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Post by GSC on Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:The Scots voted to remain part of the UK.

The UK voted to leave the EU. Every Scottish vote counted the same as every other UK citizen. I don't see the issue.

The Scots (a good number if you look at post-ref stats from neutral sources) decided to vote no on varying issues. One of the main ones was because they feared losing their place in Europe. That won loads of votes for Better Together and has proved to be fruitless for the voters as they are now out of Europe.

The issue is that many Scots sees Scotland as its own country - sure not independent - but very close to it as they have their own government. However, when they vote by 62% to remain in Europe and end up being taken out of Europe it becomes a big issue to many. Yes we know the UK voted to exit but there are perhaps a million plus Scots who fail to recognize or accept being part of the UK or see themselves Scottish first and foremost and feel how they vote should hold more water than it does in the current union.

Sorry Craig, but that's democracy. Why should somebody in Edinburghs vote count more than someone's in London? Almost as ridiculous as Mhairi Black complaining that a region with more inhabitants had more MPs representing it than another region with less MPs.

But such is the politics of the SNP, always phrasing as Scotland vs the rest of the UK (or more accurately England) when Scotland voted to be part of the UK.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:32 pm

GSC wrote:
Musclular-mouse wrote:
GSC wrote:The same way that a Bill can be passed whether Yorkshire likes it or not, or London etc if the majority side differently. That's democracy.

In an independent Scotland will every citizen get a veto if a decision is made they don't agree with? Is a voter in Aberdeen worth more than 1 in Glasgow when counting votes?

Its a bit different with Scotland as they are a separate state to England. If I was Scottish and I wanted x y or z and the overwhelming majority of Scots wanted x y or z but we were told that we are getting B instead because that's what English people want I would feel hard done by and start wanting independence.

Basically there is no democracy in Scotland, Scottish people have no right to do what they want as they are in effect always going to be told to do what the majority of the English want. Scotland could have voted 100% for remain in the eu vote and yet their voice would still have been squashed because the English voice is louder.

That's ultimately what Scotland voted for, being a part of the UK rather than an independent country, meaning that every Scottish vote is equal to an English vote etc. The UK voted as a whole to leave to the EU, rather than England voting for it and overruling everyone else. Again, that's democracy. There are areas of England that were part of the minority vote as there were people in Scotland who voted to leave.

It really depends on how you look at it. This was a vote based on each person having a vote okay? Given that the UK population is around 85% English vote, 9% Scottish votes, 3.5% Welsh votes and 2.5% Northern Irish votes. Different countries within the UK have their own voting tendencies and opinions that much is clear. Broken down then Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain and Wales and England voted to leave. Democracy is fine if you were to say England has 25% say, Scotland has 25% say, Wales has 25% say and Northern Ireland has a 25% say but that isn't the case here. More people live in England by a large distance so England's voice will always be heard first in any such referendums.
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Post by GSC on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:34 pm

So a system where 1 Scottish vote is worth 10 English ones is the fair outcome?
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:40 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
It really depends on how you look at it. This was a vote based on each person having a vote okay? Given that the UK population is around 85% English vote, 9% Scottish votes, 3.5% Welsh votes and 2.5% Northern Irish votes. Different countries within the UK have their own voting tendencies and opinions that much is clear. Broken down then Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain and Wales and England voted to leave. Democracy is fine if you were to say England has 25% say, Scotland has 25% say, Wales has 25% say and Northern Ireland has a 25% say but that isn't the case here. More people live in England by a large distance so England's voice will always be heard first in any such referendums.
So you're solution to an apparent lack of democracy is no democracy?

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Post by GSC on Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:41 pm

GSC wrote:So a system where 1 Scottish vote is worth 10 English ones is the fair outcome?

Actually don't answer, I suspect I already know the answer to this.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:08 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
It really depends on how you look at it. This was a vote based on each person having a vote okay? Given that the UK population is around 85% English vote, 9% Scottish votes, 3.5% Welsh votes and 2.5% Northern Irish votes. Different countries within the UK have their own voting tendencies and opinions that much is clear. Broken down then Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain and Wales and England voted to leave. Democracy is fine if you were to say England has 25% say, Scotland has 25% say, Wales has 25% say and Northern Ireland has a 25% say but that isn't the case here. More people live in England by a large distance so England's voice will always be heard first in any such referendums.
So you're solution to an apparent lack of democracy is no democracy?

