UK General Election 2017 Thread

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Which party will you be voting for in the General Election?

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Total Votes : 47

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Wed 19 Apr 2017, 11:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ok guys what are your predictions, how will you be voting and who do you want to win.

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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 10:20 am

May seemed to be talking as though this GE will get them through post Brexit negotiations which I doubt would be settled within 2 years
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 05 May 2017, 10:58 am

Don't they technically 'have' to be done within 2 years from Article 50 trigger?? (NB: every Remain voter new this was horse-sh!t, but the Brexiteers believed it like the NHS battle bus)

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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 10:59 am

They can extend it if both sides agree I think
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 05 May 2017, 11:03 am

Both sides agreeing? Feels like an unachievable Nirvana.....

Did read an interesting article on City AM about how, secretly, the EU negotiators realise that no deal is better than a bad deal for us, Mexican stanf-off anyone??

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:03 pm

Tories even winning seats in Glasgow! F*ck me.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:12 pm

I'd love to understand Corbyn's reasoning behind staying as Labour leader, he's single handedly ensured that the tories will have an overwhelming majority.

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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:18 pm

Goes without saying that its not positive for Labour. Not a great sign for the SNP if the SNP vs Tories battle can be loosely defined Indy vs remain.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:29 pm

Tory strong gains in Scotland, SNP mild gain, Labour strong losses.

Indications (if you ever can truly take anything from local elections) are that SNP will underperform 2015 GE and 2016 Holyrood.

Maybe a bit like UKIP who are dead because they were a one trick pony and that trick has been won, SNP were focussed mainly around one issue and support for that is waning slightly (indyref2).

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:44 pm

There genuinely is no end to the pile of pooh Diana Abbott tries to get away with speaking:

Shadow home secretary Diane Abbott has just repeated her claim that "We represent the six most anti-Brexit constituencies and the six most pro".

We've looked at this one before.

We reckon the best estimates available suggest that two of the six most pro-Remain constituencies have SNP MPs, while three of the six most pro-Leave constituencies have Conservative MPs.
BBC

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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:51 pm

UKIP can't defend any of their own seats but manage to take one from Labour
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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:53 pm

Will Corbyn actually go. If he doesnt, a split in the party might be required. He has the support of the members, but the members are proving to be an extreme minority amongst the general public.

Agreeing to a coalition of sorts might have been their best bet
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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 1:12 pm

That said this result is entirely the fault of blairites, corporations and/or the biased media.
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Post by Crimey on Fri 05 May 2017, 1:17 pm

I just can't understand why both here and America, the poor seem to be voting for people/parties that directly go against their own interests. It's baffling. 

I appreciate that people may not want to vote for Labour because of the problems there, but why switch to Conservatives?

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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 1:23 pm

For one thing, people's interests rarely fully align with 1 party anyway. You usually end up compromising on some things.
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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 1:24 pm

Most people tend not to follow politics all that closely anyhow. Headlines and highlights grab their attention more than details.
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Post by Crimey on Fri 05 May 2017, 1:49 pm

I agree, but I'm just not sure what the Conservatives are selling right now that people are buying. I suspected there would be more apathy with politics in general, allowing Conservatives to essentially work through because of the disillusion around Labour but all signs are pointing to them dominating British politics. 

I genuinely fear, not just for this country, but the entire world that there is a real swing to the right at the moment. In a time where our differences should becoming less of an issue as the world generally grows more intelligent and better at critical thinking as well as more connected on a global level with the internet, it seems that the world is swinging violently in the other direction instead. 

Conservatives have managed to wipe out UKIP by basically becoming much closer to UKIP. Theresa May is a very opportunistic politician at the end of the day, I cannot believe there is so much confidence in her from the electorate. She was a bad Home Secretary and is one of the more opportunistic politicians we've seen in recent years. She's given no reason for anybody to be particularly confident in her.

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Post by Scottrf on Fri 05 May 2017, 2:05 pm

Conservatives are selling leadership.

People don't have confidence in any of the other parties for that whatever their message. For Labour to not replace Corbyn is suicide. By a thousand cuts it seems.

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Post by superflyweight on Fri 05 May 2017, 2:30 pm

Scottrf wrote:Conservatives are selling leadership.

People don't have confidence in any of the other parties for that whatever their message. For Labour to not replace Corbyn is suicide. By a thousand cuts it seems.

