England JWC Campaign

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England JWC Campaign

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 24 Apr 2017, 3:27 pm

First topic message reminder :

Squad

Forwards

Ralph Adams-Hale (Saracens) - Prop
Josh Bayliss (Bath Rugby) - Back Row
Jamie Blamire (Newcastle Falcons) - Hooker
Josh Caulfield (Exeter Chiefs) - Lock/Back Row
Justin Clegg (Worcester Warriors) - Lock
Max Davies (Newcastle Falcons) - Lock
Ollie Dawe (Bristol Rugby) - Prop
Ben Earl (Saracens) - Back Row
Will Evans (Leicester Tigers) - Back Row
Ciaran Knight (Gloucester Rugby) - Prop
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) - Back Row
Joe Mullis (Gloucester Rugby) - Hooker
Jack Nay (Saracens) - Back Row
Alex Seville (Gloucester Rugby) - Prop
Marcus Street (Exeter Chiefs) - Prop
Henry Walker (Gloucester Rugby) - Hooker

Backs
Sam Aspland-Robinson (Harlequins) - Wing
Theo Brophy Clews (London Irish) - Fly Half
Will Butler (Worcester Warriors) - Centre
Ali Crossdale (Saracens) - Wing/Full Back
Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins) - Wing
Max Malins (Saracens) - Full Back
Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints) - Scrum Half
Dominic Morris (Saracens) - Centre
Tom Parton (London Irish) - Full Back
Harry Randall (Gloucester Rugby) - Scrum Half
Jacob Umaga (Wasps) - Fly Half/Centre
Max Wright (Yorkshire Carnegie) - Centre



Fixtures (all live on ITV)

England v Samoa: Wednesday 31 May – Avchala Stadium (10am KO BST)
England v Wales: Sunday 4 June - Avchala Stadium (5pm KO BST)
England v Australia: Thursday 8 June -  Avchala Stadium (5pm KO BST)
Semi-finals and knock-out matches (Tuesday 13 June) Details TBC
Final and knock-out matches (Sunday 18 June) Details TBC

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Welly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:06 pm

After this JWC i'm not as upset over Umaga going to wasps as i was, if i'm being honest.

Really outside a handful of players it's a pretty average England squad.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 4:53 pm

Of the guys who have featured I have liked the look of Mercer, Randall, Malins and Aspland-Robinson.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Exiledinborders on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 5:22 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Of the guys who have featured I have liked the look of Mercer, Randall, Malins and Aspland-Robinson.
Ibitoye looks very good. A real finisher and works hard.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 8:56 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Of the guys who have featured I have liked the look of Mercer, Randall, Malins and Aspland-Robinson.
Ibitoye looks very good. A real finisher and works hard.

I almost mentioned him, but he disappointed me yesterday with some naive finishing.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Poorfour on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 10:52 pm

By the way, Brophy-Clews is out for a couple of months. Shame, because he was playing with some nice little touches.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Hood83 on Thu 15 Jun 2017, 11:37 am

Welly wrote:  After this JWC i'm not as upset over Umaga going to wasps as i was, if i'm being honest.

Really outside a handful of players it's a pretty average England squad.

I though this. Amazed they've made the final, I suspect it may be a bit lopsided against what looks like a very good AB side. Most surprising for me is how much bigger the other teams look, not just in the backs but the packs as well. SA, Wales, NZ, Aus, France - all looked much, much bigger. It's as small a looking England U20s as I can remember.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by lostinwales on Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:35 pm

Hood83 wrote:
Welly wrote:  After this JWC i'm not as upset over Umaga going to wasps as i was, if i'm being honest.

Really outside a handful of players it's a pretty average England squad.

I though this. Amazed they've made the final, I suspect it may be a bit lopsided against what looks like a very good AB side. Most surprising for me is how much bigger the other teams look, not just in the backs but the packs as well. SA, Wales, NZ, Aus, France - all looked much, much bigger. It's as small a looking England U20s as I can remember.

