amount of traffic between us and the favourable agreements that won't be so favourable once we're a smaller market.

It's a numbers game and that's why the EU, China, India and the US have the most amount of negotiation power. Even the Crazy orangutan is beginning to learn that hence his toning down of rhetoric and increasing receptiveness to the EU and China. Whereas we've manage to upset the Chinese and the Indians.  The former because they don't like surprises and Brexit was a big decking surprise and we manage to embarrass the premier by delaying their investment into the nuclear facility. The latter because first we effectively vetoed their trade deal with the EU because of immigration fears and secondly because May publicly rejected their visas request as a precursor to any deal. Then there was all that rot with their students. Overall the UK is not turning into a xenophobic place..not more than it already was. But the politicians like May have taken it as such and are responding accordingly. Now we have to deal with countries who know that their students and workers are not welcome and with whom we will soon have to renegotiate bilateral treaties. If we don't grovel and concede big concessions we aren't going to get anywhere. Witness the fox grovelling to Dutarte and see the future. No doubt eventually we will recover but even the EU acknowledge's that by 2050 they will only be 5% of world trade. What will the UK be?


Thats a strange assumption by Navy. You sure you read his post right? I was under the impression she wanted to use the election to consolidate the Conservatives' control and basically give them a mandate to proceed with Brexit under their terms.

Theresa May has already said more than once that, "no deal is better than a bad deal". I.e. a clean break is preferable to a compromise that keeps us tied to the EU...which is what Labour are going to do anyway.

Most of what you're saying is pure assumption as negotiations haven't even begun yet, so we have no way of knowing what the final outcome is. Like Navy you're basically assuming the worst will come to pass.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 12:47 pm

GSC wrote:Make her worm her way out of it 6 times then.

It's probably the biggest thing that puts me off Corbyn, he has no killer instinct when presented with open goals.

My point was he probably has a set list of questions he has to get through, so he can't waste time going over the same thing repeatedly.

PMQs is run to a fairly tight schedule, you know.

But yeah, I do agree even if he did have the time, he's probably too nice to "go Paxman" on her. Wink
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Post by GSC on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 1:01 pm

Hes the leader of the opposition, if he can't decide what to ask, who can
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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 2:05 pm

Personally, I think it's the job of the speaker to make the PM answer the questions she's asked in PMQs.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 2:15 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:You might end up regretting that Dyre because if Navy is right and May is using this election to isolate and dilute the power of the Brexit wing, You'll probably get what you dread. An EU associate membership that doesn't give you any of the things you voted for except in a cosmetic fashion and also losing any say in the decisions the EU takes. Like Turkey, constrained by the rules of origin and waiting for hours and days on end to get your stuff into the EU. Again tariffs are a small part of the loss, having to introduce quotas on the stuff we can export to the EU, the jams at customs because neither we or the European ports have a customs border point that can handle the amount of traffic between us and the favourable agreements that won't be so favourable once we're a smaller market.

It's a numbers game and that's why the EU, China, India and the US have the most amount of negotiation power. Even the Crazy orangutan is beginning to learn that hence his toning down of rhetoric and increasing receptiveness to the EU and China. Whereas we've manage to upset the Chinese and the Indians.  The former because they don't like surprises and Brexit was a big decking surprise and we manage to embarrass the premier by delaying their investment into the nuclear facility. The latter because first we effectively vetoed their trade deal with the EU because of immigration fears and secondly because May publicly rejected their visas request as a precursor to any deal. Then there was all that rot with their students. Overall the UK is not turning into a xenophobic place..not more than it already was. But the politicians like May have taken it as such and are responding accordingly. Now we have to deal with countries who know that their students and workers are not welcome and with whom we will soon have to renegotiate bilateral treaties. If we don't grovel and concede big concessions we aren't going to get anywhere. Witness the fox grovelling to Dutarte and see the future. No doubt eventually we will recover but even the EU acknowledge's that by 2050 they will only be 5% of world trade. What will the UK be?


