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Post by GSC on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 11:14 am

First topic message reminder :

CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:The Scots voted to remain part of the UK.

The UK voted to leave the EU. Every Scottish vote counted the same as every other UK citizen. I don't see the issue.

The Scots (a good number if you look at post-ref stats from neutral sources) decided to vote no on varying issues. One of the main ones was because they feared losing their place in Europe. That won loads of votes for Better Together and has proved to be fruitless for the voters as they are now out of Europe.

The issue is that many Scots sees Scotland as its own country - sure not independent - but very close to it as they have their own government. However, when they vote by 62% to remain in Europe and end up being taken out of Europe it becomes a big issue to many. Yes we know the UK voted to exit but there are perhaps a million plus Scots who fail to recognize or accept being part of the UK or see themselves Scottish first and foremost and feel how they vote should hold more water than it does in the current union.

Sorry Craig, but that's democracy. Why should somebody in Edinburghs vote count more than someone's in London? Almost as ridiculous as Mhairi Black complaining that a region with more inhabitants had more MPs representing it than another region with less MPs.

But such is the politics of the SNP, always phrasing as Scotland vs the rest of the UK (or more accurately England) when Scotland voted to be part of the UK.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 3:21 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Yeah but as has been said, you can't keep having a vote when something happens that you don't like. If it weren't for the fact it was a murky debate (by both sides equally) i'd would be saying you have to lump it.

You were outvoted at the time, and at this moment that's all that matters. bit like Brexit, doesn't matter what you'd do now, it's what happened then that matters

Sorry I disagree. When there is a strong enough voice for something then it merits revisiting. I mean look how often we have General Elections? Averaging about one every three or four years in recent times. When the Tories win the next one it doesn't mean we don't have another election in our lifetime does it? If they screw up they could be hauled into another election in a couple of years time. The same should apply on the matter of independence should things change and as long as support for it remains at a strong level. By all means should the swell of support fall away to a sustained level around 30 to 35% then by all means don't revisit it. That is my take on it. In my lifetime I've seen many voted on emotive topics which are revisited time and again.
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Post by Derbymanc on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 3:28 pm

It's something that shouldn't be brought out everytime your unhappy with something, as i said personally i'd start telling the snp to stuff it.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 3:30 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:And if a union is not working it is time to divorce and move on and that is the juncture we have reached here.

Scots are being governed from Westminster by parties with a handful of seats in Scotland - that has been the case now for a decade and counting. Well it will be a lot longer soon as the Tories will win the next election but have only a handful of seats in Scotland.

Scottish views on politics is far removed from that of the rest of the UK now, a big proportion of its population want independence and abhor Tory policies. Those are the grounds for divorce and people want a government that can decide for itself on crucial matters on Europe and such-like and at present that is certainly not the case. The options open are carry on in discontentment in a union that a growing body of people don't want or seek independence and be able to run Scotland with Scotland's interests first and foremost in mind.

But still a significant minority.  

A minority containing well over a million people. If you look at staunch voters you probably have a fixed set of 40% who will vote yes come what may and probably around 40% who will vote no come what may with around 20% of the electorate either undecided or unsure of how they will vote. And yes it is still a growing body of people supporting independence. The converts to those backing independence compared to the converts to those backing unionism is stark. It is why the SNP is the most popular party in Scotland at present. It is up to Labour and Tories to do something about that but they don't know how though the answer is staring them in the face.

WST poll....How would you vote in a Scottish referendum ???....

Jun 2016 ....................Yes 47%......................No 41%

Sept 2016....................Yes 42%.....................No 48%

Mar 2017 (latest)..........Yes 37%.....................No 48%...................


Doesn't quite back up your argument really does it ??

All selective as I see you leave out 6th of March poll with Yes 47% No 46%.

One poll...

..WST gives you a trend of 12 months...and it is downwards.

But you aren't interested in facts are you ?..It's like debating a Corbyn supporter.