This is the crux of the issue and why there is a push for independence in Scotland. The democracy (at present) is unpalatible to a large number of Scots. It is a democracy that sees them voting for one thing and getting something totally different so to them that hardly appears like a democracy. Sure that is not the majority in Scotland but it is a big enough proportion that has totally changed the face of politics in Scotland. In England it isn't such an issue as the Conservative and Labour party are the go to party and always one or the other gets voted in and therein it is Westminster that makes the final decisions for Scotland.
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Post by GSC on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:13 pm

Westminster makes those same decisions for me regardless of who I vote for. And no devolved parliament that seemingly sits on its hands all year and whinges that nothing happens.
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Post by Derbymanc on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:22 pm

wonder if we could all have devolved parliaments, eventually leading to lots and lots of tiny tiny countries where the boundaries are the end of the street and everyont in that street thinks exactly the same. It's the only way to do things fairly ;-)

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Post by GSC on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:24 pm

Or 40% of the street thinks the same way and speaks for the rest of the street Wink
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:25 pm

GSC wrote:Westminster makes those same decisions for me regardless of who I vote for. And no devolved parliament that seemingly sits on its hands all year and whinges that nothing happens.

Very good for you. Sounds a bit like I'm alright Jack haul up the ladder. You do have an English parliament it masquerades in Westminster. thumbsup
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Post by SecretFly on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:26 pm

Derbymanc wrote:wonder if we could all have devolved parliaments, eventually leading to lots and lots of tiny tiny countries where the boundaries are the end of the street and everyont in that street thinks exactly the same. It's the only way to do things fairly ;-)

They already exist... they're called Ghettos. Cops ain't welcome or int'rested and what tattoo you got decides whether you get a 'brov' hug or a dagger in your groin. Wink

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Post by GSC on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:30 pm

What tattoo do you have Fly
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Post by SecretFly on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:36 pm

GSC wrote:What tattoo do you have Fly

I'm not an idiot. I have a stick on one. I can change it depending on which street I do my shopping on Wink

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Post by GSC on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:38 pm

Wed save a lot of money when we scrap EU passports by replacing them with tattoos. Stick it in the manifesto.
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Post by SecretFly on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:41 pm

GSC wrote:Wed save a lot of money when we scrap EU passports by replacing them with tattoos. Stick it in the manifesto.

I'm all for scrapping EU passports. I'm not sure I should be forced to have a permanent tattoo - duplicity is a great survival technique....as most politicians know.

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Post by Derbymanc on Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:29 am

it's Brav Secret ;-)

My tattos say's the 40 percenters, shows that i'm part of the majority you see

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Post by SecretFly on Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:33 am

Derbymanc wrote:it's Brav Secret ;-)

My tattos say's the 40 percenters, shows that i'm part of the majority you see

It's Brov to my ears, Derby...

'Brav' maybe gets an outing when the guy is little, his voice box ain't so deep.. and has just got it in the groin.

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:42 am

GSC wrote:So a system where 1 Scottish vote is worth 10 English ones is the fair outcome?

The issue here is whether referendums are the best form of democracy in the UK considering we have 4 nations and 1 of those nations has a higher population than the other 3 combined. A referendum in the UK is basically a dictatorship of the majority (England).

What England wants is what the rest of the UK will get.

Now you can argue that is fair because Scotland voted to remain a part of that system in 2014. And that is true, however to make the system of referendums fair in the UK in my view is that if there is a referendum and Scotland votes for x but is told that it has to do Y because the majority in England want it to then that should open up a vote in the Scottish parliament for another independence referendum in Scotland.

For the UK to be truly democratic it can't just keep imposing its will onto Scotland and ignoring Scotland's voice. So if Scotland votes in a referendum and their voice is drowned out by England's then the Scottish people should get a say on whether they wish to remain part of that system.

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Post by Derbymanc on Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:49 am

Must be us Northerners and our hearing :-)

Umm yeah it is fair. The Scots were given a chance to go their won way and they didn't, they therefore knew that any major votes would come down to us having a majority. In other words, it's tough. It's not Scotland, England, Wales but It's the UK. bit like someone else said but how far then do you take it. Devon wants to be it's own country/state, have a vote on that and then change evrything so there votes count as much as 1 persons elsewhere.

