Tour head to heads

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Tour head to heads

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:06 pm

So now that the Lions' squad is up I figured it was looking at a couple of likely (strictly my opinion) test 23s so see how NZ & the Lions match up. Here's what I came up with:

(Note, personally I'd start Farrell as 12 but I doubt Gatland will):

Position NZ vs Lions Winner
1 Moody vs McGrath Winner: McGrath Lions
2 Coles vs Owens Winner: Coles. By a massive margin NZ
3 Franks vs Furlong Winner: Draw Draw
4 Retallick vs Itoje Winner: Draw Draw
5 Whitelock vs Kruis Winner: Draw Draw
6 Kaino vs Stander Winner: Draw Draw
7 Cane vs Warburton Winner: Cane NZ
8 Read vs Vunipola Winner: Read NZ
9 Perenara vs Murray Winner: Draw Draw
10 B. Barrett vs Sexton Winner: Barrett NZ
11 J. Savea vs North Winner: Savea NZ
12 SBW/Crotty vs Henshaw Winner: SBW/Crotty NZ
13 Lienart Brown vs Joseph Winner: Draw Draw
14 Dagg vs Williams Winner: Williams Lions
15 B. Smith vs Hogg Winner: Smith NZ
16 Taylor vs George Winner: George Lions
17 Crockett vs Vunipola Winner: Vunipola Lions
18 Faumuina vs Cole Winner: Faumuina NZ
19 S. Barrett vs Henderson Winner: Barrett NZ
20 A. Savea vs Tipuric/O'Brien Winner: Savea NZ
21 A. Smith vs Webb Winner: Smith NZ
22 Cruden/Sopo'aiga vs Farrell Winner: Cruden NZ
23 J. Barrett vs Daly Winner: Barrett NZ

Coaches Hansen vs Gatland Winner: Hansen NZ

13-3 NZ with 7 too-close-to-calls
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Scottrf on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:08 pm

Surely it will be Milner-Skudder not Dagg on the wing. And NZ win that.
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:10 pm

Scottrf wrote:Surely it will be Milner-Skudder not Dagg on the wing. And NZ win that.

Depends a bit on fitness & form - they're both out currently. If both are fit one would be ahead of Jordie Barrett on the bench (this year is probably a bit soon for Jr - he's going to be immense at RWC 19)
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by whocares on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:16 pm

I think you're being too kind on the Lions lock but maybe that just me...

while there is indeed similar quality on both sides for most positions, the main difference for me is the lack of real world class players In the Lions while the AB still has a few (Coles, Read, Barrett, Savea if he's on, SBW if he's back to his 2015 level, Rettalick). Add that to the fact that Lions also have to gel and play away it will take a hell of a performance for them to win one of the three test.


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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:21 pm

whocares wrote:I think you're being too kind on the Lions lock but maybe that just me...

while there is indeed similar quality on both sides for most positions, the main difference for me is the lack of real world class players In the Lions while the AB still has a few (Coles, Read, Barrett, Savea if he's on, SBW if he's back to his 2015 level, Rettalick). Add that to the fact that Lions also have to gel and play away it will take a hell of a performance for them to win one of the three test.


There's a reason most of the British bookies are offering 10/11 on a Blackwash.

The jury is out on SBW, he's played 1 game of 15s in a year. But if Smith can re-find his 2015 form then the NZ spine is world-XV quality - Coles, Read, Smith, Barrett, Smith
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:27 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
whocares wrote:I think you're being too kind on the Lions lock but maybe that just me...

while there is indeed similar quality on both sides for most positions, the main difference for me is the lack of real world class players In the Lions while the AB still has a few (Coles, Read, Barrett, Savea if he's on, SBW if he's back to his 2015 level, Rettalick). Add that to the fact that Lions also have to gel and play away it will take a hell of a performance for them to win one of the three test.


There's a reason most of the British bookies are offering 10/11 on a Blackwash.