Or 3,485,276 if you're Dianne Abbott.

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Post by rodders on Fri 05 May 2017, 2:57 pm

Crimey wrote:I agree, but I'm just not sure what the Conservatives are selling right now that people are buying.

Well they are selling fear and using the usual Tory divide and conquer of the working/middle classes tactics to help do it. To be fair to Theresa she's doing a good job of it.

Fear of the EU, foreigners, islam, Corbin, Merkel, Junker, Assad, Putin and every other bogey man they can come up with to make people embrace the status quo (strong and stable Smile) and march onward to economic and social oblivion with a smile on the face and a flag in the hand.
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Post by Scottrf on Fri 05 May 2017, 2:59 pm

rodders wrote:strong and stable

Now where have I heard that phrase before censored

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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 3:31 pm

Might be a few alarm bells going off at SNP HQ with the Tories making gains in Scotland on a predominantly pro union stance.

That Indy ref demand might end up helping May.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 May 2017, 3:33 pm

superflyweight wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
GSC wrote:Labour keep promising to spend all over the shop. Not entirely sure where all this money is going to realistically keep coming from (beyond the usual corporations are evil and dont pay taxes spiel everyone spits out at election time)

Thats the other reason I can't bring myself to vote Labour. I don't think they'd be any more effective in closing the tax loopholes the likes of Google use to avoid paying huge amounts of corporation tax, so as usual they'd milk ordinary working people (the people they are supposedly championing).

And that was even before Diane Abbot's howler.

The other reason is they are sounding like a bunch of hypocrites, avoiding answering any questions about their election pledges and instead attacking the Tories for not answering the same kind of questions, (both sides currently giving variations on the, "wait until our manifesto is published", theme).

Give me a "bloody difficult woman" to fight our corner against the EU Commission, rather than an appeaser who would see us rejoin the club ASAP...possibly under worse terms and conditions (for having the audacity to vote leave in the first place).

Everything I've heard and read from Juncker and co to this point, tells me the EU are prepared to play hardball and make things as difficult as possible, so I don't see why we should be any more reasonable.

We need them more than they need us.  


Thats what they want you to think. Seems some are obviously more easily brainwashed than others. laughing

Even if that were true, thats no reason for us to drop our trousers and bend over for them.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 May 2017, 3:37 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Don't they technically 'have' to be done within 2 years from Article 50 trigger?? (NB: every Remain voter new this was horse-sh!t, but the Brexiteers believed it like the NHS battle bus)

2 years is the nominal period, but an extension can be applied if agreed by both sides. Hoping it won't come to that though.

Also, FYI this is one Brexiteer who knew the "NHS battle Bus" was a crock from the start. We're not ALL mindless jingoistic Little Englanders you know. Rolling Eyes
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Post by Ent on Fri 05 May 2017, 3:40 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
GSC wrote:Labour keep promising to spend all over the shop. Not entirely sure where all this money is going to realistically keep coming from (beyond the usual corporations are evil and dont pay taxes spiel everyone spits out at election time)

Thats the other reason I can't bring myself to vote Labour. I don't think they'd be any more effective in closing the tax loopholes the likes of Google use to avoid paying huge amounts of corporation tax, so as usual they'd milk ordinary working people (the people they are supposedly championing).

And that was even before Diane Abbot's howler.

The other reason is they are sounding like a bunch of hypocrites, avoiding answering any questions about their election pledges and instead attacking the Tories for not answering the same kind of questions, (both sides currently giving variations on the, "wait until our manifesto is published", theme).

Give me a "bloody difficult woman" to fight our corner against the EU Commission, rather than an appeaser who would see us rejoin the club ASAP...possibly under worse terms and conditions (for having the audacity to vote leave in the first place).

Everything I've heard and read from Juncker and co to this point, tells me the EU are prepared to play hardball and make things as difficult as possible, so I don't see why we should be any more reasonable.

We need them more than they need us.  


Thats what they want you to think. Seems some are obviously more easily brainwashed than others. laughing

Even if that were true, thats no reason for us to drop our trousers and bend over for them.

How can the UK play hard ball when leaving? They have nothing to offer - the UK market is already incredibly open.

The UK had a great deal as a member of the EU, the terms they get now will not resemble that in any shape or form.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 May 2017, 3:42 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Both sides agreeing? Feels like an unachievable Nirvana.....