Personally i think we should get a vote on free prescriptions but alas it's only open to them damn scots and welsh

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:58 am

Derbymanc wrote:Must be us Northerners and our hearing :-)

Umm yeah it is fair. The Scots were given a chance to go their won way and they didn't, they therefore knew that any major votes would come down to us having a majority. In other words, it's tough. It's not Scotland, England, Wales but It's the UK. bit like someone else said but how far then do you take it. Devon wants to be it's own country/state, have a vote on that and then change evrything so there votes count as much as 1 persons elsewhere.

Personally i think we should get a vote on free prescriptions but alas it's only open to them damn scots and welsh

So what you are saying in essence is that Scotland voting remain in 2014 means that they must now implement all of England's wishes even if it goes against the will of the Scottish people?

The 2014 independence referendum does not mean that Scotland's voice within the UK should be ignored.

I would also add that the independence referendum focused heavily on the EU with Scotland being told that voting to leave he uk would result in Scotland leaving the eu and all the financial implications involved in that. Obviously that was a big selling point because in 2015 the Scots voted for the SNP who in their manifesto stated that if the uk left the eu then that would result in another Scottish independence referendum. Then in the EU referendum Scotland voted to remain and I believe every region in Scotland voted to remain.

SO clearly the EU was a big deal in the 2014 independence referendum and is clearly still a big deal.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:03 am

Musclular-mouse wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Must be us Northerners and our hearing :-)

Umm yeah it is fair. The Scots were given a chance to go their won way and they didn't, they therefore knew that any major votes would come down to us having a majority. In other words, it's tough. It's not Scotland, England, Wales but It's the UK. bit like someone else said but how far then do you take it. Devon wants to be it's own country/state, have a vote on that and then change evrything so there votes count as much as 1 persons elsewhere.

Personally i think we should get a vote on free prescriptions but alas it's only open to them damn scots and welsh

So what you are saying in essence is that Scotland voting remain in 2014 means that they must now implement all of England's wishes even if it goes against the will of the Scottish people?

The 2014 independence referendum does not mean that Scotland's voice within the UK should be ignored.

I would also add that the independence referendum focused heavily on the EU with Scotland being told that voting to leave he uk would result in Scotland leaving the eu and all the financial implications involved in that. Obviously that was a big selling point because in 2015 the Scots voted for the SNP who in their manifesto stated that if the uk left the eu then that would result in another Scottish independence referendum. Then in the EU referendum Scotland voted to remain and I believe every region in Scotland voted to remain.

SO clearly the EU was a big deal in the 2014 independence referendum and is clearly still a big deal.

Your view point holds too much sense for here. thumbsup
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Post by Derbymanc on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:07 am

The spin and lies peddled by both sides is a completely different debate.

What i'm stating is that 1 vote = 1 vote regardless of where you live. Forget that it's England, Scotland etc as it's really the UK and the majority voted to stay the UK, therefore yeah you gotta do what the head honcho's say.

bit like Devon does, Manchester does, Cardiff does and so on.

Oh and Scotland were told by the EU that they'd have to reapply to join the EU so it wasn't wrong to say they'd have to leave if they voted independance. Maybe if Alex Salmond hadn't banged on about 'no they wouldn't' despite being told different it wouldn't have been kept getting brought up.

I love the fact some people think the Scottish are special little snowflakes so should have their woes dealt with individually

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Post by Derbymanc on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:08 am

Nah Craig, he has the same viewpoint as you which is

Scottish should be equal to England but have more say.

Whilst the rest of us is saying 1 vote per person, regardless of where you live. (good job too or i'd be governed by Labour in the North (and a few years back it might have been the BNP *shudder)

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:14 am

Derbymanc wrote:The spin and lies peddled by both sides is a completely different debate.

What i'm stating is that 1 vote = 1 vote regardless of where you live. Forget that it's England, Scotland etc as it's really the UK and the majority voted to stay the UK, therefore yeah you gotta do what the head honcho's say.

bit like Devon does, Manchester does, Cardiff does and so on.



