England JWC Campaign

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England JWC Campaign

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 24 Apr 2017, 3:27 pm

First topic message reminder :

Squad

Forwards

Ralph Adams-Hale (Saracens) - Prop
Josh Bayliss (Bath Rugby) - Back Row
Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons) - Hooker
Josh Caulfield (Exeter Chiefs) - Lock/Back Row
Justin Clegg (Worcester Warriors) - Lock
Max Davies (Newcastle Falcons) - Lock
Ollie Dawe (Bristol Rugby) - Prop
Ben Earl (Saracens) - Back Row
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers) - Back Row
Ciaran Knight (Gloucester Rugby) - Prop
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) - Back Row
Joe Mullis (Gloucester Rugby) - Hooker
Jack Nay (Saracens) - Back Row
Alex Seville (Gloucester Rugby) - Prop
Marcus Street (Exeter Chiefs) - Prop
Henry Walker (Gloucester Rugby) - Hooker

Backs
Sam Aspland-Robinson (Harlequins) - Wing
Theo Brophy Clews (London Irish) - Fly Half
Will Butler (Worcester Warriors) - Centre
Ali Crossdale (Saracens) - Wing/Full Back
Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins) - Wing
Max Malins (Saracens) - Full Back
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints) - Scrum Half
Dominic Morris (Saracens) - Centre
Tom Parton (London Irish) - Full Back
Harry Randall (Gloucester Rugby) - Scrum Half
Jacob Umaga (Wasps) - Fly Half/Centre
Max Wright (Yorkshire Carnegie) - Centre



Fixtures (all live on ITV)

England v Samoa: Wednesday 31 May – Avchala Stadium (10am KO BST)
England v Wales: Sunday 4 June - Avchala Stadium (5pm KO BST)
England v Australia: Thursday 8 June -  Avchala Stadium (5pm KO BST)
Semi-finals and knock-out matches (Tuesday 13 June) Details TBC
Final and knock-out matches (Sunday 18 June) Details TBC

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 4:47 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Out of curiosity have England ever played a smaller ball playing 8?

I can't think of any....Billy,  Morgan,  Dallaglio,  Rodber,  Deano, ...Ripley etc.

Thomas the Tank Waldron?

Who was that Gloucester lad that got a few caps then spent the rest of his life injured?

Tom Wood.......................... Run

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by lostinwales on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 4:59 pm

Forrester?

I do think that Mercer does have one extra thing that marks him out more than Clifford, and thats the leadership/captaincy thing. Watching the U20's he's always talking to the rest of the team. Never shuts up.

And don't forget he does have the right background to being a future England Captain - given that his dad is a New Zealander...

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 7:21 pm

Wpi

I wouldn't say Waldrom was a smaller ball playing 8. He's called the tank for a reason.

And as to the captaincy... Clifford captained the u20s didn't he?

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Poorfour on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:18 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wpi

I wouldn't say Waldrom was a smaller ball playing 8. He's called the tank for a reason.  

And as to the captaincy... Clifford captained the u20s didn't he?

To England's first JRWC win, no less. And the performance he put in to pull back a two try deficit in the second half was one of the best individual rugby performances I've ever seen.

Conor O'Shea's prediction in 2015 was that if Clifford "stays fit he will play for England. If he says fit he will captain England."

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:24 pm

Poor four,

I hope this operation sorts him out and he really charges on next season. He should be involved in games like that we just watched in Argentina...

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Cumbrian on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:47 pm

Mercer is 16 Stone at 19 years old. I reckon he will reasonably expect to naturally put another stone and 1/2 in bulk over the next few years making his around 17.5St, which is fair for a back-row. I have made the comparison with Alex Gray, but the difference is Mercer is getting regular game time. I know he doesn't have the bulk of Hughes /Billy, bit he is more of a Parisse type player IMO, reckon he won't suffer for offering something different.
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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by DaveM on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:51 pm

Mercer looks prerty big to me already, and he seems to enjoy contact. I think he's gor way more to him than Gray had. I reckon he will go on to become ENGLAND'S regular blindside.