Did read an interesting article on City AM about how, secretly, the EU negotiators realise that no deal is better than a bad deal for us, Mexican stanf-off anyone??

Well it depends on whether the EU Commission sees any value in retaining ties with the UK. Do we have anything they particularly want continued access to, whether thats goods, services, political influence, military capability?

If both sides know we're better off just walking away, rather than settling for an unfavourable deal, surely its in the EU's interests to not try and screw us over (assuming we are reasonable in our requests)?

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Post by Crimey on Fri 05 May 2017, 3:45 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Both sides agreeing? Feels like an unachievable Nirvana.....

Did read an interesting article on City AM about how, secretly, the EU negotiators realise that no deal is better than a bad deal for us, Mexican stanf-off anyone??

Well it depends on whether the EU Commission sees any value in retaining ties with the UK. Do we have anything they particularly want continued access to, whether thats goods, services, political influence, military capability?

If both sides know we're better off just walking away, rather than settling for an unfavourable deal, surely its in the EU's interests to not try and screw us over (assuming we are reasonable in our requests)?


Not necessarily. UK will be used to set a precedent. Otherwise other countries will consider leaving the EU, making UK the scapegoat is the easiest way to keep the rest of the EU together. If the UK gets a particularly good deal, other countries will see the benefit of leaving and the European Union will collapse. If UK gets bad deal, then rest of the member states will not leave individually, it would require the biggest states to all decide together to leave essentially.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 May 2017, 3:48 pm

Ent wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
GSC wrote:Labour keep promising to spend all over the shop. Not entirely sure where all this money is going to realistically keep coming from (beyond the usual corporations are evil and dont pay taxes spiel everyone spits out at election time)

Thats the other reason I can't bring myself to vote Labour. I don't think they'd be any more effective in closing the tax loopholes the likes of Google use to avoid paying huge amounts of corporation tax, so as usual they'd milk ordinary working people (the people they are supposedly championing).

And that was even before Diane Abbot's howler.

The other reason is they are sounding like a bunch of hypocrites, avoiding answering any questions about their election pledges and instead attacking the Tories for not answering the same kind of questions, (both sides currently giving variations on the, "wait until our manifesto is published", theme).

Give me a "bloody difficult woman" to fight our corner against the EU Commission, rather than an appeaser who would see us rejoin the club ASAP...possibly under worse terms and conditions (for having the audacity to vote leave in the first place).

Everything I've heard and read from Juncker and co to this point, tells me the EU are prepared to play hardball and make things as difficult as possible, so I don't see why we should be any more reasonable.

We need them more than they need us.  


Thats what they want you to think. Seems some are obviously more easily brainwashed than others. laughing

Even if that were true, thats no reason for us to drop our trousers and bend over for them.

How can the UK play hard ball when leaving? They have nothing to offer - the UK market is already incredibly open.

The UK had a great deal as a member of the EU, the terms they get now will not resemble that in any shape or form.


That goes without saying Ent. Its pretty much the only thing the EU can hold us to ransom over. They've already said if we want continued access to the single market, we'll have to accept a load of other conditions that will effectively keep us in the EU.

If the price of leaving is that we have to fall back on WTO trading terms, obviously it will be less beneficial than what we have now, but it won't exactly be the end of the world.

Its a matter of principle for me. If the EU are going to try and be awkward buggers over this, we should be prepared to stare them down.
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Post by Ent on Fri 05 May 2017, 3:49 pm

The UK will only be screwed over in the eyes of the UK, they had the best membership deal within the EU and have decided to leave - look at it from the EU's point of view, you can't have a better deal outside the EU than you did in it.

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Post by Ent on Fri 05 May 2017, 3:50 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Ent wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
GSC wrote:Labour keep promising to spend all over the shop. Not entirely sure where all this money is going to realistically keep coming from (beyond the usual corporations are evil and dont pay taxes spiel everyone spits out at election time)

Thats the other reason I can't bring myself to vote Labour. I don't think they'd be any more effective in closing the tax loopholes the likes of Google use to avoid paying huge amounts of corporation tax, so as usual they'd milk ordinary working people (the people they are supposedly championing).

And that was even before Diane Abbot's howler.

The other reason is they are sounding like a bunch of hypocrites, avoiding answering any questions about their election pledges and instead attacking the Tories for not answering the same kind of questions, (both sides currently giving variations on the, "wait until our manifesto is published", theme).