The jury is out on SBW, he's played 1 game of 15s in a year. But if Smith can re-find his 2015 form then the NZ spine is world-XV quality - Coles, Read, Smith, Barrett, Smith

... and that's not including the best 2 locks in the world. Erm

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by whocares on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:30 pm

for the sake of cohesion on the field It would make sense that Gatland at least starts "groups" of players that know each other inside out such as Irish front row, English locks, Irish HBs (+IC) etc.

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Griff on Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:59 pm

whocares wrote:for the sake of cohesion on the field It would make sense that Gatland at least starts "groups" of players that know each other inside out such as Irish front row, English locks, Irish HBs (+IC) etc.

Yeah, I sort of agree. Although saying that I wouldn't like to see Welsh 'groups' in there as I don't think as groups they're the best or complete as a group (e.g. 1 front rower in Owens) I.e. I wouldn't pick a whole Welsh back row, for example. Or back 3. But I would pick groups from other nations:

I could see a strong team coming from these groups:

Irish front row: Furlong, Best, McGrath
English second row: Kruis & Itoje
A mixed back row: Warburton, Billy V, Stander/POM
Irish half backs: Murray and Sexton
English or Irish Centres: Farrell & JJ or Henshaw & Payne
A mixed back 3: Hogg at FB (obv) and maybe either Liam Williams, Seymour, North (2 of)

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by whocares on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:02 pm

like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together Smile

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Griff on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:08 pm

whocares wrote:like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together Smile

I doubt it, whocares. If and when we lose it will be because of the Welsh players. Even if there are only a few in the test team. They're already being blamed for the whitewash (or blackwash) Wink

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by SecretFly on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:16 pm

Griff wrote:
whocares wrote:like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together Smile

I doubt it, whocares. If and when we lose it will be because of the Welsh players. Even if there are only a few in the test team. They're already being blamed for the whitewash (or blackwash) Wink

Ah now, that's not fair. I'd blame the ABs for any whitewash myself.

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:30 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Griff wrote:
whocares wrote:like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together Smile

I doubt it, whocares. If and when we lose it will be because of the Welsh players. Even if there are only a few in the test team. They're already being blamed for the whitewash (or blackwash) Wink

Ah now, that's not fair.  I'd blame the ABs for any whitewash myself.  

OK
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by R!skysports on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:34 pm

Griff wrote:
whocares wrote:like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together Smile

I doubt it, whocares. If and when we lose it will be because of the Welsh players. Even if there are only a few in the test team. They're already being blamed for the whitewash (or blackwash) Wink

Wow - chip anyone

We would blame the Coach for picking the wrong type of players, some who are injured and having a limited and doomed game plan destined to fail, with no plan B

He currently is not affiliated with any nation, so could not blame any nation - it would be on his shoulders


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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Griff on Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:59 pm

R!skysports wrote:
Griff wrote:
whocares wrote:like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together Smile

I doubt it, whocares. If and when we lose it will be because of the Welsh players. Even if there are only a few in the test team. They're already being blamed for the whitewash (or blackwash) Wink

Wow - chip anyone

We would blame the Coach for picking the wrong type of players, some who are injured and having a limited and doomed game plan destined to fail, with no plan B

He currently is not affiliated with any nation, so could not blame any nation - it would be on his shoulders


<cough> b*llocks! <cough>

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by marty2086 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:02 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: (Note, personally I'd start Farrell as 12 but I doubt Gatland will)

12 SBW/Crotty vs Henshaw Winner: SBW/Crotty NZ
13 Lienart Brown vs Joseph Winner: Draw Draw

Think it'll be Farrell and Henshaw in the centres, Henshaw is more of a 13 though he looked a little uncomfortable at times there when babysitting Ringrose during the 6Ns

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: 2 Coles vs Owens Winner: Coles. By a massive margin NZ
16 Taylor vs George Winner: George Lions

I notice you left out the hooker who more than matched Coles on two occasions less than 6 months ago, Best and Coles for me are the two best hookers in the world and do all that a hooker is meant to do and both have extras to their game. Best weakness is he can have the yips with his throw when he tries to force it but they are the best scrummagers