I think that comparing different cities within the same nation is a lot different than comparing 2 nations when it comes to election results. Saying that brighton voting to remain in the EU referendum whilst Hull never is the same as England voting to leave whilst Scotland voted to remain is wrong.

I'm not saying Scottish votes should mean more than English votes, I am saying that the Scottish people deserve to have another say on whether they want to be independent or whether they want to remain status quo. Something as big as leaving the EU when Scotland voted to remain surely is ample ammunition to trigger another Scottish independence referendum. I mean if leaving the EU isn't enough then what in your view is grounds for another Scottish referendum?

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Post by Derbymanc on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:22 am

As I said Mus, that's a different debate. the spin and crap that was done was terrible (same for the EU debates as well) and really (I know i keep saying it) someone should be held to task for it.
On that basis (and that alone) i don't see the issues between another referendum (although why it would take until 2019 is beyond me).

But I would make this the last for at least x amount of years (depending on the majority) and after taht, no more talk on Scotland this, Scotland that. It's Uk this and UK that (and no i don't see the difference at all in manchester wanting different than Westminister, nor Scotland wanting different)

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Post by superflyweight on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:32 am

Do the people of London deserve a referendum as to whether or not they remain part of the UK?  Larger population generating a higher GDP and voted to Remain.

There comes a point when you have to accept that you don't always get what you vote for.  I don't agree with the outcome of the EU referendum but I'm prepared to accept that it was a democratic vote.  Equally, I haven't ever voted for the SNP but have now had them in power in Scotland for a decade and for the foreseeable future.  I don't agree with them that the time is right for independence and I don't think they are doing a good job of governing Scotland.  But, that's democracy, you place your vote - you take your chances!

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:41 am

superflyweight wrote:Do the people of London deserve a referendum as to whether or not they remain part of the UK?  Larger population generating a higher GDP and voted to Remain.

There comes a point when you have to accept that you don't always get what you vote for.  I don't agree with the outcome of the EU referendum but I'm prepared to accept that it was a democratic vote.  Equally, I haven't ever voted for the SNP but have now had them in power in Scotland for a decade and for the foreseeable future.  I don't agree with them that the time is right for independence and I don't think they are doing a good job of governing Scotland.  But, that's democracy, you place your vote - you take your chances!

London has never been an independent state, Scotland has. That is the main difference.

The UK is a union of independent nations joining together politically. So if one party to that union isn't happy with how its being run then they can leave. And in this case Scotland have the power to decide to stay or leave based on major events happening within the Union.

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Post by Derbymanc on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:43 am

Yeah it was, wasn't England originally ruled over by Kings in all the seperate states.

I mean how far do you wanna go back?

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Post by SecretFly on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:45 am

superflyweight wrote:Do the people of London deserve a referendum as to whether or not they remain part of the UK?  Larger population generating a higher GDP.

There comes a point when you have to accept that you don't always get what you vote for.  I don't agree with the outcome of the EU referendum but I'm prepared to accept that it was a democratic vote.  Equally, I haven't ever voted for the SNP but have now had them in power in Scotland for a decade and for the foreseeable future.  I don't agree with them that the time is right for independence and I don't think they are doing a good job of governing Scotland.  But, that's democracy, you place your vote - you take your chances!    

That only comes when you want one.  If you don't want one, then why have one?  If you want one then 'deserving' one doesn't enter the equation.  The mood must be there and that's the factor.  

There have been City States before and ...well, maybe the world is changing again and that kind of concept won't seem as far fetched as it seems now.  There are some massive cities on the planet - viable National entities in their own right?  Well, it's only an outlandish idea in present day definitions of Nationhood.
 
But anyway, I'm sure if London people started talking openly about referendums to leave the UK, if the numbers were great enough to make it a discussion that made it to the media and if the debate became raucous enough and engaged many of the millions of people who live there in passionate debate   .... I'm sure the issue of a referendum would then be an idea taken seriously.  That's democracy.  When ideas get enough attention, they become serious ideas.


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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:47 am

Derbymanc wrote:Yeah it was, wasn't England originally ruled over by Kings in all the seperate states.

I mean how far do you wanna go back?