Give me a "bloody difficult woman" to fight our corner against the EU Commission, rather than an appeaser who would see us rejoin the club ASAP...possibly under worse terms and conditions (for having the audacity to vote leave in the first place).

Everything I've heard and read from Juncker and co to this point, tells me the EU are prepared to play hardball and make things as difficult as possible, so I don't see why we should be any more reasonable.

We need them more than they need us.  


Thats what they want you to think. Seems some are obviously more easily brainwashed than others. laughing

Even if that were true, thats no reason for us to drop our trousers and bend over for them.

How can the UK play hard ball when leaving? They have nothing to offer - the UK market is already incredibly open.

The UK had a great deal as a member of the EU, the terms they get now will not resemble that in any shape or form.


That goes without saying Ent. Its pretty much the only thing the EU can hold us to ransom over. They've already said if we want continued access to the single market, we'll have to accept a load of other conditions that will effectively keep us in the EU.

If the price of leaving is that we have to fall back on WTO trading terms, obviously it will be less beneficial than what we have now, but it won't exactly be the end of the world.

Its a matter of principle for me. If the EU are going to try and be awkward buggers over this, we should be prepared to stare them down.

You do realise it is the UK being the awkward ones and not the EU? You can't have better terms outside of the EU than in it.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 05 May 2017, 3:51 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Both sides agreeing? Feels like an unachievable Nirvana.....

Did read an interesting article on City AM about how, secretly, the EU negotiators realise that no deal is better than a bad deal for us, Mexican stanf-off anyone??

The one by Brian Montieth of the Leave Alliance? Come on mate.

No deal will be a f*cking disaster for us and pretty damaging for the EU as well. Anyone who needs any kind of license to sell worldwide will have to make them from scratch.


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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 May 2017, 3:58 pm

Crimey wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Both sides agreeing? Feels like an unachievable Nirvana.....

Did read an interesting article on City AM about how, secretly, the EU negotiators realise that no deal is better than a bad deal for us, Mexican stanf-off anyone??

Well it depends on whether the EU Commission sees any value in retaining ties with the UK. Do we have anything they particularly want continued access to, whether thats goods, services, political influence, military capability?

If both sides know we're better off just walking away, rather than settling for an unfavourable deal, surely its in the EU's interests to not try and screw us over (assuming we are reasonable in our requests)?


Not necessarily. UK will be used to set a precedent. Otherwise other countries will consider leaving the EU, making UK the scapegoat is the easiest way to keep the rest of the EU together. If the UK gets a particularly good deal, other countries will see the benefit of leaving and the European Union will collapse. If UK gets bad deal, then rest of the member states will not leave individually, it would require the biggest states to all decide together to leave essentially.

I'm not so sure about that. The bulk of the EU member states are relatively small, geographically, with corresponding economies and political influence. In the EU they are part of an organisation with much more clout, in partnership with much larger and more powerful nations. I doubt any of them would want to leave.

As you said, its the major nations that might see a benefit in leaving. I recently checked some figures on this and just 5 countries provide 50% of the EU's total budget...you can probably guess which ones.

As I see it, its mainly going to be France and Germany holding the EU together. If either of them decides to call it a day, I think the EU would fall apart pretty rapidly.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:00 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Both sides agreeing? Feels like an unachievable Nirvana.....

Did read an interesting article on City AM about how, secretly, the EU negotiators realise that no deal is better than a bad deal for us, Mexican stanf-off anyone??

The one by Brian Montieth of the Leave Alliance? Come on mate.

No deal will be a f*cking disaster for us and pretty damaging for the EU as well. Anyone who needs any kind of license to sell worldwide will have to make them from scratch.


*cough* World Trade Organisation? *cough*
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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:03 pm

Ent wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
Ent wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
GSC wrote:Labour keep promising to spend all over the shop. Not entirely sure where all this money is going to realistically keep coming from (beyond the usual corporations are evil and dont pay taxes spiel everyone spits out at election time)

Thats the other reason I can't bring myself to vote Labour. I don't think they'd be any more effective in closing the tax loopholes the likes of Google use to avoid paying huge amounts of corporation tax, so as usual they'd milk ordinary working people (the people they are supposedly championing).

And that was even before Diane Abbot's howler.

