Political round up.............

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Political round up.............

Post by GSC on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 11:14 am

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CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:The Scots voted to remain part of the UK.

The UK voted to leave the EU. Every Scottish vote counted the same as every other UK citizen. I don't see the issue.

The Scots (a good number if you look at post-ref stats from neutral sources) decided to vote no on varying issues. One of the main ones was because they feared losing their place in Europe. That won loads of votes for Better Together and has proved to be fruitless for the voters as they are now out of Europe.

The issue is that many Scots sees Scotland as its own country - sure not independent - but very close to it as they have their own government. However, when they vote by 62% to remain in Europe and end up being taken out of Europe it becomes a big issue to many. Yes we know the UK voted to exit but there are perhaps a million plus Scots who fail to recognize or accept being part of the UK or see themselves Scottish first and foremost and feel how they vote should hold more water than it does in the current union.

Sorry Craig, but that's democracy. Why should somebody in Edinburghs vote count more than someone's in London? Almost as ridiculous as Mhairi Black complaining that a region with more inhabitants had more MPs representing it than another region with less MPs.

But such is the politics of the SNP, always phrasing as Scotland vs the rest of the UK (or more accurately England) when Scotland voted to be part of the UK.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 01 Dec 2017, 1:54 pm

3fingers wrote:Bring on brrexit - and cheap Chinese toys. Went into ASDA today, and a barbie doll cost £26!
Is that a slightly colder way of leaving the EU? Just out of interest, did you look to see where that Barbie was actually made?
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 01 Dec 2017, 1:54 pm

Galted wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:An entry hole and a Brexit hole.

I find that deeply offensive. So deeply offensive, in fact, that I'm going to tell everyone on Twitter so that they can be deeply offended too.
Laugh
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 7:25 pm

May tying herself in knots over Brexit talks. She seems intent on giving Northern Ireland a special agreement whilst the rest of the UK gets no such treatment. Amazing and just shows the abhorrent flaws in the workings at Westminster.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by ShahenshahG on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 7:07 am

What's funny is that it looks like the DUP accepted it in private then dissed her in public. I'm betting she probably spent the last few months wishing that she had lost the election.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by Pr4wn on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 1:47 pm

I don't understand the DUP. It's like they miss the fighting.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by ShahenshahG on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 1:57 pm

No I think they don't want the only plausible solution without getting another couple of billion

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by rodders on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 4:16 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:What's funny is that it looks like the DUP accepted it in private then dissed her in public. I'm betting she probably spent the last few months wishing that she had lost the election.

Now people are seeing at a national level what politics in NI is like and why it is so hard to get agreements there Smile.

I personally think that either Arlene agreed to the deal initially but couldn't sell it to her party or Theresa panicked when she saw London, Wales and Scotland wanting a similar arrangement and they concocted this story that the DUP blocked it to buy more time.

Either way it is comical to watch it play out.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by rodders on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 4:29 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:No I think they don't want the only plausible solution without getting another couple of billion

100 billion wouldn't make a difference the harder line unionists would starve before allow a deal which aligns them closer to Ireland and away from GB, so if they perceive that this arrangement will do that they will never agree.

Theresa is snookered. The 3 options facing her are:-

a) She ignores the DUP threat and goes with the deal and risks an election if the DUP MPs pull their support for the tories.

b) She placates the DUP's main concern of customs checks between NI and GB by extending the regulatory alignment promise for the whole UK and likely loses support from the brexiteers in her party, forcing an election.

c) She backs out of the deal and risks the Irish government blocking the progress to the trade talks with the EU.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by Dave. on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 5:14 pm

Rodders - broadly agree with you here.

On a) - think that won't happen. Soubryites and Brexiteers are saying it should be for the whole UK. So its b) or c). Theresa's Choice. My view is she went behind DUP back to get a deal or EU and Varadkar were bouncing her into one.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by Ent on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 5:25 pm

The problem with may is she is stuck in the middle, varadakar and the republic have a veto on the furthering negotiations and any deal and the dup who will not accept any of the workable solutions to the Irish border problem.