1707 the Act of Union.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Scotland is a nation within the UK. They voted to remain in the EU whilst some of the other union members voted to leave. Scotland as its own nation should have the power to decide if it wants to remain within that union or not. I don't see why you want to deny them that right.

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Post by superflyweight on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:49 am

Musclular-mouse wrote:
superflyweight wrote:Do the people of London deserve a referendum as to whether or not they remain part of the UK?  Larger population generating a higher GDP and voted to Remain.

There comes a point when you have to accept that you don't always get what you vote for.  I don't agree with the outcome of the EU referendum but I'm prepared to accept that it was a democratic vote.  Equally, I haven't ever voted for the SNP but have now had them in power in Scotland for a decade and for the foreseeable future.  I don't agree with them that the time is right for independence and I don't think they are doing a good job of governing Scotland.  But, that's democracy, you place your vote - you take your chances!

London has never been an independent state, Scotland has. That is the main difference.

The UK is a union of independent nations joining together politically. So if one party to that union isn't happy with how its being run then they can leave. And in this case Scotland have the power to decide to stay or leave based on major events happening within the Union.

300 years ago and we weren't colonized, we chose to join the Union (mainly to bail us out of an economic mess of our own making).

We neither have the power to call a referendum or to unilaterally leave the Union. Neither does England, Wales or NI.

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Post by superflyweight on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:51 am

Musclular-mouse wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Yeah it was, wasn't England originally ruled over by Kings in all the seperate states.

I mean how far do you wanna go back?

1707 the Act of Union.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Scotland is a nation within the UK. They voted to remain in the EU whilst some of the other union members voted to leave. Scotland as its own nation should have the power to decide if it wants to remain within that union or not. I don't see why you want to deny them that right.

I don't think anyone is arguing that.

What I'm arguing against is the point that you claimed that Scotland had no democracy when in reality, we have greater democratic rights than any other individual part of the UK.

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:58 am

superflyweight wrote:
Musclular-mouse wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Yeah it was, wasn't England originally ruled over by Kings in all the seperate states.

I mean how far do you wanna go back?

1707 the Act of Union.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Scotland is a nation within the UK. They voted to remain in the EU whilst some of the other union members voted to leave. Scotland as its own nation should have the power to decide if it wants to remain within that union or not. I don't see why you want to deny them that right.

I don't think anyone is arguing that.  

What I'm arguing against is the point that you claimed that Scotland had no democracy when in reality, we have greater democratic rights than any other individual part of the UK.  

Well if Scotland had a 'democracy' why did the Scottish parliament vote in favour of a referendum but Teresa May blocked it and ruled out another referendum. How is going against the will of the Scottish people to hold another referendum democratic?

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Post by superflyweight on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:00 am

Musclular-mouse wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Musclular-mouse wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Yeah it was, wasn't England originally ruled over by Kings in all the seperate states.

I mean how far do you wanna go back?

1707 the Act of Union.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Scotland is a nation within the UK. They voted to remain in the EU whilst some of the other union members voted to leave. Scotland as its own nation should have the power to decide if it wants to remain within that union or not. I don't see why you want to deny them that right.

I don't think anyone is arguing that.  

What I'm arguing against is the point that you claimed that Scotland had no democracy when in reality, we have greater democratic rights than any other individual part of the UK.  

Well if Scotland had a 'democracy' why did the Scottish parliament vote in favour of a referendum but Teresa May blocked it and ruled out another referendum. How is going against the will of the Scottish people to hold another referendum democratic?

The majority of people in Scotland don't want a second referendum at the moment. That's democracy.

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:06 am

superflyweight wrote:
Musclular-mouse wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Musclular-mouse wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Yeah it was, wasn't England originally ruled over by Kings in all the seperate states.

I mean how far do you wanna go back?

1707 the Act of Union.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. Scotland is a nation within the UK. They voted to remain in the EU whilst some of the other union members voted to leave. Scotland as its own nation should have the power to decide if it wants to remain within that union or not. I don't see why you want to deny them that right.

I don't think anyone is arguing that.  

What I'm arguing against is the point that you claimed that Scotland had no democracy when in reality, we have greater democratic rights than any other individual part of the UK.  

Well if Scotland had a 'democracy' why did the Scottish parliament vote in favour of a referendum but Teresa May blocked it and ruled out another referendum. How is going against the will of the Scottish people to hold another referendum democratic?

