Political round up.............

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Post by GSC on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 11:14 am

First topic message reminder :

CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:The Scots voted to remain part of the UK.

The UK voted to leave the EU. Every Scottish vote counted the same as every other UK citizen. I don't see the issue.

The Scots (a good number if you look at post-ref stats from neutral sources) decided to vote no on varying issues. One of the main ones was because they feared losing their place in Europe. That won loads of votes for Better Together and has proved to be fruitless for the voters as they are now out of Europe.

The issue is that many Scots sees Scotland as its own country - sure not independent - but very close to it as they have their own government. However, when they vote by 62% to remain in Europe and end up being taken out of Europe it becomes a big issue to many. Yes we know the UK voted to exit but there are perhaps a million plus Scots who fail to recognize or accept being part of the UK or see themselves Scottish first and foremost and feel how they vote should hold more water than it does in the current union.

Sorry Craig, but that's democracy. Why should somebody in Edinburghs vote count more than someone's in London? Almost as ridiculous as Mhairi Black complaining that a region with more inhabitants had more MPs representing it than another region with less MPs.

But such is the politics of the SNP, always phrasing as Scotland vs the rest of the UK (or more accurately England) when Scotland voted to be part of the UK.
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Post by SecretFly on Tue 14 Nov 2017, 7:39 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Today exemplifies the point I was making the other day. An amendment to the Brexit Bill put forward by the SNP and Plaid Cymru has been categorically knocked back in a vote in Westminster. The Bill would have meant that the final EU exit deal would have to be agreed by all four parliaments before being passed. So much for a union of equal voices eh?

So go ahead then and forecast the likely scenario.  The likelihood is that at least one of those Parliaments wouldn't agree to a final exit deal. Indeed and of course that's what SNP and Plaid Cymru were/are hoping for in any amendment.  So they want to scupper the voices of the majority of the Union? So much for the Union of Equal voices.

Besides, what happens when stalemate would hit  - as it would?  It seems some think that any stick put in the spokes of Brexiteer citizens only leads to a nice and easy transition back to the good old days of everyone ready, willing and able to live in the nice cute EU; - no quibbles, no recriminations, no more counter amendments and bills, no more protests from pro-Brexiteers....

.................And they all lived happily ever after.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 14 Nov 2017, 7:48 pm

Or certain scenario now - hard Brexit vetoed and if any country within this so-called union doesn't like it - tough crap. Westminster knows best but as so often we have seen. It doesn't.

In your scenario is it really so nefarious that parts of this union get a chance to speak for their country?
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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 14 Nov 2017, 8:05 pm

You're purposefully over-simplifying things, Craig. As usual.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 14 Nov 2017, 8:15 pm

Turn the clock back to when Act of Union was signed. What is going on now betrays all it was supposed to be about. Nowadays it is what Westminsters says goes. Is it any wonder so many Scots are disenchanted.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 14 Nov 2017, 9:09 pm

Seeing as the SNP lost a third of its seats in June...The disenchantment isn't just confined to the British Government me thinks..

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 14 Nov 2017, 9:25 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Seeing as the SNP lost a third of its seats in June...The disenchantment isn't just confined to the British Government me thinks..

And polls since show support for SNP rising again.Ten years in power and counting. Certainly doing something right with voters.

But anyway back to this betrayal of the Act of Union. This union was set up on belief that every country in it would have a say in decision making. Total baloney now of course.
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Post by GSC on Tue 14 Nov 2017, 10:03 pm

They do have a say. Every citizen in Scotland has roughly the same say as one in England, Wales or NI. Does it seem right that one vote should count for 10x another based on a geographic and historical border within a union?
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 14 Nov 2017, 10:22 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Seeing as the SNP lost a third of its seats in June...The disenchantment isn't just confined to the British Government me thinks..

And polls since show support for SNP rising again.Ten years in power and counting. Certainly doing something right with voters.

It is strange considering the fall in support for Independence in all the polls.

I will give you that.


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Post by Duty281 on Tue 14 Nov 2017, 11:24 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:But anyway back to this betrayal of the Act of Union. This union was set up on belief that every country in it would have a say in decision making. Total baloney now of course.

The Act of Union was set up to rescue Scotland from the financial mire and boost their trade options, and to keep the English monarchy content.

Not on some happy-clappy belief of equal decision-making (though the original Act of Union, 1707, held that Scotland and England should only be represented by one Parliament).