There will be a general election and Corbin will get on, he will be much more sympathetic to nationalists in ni - that is how stupid the dup are.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 5:50 pm

The deal to remain in the single market should never have been made anyway. When the Scottish governmentcrequested this a few months ago they were categorically told that was not possible and not going to happen. Amazingvwhat propping up a failing government will get you eh DUP?


Last edited by CaledonianCraig on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by GSC on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 5:57 pm

A party the Tories have bribed have provided more resistance than the opposition have to Brexit so far.

That sums up this whole mess.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by Ent on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 8:03 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:The deal to remain in the single market should never have been made anyway. When the Scottish governmentcrequested this a few months ago they were categorically told that was not possible and not going to happen. Amazingvwhat propping up a failing government will get you eh DUP?

Incorrect, the dup do not want to retain single market membership. What Scotland wants and asks for is irrelevant- NI already had special status due to the good Friday agreement and has the small matter of a land border (with over 100 crossing points) with an eu nation.

May needs to grow a pair and call the dups bluff, they won't risk a GE and ending up with a more nationalist friendly Corbyn gov. They've been using the confidence and supply agreement to avoid restarting the assembly in NI and actually doing what they agreed to do in 2007 in the St. Andrews agreement.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 8:17 pm

The point is they were offered it. That option was an impossibility according to the government. Voices in England, Wales and Scotland all say the same. It should not be one rule for one and one rule for another.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by catchweight on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 9:58 pm

Saying it cannot be one rule for one and not for another is the exact same stance the dup is taking.

Clearly the situation calls for more lateral thinking.

The government has already pretty much conceded to the eu on all its demands anyway and the only thing preventing the latest concession is the potential collapse of the govt. Im not sure its wise to call the dups bluff. These are people who will happily cut off their nose to spite their face and i dont think even a corbyn govt would be enough to motivate them into agreeing to keeping the current arrangement in place. I think privately they would actually welcome a hard border between north and the republic. They operste in fear of a united ireland and want to keep the separation as distinct and obvious as possible.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by Sin é on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 10:06 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:The deal to remain in the single market should never have been made anyway. When the Scottish governmentcrequested this a few months ago they were categorically told that was not possible and not going to happen. Amazingvwhat propping up a failing government will get you eh DUP?

I think treating NI as a Special Area is down to the ROI requesting it. Don't think the DUP are too happy about that. Rodders has probably told you already, apart from the various social and political reasons/Good Friday Agreement, that border would be unpoliciable.

edit: another concession as well that Ireland agreed right in the beginning if (under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement), the island is to reunite, NI would be accepted immediately into the EU.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 5:30 am

Frankly, the Good Friday agreement does not come into it - or at least shouldn't. The discussions are on Brexit. The British government made it crystal clear that a single market was out of the question to Scotland . They made that decision so that,has to be stuck to for all countries in the UK. It seems clear that the desperate Tory government signed a deal with the DUP in a bid to hold onto power and  now Brexit talks are getting complicated have tied themselves in knots and began offering single market to appease Ireland without even consulting with those that are proppingbup the Tory government. Daft, desperate and under-handed.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by catchweight on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 7:43 am

You cant really escape the good friday agreement on the border issue. Even if britain wanted to ignore it, the eu will not.

We are finding out the hard way that really we dont hold the cards in these negotiations.

Really what the brexit vote should have meant is tgat if we vote out then we go quickly. Hard brexit. Hard borders. Wto rules. Thats all thats feasible in a two year timeframe.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by rodders on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 11:27 am

Ent wrote:
May needs to grow a pair and call the dups bluff, they won't risk a GE and ending up with a more nationalist friendly Corbyn gov. They've been using the confidence and supply agreement to avoid restarting the assembly in NI and actually doing what they agreed to do in 2007 in the St. Andrews agreement.

That's exactly what needs to happen. The DUP have no authority here other than having 10 MPs propping up the minority government. They aren't the elected government of NI so have no right to be behaving as the sole negotiator and having the final say on the border.