The majority of people in Scotland don't want a second referendum at the moment.  That's democracy.  

Ok so the majority of people didn't want a conservative government in power in 2010 so I take it that's NOT democracy then that they got into power?

The Scottish parliament is a form of direct democracy and they voted (representative democracy) for another referendum that was blocked by Teresa MAy. So how is that democratic for a tory government to block the will of the Scottish people.

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Post by superflyweight on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:11 am

On your first point - it's democracy under UK electoral rules. As I mentioned earlier - could have been different if people had bothered to vote in the PR referendum.

On the second point - a minority SNP government plus the vegan wing of the SNP (Scottish Green Party) does not = the will of the Scottish people. I repeat, a majority of people in Scotland do not want a second referendum at the moment.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:18 am

superflyweight wrote:On your first point - it's democracy under UK electoral rules.  As I mentioned earlier - could have been different if people had bothered to vote in the PR referendum.  

On the second point - a minority SNP government plus the vegan wing of the SNP (Scottish Green Party) does not = the will of the Scottish people.  I repeat, a majority of people in Scotland do not want a second referendum at the moment.  

You are dealing in opinion polls. The SNP manifesto includes (quite clearly) its intentions to push for another referendum. It has been well-documented by ALL parties. That being the case then there is a simple way for people to show they don't want another referendum now and they would take their votes to Scottish Labour or Scottish Conservative at the upcoming General Election. However, all indications are that the SNP will garner almost half of the vote share again - hardly a sign that voters are so much against another referendum.
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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:18 am

superflyweight wrote:On your first point - it's democracy under UK electoral rules.  As I mentioned earlier - could have been different if people had bothered to vote in the PR referendum.  

On the second point - a minority SNP government plus the vegan wing of the SNP (Scottish Green Party) does not = the will of the Scottish people.  I repeat, a majority of people in Scotland do not want a second referendum at the moment.  

Well yes it does equal the will of the people because they are the directly elected representatives of the people.

If the Scottish parliament votes in favour of something who are we (non-scots) to question that? It is very patronising and is just adding fuel to the flame for Scottish independence. We must respect the Scottish parliament and respect the will of the people who they have been elected by.

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Post by superflyweight on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:20 am

I repeat, a majority of people in Scotland do not want a second referendum at the moment.

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:22 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:On your first point - it's democracy under UK electoral rules.  As I mentioned earlier - could have been different if people had bothered to vote in the PR referendum.  

On the second point - a minority SNP government plus the vegan wing of the SNP (Scottish Green Party) does not = the will of the Scottish people.  I repeat, a majority of people in Scotland do not want a second referendum at the moment.  

You are dealing in opinion polls. The SNP manifesto includes (quite clearly) its intentions to push for another referendum. It has been well-documented by ALL parties. That being the case then there is a simple way for people to show they don't want another referendum now and they would take their votes to Scottish Labour or Scottish Conservative at the upcoming General Election. However, all indications are that the SNP will garner almost half of the vote share again - hardly a sign that voters are so much against another referendum.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. If the SNP win a landslide election again (which everything shows that they will) then surely that proves that the Scottish people want another referendum because they are voting for a party who are fighting tooth and nail for another referendum.

Polls may say that the majority of the public don't want another referendum but yet when it comes to actual voting, those Scottish people are voting overwhelmingly for a party whose main aim is independence and who have put in their manifesto that they will seek an independence referendum if certain criteria are fulfilled.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:23 am

Musclular-mouse wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:On your first point - it's democracy under UK electoral rules.  As I mentioned earlier - could have been different if people had bothered to vote in the PR referendum.  

On the second point - a minority SNP government plus the vegan wing of the SNP (Scottish Green Party) does not = the will of the Scottish people.  I repeat, a majority of people in Scotland do not want a second referendum at the moment.  

You are dealing in opinion polls. The SNP manifesto includes (quite clearly) its intentions to push for another referendum. It has been well-documented by ALL parties. That being the case then there is a simple way for people to show they don't want another referendum now and they would take their votes to Scottish Labour or Scottish Conservative at the upcoming General Election. However, all indications are that the SNP will garner almost half of the vote share again - hardly a sign that voters are so much against another referendum.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. If the SNP win a landslide election again (which everything shows that they will) then surely that proves that the Scottish people want another referendum because they are voting for a party who are fighting tooth and nail for another referendum.