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:18 Faumuina vs Cole Winner: Faumuina NZ

Think Cole is a starter or misses out, think we may well see Sinckler in the 23 to use his mobility

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:9 Perenara vs Murray Winner: Draw Draw
19 S. Barrett vs Henderson Winner: Barrett NZ
Pretty sure these have went the way of the Irishman in the past





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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:04 pm

R!skysports wrote:
Griff wrote:
whocares wrote:like your team idea Griff - besides Welsh players would be like the cement mortar that would bring the Lions "house" together Smile

I doubt it, whocares. If and when we lose it will be because of the Welsh players. Even if there are only a few in the test team. They're already being blamed for the whitewash (or blackwash) Wink

Wow - chip anyone

We would blame the Coach for picking the wrong type of players, some who are injured and having a limited and doomed game plan destined to fail, with no plan B

He currently is not affiliated with any nation, so could not blame any nation - it would be on his shoulders


I don't know how much any coach could do on a tour to NZ this year. Warrenball may keep the losing margin down. Otoh a more expansive gameplan might just win 1 test. But touring away vs a team with 7 or 8 guys who'd be in a world XV when you've got a couple of world XV grade players at best is an uphill battle however you attack it
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:07 pm

Nz are beatable even at home. They aren't the team of 3 or 4 years ago albeit still excellent.

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:09 pm

Cane better than Warburton... Come on man what have you been smoking laughing

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Scottrf on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:10 pm

Chiefs or Cardiff Blues Whistle
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by SecretFly on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:14 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

I don't know how much any coach could do on a tour to NZ this year. Warrenball may keep the losing margin down. Otoh a more expansive gameplan might just win 1 test. But touring away vs a team with 7 or 8 guys who'd be in a world XV when you've got a couple of world XV grade players at best is an uphill battle however you attack it

Ah it's very doable though. But it will just need all-out highest aggression for two 80 minute stretches. Not allow ABs to settle into rhythm (Lions have players to handle that plan) and have a few tricky creative types to take some 5 pointers over a white line. (Lions have players to handle that plan too - both at forwards and backs)

The thing is the task is doable - if ever a combo NH squad can chance it, these recent years with England at numero 2 and virtually all sides now running on SH coaching is the time it's doable.

But will it get done? Well, over to the bookies and the idiots putting their money where their mouths are.

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:19 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: (Note, personally I'd start Farrell as 12 but I doubt Gatland will)

12 SBW/Crotty vs Henshaw Winner: SBW/Crotty NZ
13 Lienart Brown vs Joseph Winner: Draw Draw

Think it'll be Farrell and Henshaw in the centres, Henshaw is more of a 13 though he looked a little uncomfortable at times there when babysitting Ringrose during the 6Ns

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: 2 Coles vs Owens Winner: Coles. By a massive margin NZ
16 Taylor vs George Winner: George Lions

I notice you left out the hooker who more than matched Coles on two occasions less than 6 months ago, Best and Coles for me are the two best hookers in the world and do all that a hooker is meant to do and both have extras to their game. Best weakness is he can have the yips with his throw when he tries to force it but they are the best scrummagers

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:18 Faumuina vs Cole Winner: Faumuina NZ

Think Cole is a starter or misses out, think we may well see Sinckler in the 23 to use his mobility

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:9 Perenara vs Murray Winner: Draw Draw
19 S. Barrett vs Henderson Winner: Barrett NZ
Pretty sure these have went the way of the Irishman in the past



I'd start Farrell 12 and either Joseph or Henshaw 13 myself. Gatland is more likely to go Henshaw 12 JD2 13. With Te'o on the bench Wink
I opted for Henshaw 12 to be comparing similar styles of 12 - 2 inside centres. Personally I think giving Sexton a 2nd playmaker would be far more effective, at times the lack of one has really cost Ireland

Owens was (narrowly) the form hooker in the 6N so I expect Gatland to start him. And George is the better bench impact option (I'll grant you Cole on the bench is wrong for the same reason). And while Best is a handy scrummager and good rucker he can't run in tries or distribute like a centre. Coles can.