Thats a strange assumption by Navy. You sure you read his post right? I was under the impression she wanted to use the election to consolidate the Conservatives' control and basically give them a mandate to proceed with Brexit under their terms.

Theresa May has already said more than once that, "no deal is better than a bad deal". I.e. a clean break is preferable to a compromise that keeps us tied to the EU...which is what Labour are going to do anyway.

Most of what you're saying is pure assumption as negotiations haven't even begun yet, so we have no way of knowing what the final outcome is. Like Navy you're basically assuming the worst will come to pass.
To be clear, what I suggested is that May could well be bored with carping from the ultra-right of her party and was on the fence over Brexit herself. If she wins big, she can tell the Tory Brexit wingnuts to shut up and/or tone it down as she has her own mandate. If so, she may well going softer on the Brexit deal. With such a mandate, she might also re-think the positions of some of the wingnuts. I'm not saying that's what'll happen, but it could if she has a massively increased majority come June 9th.
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Post by GSC on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 2:17 pm

Actually suits Corbyn more if he pressed the issue.

Anyway Labour have said Corbyn won't be turning up to debates if May doesn't either.
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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 2:35 pm

Which is fair, I think. May is being a coward.

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Post by Derbymanc on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 2:59 pm

Should do a bit of showmanship and debate with an empty chair. Loads of opportunities to rip the pee as well then

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Post by Ent on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 4:13 pm

He would probably lose that debate...

May is doing what Brown should have done in 2010 and told people to stuff their TV debate - they only benefit the non sitting parties.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 4:44 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:You might end up regretting that Dyre because if Navy is right and May is using this election to isolate and dilute the power of the Brexit wing, You'll probably get what you dread. An EU associate membership that doesn't give you any of the things you voted for except in a cosmetic fashion and also losing any say in the decisions the EU takes. Like Turkey, constrained by the rules of origin and waiting for hours and days on end to get your stuff into the EU. Again tariffs are a small part of the loss, having to introduce quotas on the stuff we can export to the EU, the jams at customs because neither we or the European ports have a customs border point that can handle the amount of traffic between us and the favourable agreements that won't be so favourable once we're a smaller market.

It's a numbers game and that's why the EU, China, India and the US have the most amount of negotiation power. Even the Crazy orangutan is beginning to learn that hence his toning down of rhetoric and increasing receptiveness to the EU and China. Whereas we've manage to upset the Chinese and the Indians.  The former because they don't like surprises and Brexit was a big decking surprise and we manage to embarrass the premier by delaying their investment into the nuclear facility. The latter because first we effectively vetoed their trade deal with the EU because of immigration fears and secondly because May publicly rejected their visas request as a precursor to any deal. Then there was all that rot with their students. Overall the UK is not turning into a xenophobic place..not more than it already was. But the politicians like May have taken it as such and are responding accordingly. Now we have to deal with countries who know that their students and workers are not welcome and with whom we will soon have to renegotiate bilateral treaties. If we don't grovel and concede big concessions we aren't going to get anywhere. Witness the fox grovelling to Dutarte and see the future. No doubt eventually we will recover but even the EU acknowledge's that by 2050 they will only be 5% of world trade. What will the UK be?


Thats a strange assumption by Navy. You sure you read his post right? I was under the impression she wanted to use the election to consolidate the Conservatives' control and basically give them a mandate to proceed with Brexit under their terms.

Theresa May has already said more than once that, "no deal is better than a bad deal". I.e. a clean break is preferable to a compromise that keeps us tied to the EU...which is what Labour are going to do anyway.

Most of what you're saying is pure assumption as negotiations haven't even begun yet, so we have no way of knowing what the final outcome is. Like Navy you're basically assuming the worst will come to pass.