Clifford is a good player, but I don't see where he fits into the senior side.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:03 pm

Don't forget Dallaglio was 6'5 but wasn't huge built and played openside at times and was In the world cup winning 7's side 20 year ago with Rodber etc, yet he filled out to be a monster!

Dave, I know what you mean about fitting Clifford jn, but if get can be in full fitness he could be some player.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:03 pm

How tall is mercer?

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by lostinwales on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:06 pm

I think Mercer has a very great deal going for him. We are going to have an issue with balance though. We work so much better with a heavy duty ball carrier or two to make space for the rest of the guys to do their thing.

If Mercer goes to 6 is he going to do all the hard 'unseen' grunt that Robshaw does (or Mark Wilson is showing he can do). If he goes to 8 do we need to find our version of Stander to make the hard yards? Or do we end up on relying on Genge, Sinkler, or Mako to do that job?

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Cyril on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:07 pm

Mercer is about 6.3 or 6.4

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by DaveM on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:12 pm

The trouble is Clifford isn't a 6 and we have better players at 8 and better prospects at 7. I think if Clifford has come through around 2010 he would have picked up a load of caps. It looks tricky for him now though.

England have lots of carriers now I would say. Also I think Mercer can do the grungy stuff. Nobody is going to take the 8 shirt off Vunipola - even the improving Hughes is still well behind

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:17 pm

Hughes is nowhere near Billy. He did OK tonight but I wasn't massively impressed. 6 and 7 impressed me more.

I tend to agree again about Clifford. But I guess we shall see. Maye our own Calum Chick will fall in to the same category. They need to focus on being top club players.

As to the make up of the grafters in the pack. I think tonight has shown that Eddie is well in control of what's going on and is taking us forward nicely.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by DaveM on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:27 pm

I think Jones can't believe his luck - he has good players coming out of his ears, players with real mental toughness as well as fantastic skills. He is using his luck well mind you.

I think by 2019 we will be right up with the All Blacks.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:32 pm

He must be laughing....

Ford or Farrell at 10 lol and potentially Mallins coming through!
And he has choices all over the park!

But fortunately he seems to have his core stable unit established and he's looking at the rest, and maybe updating a few of the core.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by DaveM on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:41 pm

Yeah, I think Mallins has the potential to be better than both Ford and Farrell.

I remember when I started posting on the old 606 around 2009 I think. Back then you could see the academies were starting to produce better players, but the senior side was really struggling to find players who looked good enough. That seems a very, very long time ago.

And this u20s side is missing 6 players I think would be first choice (and actually I think that will catch up with them).

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 10 Jun 2017, 11:56 pm

And I was against Eddie Jones being our manager ha ha

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by DaveM on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:04 am

Actually I think we are now missing 8 first choice players - Isiekwe, both Currys, Maunder, Morris, Crossdale, Cokanasiga, Aspland-Robinson.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:07 am

That's quite a few!


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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by DaveM on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 12:13 am

No doubt in my mind that this year's u20 cohort is the best England have ever produced. But the team at the JWC is a shadow of the side we could have put out. That, and the ridiculous lineout will probably stop us defending the title. Still, so many good players to feed into an already strong senior squad over the next few years.....

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by lostinwales on Sun 11 Jun 2017, 2:26 am

Yeah its the basic skills thing which wasn't good but you end up just accepting. Then you see guys like Haley vs the Barbarians and he can do everything. Then you look at the kids and they also can do everything.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by DaveM on Mon 12 Jun 2017, 9:19 pm

The team is up for the semi:

England U20 team to face South Africa:

15. Tom Parton (London Irish)
14. Darren Atkins (Bath Rugby)
13. Will Butler (Worcester Warriors)
12. Theo Brophy Clews (London Irish)
11. Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins)
10. Max Malins (Saracens)
9. Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints)
1. Ralph Adams-Hale (Saracens)
2. Joe Mullis (Gloucester Rugby)
3. Marcus Street (Exeter Chiefs)
4. Josh Caulfield (Exeter Chiefs)
5. Justin Clegg (Worcester Warriors)
6. Dino Lamb (Harlequins)
7. Ben Earl (Saracens)
8. Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) captain