Polls may say that the majority of the public don't want another referendum but yet when it comes to actual voting, those Scottish people are voting overwhelmingly for a party whose main aim is independence and who have put in their manifesto that they will seek an independence referendum if certain criteria are fulfilled.

Spot on again.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:36 am

50% of the population voting for the SNP isn't a particularly strong indicator of what the country wants. Your view of democracy seems to be dependent on how you vote, when it agrees it's democratic and vice versa.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:53 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:50% of the population voting for the SNP isn't a particularly strong indicator of what the country wants. Your view of democracy seems to be dependent on how you vote, when it agrees it's democratic and vice versa.

If you lived here you'd see the spiel in Tory leaflets for the upcoming elections in May. Basically, it contains tips on how to vote against a referendum - not a dicky bird on policies. That is the Tories making this into a virtual referendum poll nobody else. Voters are getting the message loud and clear so if there is a mighty strong sentiment that a referendum is not wanted then surely to god we should see a big chunk taken out of the SNP's share of the vote? As for why only 50% well remember a lot of people do also vote on other issues as well - some may be staunch Labour voters but do hold a fancy for another referendum but will (on general elections stay loyal to Labour) but will vote differently on independence. Also those that choose not to votye in a general election (it does happen) are more inclined to vote on independence (if the last referendum is anything to go by).
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:56 am

The last general election would be a good place for you to start, very little correlation between how voters voted on that and on Brexit. The Tories and UKIP both had a referendum as a key policy whilst Labour did not, lo and behold Labour strongholds voted massively for Brexit. You see what you want to see.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:16 am

Ent wrote:The Scottish electorate is very interesting, a year after rejecting independence they more or less guarantee a conservative government by voting for SNP and costing Labour 40 seats.

Yeah, interesting that wasn't it? They didn't want independence, but thought they'd then vote SNP in droves come the GE. Pretty pathetic IMO.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:25 am

Musclular-mouse wrote:
GSC wrote:The same way that a Bill can be passed whether Yorkshire likes it or not, or London etc if the majority side differently. That's democracy.

In an independent Scotland will every citizen get a veto if a decision is made they don't agree with? Is a voter in Aberdeen worth more than 1 in Glasgow when counting votes?

Its a bit different with Scotland as they are a separate state to England. If I was Scottish and I wanted x y or z and the overwhelming majority of Scots wanted x y or z but we were told that we are getting B instead because that's what English people want I would feel hard done by and start wanting independence.

Basically there is no democracy in Scotland, Scottish people have no right to do what they want as they are in effect always going to be told to do what the majority of the English want. Scotland could have voted 100% for remain in the eu vote and yet their voice would still have been squashed because the English voice is louder.
It's all history. How about Cornwall going independent? Or the Kingdom of Wessex? Or Houses of York or Lancaster? This drive for nationalism that's going on now (in more than Scotland) is pathetic and small-minded. The World is getting smaller and people are getting (slowly) closer together, regardless of whether the xenophobes/children like it or not.

Also, when will people stop banging on with this pathetic "we didn't vote for this!" whine? No, you may not have, but guess what? That's democracy - suck it up. I didn't vote out of the EU in the Brexit referendum or vote Tory at the 2015 GE, but I'm not demanding an independent State of My House.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:27 am

superflyweight wrote:
Musclular-mouse wrote:
GSC wrote:The same way that a Bill can be passed whether Yorkshire likes it or not, or London etc if the majority side differently. That's democracy.

In an independent Scotland will every citizen get a veto if a decision is made they don't agree with? Is a voter in Aberdeen worth more than 1 in Glasgow when counting votes?

Its a bit different with Scotland as they are a separate state to England. If I was Scottish and I wanted x y or z and the overwhelming majority of Scots wanted x y or z but we were told that we are getting B instead because that's what English people want I would feel hard done by and start wanting independence.

Basically there is no democracy in Scotland, Scottish people have no right to do what they want as they are in effect always going to be told to do what the majority of the English want. Scotland could have voted 100% for remain in the eu vote and yet their voice would still have been squashed because the English voice is louder.