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Post by Ent on Wed 15 Nov 2017, 7:07 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Today exemplifies the point I was making the other day. An amendment to the Brexit Bill put forward by the SNP and Plaid Cymru has been categorically knocked back in a vote in Westminster. The Bill would have meant that the final EU exit deal would have to be agreed by all four parliaments before being passed. So much for a union of equal voices eh?

This would be called democracy.

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Post by Samo on Wed 15 Nov 2017, 8:09 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Seeing as the SNP lost a third of its seats in June...The disenchantment isn't just confined to the British Government me thinks..

And polls since show support for SNP rising again.Ten years in power and counting. Certainly doing something right with voters.

But anyway back to this betrayal of the Act of Union. This union was set up on belief that every country in it would have a say in decision making. Total baloney now of course.

As a former SNP voter the only thing they did right is not be Labour or the Tories.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 9:02 am

GSC wrote:They do have a say. Every citizen in Scotland has roughly the same say as one in England, Wales or NI. Does it seem right that one vote should count for 10x another based on a geographic and historical border within a union?

Everyone on Earth has the same say as the next person but not every voice has the same monopoly on power. The decisions made in Westminster are Tory or Labour-based and backed. They'll feather their own nests. That will always be the case. They saw this as the power they hold being eroded. Scottish or Welsh parties (on of which forms the Scottish government and biggest party in Scotland) wanting to have a say in Brexit is a perfectly fair request. But hey-ho it just exemplifies how this 'union' has long since run its course.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 9:11 am

Ent wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Today exemplifies the point I was making the other day. An amendment to the Brexit Bill put forward by the SNP and Plaid Cymru has been categorically knocked back in a vote in Westminster. The Bill would have meant that the final EU exit deal would have to be agreed by all four parliaments before being passed. So much for a union of equal voices eh?

This would be called democracy.

Yes it would indeed. Each has their vote on what is best for UK on Brexit but since the lion's share of those votes are made by English MPs voting on their own interests it supercedes what Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish MPs may vote to back. So in other words the vast majority of MPs being English will always have the last word.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 9:13 am

Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:But anyway back to this betrayal of the Act of Union. This union was set up on belief that every country in it would have a say in decision making. Total baloney now of course.

The Act of Union was set up to rescue Scotland from the financial mire and boost their trade options, and to keep the English monarchy content.

Not on some happy-clappy belief of equal decision-making (though the original Act of Union, 1707, held that Scotland and England should only be represented by one Parliament).

Rabbie Burns was an astute man. His thoughts on the Act of Union was:- 'We're bought and sold for English Gold,
Such a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation.'
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Post by LionsV2 on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 10:06 am

If only the Scottish people were given a chance of independence, oh wait they were and decided to stay a part of that union you so readily rubbish, you seem to think your personal views are that of your nation.

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Post by GSC on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 11:13 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:They do have a say. Every citizen in Scotland has roughly the same say as one in England, Wales or NI. Does it seem right that one vote should count for 10x another based on a geographic and historical border within a union?

Everyone on Earth has the same say as the next person but not every voice has the same monopoly on power. The decisions made in Westminster are Tory or Labour-based

They are because those 2 parties tend to get most of the votes across the entire UK.
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Post by superflyweight on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 2:08 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:They do have a say. Every citizen in Scotland has roughly the same say as one in England, Wales or NI. Does it seem right that one vote should count for 10x another based on a geographic and historical border within a union?

Everyone on Earth has the same say as the next person but not every voice has the same monopoly on power. The decisions made in Westminster are Tory or Labour-based and backed. They'll feather their own nests. That will always be the case. They saw this as the power they hold being eroded.  Scottish or Welsh parties (on of which forms the Scottish government and biggest party in Scotland) wanting to have a say in Brexit is a perfectly fair request. But hey-ho it just exemplifies how this 'union' has long since run its course.

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Post by Pr4wn on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 2:10 pm

LionsV2 wrote:If only the Scottish people were given a chance of independence, oh wait they were and decided to stay a part of that union you so readily rubbish, you seem to think your personal views are that of your nation.

Have to agree with this, actually. Scotland had its chance to become its own sovreign nation but it chose to remain part of the UK, where it'll have to play by the rules.

The current situation is no less fair then the Scots holding the rest of the UK to ransom by vetoing any vote.