Replacements:

16. Henry Walker (Gloucester Rugby)
17. Ollie Dawe (Bristol Rugby)
18. Ciaran Knight (Gloucester Rugby)
19. Max Davies (Newcastle Falcons)
20. Josh Bayliss (Bath Rugby)
21. Harry Randall (Gloucester Rugby)
22. Jacob Umaga (Wasps)
23. Paolo Odogwu (Sale Sharks)

We've lost Wright from the squad as well, so that is now 9 unavailable players and we are starting with two FHs and a IC. Potentially controversial selection at SH. I don't know much about Lamb or Atkins.

We will do well to get through this.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by BamBam on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 10:44 am

Atkins is a FB i think .. SA have got 3 playmaker/kicker types in their backline so may be to counter that

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 2:57 pm

Just starting on itv4

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:03 pm

Wow bright start Mercer in under posts. 7-0 after 3 mins

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by BamBam on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:04 pm

Great from Brophy-Clews

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by BamBam on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:14 pm

7-7 after their big number 8 crashes over following a nice break out wide

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:17 pm

Malins is a class act. Great feet & awareness there 14-7

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by BamBam on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:17 pm

Made that look easy

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 3:50 pm

Scrum under pressure & Brophy Clews injured.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Cyril on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:38 pm

Mercer is feckin' amazing!

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Cyril on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:46 pm

Only saw the last half an hour, but that looked a bit nervy!

SA 10 was like a rabbit in headlights.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:46 pm

With that abysmal set-piece platform, how the heck did we win the game?

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Cyril on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:52 pm

LondonTiger wrote:With that abysmal set-piece platform, how the heck did we win the game?
Indeed. I counted about 5 lost line-outs in the bit I saw. The scrum was going back most of the time too.

Good grit from England though.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 4:53 pm

Very close just about deserved. Good job we had Mercer!

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 5:00 pm

This year is the last-minute kick campaign.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Taylorman on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 5:18 pm

Well done England, hoping for a NZ final from the next game, should be great, some big boys on both those sides...under 20? Whew, the SA no. 8 looked about 25!

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Cumbrian on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 6:00 pm

Didn't see the game (was at work), but it sounds like we were quite lucky?
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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 6:09 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Didn't see the game (was at work),  but it sounds like we were quite lucky?

Not sure lucky is right. We were very threatening ball in hand, and created a lot of chances. Our scrum and lineout was poor.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Hood83 on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 7:24 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Didn't see the game (was at work),  but it sounds like we were quite lucky?

Not sure lucky is right. We were very threatening ball in hand, and created a lot of chances. Our scrum and lineout was poor.

Wouldn't it be nice to make advancements in ball skills and technique AND retain our traditional strengths?! I suppose I can't complain, I'd always expect our set piece to improve through to the national side.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by TrailApe on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 8:26 pm

AND retain our traditional strengths

The U20's team has got a good pack - but they are missing quite a few through injury and senior call up.

Don't worry, there's white orcs on the conveyor belt.
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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Poorfour on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 10:42 pm

Hood83 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Didn't see the game (was at work),  but it sounds like we were quite lucky?

Not sure lucky is right. We were very threatening ball in hand, and created a lot of chances. Our scrum and lineout was poor.

Wouldn't it be nice to make advancements in ball skills and technique AND retain our traditional strengths?! I suppose I can't complain, I'd always expect our set piece to improve through to the national side.

Bear in mind that quite a few of the U20 forwards are in Argentina rather than Georgia. One of the JRWC props is still eligible for U18.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Fernando on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 11:18 pm




Fernando
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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Cyril on Tue 13 Jun 2017, 11:26 pm

Fernando wrote:

Not bad. Mercer would have stopped that at each phase though and scored on the counter Wink

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by ebop on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:37 am

Looking forward to this match up. It looks like the NZ U20s have brought a team that can handle the set-piece much better than previous years whilst not sacrificing enterprise. Also quite a nice parallel with the situation at senior level with ABs and England being 1 and 2.