Lots of evidence around:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39265997

If you honestly believe the appetite for Independence is floundering then shall we see that in the general election? Scottish Tories halving the SNP seats? No I don't think so. And yes it should show in the election as the leaflets coming through my letterbox before being binned from Scottish Conservatives was exclusively a seven or eight bullet point plea to vote for Conservative to block another referendum. In that case then I await a storming general election result for the Tories in Scotland if the appetite for independence really is on the wain as you claim. Shame you cannot debate without resorting to petty remarks.
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Post by Derbymanc on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 3:33 pm

What are the latest polls saying?
The survey comes as two polls look at the Scottish independence question.
The Scottish Daily Mail's poll of 1,019 adults, which was carried out between 8-13 March, suggested that when "don't knows" are discounted, people in Scotland would vote 53% to 47% to stay a part of the UK.
The Times Scotland's poll of 1,028 adults, which was carried out between 9-14 March, suggested that when "don't knows" are discounted, people in Scotland would vote 57% to 43% to stay a part of the UK.

That's from the article Craig so atm it still shows a majority for remain

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 3:36 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:And if a union is not working it is time to divorce and move on and that is the juncture we have reached here.

Scots are being governed from Westminster by parties with a handful of seats in Scotland - that has been the case now for a decade and counting. Well it will be a lot longer soon as the Tories will win the next election but have only a handful of seats in Scotland.

Scottish views on politics is far removed from that of the rest of the UK now, a big proportion of its population want independence and abhor Tory policies. Those are the grounds for divorce and people want a government that can decide for itself on crucial matters on Europe and such-like and at present that is certainly not the case. The options open are carry on in discontentment in a union that a growing body of people don't want or seek independence and be able to run Scotland with Scotland's interests first and foremost in mind.

But still a significant minority.  

A minority containing well over a million people. If you look at staunch voters you probably have a fixed set of 40% who will vote yes come what may and probably around 40% who will vote no come what may with around 20% of the electorate either undecided or unsure of how they will vote. And yes it is still a growing body of people supporting independence. The converts to those backing independence compared to the converts to those backing unionism is stark. It is why the SNP is the most popular party in Scotland at present. It is up to Labour and Tories to do something about that but they don't know how though the answer is staring them in the face.

WST poll....How would you vote in a Scottish referendum ???....

Jun 2016 ....................Yes 47%......................No 41%

Sept 2016....................Yes 42%.....................No 48%

Mar 2017 (latest)..........Yes 37%.....................No 48%...................


Doesn't quite back up your argument really does it ??

All selective as I see you leave out 6th of March poll with Yes 47% No 46%.

One poll...

..WST gives you a trend of 12 months...and it is downwards.

But you aren't interested in facts are you ?..It's like debating a Corbyn supporter.


Lots of evidence around:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39265997

If you honestly believe the appetite for Independence is floundering then shall we see that in the general election? Scottish Tories halving the SNP seats? No I don't think so. And yes it should show in the election as the leaflets coming through my letterbox before being binned from Scottish Conservatives was exclusively a seven or eight bullet point plea to vote for Conservative to block another referendum. In that case then I await a storming general election result for the Tories in Scotland if the appetite for independence really is on the wain as you claim. Shame you cannot debate without resorting to petty remarks.

My opinion doesn't count...........But this time last year according to the WST Yes was 6 points up...............Now it is 11 points down......

The Conservative argument is a straw man.......SNP will only have opposition when Labour gets it act together and you know that....

This GE won't tell us anything we don't already know.........SNP is benefitting from the end of Blair and an incompetent current leader....

Whether that means there is a true overwhelming desire for Nationalism remains open to debate..

I'm open to that debate.............You are closed.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 3:53 pm

Derbymanc wrote:What are the latest polls saying?
The survey comes as two polls look at the Scottish independence question.
The Scottish Daily Mail's poll of 1,019 adults, which was carried out between 8-13 March, suggested that when "don't knows" are discounted, people in Scotland would vote 53% to 47% to stay a part of the UK.
The Times Scotland's poll of 1,028 adults, which was carried out between 9-14 March, suggested that when "don't knows" are discounted, people in Scotland would vote 57% to 43% to stay a part of the UK.