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Post by GSC on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 2:18 pm

I mean the SNP hold most of the votes in Scotland, should Ruth Davidson be able to veto any decisions the Scottish parliament make Because her constituents didn't vote for the SNP?
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 2:35 pm

superflyweight wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:They do have a say. Every citizen in Scotland has roughly the same say as one in England, Wales or NI. Does it seem right that one vote should count for 10x another based on a geographic and historical border within a union?

Everyone on Earth has the same say as the next person but not every voice has the same monopoly on power. The decisions made in Westminster are Tory or Labour-based and backed. They'll feather their own nests. That will always be the case. They saw this as the power they hold being eroded.  Scottish or Welsh parties (on of which forms the Scottish government and biggest party in Scotland) wanting to have a say in Brexit is a perfectly fair request. But hey-ho it just exemplifies how this 'union' has long since run its course.

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I've heard farmers in Sudan have big influence on Brexit
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Post by GSC on Fri 17 Nov 2017, 2:49 pm

They were displeased Priti had to cancel at short notice
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 11:04 am

GSC wrote:I mean the SNP hold most of the votes in Scotland, should Ruth Davidson be able to veto any decisions the Scottish parliament make Because her constituents didn't vote for the SNP?

We are talking BREXIT here. A bigger majority of Scots voted to remain part of Europe than voted to remain part of the UK percentage-wise. That isn't going to happen (damn there is that over-powering say held by places outwith Scotland again) and Brexit is happening. That is your democracy of the UK. What is more is that Westminster will decide what is best for Scotland even though those that govern at Westminster have not been the largest party in Scotland for three decades.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 11:14 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Seeing as the SNP lost a third of its seats in June...The disenchantment isn't just confined to the British Government me thinks..

And polls since show support for SNP rising again.Ten years in power and counting. Certainly doing something right with voters.

It is strange considering the fall in support for Independence in all the polls.

I will give you that.


Not really a mystery. Scotland is made up of a population that a solid 40% support independence and the only independence-backing party in Scotland is the SNP and it does attract voters not too fussed about independence either way but are totally disenchanted with Tories and Labour and are happy with what the SNP are doing. The unionist parties (Scottish Conservative and Scottish Labour) will largely attract those who prefer to stay in the union but there are a fair number of Labour voters that I know of that do fancy a crack at independence. Hence you have a make up of SNP of around 45 to 50% of the electorate, Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative around 23% each of electorate and Scottish LibDems and Greens making up the rest.
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Post by GSC on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 12:15 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:I mean the SNP hold most of the votes in Scotland, should Ruth Davidson be able to veto any decisions the Scottish parliament make Because her constituents didn't vote for the SNP?

We are talking BREXIT here. A bigger majority of Scots voted to remain part of Europe than voted to remain part of the UK percentage-wise. That isn't going to happen (damn there is that over-powering say held by places outwith Scotland again) and Brexit is happening. That is your democracy of the UK. What is more is that Westminster will decide what is best for Scotland even though those that govern at Westminster have not been the largest party in Scotland for three decades.

Yeah because Brexit was a UK wide vote. Not 4 separate polls.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 12:49 pm

GSC wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:I mean the SNP hold most of the votes in Scotland, should Ruth Davidson be able to veto any decisions the Scottish parliament make Because her constituents didn't vote for the SNP?

We are talking BREXIT here. A bigger majority of Scots voted to remain part of Europe than voted to remain part of the UK percentage-wise. That isn't going to happen (damn there is that over-powering say held by places outwith Scotland again) and Brexit is happening. That is your democracy of the UK. What is more is that Westminster will decide what is best for Scotland even though those that govern at Westminster have not been the largest party in Scotland for three decades.

Yeah because Brexit was a UK wide vote. Not 4 separate polls.

Which is basically what England votes for they get due to the fact they have lion's share of the votes. In short they say what goes. All four countries that make up the UK have their own parliaments and two of those countries voted against Brexit. That is not the issue for me as I am ambivalent about Brexit. My issue is the fact that Westminster has a total disregard for those that should have their say on any final deals. Brexit will affect everyone and why on Earth should I believe a government that has been a minority in Scotland for three decades will know what is best for Scotland.
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Post by LionsV2 on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 2:41 pm

It's not about Scotland is it, don't understand why you're failing to understand how democracy works. The UK is the country.

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Post by Hero on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 2:44 pm

London has a bigger population than Scotland and Wales combined. The majority of London voted to remain. Shall that also get the option to stay in? No, because it's part of the UK.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 2:52 pm

Hero wrote:London has a bigger population than Scotland and Wales combined. The majority of London voted to remain. Shall that also get the option to stay in? No, because it's part of the UK.