ps. If anyone saw the U20s NZ v France game, what did you think about the French No. 7 karate chop kicking our player in the left knee in the maul? Good to see French thuggery is taught at a young age.
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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Exiledinborders on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 7:35 am

ebop wrote:Looking forward to this match up. It looks like the NZ U20s have brought a team that can handle the set-piece much better than previous years whilst not sacrificing enterprise. Also quite a nice parallel with the situation at senior level with ABs and England being 1 and 2.
As for ABs and England being 1 and 2, the record over the last few years shows that the position are reversed from what you fondly imagine. This is England's fifth successive final whilst NZ's performance has been pretty up and down.
Eng  NZ
2017 FinalistFinalist
20161st5th
20152nd1st
20141st3rd
20131st4th
I see no reason to think this has changed although I expect NZ to win the final fairly evenly as this year's England team has been so denuded by the best players touring in Argentina. It is a strength of England U20s that many can now tour against a Rugby Championship nation's senior team and show up well.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by ebop on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 8:18 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
ebop wrote:Looking forward to this match up. It looks like the NZ U20s have brought a team that can handle the set-piece much better than previous years whilst not sacrificing enterprise. Also quite a nice parallel with the situation at senior level with ABs and England being 1 and 2.
As for ABs and England being 1 and 2, the record over the last few years shows that the position are reversed from what you fondly imagine. This is England's fifth successive final whilst NZ's performance has been pretty up and down.
Eng  NZ
2017 FinalistFinalist
20161st5th
20152nd1st
20141st3rd
20131st4th
I see no reason to think this has changed although I expect NZ to win the final fairly evenly as this year's England team has been so denuded by the best players touring in Argentina. It is a strength of England U20s that many can now tour against a Rugby Championship nation's senior team and show up well.

I was taking about ABs and England at the senior level being 1 and 2 respectively and the same teams fighting it out at the U20s level for 1 and 2. I am well aware of England's dominance at the U20s in recent times. Aren't most in professional outfits? Well drilled at set-piece which seems to be a major difference. A couple of NZ U20s players are also not there (Barrett, Perofeta)
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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Margin_Walker on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 8:23 am

England's set piece has been pretty poor the last few years. Scrum and lineout haven't functioned this JWC and the lineout was definitely an issue last year as well. Certainly not what's been getting them over the line at U20s recently. England have probably over-performed this year given the players available and would be surprised if they made too much of an impression against NZ

Most of the players (probably all) are in Prem senior academies which provides a pretty good pathway.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Taylorman on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 8:26 am

ebop wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
ebop wrote:Looking forward to this match up. It looks like the NZ U20s have brought a team that can handle the set-piece much better than previous years whilst not sacrificing enterprise. Also quite a nice parallel with the situation at senior level with ABs and England being 1 and 2.
As for ABs and England being 1 and 2, the record over the last few years shows that the position are reversed from what you fondly imagine. This is England's fifth successive final whilst NZ's performance has been pretty up and down.
Eng  NZ
2017 FinalistFinalist
20161st5th
20152nd1st
20141st3rd
20131st4th
I see no reason to think this has changed although I expect NZ to win the final fairly evenly as this year's England team has been so denuded by the best players touring in Argentina. It is a strength of England U20s that many can now tour against a Rugby Championship nation's senior team and show up well.

I was taking about ABs and England at the senior level being 1 and 2 respectively and the same teams fighting it out at the U20s level for 1 and 2. I am well aware of England's dominance at the U20s in recent times. Aren't most in professional outfits? Well drilled at set-piece which seems to be a major difference. A couple of NZ U20s players are also not there (Barrett, Perofeta)

Thought both teams were impressive and really looking forward to the final. If England have a bunch out with Argentina then that's some serious depth. I like the crazy hooker for the NZ side, the 10 as well, forgotten their names at the mo.

Can't pick it but given the absences gotta go us

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 8:38 am

England have five eligible players in Argentina, 3 of whom were capped on Saturday.

Add in a handful of players who were unavailable for selection due to injury, then the players who have had to drop out since th einitial squad was named and we are about 15 players short across the squad (that does of course include duplicates in some positions rather than a full side)

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Re: England JWC Campaign

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