That's from the article Craig so atm it still shows a majority for remain

Polls vary but are all around the same mark at present as in remain holds advantage but certainly in no fashion that suggests the call for independence is wilting in any way. The interesting ones will be the ones in the coming months as political landscapes change and recent events are taken into account. The point is that a defeat against independence in 2014 has not seen people give up at all - that same level of support remains.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 3:57 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

I'm open to that debate.............You are closed.

Closed? No I am here debating. You don't agree with me and I don't agree with you. Lets just leave it there.
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Post by Derbymanc on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 4:06 pm

I would have expected it to stay roughly the same, those that want independance don't suddenly do a 180 on their views because they were beaten in a referendum.

doesn't change the fact they're still in the minority and unless there's a significant jump either way then really the topic should be closed

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 4:11 pm

Derbymanc wrote:I would have expected it to stay roughly the same, those that want independance don't suddenly do a 180 on their views because they were beaten in a referendum.

doesn't change the fact they're still in the minority and unless there's a significant jump either way then really the topic should be closed

As I said the staunch voters are around 40% on each side. Around 20% are floaters, waiverers, don't knows so it anyone's guess how they'd vote again. Another thing to consider - EU Nationals. Last time around they voted by quite a margin as no to independence on European grounds - that has all changed now as in Scotland will head out of Europe with the rest of the UK.
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Post by Derbymanc on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 4:21 pm

That's the only point where i agree that a second referendum should happen Craig and that's with the spin put on things in the first place.

Everything else is bumph and guff and should make no difference unless there's a massive (and i mean a good 15 percent not 1 or 2) change in what the voters say

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 5:16 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

I'm open to that debate.............You are closed.

Closed? No I am here debating. You don't agree with me and I don't agree with you. Lets just leave it there.

Thing is I don't know if you're right........I have as much idea whether Scottish people are frothing at the mouth to become independent as you do...

The point is the polls are trending against it.....Like they were Trump.....

You make statements that aren't substantiated by the facts....Just pointing that out. Not that you're interested because like I pointed out earlier.....You're a closed shop...

"SNP = Good....Everyone else = Bad".......Good luck to you....Passion is a wonderful thing.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 5:22 pm

SNP = only party that calls for Scottish Independence
Everyone else = parties that run a million miles from the idea

Isn't it natural that a person that wants Scottish Independence would tie his horse to the SNP wagon?


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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 5:29 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

I'm open to that debate.............You are closed.

Closed? No I am here debating. You don't agree with me and I don't agree with you. Lets just leave it there.

Thing is I don't know if you're right........I have as much idea whether Scottish people are frothing at the mouth to become independent as you do...

The point is the polls are trending against it.....Like they were Trump.....

You make statements that aren't substantiated by the facts....Just pointing that out.  Not that you're interested because like I pointed out earlier.....You're a closed shop...

"SNP = Good....Everyone else = Bad".......Good luck to you....Passion is a wonderful thing.

Sorry but you are wrong. And see SecretFly for the reason why. SNP are pushing for independence (which I back) whilst Tories and Labour are anti-independence. If they changed their stance and spoke for themselves rather than Westminster then they may just may begin to interest me. At present they are a million miles from that position.
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Post by GSC on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 5:35 pm

If a majority don't back independence, surely that means that there's an appetite for parties that back that view.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 5:40 pm

GSC wrote:If a majority don't back independence, surely that means that there's an appetite for parties that back that view.

Of course but remember the percentages. The SNP hold around 48% of the electorate so leaves 52% for the rest. The unionist parties are Tory, Labour and LibDem who take votes from each other generally - three into 52% equals a lot less than the 48% held by the SNP hence why they hold so many seats. Disenchanted Labour voters have either jumped ship to the SNP or their age old hatred of Tories mean they won't vote for them unless they hate the SNP or thought of loss of unionism more.
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Post by GSC on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 5:48 pm

That's assuming independence remains the primary issue for most voters, should the SNP lose again, it's hard to see it coming back as a serious prospect for a couple of decades.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 5:54 pm

GSC wrote:That's assuming independence remains the primary issue for most voters, should the SNP lose again, it's hard to see it coming back as a serious prospect for a couple of decades.