The other reason is they are sounding like a bunch of hypocrites, avoiding answering any questions about their election pledges and instead attacking the Tories for not answering the same kind of questions, (both sides currently giving variations on the, "wait until our manifesto is published", theme).

Give me a "bloody difficult woman" to fight our corner against the EU Commission, rather than an appeaser who would see us rejoin the club ASAP...possibly under worse terms and conditions (for having the audacity to vote leave in the first place).

Everything I've heard and read from Juncker and co to this point, tells me the EU are prepared to play hardball and make things as difficult as possible, so I don't see why we should be any more reasonable.

We need them more than they need us.  


Thats what they want you to think. Seems some are obviously more easily brainwashed than others. laughing

Even if that were true, thats no reason for us to drop our trousers and bend over for them.

How can the UK play hard ball when leaving? They have nothing to offer - the UK market is already incredibly open.

The UK had a great deal as a member of the EU, the terms they get now will not resemble that in any shape or form.


That goes without saying Ent. Its pretty much the only thing the EU can hold us to ransom over. They've already said if we want continued access to the single market, we'll have to accept a load of other conditions that will effectively keep us in the EU.

If the price of leaving is that we have to fall back on WTO trading terms, obviously it will be less beneficial than what we have now, but it won't exactly be the end of the world.

Its a matter of principle for me. If the EU are going to try and be awkward buggers over this, we should be prepared to stare them down.

You do realise it is the UK being the awkward ones and not the EU? You can't have better terms outside of the EU than in it.


You've clearly not been listening to Jean-Claude Juncker and the other EU representatives if that what you really think. They're the ones trying to back the UK into a corner and basically make us reconsider our decision to leave.

As to your second sentence I'm pretty sure thats exactly what I said in my previous post. No need to repeat it thank you.

I don't know about you, but I don't like being held to ransom. Leaving the EU was never going to be pain-free. Anyone who thought otherwise is a fool.
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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:11 pm

McDonnells attempt at damage control is interesting. It was always going to be hard, people aren't voting on national issues and look at how well we did in Wales (where Welsh Labour told everyone who'd listen they were separate to Corbyn)
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Post by Crimey on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:22 pm

Leaving the EU was never going to be pain-free. 

But what exactly is that pain for?

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Post by Crimey on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:24 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
Crimey wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Both sides agreeing? Feels like an unachievable Nirvana.....

Did read an interesting article on City AM about how, secretly, the EU negotiators realise that no deal is better than a bad deal for us, Mexican stanf-off anyone??

Well it depends on whether the EU Commission sees any value in retaining ties with the UK. Do we have anything they particularly want continued access to, whether thats goods, services, political influence, military capability?

If both sides know we're better off just walking away, rather than settling for an unfavourable deal, surely its in the EU's interests to not try and screw us over (assuming we are reasonable in our requests)?


Not necessarily. UK will be used to set a precedent. Otherwise other countries will consider leaving the EU, making UK the scapegoat is the easiest way to keep the rest of the EU together. If the UK gets a particularly good deal, other countries will see the benefit of leaving and the European Union will collapse. If UK gets bad deal, then rest of the member states will not leave individually, it would require the biggest states to all decide together to leave essentially.

I'm not so sure about that. The bulk of the EU member states are relatively small, geographically, with corresponding economies and political influence. In the EU they are part of an organisation with much more clout, in partnership with much larger and more powerful nations. I doubt any of them would want to leave.

As you said, its the major nations that might see a benefit in leaving. I recently checked some figures on this and just 5 countries provide 50% of the EU's total budget...you can probably guess which ones.

As I see it, its mainly going to be France and Germany holding the EU together. If either of them decides to call it a day, I think the EU would fall apart pretty rapidly.

The European Union wants the large countries to stay as part of it, sending a message to the first large nation to leave by showing how poor of a deal you receive when you choose to leave backs the larger nations into a corner where it's clear, to leave on their own could end in disaster.

The smaller states also want the large countries to stay in the EU because the benefits they get from the EU are only there because of the larger member states. So it's in their interests for large member states who want to leave to get a bad deal as well.

The UK has essentially chosen to make itself a scapegoat, from what I can see, for basically no gain.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:26 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Both sides agreeing? Feels like an unachievable Nirvana.....

Did read an interesting article on City AM about how, secretly, the EU negotiators realise that no deal is better than a bad deal for us, Mexican stanf-off anyone??