Barrett actually played pretty well in Chicago. The real issue was Kaino at lock. Subbing him early to fix Hansen's blunder (OK, granted his other option was fielding 2 rookie locks) meant that we wound up with a hooker on one flank (Dane Coles ended up playing the full 80), Read at lock and Ardie Savea on the wing at the end when the injuries mounted up. That and a superb performance from Ireland - I was there.
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by marty2086 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:11 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: (Note, personally I'd start Farrell as 12 but I doubt Gatland will)

12 SBW/Crotty vs Henshaw Winner: SBW/Crotty NZ
13 Lienart Brown vs Joseph Winner: Draw Draw

Think it'll be Farrell and Henshaw in the centres, Henshaw is more of a 13 though he looked a little uncomfortable at times there when babysitting Ringrose during the 6Ns

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote: 2 Coles vs Owens Winner: Coles. By a massive margin NZ
16 Taylor vs George Winner: George Lions

I notice you left out the hooker who more than matched Coles on two occasions less than 6 months ago, Best and Coles for me are the two best hookers in the world and do all that a hooker is meant to do and both have extras to their game. Best weakness is he can have the yips with his throw when he tries to force it but they are the best scrummagers

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:18 Faumuina vs Cole Winner: Faumuina NZ

Think Cole is a starter or misses out, think we may well see Sinckler in the 23 to use his mobility

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:9 Perenara vs Murray Winner: Draw Draw
19 S. Barrett vs Henderson Winner: Barrett NZ
Pretty sure these have went the way of the Irishman in the past



I'd start Farrell 12 and either Joseph or Henshaw 13 myself. Gatland is more likely to go Henshaw 12 JD2 13. With Te'o on the bench  Wink
I opted for Henshaw 12 to be comparing similar styles of 12 - 2 inside centres. Personally I think giving Sexton a 2nd playmaker would be far more effective, at times the lack of one has really cost Ireland

Owens was (narrowly) the form hooker in the 6N so I expect Gatland to start him. And George is the better bench impact option (I'll grant you Cole on the bench is wrong for the same reason). And while Best is a handy scrummager and good rucker he can't run in tries or distribute like a centre. Coles can.

Barrett actually played pretty well in Chicago. The real issue was Kaino at lock. Subbing him early to fix Hansen's blunder (OK, granted his other option was fielding 2 rookie locks) meant that we wound up with a hooker on one flank (Dane Coles ended up playing the full 80), Read at lock and Ardie Savea on the wing at the end when the injuries mounted up. That and a superb performance from Ireland - I was there.

I hate you and being in Chicago furious

I agree on Owens being in better form in the 6Ns to an extent, I think his lineout was better in other areas Best was still solid. Irelands lineout was poor until the England game and that's where Rorys weakness is, he tries to do little things to help it and sometimes it work, sometimes it doesn't.

Coles ball carrying was the other stuff I was talking about, with Best its his breakdown work.

Barrett wasn't great in Chicago for me, I do he did somethings well and got lots of praise afterwards but remember thinking there were parts of his game really let him down and could cost him his place. Can't remember what those things were though, might have to rewatch the game to refresh my memory and psych me up for the summer boxing

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by nganboy on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:01 pm

Barrett came off the bench and did a good job. It was not trusting him and starting Kaino at lock that stuffed the team up. (And Ireland playing marvellously of course.) it was Tuipoloto who lost his place as a result of being a bit f...ing useless.
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by nganboy on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:03 pm

Anyway if the ABs clean up I'd blame all the rugby unions for picking kiwi and Aussie coaches. Grow your own!
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:07 pm

nganboy wrote:Barrett came off the bench and did a good job. It was not trusting him and starting Kaino at lock that stuffed the team up. (And Ireland playing marvellously of course.) it was Tuipoloto who lost his place as a result of being a bit f...ing useless.