We've been through one independence loss and the back of the support for independence hasn't been broken so even a second defeat wouldn't do that UNLESS there was a marked change in the result such as 60% for No and a dip in Yes to sub-40%. If that sort of result happened I'd happily say lets forget it for now. I can't see that happening though.
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Post by GSC on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 6:00 pm

If you lose 2 at this level of support, and need an excuse the size of leaving the EU to call one, hard to see the next leader sticking their career on in the line for anything less than 55% support
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 6:08 pm

GSC wrote:If you lose 2 at this level of support, and need an excuse the size of leaving the EU to call one, hard to see the next leader sticking their career on in the line for anything less than 55% support

It does depend on what lies ahead. One thing I am very confident of is that the tide is going one way. By this I mean there is enough going on to stoke the fires of discontent amongst Scots. When you have May saying 'Now is not the time for another referendum' and then days later announces it IS time for a snap election,when you have a Hard Brexit on the horizon with Scotland having no say in it and other issues then you get the picture that there isn't anything on the horizon to turn independence supporters into union supporters for the forseeable future.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 8:40 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:They certainly do. They stand for a party who will ALWAYS look to fatten the wallets of their own and at the expense of everyone else. The sort that pay themselves ludicrous pay increases yet throttle nurses pay rise at 1%, the sort that want to bring in a bill to penalize raped women, who are looking to bring in a Hard Brexit. Basically, they are the party for the rich. I have never voted Tory in my life and I never will. Their policies or should I say motives have always been the same. Fleece the poor to feed the rich. Greatest example of that was the Poll Tax and YTS.
Nonsensical....as usual.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 8:44 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:My Wife and Father in law are Conservatives and they are pretty much big believers in a non-Unitary state...Less government....That all people should be taxed less including the rich as money gets pumped back into the economy....People earn more they spend more....

Nothing wrong with that view...Me ??..I believe in the Nanny State because if there is one thing I have learned it is that many people need nannying.

Room for all views though....Try not to stereotype too much...Unless you're stereotyping Liberal Dems..

That is okay.. Cool


That does not explain away them giving themselves ridiculous pay rises way above that of inflation but capping nurses pay rises to 1% - a profession that actually earns its money. And then of course we hear of all their expenses which they have the nerve to claim as well that stretches to thousands of pounds for meal allowances at Westminster. Nauseating.
Assuming you're correct re. politicians pay rises, you're being childishly naïve. I'd say running a Country was worth a decent pay packet wouldn't you (and it's an independent pay body that recommends MPs increases now) and paying nurses etc, across the board, a decent pay rise is absurdly expensive cf. a few hundred MPs. Not that I'm saying nurses aren't worth paying well, but how are you proposing to pay a such a nice increase?
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 8:49 pm

Pr4wn wrote:The last thing Britain needs during these tense negotiations is a Scots Independence Referendum, far too distracting from the task at hand.

Let's have a General Election instead. Much better.
Straw Man - this'll be over on June 9th of this year. Wasn't Jimmy Cranky talking about 2018/19 for indyref2?
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 8:51 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:But how can she be trusted? This is a woman who boasted she isn't for turning and since that comment she has turned twice in the last month or two. First to change the budget after a massive man sausage-up and second to call a snap election after earlier insisting that wouldn't happen. She has more turns than a Byrds hit single.
So, you're of the view that politicians who **** up should stick with their **** ups then? Seems a bit dumb to me.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 8:55 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Debates at the PM's say so....Another slap for democracy..

But Cameron is to blame..He said three debates were a democratic right of the people in 2010 and then would only do one when it served him in 2015.

British democracy is a joke....Proud to be American.
Laugh Ah yes, with that lobbying etc, loading the Supreme Court with those of your own political bent, acting so maturely in the Senate and House...? They're no different.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 9:18 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:They certainly do. They stand for a party who will ALWAYS look to fatten the wallets of their own and at the expense of everyone else. The sort that pay themselves ludicrous pay increases yet throttle nurses pay rise at 1%, the sort that want to bring in a bill to penalize raped women, who are looking to bring in a Hard Brexit. Basically, they are the party for the rich. I have never voted Tory in my life and I never will. Their policies or should I say motives have always been the same. Fleece the poor to feed the rich. Greatest example of that was the Poll Tax and YTS.
Nonsensical....as usual.