Yes I know that but this is the reason why independence has support of upwards of a million people in Scotland and that will not diminish. Those are people that are interested in what is the best for Scotland first and foremost and when they see things like the way Brexit is being forced through by Westminster alone it further fuels the flame of discontent in Scotland.
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Post by Samo on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 2:57 pm

This is why I dont agree with Devolution at a parliamentary level, we should be all in or all out.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 2:58 pm

LionsV2 wrote:It's not about Scotland is it, don't understand why you're failing to understand how democracy works. The UK is the country.

And you don't understand how so many in Scotland now think. They don't support what the UK now stands for or the democracy it claims to bring for them. Yes the UK is the country if you are of a unionist persuasion but if you are actively supporting independence then your interest is in getting what is the best for Scotland. So in short yes you are totally correct the UK is the country as things stand but what you need to understand is that there are over a million people in Scotland alone whose only interest is in Scotland.
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Post by LionsV2 on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 2:59 pm

I'm still amazed that Scotland voted against Independence consider the picture you paint. Could it be those that voted to remain part of the union are those who know what is best for Scotland? I think they are, time to get over it Craig or maybe carry on bitter.

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Post by Hero on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:02 pm

But as I say London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds etc all voted to remain. All the main hubs of population and industry in England (barring Birmingham) wanted to stay but those cities have to abide by the results of the election as much as you do.
And how are you to say that only those for Independence are those that are interested in what's best for Scotland. I'm sure many a proud Scotsman (and Scotswoman) voted to remain in the UK as they could see the bigger picture. I'm proud of being British but also wanted to remain in the EU, that doesn't mean I'm any less interested in what's best for Britain.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:04 pm

LionsV2 wrote:I'm still amazed that Scotland voted against Independence consider the picture you paint. Could it be those that voted to remain part of the union are those who know what is best for Scotland?  I think they are, time to get over it Craig or maybe carry on bitter.

There are many reasons why Scotland voted against independence - well-documented across the internet. False promises won people over in Better Together campaign, Gordon Brown's totally wrong last ditch attempt to turn the vote into a Devo-Max issue and those that cling to the union like a comfort blanket. As for being bitter? No as I realize this issue is not over by a long shot and won't be either whilst such a large chunk of the population of Scotland crave independence.
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Post by Hero on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:07 pm

But there's a growing larger chunk that don't want independence. Currently 50% want to remain and only 39% want out.

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Post by LionsV2 on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:08 pm

That large chunk being a minority of the electorate, let's just keep having votes until that minority get their own way.

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Post by Hero on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:11 pm

I wake up every morning and wish Brexit wasn't a thing, but it was, we voted out and unfortunately it's happening. Sometimes things don't go the way you want and all the stamping of your feet until you make yourself sick won't make a difference.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:14 pm

Hero wrote:But as I say London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds etc all voted to remain. All the main hubs of population and industry in England (barring Birmingham) wanted to stay but those cities have to abide by the results of the election as much as you do.
And how are you to say that only those for Independence are those that are interested in what's best for Scotland. I'm sure many a proud Scotsman (and Scotswoman) voted to remain in the UK as they could see the bigger picture. I'm proud of being British but also wanted to remain in the EU, that doesn't mean I'm any less interested in what's best for Britain.

I was/am ambivalent about Brexit. I see reasons for it and reasons against it. My point on this is the blatant move by Westminster to block the rest of the countries governments to have any say on the final deals when they are agreed regardless to how they affect Scotland or the other countries. And remember this is a government rankled with blatant incompetence and yet they are telling the rest of the UK they know best. I say that those who back independence logically are looking after what is best for Scotland and Scotland alone. Unionists vision is about what is best for the UK and quite often that is not what is best for Scotland.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:18 pm

LionsV2 wrote:That large chunk being a minority of the electorate, let's just keep having votes until that minority get their own way.

It is a large chunk of the electorate in Scotland. Like I said it is a large enough chunk for independence to be an on-going issue and will continue to be. Brexit is happening and a Tory government clings to power at Westminster for the time being but the call for independence isn't going anywhere anytrime soon.
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Post by LionsV2 on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:18 pm

Sorry that's utter nonsense and has no justification whatsoever, you can say it as many times as you want but doesn't make it true.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:23 pm

LionsV2 wrote:Sorry that's utter nonsense and has no justification whatsoever, you can say it as many times as you want but doesn't make it true.