Taxation - ability to increase and lower taxes
Health - devolved.
Education - devolved
Policing - devolved
Local Government - devolved
Legal system - devolved
Social Work - devolved
Housing - devolved
Tourism - devolved

Despite all that, the Scottish Parliament has only managed to pass one bill in the past 12 months - the budget - which they are constitutionally required to pass.  

Strange that eh? One might think the SNP etc are avoiding having to make painful decisions because it might make them look bad and they wouldn't be able to blame everything on "England" and "Westminster"...
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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:29 am

GSC wrote:
Musclular-mouse wrote:
GSC wrote:The same way that a Bill can be passed whether Yorkshire likes it or not, or London etc if the majority side differently. That's democracy.

In an independent Scotland will every citizen get a veto if a decision is made they don't agree with? Is a voter in Aberdeen worth more than 1 in Glasgow when counting votes?

Its a bit different with Scotland as they are a separate state to England. If I was Scottish and I wanted x y or z and the overwhelming majority of Scots wanted x y or z but we were told that we are getting B instead because that's what English people want I would feel hard done by and start wanting independence.

Basically there is no democracy in Scotland, Scottish people have no right to do what they want as they are in effect always going to be told to do what the majority of the English want. Scotland could have voted 100% for remain in the eu vote and yet their voice would still have been squashed because the English voice is louder.

That's ultimately what Scotland voted for, being a part of the UK rather than an independent country, meaning that every Scottish vote is equal to an English vote etc. The UK voted as a whole to leave to the EU, rather than England voting for it and overruling everyone else. Again, that's democracy. There are areas of England that were part of the minority vote as there were people in Scotland who voted to leave.
Come on! You can't phrase things in such a sensible, undeniably logical fashion. Whatever next?
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:31 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Ent wrote:The Scottish electorate is very interesting, a year after rejecting independence they more or less guarantee a conservative government by voting for SNP and costing Labour 40 seats.

Yeah, interesting that wasn't it? They didn't want independence, but thought they'd then vote SNP in droves come the GE. Pretty pathetic IMO.

Do you know why? Frankly, because Scots feel more comfortable that the SNP are fighting in their corner than the options - Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party. Vote for the Scottish branch of those parties and you have an MP who will tow the Westminster partyline regardless of what effect it has on Scotland. Point in fact was Ruth Davidson. On the EU she was fiercely pro-European but you wouldn't know that now. She actually now tries painting the EU exit in a positive light. Shocked
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:35 am

Some Scots feel that way.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:37 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Musclular-mouse wrote:
GSC wrote:The same way that a Bill can be passed whether Yorkshire likes it or not, or London etc if the majority side differently. That's democracy.

In an independent Scotland will every citizen get a veto if a decision is made they don't agree with? Is a voter in Aberdeen worth more than 1 in Glasgow when counting votes?

Its a bit different with Scotland as they are a separate state to England. If I was Scottish and I wanted x y or z and the overwhelming majority of Scots wanted x y or z but we were told that we are getting B instead because that's what English people want I would feel hard done by and start wanting independence.

Basically there is no democracy in Scotland, Scottish people have no right to do what they want as they are in effect always going to be told to do what the majority of the English want. Scotland could have voted 100% for remain in the eu vote and yet their voice would still have been squashed because the English voice is louder.

Taxation - ability to increase and lower taxes
Health - devolved.
Education - devolved
Policing - devolved
Local Government - devolved
Legal system - devolved
Social Work - devolved
Housing - devolved
Tourism - devolved

Despite all that, the Scottish Parliament has only managed to pass one bill in the past 12 months - the budget - which they are constitutionally required to pass.  

Strange that eh? One might think the SNP etc are avoiding having to make painful decisions because it might make them look bad and they wouldn't be able to blame everything on "England" and "Westminster"...

Even more strange that Westminster and the unionist media paint the SNP as not doing a good job running Scotland yet you wouldn't back against them winning the majority of seats in Scotland again. What does that tell us then? That perhaps Scottish voters actually think the SNP aren't doing as bad as some with ulterior motives would have us believe? Voters will vote on performance of parties and if the SNP have been so disastrous then I await a disastrous result in June.
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