The one by Brian Montieth of the Leave Alliance? Come on mate.

No deal will be a f*cking disaster for us and pretty damaging for the EU as well. Anyone who needs any kind of license to sell worldwide will have to make them from scratch.


*cough* World Trade Organisation? *cough*

You don't do Mutual recognition treaties through the WTO, you do them between trading blocs and countries. Ours is through the EU and we will cease to be recognised once out. Think passporting but on a global level and for a hundred different treaties. It's like if you live in London and it decided to leave the UK, and your driving license suddenly is no longer valid in the rest of the country because you aren't legally recognised as being part of the UK in the treaties. You no longer have conforming databases with the rest of the UK, you no longer have border treaties with the rest of the UK. So now the DVLA London has to register and negotiate an agreement with the rest of the UK to recognise their driving licenses and the UK to recognise yours. Repeat that for a million times over, keep in mind that we don't have the capacity to negotiate so much agreements, we don't have the manpower to man the borders and we don't have the experience to form agencies which have to be recognised by other nations via negotiated legally binding treaties. And your faith in May is misplaced, she opted out of the JHA when it was politically convenient to do so then opted in to necessary options when the media furore died down. She thinks she can do this again but she can't because the EU is legally bound.

The license thing will hurt the EU too because they will have to increase their bureaucracy too to recognise our new agencies, more paperwork to facilitate trade - they won't go unscathed but the majority of the damage will be to us. Leaving us in a position where we've moved into the new house, built an extension, renovated it all and are just now discussing price with the seller (The seller being every country we have a deal with through the EU, around 1100 agreements). The WTO is fantastic for goods mostly, but even that is subject to quality control which has to be assessed by a legally recognised British standards agency which is also legally recognised on it's own with the opposing agency - which again has to be negotiated. In the case of no deal - there is no cake for anyone, only a vegan soy diet.

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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:27 pm

Cuts both ways. We need the EU more, but they wouldn't walk away clean by any measure.
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Post by rodders on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:31 pm

Crimey wrote:
Leaving the EU was never going to be pain-free. 

But what exactly is that pain for?

So the Tories and Rupert Murdoch can complete the process of turning Britain into a totalitarian fascist state.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:32 pm

Crimey wrote:I just can't understand why both here and America, the poor seem to be voting for people/parties that directly go against their own interests. It's baffling. 

I appreciate that people may not want to vote for Labour because of the problems there, but why switch to Conservatives?

Two ideas:

1) Turnouts seems pretty low, perhaps the poor simply aren't voting leaving those that are skewing socio-economic demographics?
2) Maybe the focal point for many 'poor' is Brexit which had huge turnout. Therefore these same people are focussing on the party that best represents their interest in Brexit rather than anything wider (look at LD in St Albans and Richmond, heavy Remain areas). Most of the Tory gains are just UKIP absorbtions.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:35 pm

superflyweight wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Conservatives are selling leadership.

People don't have confidence in any of the other parties for that whatever their message. For Labour to not replace Corbyn is suicide. By a thousand cuts it seems.

Or 3,485,276 if you're Dianne Abbott.  


Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh

Her latest mathematical bungle is saying Labour only lost 50 council seats having been told it's actually closer to triple that.....

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:36 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
GSC wrote:Labour keep promising to spend all over the shop. Not entirely sure where all this money is going to realistically keep coming from (beyond the usual corporations are evil and dont pay taxes spiel everyone spits out at election time)

Thats the other reason I can't bring myself to vote Labour. I don't think they'd be any more effective in closing the tax loopholes the likes of Google use to avoid paying huge amounts of corporation tax, so as usual they'd milk ordinary working people (the people they are supposedly championing).

And that was even before Diane Abbot's howler.

The other reason is they are sounding like a bunch of hypocrites, avoiding answering any questions about their election pledges and instead attacking the Tories for not answering the same kind of questions, (both sides currently giving variations on the, "wait until our manifesto is published", theme).

Give me a "bloody difficult woman" to fight our corner against the EU Commission, rather than an appeaser who would see us rejoin the club ASAP...possibly under worse terms and conditions (for having the audacity to vote leave in the first place).

Everything I've heard and read from Juncker and co to this point, tells me the EU are prepared to play hardball and make things as difficult as possible, so I don't see why we should be any more reasonable.