You can stick your head in the sand all you want but as I said whilst the support for independence stands at over one million people it is not an issue that is going away.
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Post by Hero on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:26 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
LionsV2 wrote:Sorry that's utter nonsense and has no justification whatsoever, you can say it as many times as you want but doesn't make it true.

You can stick your head in the sand all you want but as I said whilst the support for independence stands at over one million people it is not an issue that is going away.
16m voted to remain in the EU, that issue is going away.

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Post by LionsV2 on Sat 18 Nov 2017, 3:33 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
LionsV2 wrote:Sorry that's utter nonsense and has no justification whatsoever, you can say it as many times as you want but doesn't make it true.

You can stick your head in the sand all you want but as I said whilst the support for independence stands at over one million people it is not an issue that is going away.

Keep dreaming then Craig because it's an issue that Westminster simply don't care about any more so yes it is going away.

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Post by Steffan on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 5:24 am

March 2019. When my little country of Wales starts to makes it's full transformation into a third world country. How exciting

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Post by Pal Joey on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 9:37 am

Steffan wrote:March 2019. When my little country of Wales starts to makes it's full transformation into a third world country. How exciting

You'll still be a 1st tier rugby nation though... so it's not all doom and gloom.
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Post by Duty281 on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 3:25 pm

Steffan wrote:March 2019. When my little country of Wales starts to makes it's full transformation into a third world country. How exciting

Ah yes, because every country outside the EU, like Iceland and Switzerland, are poor, impoverished nations aren't they?

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Post by Steffan on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 3:56 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Steffan wrote:March 2019. When my little country of Wales starts to makes it's full transformation into a third world country. How exciting

Ah yes, because every country outside the EU, like Iceland and Switzerland, are poor, impoverished nations aren't they?
Yes...but they already have an economic model in place outside the EU and Wales doesn't. Hence we export a lot to the EU and receive EU funding. Basically...Wales being in the EU works. Also...we exist as part of the UK...and like hell are the Tories going to improve things in Wales or any other area in the UK that isn't particularly affluent (unless it's Northern Ireland where you have to pacify the gang of militant psychopaths you teamed up with)

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 4:12 pm

Steffan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Steffan wrote:March 2019. When my little country of Wales starts to makes it's full transformation into a third world country. How exciting

Ah yes, because every country outside the EU, like Iceland and Switzerland, are poor, impoverished nations aren't they?
Yes...but they already have an economic model in place outside the EU and Wales doesn't. Hence we export a lot to the EU and receive EU funding.

And Wales will continue to export its goods to the EU.

The recycled UK money that Wales currently gets, mistakenly called 'EU funding', is something that all political parties in Wales (Tories, Labour, Plaid, UKIP, LDs) have pledged to replace to ensure its continuity.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 5:59 pm

Hero wrote:But as I say London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds etc all voted to remain. All the main hubs of population and industry in England (barring Birmingham) wanted to stay but those cities have to abide by the results of the election as much as you do.
And how are you to say that only those for Independence are those that are interested in what's best for Scotland. I'm sure many a proud Scotsman (and Scotswoman) voted to remain in the UK as they could see the bigger picture. I'm proud of being British but also wanted to remain in the EU, that doesn't mean I'm any less interested in what's best for Britain.
Forget it Hero, he ain't listening...
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Post by navyblueshorts on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 6:02 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
LionsV2 wrote:That large chunk being a minority of the electorate, let's just keep having votes until that minority get their own way.

It is a large chunk of the electorate in Scotland. Like I said it is a large enough chunk for independence to be an on-going issue and will continue to be. Brexit is happening and a Tory government clings to power at Westminster for the time being but the call for independence isn't going anywhere anytrime soon.
Who gives a 4X? It was and is a minority. Live with it.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Sun 19 Nov 2017, 6:04 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Steffan wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Steffan wrote:March 2019. When my little country of Wales starts to makes it's full transformation into a third world country. How exciting

Ah yes, because every country outside the EU, like Iceland and Switzerland, are poor, impoverished nations aren't they?
Yes...but they already have an economic model in place outside the EU and Wales doesn't. Hence we export a lot to the EU and receive EU funding.

And Wales will continue to export its goods to the EU.

The recycled UK money that Wales currently gets, mistakenly called 'EU funding', is something that all political parties in Wales (Tories, Labour, Plaid, UKIP, LDs) have pledged to replace to ensure its continuity.
Nice sales pitch. We'll see how it pans out...
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