No not at all. I find all that they stand for abhorrent. Their policies are an absolute opposite of what I want from my political parties. Shame you can't accept that.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 9:21 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:But how can she be trusted? This is a woman who boasted she isn't for turning and since that comment she has turned twice in the last month or two. First to change the budget after a massive man sausage-up and second to call a snap election after earlier insisting that wouldn't happen. She has more turns than a Byrds hit single.
So, you're of the view that politicians who **** up should stick with their **** ups then? Seems a bit dumb to me.

More of a view of why try to make yourself bigger than you are with boasts and then can't back it up. Fair enough if you stick by your guns but when you u-turn on such things your word means less and less.
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Post by Ent on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 11:00 pm

The Scottish electorate is very interesting, a year after rejecting independence they more or less guarantee a conservative government by voting for SNP and costing Labour 40 seats.


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Post by Muscular-mouse on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 11:04 pm

Ent wrote:The Scottish electorate is very interesting, a year after rejecting independence they more or less guarantee a conservative government by voting for SNP and costing Labour 40 seats.


With or without those seats labour would not have won the 2015 GE. However I think that labour and the SNP would have joined a coalition had the opportunity arisen.

I still think a labour/lib dem/snp coalition would be a possibility come june.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 6:49 am

Ent wrote:The Scottish electorate is very interesting, a year after rejecting independence they more or less guarantee a conservative government by voting for SNP and costing Labour 40 seats.

Because a vote for Labour is a vote for a party that does not look after Scotland's interests that is why. Scots are wise to the fact that Tory and Labour in Scotland are Westminster-first and Scotland-last politically minded.
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Post by Ent on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 7:37 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Ent wrote:The Scottish electorate is very interesting, a year after rejecting independence they more or less guarantee a conservative government by voting for SNP and costing Labour 40 seats.

Because a vote for Labour is a vote for a party that does not look after Scotland's interests that is why. Scots are wise to the fact that Tory and Labour in Scotland are Westminster-first and Scotland-last politically minded.

Not to point out the obvious but it is a westminster election.

There is devolved government with elections to Holyrood to look after Scotland's interests.

A vote for the SNP is a vote for a conservative government, it is very very simple - until Labour take back Scotland we will be a one party nation.

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Post by superflyweight on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:14 am

Classic nationalist behaviour being exhibited here. Apparently only a nationalist can act in the best interests of the country at heart.

Symptomatic of the current view that SNP = Scotland.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:16 am

Ent wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Ent wrote:The Scottish electorate is very interesting, a year after rejecting independence they more or less guarantee a conservative government by voting for SNP and costing Labour 40 seats.

Because a vote for Labour is a vote for a party that does not look after Scotland's interests that is why. Scots are wise to the fact that Tory and Labour in Scotland are Westminster-first and Scotland-last politically minded.

Not to point out the obvious but it is a westminster election.

There is devolved government with elections to Holyrood to look after Scotland's interests.

A vote for the SNP is a vote for a conservative government, it is very very simple - until Labour take back Scotland we will be a one party nation.

But that totally depends on your own viewpoint on what you desire more? Scots (well a hard core 40% of them crave independence first and foremost) and Scottish Labour are anti-independence. A vote for Labour in Scotland is a vote for unionism. Says Scots voted en-masse for Labour and it dethroned the Tories what would it mean to Scots who want independence? It would see Scottish Labour ruling out another independence referendum and we would have a Westminster puppet party in charge at Holyrood. You won't find many Scots that find that a palatible option at all.
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Post by GSC on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:19 am

I'd guess I'd find 60% of Scots finding it palatable to be honest.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:20 am

superflyweight wrote:Classic nationalist behaviour being exhibited here.  Apparently only a nationalist can act in the best interests of the country at heart.  

Symptomatic of the current view that SNP = Scotland.      

Your point? We have already agreed that all political parties are nationalists. It all depends what nation you see yourself as. Nationalist Conservative and Labour are British Nationalists whilst SNP are Scottish Nationalists. Both believe in what is best for their beliefs.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:32 am

GSC wrote:I'd guess I'd find 60% of Scots finding it palatable to be honest.