We need them more than they need us.  


Thats what they want you to think. Seems some are obviously more easily brainwashed than others. laughing

Even if that were true, thats no reason for us to drop our trousers and bend over for them.

Yes, Brexit voters.

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Post by rodders on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:38 pm

GSC wrote:Cuts both ways. We need the EU more, but they wouldn't walk away clean by any measure.

There is no "we".

There are only those who stand to benefit from leaving the the EU i.e. those who don't need to work for income but profit from the exploitation of others therefore stand to gain from extreme deregulation and those who stand to suffer from it, primarily those who rely on either employment or welfare for survival.
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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:41 pm

Stole this from someone, but it's so good:

Just when you thought that there's no further depths of stupidity for the UK to sink to, that we've finally reached peak stupid, a whole new vista of stupid yawns open.

The UK inexplicably voted to inflict serious harm on ourselves, and to inflict collateral damage on our closest allies. Now we’re simply amazed that the EU doesn’t just want to roll over and let us do what we want. But…but…we’re Britain! Don’t they know that? Why are they so vindictive? Why are they picking on us?

We choose Theresa May, the most awkward, stilted, charmless politician in recorded history to negotiate on our behalf. She predictably humiliates herself, and the UK, and then we blame the European press for pointing it out. Our own press foams at the mouth, spitting venom every day, but we expect the European press to be impartial. Why?

We disregard all logic and economic expertise, and make a stupid political decision to Brexit. Now we’re astounded that the EU are also prioritising political imperatives over economic ones, by making it difficult for us. Why do we expect completely different standards from the EU than we apply to ourselves?

There seems to be very little awareness in the UK, and definitely not from the government, that we’re the ones doing all this. The EU are just reacting, logically and predictably, to protect their own interests against our senseless, mindless, stupid actions. They’re not doing anything to us. We’re not victims here.

What’s happening now is what was always predicted, by everyone who knows anything about these things: the ridiculous fantasies of the Brexit campaign are coming into contact with reality, like a cruise liner grinding into an iceberg. And the magic beans salesmen who brought us here are busy blaming the EU for the mess they created.

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Post by GSC on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:41 pm

Watching McDonnell and Sturgeon having a live spin off on the beeb worth a watch
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Post by rodders on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:43 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Stole this from someone, but it's so good:

Just when you thought that there's no further depths of stupidity for the UK to sink to, that we've finally reached peak stupid, a whole new vista of stupid yawns open.

The UK inexplicably voted to inflict serious harm on ourselves, and to inflict collateral damage on our closest allies. Now we’re simply amazed that the EU doesn’t just want to roll over and let us do what we want. But…but…we’re Britain! Don’t they know that? Why are they so vindictive? Why are they picking on us?

We choose Theresa May, the most awkward, stilted, charmless politician in recorded history to negotiate on our behalf. She predictably humiliates herself, and the UK, and then we blame the European press for pointing it out. Our own press foams at the mouth, spitting venom every day, but we expect the European press to be impartial. Why?

We disregard all logic and economic expertise, and make a stupid political decision to Brexit. Now we’re astounded that the EU are also prioritising political imperatives over economic ones, by making it difficult for us. Why do we expect completely different standards from the EU than we apply to ourselves?

There seems to be very little awareness in the UK, and definitely not from the government, that we’re the ones doing all this. The EU are just reacting, logically and predictably, to protect their own interests against our senseless, mindless, stupid actions. They’re not doing anything to us. We’re not victims here.

What’s happening now is what was always predicted, by everyone who knows anything about these things: the ridiculous fantasies of the Brexit campaign are coming into contact with reality, like a cruise liner grinding into an iceberg. And the magic beans salesmen who brought us here are busy blaming the EU for the mess they created.

Perfect and accurate summary of the current situation, would love to know the source.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 May 2017, 5:55 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Stole this from someone, but it's so good:

Just when you thought that there's no further depths of stupidity for the UK to sink to, that we've finally reached peak stupid, a whole new vista of stupid yawns open.

The UK inexplicably voted to inflict serious harm on ourselves, and to inflict collateral damage on our closest allies. Now we’re simply amazed that the EU doesn’t just want to roll over and let us do what we want. But…but…we’re Britain! Don’t they know that? Why are they so vindictive? Why are they picking on us?