Not to mention the false positive drug test for Tuipoloto too (his B sample came back negative)
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by nganboy on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:22 pm

Don't know/care about that it's the fact that he's lazy and doesn't cherish the ball.
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by marty2086 on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:25 pm

Tuipoloto played the very next game but what you are saying is you don't like him and will just say whatever about him to make your point?

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by nganboy on Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:42 pm

What on earth are you going on about? My point is I don't think he is a top player. He's got size and athleticism but I don't think he works like he should. You're right though he did play the next game. I was wrong. I was remembering the fact that Barrett took the reserve position off him once the first choice locks were back. I even think the Blues look better with the new guys locking and Tuipoloto not even on the bench. More workhorse like. Look at Fatialofa playing for the Hurricanes. He's nothing special. Couldn't get a game for the Blues. But gee he gives it his all and was very important in helping them win it last year.
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by EST on Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:33 am

I watched the tightfive NZ Tv show (don't know how credible this is in NZ) on youtube yesterday, when they were discussing the lions/NZ selection.

The main point from a Kiwi perspective, is that if they lose Reid then they are a bit light at 8 - who would be backing him up? Luatua?

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:50 am

Anyone under any illusions of what the Lions will be facing this summer needs to check out what the Crusaders just did to the Stormers. Shocked
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:34 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Anyone under any illusions of what the Lions will be facing this summer needs to check out what the Crusaders just did to the Stormers. Shocked

We'll need the test team against Crusaders and NZ Maori for sure. And probably one of the Hurricanes or Chiefs.

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by ebop on Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:09 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:4 Retallick vs Itoje Winner: Draw Draw
5 Whitelock vs Kruis Winner: Draw Draw
chin

Don't mean to be rude but what the heck is this draw nonsense Wink


Last edited by ebop on Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Gwlad on Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:08 pm

what an utterly pointless and entirely biased , subjective thread

You'd think Gatland had written it Whistle

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by ebop on Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:06 pm

Really? Subjective. No kidding Sherlock. You don't need a bachelors degree in psychology to work that out. It's a good thread and worth a discussion for a bit of fun. Lighten up.
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:58 pm

ebop wrote:Really? Subjective. No kidding Sherlock. You don't need a bachelors degree in psychology to work that out. It's a good thread and worth a discussion for a bit of fun. Lighten up.

I think he was kidding, and it is a good thread. It was a great thread until I read that about Warburton! OP lay off the sauce Wink.

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by RiscaGame on Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:51 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
ebop wrote:Really? Subjective. No kidding Sherlock. You don't need a bachelors degree in psychology to work that out. It's a good thread and worth a discussion for a bit of fun. Lighten up.

I think he was kidding, and it is a good thread. It was a great thread until I read that about Warburton! OP lay off the sauce Wink.

Pete is a good poster. Unlike the spammer who clogs the board with his conspiracy theories. Still, it seems a free for all on the board now

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Gwlad on Sun Apr 23, 2017 2:31 am

ebop wrote:Really? Subjective. No kidding Sherlock. You don't need a bachelors degree in psychology to work that out. It's a good thread and worth a discussion for a bit of fun. Lighten up.

typical Kiwi, takes everything seriously and no concept of humor.

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by ebop on Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:43 am

Lol, you're like a moth to the flame you are
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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Gwlad on Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:29 pm

ebop wrote:Lol, you're like a moth to the flame you are

Flame? More of a dying ember,

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by ebop on Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:44 pm

Gwlad wrote:
ebop wrote:Lol, you're like a moth to the flame you are

Flame? More of a dying ember,
And that makes it even sadder

Cry
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ebop

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Re: Tour head to heads

Post by Gwlad on Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:42 am

ebop wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
ebop wrote:Lol, you're like a moth to the flame you are

Flame? More of a dying ember,
And that makes it even sadder

Cry

Dont put yourself down.


Gwlad

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Re: Tour head to heads

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