As Varadakar has said this is between Dublin and London, if May is consulting local politicians on the issue they should be speaking to all elected parties and not just the DUP, who actually only represent a minority of NI as the only party who backed leave.

If the DUP are allowed to dictate the brexit terms for NI then that is a massive threat to the peace process, and ironically the Union.

The fact is without the the UK remaining in the customs union, or at least an agreed regulatory alignment then the issue is not whether there will be a hard or soft border in NI, the question is where the hard border is going to be.

Despite the DUP position on this the lesser threat to the union is if it is a sea border. They are total idiots.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:02 pm

catchweight wrote:

We are finding out the hard way that really we dont hold the cards in these negotiations.

Really what the brexit vote should have meant is tgat if we vote out then we go quickly. Hard brexit. Hard borders. Wto rules. Thats all thats feasible in a  two year timeframe.

I was not too fussed how Brexit vote went but the whole vote was a flawed system. It was just a straight yes or no option. However, ifvit is to be a hard brexit there are a good number of yes voters originally who would not have voted yes so you have a skewed result.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by Ent on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:07 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Frankly, the Good Friday agreement does not come into it - or at least shouldn't. The discussions are on Brexit. The British government made it crystal clear that a single market was out of the question to Scotland . They made that decision so that,has to be stuck to for all countries in the UK. It seems clear that the desperate Tory government signed a deal with the DUP in a bid to hold onto power and  now Brexit talks are getting complicated have tied themselves in knots and began offering single market to appease Ireland without even consulting with those that are proppingbup the Tory government. Daft, desperate and under-handed.

The good Friday agreement doesn't come into if if it doesn't support your position, if you have a brain it does. There are over 120 areas of cross border co operation in strand 2 of the gfa ranging from infrastructure to health care that any sort of hard border or regulatory difference would endanger. For example a person from Donegal would need to go through a border check or have some sort of visa to attend their local chemotherapy unit.

Scotland can't stay in the single market if England doesn't as you can't have a land border between regions within the eu/ eu regulatory body and those that are not. It was never an option for Scotland or Wales.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:22 pm

All four countries in UK have had voices pipe up and say there can be no special conditions for Northern Ireland with regards single market but the Tory government don't get that. They are so wrong on this it is untrue.

The DUP are equally as wrong as well. They are a minority party in NI and have a stance on Brexit that does mirror what NI people want.

Two incompetent parties have created this stupid embarassing situation.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by GSC on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:33 pm

The Tory government are the ones actually having to negotiate this though. Not saying they're doing a good job but it's easier to sit back and pick holes than actually doing it.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:41 pm

GSC wrote:The Tory government are the ones actually having to negotiate this though. Not saying they're doing a good job but it's easier to sit back and pick holes than actually doing it.

They actively supported Brexit and have known for ling enough now ofcthecresult but it seems appatent little or no thought was putvinto the planning and how they'd approach it. Yes it is a difgicult process - no doubt. However, we have seen Tory incompetence outwith Brexit negotiations to know that it is not the toughness of the task that is the problem.here.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:43 pm

Yeah but they've created the problem by declaring the intention to leave the internal market. Hard to be sympathetic towards government incompetence when it's created the problem it's failing to solve in the first place. This wasn't a decision made by governments years in the past, Lancaster house speech created this problem so boo f*cking hoo.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:51 pm

Look if they get a Norway style deal for the interim we can leave the European union and the single market in stages and actually leave. If they do it this disastrous way we'll end up either joining again or face utter ruin. This will also largely mitigate the border issue and we can keep access to the current trade deals we have now and negotiate new ones albeit we won't be able to sell market access like we used to. Then once those treaties are signed we can leave properly and go our merry way taking a smaller and more manageable hit than otherwise.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:52 pm

And lets remember they are the ones who jumped into bed with the DUP a few months ago when Brexit discussions were well underway. They must have known the DUP's agenda on the matter yet still went into this agreement with them. More Tory incompetence.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by rodders on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 3:59 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:Yeah but they've created the problem by declaring the intention to leave the internal market.

And the reason they did that was to remove themselves from any jurisdiction of the EU and control their borders.