We choose Theresa May, the most awkward, stilted, charmless politician in recorded history to negotiate on our behalf. She predictably humiliates herself, and the UK, and then we blame the European press for pointing it out. Our own press foams at the mouth, spitting venom every day, but we expect the European press to be impartial. Why?

We disregard all logic and economic expertise, and make a stupid political decision to Brexit. Now we’re astounded that the EU are also prioritising political imperatives over economic ones, by making it difficult for us. Why do we expect completely different standards from the EU than we apply to ourselves?

There seems to be very little awareness in the UK, and definitely not from the government, that we’re the ones doing all this. The EU are just reacting, logically and predictably, to protect their own interests against our senseless, mindless, stupid actions. They’re not doing anything to us. We’re not victims here.

What’s happening now is what was always predicted, by everyone who knows anything about these things: the ridiculous fantasies of the Brexit campaign are coming into contact with reality, like a cruise liner grinding into an iceberg. And the magic beans salesmen who brought us here are busy blaming the EU for the mess they created.


So what you've got to ask yourself is WHY all this has happened?

If these election results are any kind of indicator of what to expect in the General Election (although things could indeed pan out quite differently in June) how could so many people be so very wrong?

Why did a majority of the country vote to leave in the first place?

Why are so many voting Conservative now, helping to cement the government's mandate to negotiate Brexit on our behalf? By the way "we" didn't choose Theresa May. She was elected by the Conservatives.

Are you saying we're a nation of gullible sheep?

Why has there actually been mixed reactions by business to Brexit, with some companies seeing it as positive, as well as those who are unhappy with it? The real answer is that no-one knows and no-one WILL know just how bad (or good) until either a deal is finalised, or we walk away without one.

We can speculate all we like, but the only real truth is we won't know until its done and dusted.

Why do you also fail to acknowledge the EU took a hardline stance from the outset, claiming they would not make it easy for the UK to walk away? How is the government supposed to respond to that? True it is not in their interest to make it easy, but by going public with their stance right away, they set themselves up as the bogeyman and basically re-affirmed much of what many Brexiteers thought about European politicians.


Last edited by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 May 2017, 5:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by dyrewolfe on Fri 05 May 2017, 5:56 pm

rodders wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Stole this from someone, but it's so good:

Just when you thought that there's no further depths of stupidity for the UK to sink to, that we've finally reached peak stupid, a whole new vista of stupid yawns open.

The UK inexplicably voted to inflict serious harm on ourselves, and to inflict collateral damage on our closest allies. Now we’re simply amazed that the EU doesn’t just want to roll over and let us do what we want. But…but…we’re Britain! Don’t they know that? Why are they so vindictive? Why are they picking on us?

We choose Theresa May, the most awkward, stilted, charmless politician in recorded history to negotiate on our behalf. She predictably humiliates herself, and the UK, and then we blame the European press for pointing it out. Our own press foams at the mouth, spitting venom every day, but we expect the European press to be impartial. Why?

We disregard all logic and economic expertise, and make a stupid political decision to Brexit. Now we’re astounded that the EU are also prioritising political imperatives over economic ones, by making it difficult for us. Why do we expect completely different standards from the EU than we apply to ourselves?

There seems to be very little awareness in the UK, and definitely not from the government, that we’re the ones doing all this. The EU are just reacting, logically and predictably, to protect their own interests against our senseless, mindless, stupid actions. They’re not doing anything to us. We’re not victims here.

What’s happening now is what was always predicted, by everyone who knows anything about these things: the ridiculous fantasies of the Brexit campaign are coming into contact with reality, like a cruise liner grinding into an iceberg. And the magic beans salesmen who brought us here are busy blaming the EU for the mess they created.

Perfect and accurate summary of the current situation, would love to know the source.

Source: Prawns' fevered imagination. Wink
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 05 May 2017, 6:04 pm

There aren't half some dreamers around. The results in Scotland are exactly as I thought they'd go. The SNP vote held firm and Tories hoovered up unionist voters who used to vote Labour. In short the unionist voters are now putting their votes more in one basket than two now. How that equates (as Ruth Davidson) claims that it is the country saying no to independent I am buggered if I know. It is a clear case of unionist voters shifting their vote from Labour to Tory nothing else.
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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 05 May 2017, 6:15 pm

Yes, I'm saying that leave voters are, by and large, gullible sheep.

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