The worst thing that could happen is a "clean" brexit. The second worst is the EU associate membership, giving access to our market without our interests being given consideration. The major problem with a clean brexit is that the eu has thousands of trade deals, little ones, big ones, bilateral, industry specific, custom unions, trading blocs the fulls works when we leave we would have to renegotiate with all these countries from a reverse stand point. Give us such and such or we will not continue to give you access to this from which you make 15 billion a year. That will be replicated worldwide as we scramble desperately to hold on to what scant access we have left. We can't even hide our priorities as the opposing negotiators will know where we profit most from and threaten to withdraw access to that particular area for concessions in others - that will also lead to nations with conflicting interests or interests in the same industries trying to leverage exclusive access which will probably mean success in one negotiation means certain failure in 5 others. It will be like that Piranha show for Roosevelt - fishes kept hungry for days are presented with the dead corpse of a cow and strip it to the bone in a feeding frenzy.  

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/27/brexit-is-a-god-given-opportunity-to-steal-trade-from-uk-wilbur-ross.html



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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:02 pm

Labour has to do a Trump and go populist...........Cameron did it in 2007 when Brown was about to go to the Country with a ten point lead....."Inheritance Tax cut"...."Tax breaks for married couples"..."The big Society".....etc etc..

Labour are toast so promise the Earth........Why not ???

Get a few people that don't normally vote off their ass...........

"Raise the minimum wage to £10......"
"Pump £8 billion into the NHS"........."
"Say they are going to build a wall around Bognor Regis"..... Wink

Why not go for it..........You are getting creamed anyway...

i won't be voting Labour this time...But I hope they do better than expected because a big Conservative majority is a worry to anyone of Liberal disposition..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 27 Apr 2017, 11:29 pm

ICM. G.E.poll ..Cons 48..Labour 27...Lib 10

Wales...Labour 28  (-9) Con 26 (+13)

Yougov..Europe..."If there was another Referendum??"

Stay 45....Brexit 43...

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 28 Apr 2017, 8:58 am

Ent wrote:He would probably lose that debate...

May is doing what Brown should have done in 2010 and told people to stuff their TV debate - they only benefit the non sitting parties.
...and they're scheiss as well.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 28 Apr 2017, 9:12 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Ent wrote:He would probably lose that debate...

May is doing what Brown should have done in 2010 and told people to stuff their TV debate - they only benefit the non sitting parties.
...and they're scheiss as well.

You would have to know what these Parties stand for to know if they were crap.

Hard to breakthrough when you get little or no publicity.

I find Caroline Lucas hugely impressive...When does she get invited on anything ??.

Think you are being harsh.

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Post by Crimey on Fri 28 Apr 2017, 9:12 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:ICM. G.E.poll ..Cons 48..Labour 27...Lib 10

Wales...Labour 28  (-9) Con 26 (+13)

Yougov..Europe..."If there was another Referendum??"

Stay 45....Brexit 43...

Not going to believe the polls this time, especially when it comes to voting Conservative and voting Brexit. For whatever reason it does seem that people are generally more cautious about admitting that they want to vote Conservative (as we saw in 2015) and voting for Brexit. The latter is even worse now due to the raised tensions following the result.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 28 Apr 2017, 9:32 am

Best thing to do is look at the trend.....Online polls had Brexit winning....Most polls had Clinton by 4 to 6 points (She won by 3)...They got it wrong in the rust belt however.

The truth will be hiding in one or more of the polls but I understand your sceptical view....

According to polls the Tories look set to win 7 seats in Scotland off the SNP...The last bastion of Socialism is crumbling it seems.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 28 Apr 2017, 10:24 am

Coxy001 wrote:The electorate won't vote in a communist, pure and simple. Corbyn isn't a decent guy, he's spent his entire political career going against capitalism and this country will never ever be full of socialist numpties or believe in such crap.

How's Venezuela going for those that are?

Tory landslide. UKIP no more. Just hope the tories can move a bit more back to the centre ground after all this.