You are still not getting it. I explained this last night but here goes again.

At present the SNP (pro-independence party) have support in the electorate in Scotland in the high 40%.

Elsewhere you have Scottish Conservative (or should I give them their new branding of Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party), Scottish Labour and LibDems (all pro-unionist parties) who (combined) have around 45% of the electorate. Those three parties are squabbling amongst themselves for the 45% whilst the SNP have nobody squabbling with them for their high 40%. Now do you get it? In short staunch Labour who are not so staunch unionists will take their vote anywhere rather than the Tories.

The solution? Well quite simple really it needs either Scottish Tories or Scottish Labour to look at what the Scottish electorate want. A staunch 40% are strong independence backers which is a heck of a chunk of the electorate that they are alienating. They need to take a step back and water down their stance on independence and change their stance to something like we'll monitor public opinion on it or won't rule it out i the future if it is what Scots really want. That will pull in voters they will not get at present. It works both ways as well. If there is to be another IndyRef I feel the Yes Campaign needs to change their stance on Europe as well. I'd prefer them using rhetoric such as we'll poll an independent Scotland on Europe in the near future so as to appeal to Euro sceptics as well as the pro-European.
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Post by superflyweight on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:39 am

We didn't agree that at all. We agreed on the existence of British nationalism and Scottish nationalism.

Why does a party which believes in the pooling and sharing of resources from and between the constituent parts of the United Kingdom (an arrangement which currently benefits Scotland to the tune of circa £1,300 per person per annum) have less claim to be acting in the best interests of Scotland than the SNP? It's a matter of opinion.

You're a "blood and soil" nationalist and it's pretty clear that the economics and practicalities of independence don't matter to you. That's fine - you're more than entitled to adopt that position - I prefer to be pragmatic and more circumspect about changing a status quo which for the most part has served us well and which is currently supporting our economy.

Neither of us should pretend though that our view is somehow superior to the other and that only our respective views represent what is best for our country.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 9:49 am

superflyweight wrote:

Neither of us should pretend though that our view is somehow superior to the other and that only our respective views represent what is best for our country.        

All I've done here is point out opinions of how things stand in Scotland. People have totally different visions of the future for Scotland. Those that want Scotland to have its on say on Europe and decide for itself and on other issues all of which do not happen within the union. OIr you have the other side of the coin who prefer a status quo but after the last year or so it is evident Scots voices are not heard.

I will no doubt be correctly told this is a democracy. Well the reality of the situation is that what Scotland wants politically is far removed from what the majority of the rest of the UK wants so in short the vast majority of Scotland's voice is lost. Lets be honest here - when future referendums or bills or laws are voted on it will be passed whether Scots want it or not. Some union. No doubt will hear back how being in the union gets us this and that financially. Seems to me to be at a price as long as we cower in the corner and don't talk back. That is not for me thanks.
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Post by superflyweight on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 10:26 am

"Cower"? For f*ck sake!

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Post by GSC on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 11:01 am

The same way that a Bill can be passed whether Yorkshire likes it or not, or London etc if the majority side differently. That's democracy.

In an independent Scotland will every citizen get a veto if a decision is made they don't agree with? Is a voter in Aberdeen worth more than 1 in Glasgow when counting votes?
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Post by superflyweight on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 11:04 am

It would have been nice if all those currently moaning about how their votes aren't heard (whether based in Scotland or otherwise) had bothered to turn up and vote during the PR referendum.

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Post by GSC on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 11:12 am

Much like the kids moaning on vine that old people had ruined their future after the EU one.
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Post by Muscular-mouse on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 11:31 am

GSC wrote:The same way that a Bill can be passed whether Yorkshire likes it or not, or London etc if the majority side differently. That's democracy.

In an independent Scotland will every citizen get a veto if a decision is made they don't agree with? Is a voter in Aberdeen worth more than 1 in Glasgow when counting votes?

Its a bit different with Scotland as they are a separate state to England. If I was Scottish and I wanted x y or z and the overwhelming majority of Scots wanted x y or z but we were told that we are getting B instead because that's what English people want I would feel hard done by and start wanting independence.