Then they simultaneously say they don't want a hard border in Ireland and the EU are imposing it.

So to avoid a hard border they need regulatory alignment with EU standards, for free movement of goods, so effectively they are suggesting leaving the single market but then agreeing to adhere to all its rules to secure a trade deal and soft brexit.

It is so ridiculous it is simply beyond belief.

And how David Davis is in his post is amazing, he's actually made himself look stupider than May this week in his admission that they have done no analysis on the impact of brexit after saying previously they had done 50 or 60 studies.
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Re: Political round up.............

Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 4:04 pm

Re...Brexit impact analysis..

Scandalous if true..Corbyn is useless but Govts lose Elections..Oppositions don't win them..

The ineptitude of this Govt is unworldly..

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 4:12 pm

rodders wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Yeah but they've created the problem by declaring the intention to leave the internal market.  

And the reason they did that was to remove themselves from any jurisdiction of the EU and control their borders.

Then they simultaneously say they don't want a hard border in Ireland and the EU are imposing it.

So to avoid a hard border they need regulatory alignment with EU standards, for free movement of goods, so effectively they are suggesting leaving the single market but then agreeing to adhere to all its rules to secure a trade deal and soft brexit.

It is so ridiculous it is simply beyond belief.

And how David Davis is in his post is amazing, he's actually made himself look stupider than May this week in his admission that they have done no analysis on the impact of brexit after saying previously they had done 50 or 60 studies.

How dare you? Are you ignorant of the power of positive thinking and it's ability to get us great trade deals for free?

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by catchweight on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 5:10 pm

Most of the Tory Brexiteers weren’t really voting to leave the E.U. It was closer to renegotiating our position with the EU that they wanted. They felt unable to do it within the EU so thought if we vote out then we simple renegotiate the bits we want to keep. As Boris Johnson said – we can have our cake and eat it.

A ridiculously naïve mindset carried out in a most reckless fashion. By all mean make the argument to leave but at least have a plan on how to do it and what it entails.

We are now just paying 50 Billion to leave so we can re-negotiate less favourable terms and spend unlimited time and effort trying to extract ourselves.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 06 Dec 2017, 8:35 pm

I have no idea what Tory Brexiteers are thinking but I know that May is surviving because..

1. The Tories know they will lose a GE..
2. Changing leader would probably lead to a GE and Corbyn has a firewall of 40 percent..
3. Corbyn would rather be on his allotment than in Downig street.
4. The left wingers that are using Corbyn haven't achieved their main ambition which is to own Labour...

Strange times we live in...Enjoy them....

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 12:39 pm

Hospitals beds are currently being used at 98 percent of capacity...Winter hasn't even kicked in yet...Disturbing.

(Survation.....)

Men...Con 42...Lab 41..

Women.. Con 33..Lab 48..

Next GE could be a battle of the sexes...




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Re: Political round up.............

Post by Samo on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 3:30 pm

Amazed when I woke up that David Davis still has a job. Is May actually running the show or is she just the face of it?

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by Pr4wn on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 3:47 pm

He demonstrably lied and clearly has absolutely no idea of what he's doing.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by Samo on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 3:55 pm

Pr4wn wrote:He demonstrably lied and clearly has absolutely no idea of what he's doing.

Can you imagine if it was Diane Abbott?

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by Pr4wn on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 4:02 pm

Samo wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:He demonstrably lied and clearly has absolutely no idea of what he's doing.

Can you imagine if it was Diane Abbott?  

It would be Keir Starmer. I know who I'd trust.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 5:50 pm

The Tories own Brexit.....Last thing Labour want is to be in Government right now...Especially with their spending plans...

As for David Davis I'm glad he is still in the job and likewise May....The longer they stay the crapper the Tories look.

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Re: Political round up.............

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 07 Dec 2017, 10:20 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The Tories own Brexit.....Last thing Labour want is to be in Government right now...Especially with their spending plans...

As for David Davis I'm glad he is still in the job and likewise May....The longer they stay the crapper the Tories look.
I'll drink to that.
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Re: Political round up.............

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