The use of the word "Numpties" is quite apt..............Here is a quiz for you...

1. Which Country in the 90s had 100% inflation.......Soaring crime figures........Huge levels of Poverty and Presidents leaving office after enriching themselves to the sum of 250 million was it ??

A. VENEZUALA.................B. Some other Country..


2. The last three recessions in the USA came during the terms of Herbert Hoover....George Bush Jr and George Bush Sr....Were they ??

A. CONSERVATIVE............B. Something else.


3. Black Wednesday in 1992 happened under which party ???

A. CONSERVATIVE...............B. Another party.


The electorate aren't voting for a Communist........Britain has a communist party.


Best maybe for you to read instead of contributing.............Just an idea ??

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 28 Apr 2017, 12:04 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Ent wrote:He would probably lose that debate...

May is doing what Brown should have done in 2010 and told people to stuff their TV debate - they only benefit the non sitting parties.
...and they're scheiss as well.

You would have to know what these Parties stand for to know if they were crap.

Hard to breakthrough when you get little or no publicity.

I find Caroline Lucas hugely impressive...When does she get invited on anything ??.

Think you are being harsh.
No, I mean TV 'debates' of this type are scheiss.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 28 Apr 2017, 12:05 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Ent wrote:He would probably lose that debate...

May is doing what Brown should have done in 2010 and told people to stuff their TV debate - they only benefit the non sitting parties.
...and they're scheiss as well.

You would have to know what these Parties stand for to know if they were crap.

Hard to breakthrough when you get little or no publicity.

I find Caroline Lucas hugely impressive...When does she get invited on anything ??.

Think you are being harsh.
No, I mean TV 'debates' of this type are scheiss.

I apologise for the misinterpretation... thumbsup

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 28 Apr 2017, 3:26 pm

No worries. If they were hosted by decent anchors who held the politicians' feet to the fire when they prevaricate or avoid answering, I'd probably watch them....but it never happens, so they're scheiss. I don't like Paxman, but if someone like him was doing the grilling and they were long enough to really explore issues, that might work. Trouble is, too many have the attention span of a fruit fly...
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 02 May 2017, 11:48 am

Wonder if the two guys voting for Sinn Fein realise they don't usually field Candidates in places like Liverpool and Manchester.. Wink

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Post by Hero on Tue 02 May 2017, 12:04 pm

Diane Abbott looking like one of the stumbling contenders on Dragons Den this morning.

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Post by GSC on Tue 02 May 2017, 1:03 pm

Labour keep promising to spend all over the shop. Not entirely sure where all this money is going to realistically keep coming from (beyond the usual corporations are evil and dont pay taxes spiel everyone spits out at election time)
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 02 May 2017, 1:54 pm

Maybe they have located the 8 billion the Tories promised to give the NHS..

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 02 May 2017, 2:19 pm

yeah it's been used for the wage rises that the labour mp's and lib dems agreed to (as did the tories) ;-)

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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 03 May 2017, 1:02 pm

GSC wrote:Labour keep promising to spend all over the shop. Not entirely sure where all this money is going to realistically keep coming from (beyond the usual corporations are evil and dont pay taxes spiel everyone spits out at election time)

Thats the other reason I can't bring myself to vote Labour. I don't think they'd be any more effective in closing the tax loopholes the likes of Google use to avoid paying huge amounts of corporation tax, so as usual they'd milk ordinary working people (the people they are supposedly championing).

And that was even before Diane Abbot's howler.

The other reason is they are sounding like a bunch of hypocrites, avoiding answering any questions about their election pledges and instead attacking the Tories for not answering the same kind of questions, (both sides currently giving variations on the, "wait until our manifesto is published", theme).

Give me a "bloody difficult woman" to fight our corner against the EU Commission, rather than an appeaser who would see us rejoin the club ASAP...possibly under worse terms and conditions (for having the audacity to vote leave in the first place).