Basically there is no democracy in Scotland, Scottish people have no right to do what they want as they are in effect always going to be told to do what the majority of the English want. Scotland could have voted 100% for remain in the eu vote and yet their voice would still have been squashed because the English voice is louder.

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Post by superflyweight on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 11:44 am

Musclular-mouse wrote:
GSC wrote:The same way that a Bill can be passed whether Yorkshire likes it or not, or London etc if the majority side differently. That's democracy.

In an independent Scotland will every citizen get a veto if a decision is made they don't agree with? Is a voter in Aberdeen worth more than 1 in Glasgow when counting votes?

Its a bit different with Scotland as they are a separate state to England. If I was Scottish and I wanted x y or z and the overwhelming majority of Scots wanted x y or z but we were told that we are getting B instead because that's what English people want I would feel hard done by and start wanting independence.

Basically there is no democracy in Scotland, Scottish people have no right to do what they want as they are in effect always going to be told to do what the majority of the English want. Scotland could have voted 100% for remain in the eu vote and yet their voice would still have been squashed because the English voice is louder.

Taxation - ability to increase and lower taxes
Health - devolved.
Education - devolved
Policing - devolved
Local Government - devolved
Legal system - devolved
Social Work - devolved
Housing - devolved
Tourism - devolved

Despite all that, the Scottish Parliament has only managed to pass one bill in the past 12 months - the budget - which they are constitutionally required to pass.


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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 11:49 am

Musclular-mouse wrote:
GSC wrote:The same way that a Bill can be passed whether Yorkshire likes it or not, or London etc if the majority side differently. That's democracy.

In an independent Scotland will every citizen get a veto if a decision is made they don't agree with? Is a voter in Aberdeen worth more than 1 in Glasgow when counting votes?

Its a bit different with Scotland as they are a separate state to England. If I was Scottish and I wanted x y or z and the overwhelming majority of Scots wanted x y or z but we were told that we are getting B instead because that's what English people want I would feel hard done by and start wanting independence.

Basically there is no democracy in Scotland, Scottish people have no right to do what they want as they are in effect always going to be told to do what the majority of the English want. Scotland could have voted 100% for remain in the eu vote and yet their voice would still have been squashed because the English voice is louder.

Spot on.

Democracy is basically split 86% what England wants, 8.5% what Scotland wants, 3% what Wales wants and 2.5 what Northern Ireland wants. So any referendums on major issues will basically go the way of what England wants. People in Scotland are wise to that now and whilst some accept that unconditionally others don't hence the state of affairs we are in now. Unionists within Scotland see the union as their nirvana that they have lived their lives with and don't want to see any other way forward as they feel financially secure. The pro-independence supporters have different views on the road forward - a road that allows Scots to be governed by Scots outwith the union and be self-determining on its way forward.
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Post by superflyweight on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 11:55 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Musclular-mouse wrote:
GSC wrote:The same way that a Bill can be passed whether Yorkshire likes it or not, or London etc if the majority side differently. That's democracy.

In an independent Scotland will every citizen get a veto if a decision is made they don't agree with? Is a voter in Aberdeen worth more than 1 in Glasgow when counting votes?

Its a bit different with Scotland as they are a separate state to England. If I was Scottish and I wanted x y or z and the overwhelming majority of Scots wanted x y or z but we were told that we are getting B instead because that's what English people want I would feel hard done by and start wanting independence.

Basically there is no democracy in Scotland, Scottish people have no right to do what they want as they are in effect always going to be told to do what the majority of the English want. Scotland could have voted 100% for remain in the eu vote and yet their voice would still have been squashed because the English voice is louder.

Spot on.

Democracy is basically split 86% what England wants, 8.5% what Scotland wants, 3% what Wales wants and 2.5 what Northern Ireland wants. So any referendums on major issues will basically go the way of what England wants. People in Scotland are wise to that now and whilst some accept that unconditionally others don't hence the state of affairs we are in now. Unionists within Scotland see the union as their nirvana that they have lived their lives with and don't want to see any other way forward as they feel financially secure. The pro-independence supporters have different views on the road forward - a road that allows Scots to be governed by Scots outwith the union and be self-determining on its way forward.

I'm 99.9% sure that your percentages are bullsh1t.  