Everything I've heard and read from Juncker and co to this point, tells me the EU are prepared to play hardball and make things as difficult as possible, so I don't see why we should be any more reasonable.
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Post by superflyweight on Wed 03 May 2017, 1:19 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
GSC wrote:Labour keep promising to spend all over the shop. Not entirely sure where all this money is going to realistically keep coming from (beyond the usual corporations are evil and dont pay taxes spiel everyone spits out at election time)

Thats the other reason I can't bring myself to vote Labour. I don't think they'd be any more effective in closing the tax loopholes the likes of Google use to avoid paying huge amounts of corporation tax, so as usual they'd milk ordinary working people (the people they are supposedly championing).

And that was even before Diane Abbot's howler.

The other reason is they are sounding like a bunch of hypocrites, avoiding answering any questions about their election pledges and instead attacking the Tories for not answering the same kind of questions, (both sides currently giving variations on the, "wait until our manifesto is published", theme).

Give me a "bloody difficult woman" to fight our corner against the EU Commission, rather than an appeaser who would see us rejoin the club ASAP...possibly under worse terms and conditions (for having the audacity to vote leave in the first place).

Everything I've heard and read from Juncker and co to this point, tells me the EU are prepared to play hardball and make things as difficult as possible, so I don't see why we should be any more reasonable.

We need them more than they need us.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 03 May 2017, 8:37 pm

superflyweight wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
GSC wrote:Labour keep promising to spend all over the shop. Not entirely sure where all this money is going to realistically keep coming from (beyond the usual corporations are evil and dont pay taxes spiel everyone spits out at election time)

Thats the other reason I can't bring myself to vote Labour. I don't think they'd be any more effective in closing the tax loopholes the likes of Google use to avoid paying huge amounts of corporation tax, so as usual they'd milk ordinary working people (the people they are supposedly championing).

And that was even before Diane Abbot's howler.

The other reason is they are sounding like a bunch of hypocrites, avoiding answering any questions about their election pledges and instead attacking the Tories for not answering the same kind of questions, (both sides currently giving variations on the, "wait until our manifesto is published", theme).

Give me a "bloody difficult woman" to fight our corner against the EU Commission, rather than an appeaser who would see us rejoin the club ASAP...possibly under worse terms and conditions (for having the audacity to vote leave in the first place).

Everything I've heard and read from Juncker and co to this point, tells me the EU are prepared to play hardball and make things as difficult as possible, so I don't see why we should be any more reasonable.

We need them more than they need us.  

Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

What?

Are you saying the Daily mail is full of sh*t?


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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 9:27 am

UKIP wiped out in the locals, Labour haemorrhaging seats, Lib Dems making no headway. Suspect today might qualify as a good morning for May.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 05 May 2017, 9:34 am

Not sure how happy I am to see UKIP wiped out. As much as I dislike Kippers, it was nice to know they were all in one place, their losses now really just reflect a move from the facist right finding comfort in the harder right Tory party of old.

When UKIP had seats, they had representation but no power. Now those same views have the power of the incumbent government as their new home.

Was betting on JC outperforming polls, not so sure now. Somewhat praying for utter decimation and GE2020 (which hasn't been removed as far as I'm aware) being fought by someone vastly more competent with the abiltity to unite more than a handful of arch communists and hard left Momentum numpties.

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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 9:36 am

Is it 5 years from the formation of a new parliament under the fixed term act (whatever that's worth now)?
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 05 May 2017, 9:58 am

GSC wrote:Is it 5 years from the formation of a new parliament under the fixed term act (whatever that's worth now)?

My understanding was that the FTA set out parliaments every 5 years and if a GE was to be held at any other time in the interim then it had to be ratified by HofC, as happened in this case. I thought therefore that June 8th would be an 'interim' GE, not resetting the clock. Could well be wrong though. Hope not.

Might find by 2020 we'll have got to a point on Brexit negotiations that a new GE and mandate will be required.....

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