Are you agreeing with the assertion that there is no democracy in Scotland?  It's an unbelievably stupid thing to say.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 12:07 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
Musclular-mouse wrote:
GSC wrote:The same way that a Bill can be passed whether Yorkshire likes it or not, or London etc if the majority side differently. That's democracy.

In an independent Scotland will every citizen get a veto if a decision is made they don't agree with? Is a voter in Aberdeen worth more than 1 in Glasgow when counting votes?

Its a bit different with Scotland as they are a separate state to England. If I was Scottish and I wanted x y or z and the overwhelming majority of Scots wanted x y or z but we were told that we are getting B instead because that's what English people want I would feel hard done by and start wanting independence.

Basically there is no democracy in Scotland, Scottish people have no right to do what they want as they are in effect always going to be told to do what the majority of the English want. Scotland could have voted 100% for remain in the eu vote and yet their voice would still have been squashed because the English voice is louder.

Spot on.

Democracy is basically split 86% what England wants, 8.5% what Scotland wants, 3% what Wales wants and 2.5 what Northern Ireland wants. So any referendums on major issues will basically go the way of what England wants. People in Scotland are wise to that now and whilst some accept that unconditionally others don't hence the state of affairs we are in now. Unionists within Scotland see the union as their nirvana that they have lived their lives with and don't want to see any other way forward as they feel financially secure. The pro-independence supporters have different views on the road forward - a road that allows Scots to be governed by Scots outwith the union and be self-determining on its way forward.

I'm 99.9% sure that your percentages are bullsh1t.  

Are you agreeing with the assertion that there is no democracy in Scotland?  It's an unbelievably stupid thing to say.

You really cannot follow Scottish politics can you?

The political landscape in Scotland is like night and day compared to the rest of the UK. The SNP are by far the most popular party in Scotland with the two parties who have had a virtual monopoly on forming govrenments in Westminster for centuries feeding off the crumbs with three seats between them.

That speaks volumes for what the Scottish electorate believe in and how they want their country run. However, at present we have a Conservative government (with one seat in Scotland) deciding on a Hard Brexit (a Brexit Scotland did not vote for). The democracy you speak of is one that means that what English voters want they will get from the union. That is the harsh truth.
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 12:10 pm

superflyweight wrote:

Are you agreeing with the assertion that there is no democracy in Scotland?  It's an unbelievably stupid thing to say.
Oh Democracy is everywhere....but there is more of it in England. OK  

"Everyone is equal but....." and all that Orwellian jazz.

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Post by GSC on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 12:11 pm

Musclular-mouse wrote:
GSC wrote:The same way that a Bill can be passed whether Yorkshire likes it or not, or London etc if the majority side differently. That's democracy.

In an independent Scotland will every citizen get a veto if a decision is made they don't agree with? Is a voter in Aberdeen worth more than 1 in Glasgow when counting votes?

Its a bit different with Scotland as they are a separate state to England. If I was Scottish and I wanted x y or z and the overwhelming majority of Scots wanted x y or z but we were told that we are getting B instead because that's what English people want I would feel hard done by and start wanting independence.

Basically there is no democracy in Scotland, Scottish people have no right to do what they want as they are in effect always going to be told to do what the majority of the English want. Scotland could have voted 100% for remain in the eu vote and yet their voice would still have been squashed because the English voice is louder.

That's ultimately what Scotland voted for, being a part of the UK rather than an independent country, meaning that every Scottish vote is equal to an English vote etc. The UK voted as a whole to leave to the EU, rather than England voting for it and overruling everyone else. Again, that's democracy. There are areas of England that were part of the minority vote as there were people in Scotland who voted to leave.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 12:15 pm

Scotland democratically voted to remain.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 21 Apr 2017, 12:24 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Scotland democratically voted to remain.

We have been here before. Check back on what the key selling points to remain were and you'll find the old chestnut that Scots were told they'd lose their place i Europe if they voted to leave the UK. Given that 62% of Scots that voted on Brexit voted to remain in Europe suggests that the European card was important and now here we are staring down a double-barrelled shotgun at a Hard Brexit. That changes peoples views readily on how they'd vote again.
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