Its strange considering our traditional reputation at this level, having oversized teenagers that have spent enough time in the academies to develop some real muscle.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 15 Jun 2017, 12:46 pm

Looking at the semi lineup:

Seville* - 103kg
Mullis - 91kg
Street** - n/a
Caulfield - 111kg, 6ft4
Clegg - 97kg
Lamb-Cona* - 108kg
Earl - 102kg
Mercer - 102kg

Both props underage, and all in all entire pack quite light, even for U20s

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by DaveM on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 1:04 am

I'm not really sure how England have reached the final, but I think it is the finest achievement of any England u20 side. This is because:

- They have had absolutely no quality set piece ball at-all. I normally have a rule of thumb that says you can't win if you get well beaten in the line out, but this is the worst line-out I've ever seen from an England side (and that is saying something, as the line-out has been generally poor for years) - it is basically completely useless. The scrum has also been under pressure pretty consistently, and I can't remember seeing a dominant England scrum at any level for quite a while now. I think Dean Ryan may need to give some thought to how to improve the age-group set piece, as England have got to the final based purely on footballing skills, defence and a huge will to win. England u20 sides are generally pretty small now (with an increasing willingness it appears to pick relatively young players based on skills rather than size - at one point I thought we might take a 17 year-old lock to the WC), and that might be part of the set piece problem.
- With the loss of TBC we are now 12 players down I think (I had forgotten Shillcock and Evans), through a combination of call-ups and injuries. Despite the appalling set piece this cohort is the best England have ever produced, but I just think we have lost too many players for the group to claim the title they probably deserve.

It sounds like this NZ side is good, and I don't think a severely weakened England side, with a barely functioning set-piece is going to be able to pull this one out of the bag. Still, to have got to the final, and to have beaten Australia and South Africa is still a fine effort under the circumstances.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Poorfour on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 6:44 am

Well said, Dave. I hope they are able to appreciate what they've achieved.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Poorfour on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 12:32 pm

Does anyone know if the final is actually on TV? I thought ITV were screening it but their website denies all existence and Sky shows them as having a rerun of Rosemary and Thyme.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 12:36 pm

Itv4 2.30pm Poorfour

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Hood83 on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 1:10 pm

DaveM wrote:I'm not really sure how England have reached the final, but I think it is the finest achievement of any England u20 side. This is because:

- They have had absolutely no quality set piece ball at-all. I normally have a rule of thumb that says you can't win if you get well beaten in the line out, but this is the worst line-out I've ever seen from an England side (and that is saying something, as the line-out has been generally poor for years) - it is basically completely useless. The scrum has also been under pressure pretty consistently, and I can't remember seeing a dominant England scrum at any level for quite a while now. I think Dean Ryan may need to give some thought to how to improve the age-group set piece, as England have got to the final based purely on footballing skills, defence and a huge will to win. England u20 sides are generally pretty small now (with an increasing willingness it appears to pick relatively young players based on skills rather than size - at one point I thought we might take a 17 year-old lock to the WC), and that might be part of the set piece problem.
- With the loss of TBC we are now 12 players down I think (I had forgotten Shillcock and Evans), through a combination of call-ups and injuries. Despite the appalling set piece this cohort is the best England have ever produced, but I just think we have lost too many players for the group to claim the title they probably deserve.

It sounds like this NZ side is good, and I don't think a severely weakened England side, with a barely functioning set-piece is going to be able to pull this one out of the bag. Still, to have got to the final, and to have beaten Australia and South Africa is still a fine effort under the circumstances.    

I wonder if we'll be a victim of our own success to some degree. It feels like more players are being pushed through to senior rugby at an early age, which should be seen as a plus. But it's shame if it means they don't get to play in this sort of knock-out environment. Also a shame if combinations that could be nurtured over a long period are not. Again, I suppose the flip side to that is we'll get to see more players exposed to a decent level of rugby and hopefully allow late bloomers to stay in the game.

My other worry is that the team coached by...was it Nick Walshe? I thought was consistently excellent at everything, including the set piece. I hope we've not taken a step back in terms of coaching at this level.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by yappysnap on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 1:30 pm

Who are the coaches at this level now?

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Exiledinborders on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 4:15 pm

Hood83 wrote:
DaveM wrote:I'm not really sure how England have reached the final, but I think it is the finest achievement of any England u20 side. This is because:

- They have had absolutely no quality set piece ball at-all. I normally have a rule of thumb that says you can't win if you get well beaten in the line out, but this is the worst line-out I've ever seen from an England side (and that is saying something, as the line-out has been generally poor for years) - it is basically completely useless. The scrum has also been under pressure pretty consistently, and I can't remember seeing a dominant England scrum at any level for quite a while now. I think Dean Ryan may need to give some thought to how to improve the age-group set piece, as England have got to the final based purely on footballing skills, defence and a huge will to win. England u20 sides are generally pretty small now (with an increasing willingness it appears to pick relatively young players based on skills rather than size - at one point I thought we might take a 17 year-old lock to the WC), and that might be part of the set piece problem.
- With the loss of TBC we are now 12 players down I think (I had forgotten Shillcock and Evans), through a combination of call-ups and injuries. Despite the appalling set piece this cohort is the best England have ever produced, but I just think we have lost too many players for the group to claim the title they probably deserve.

It sounds like this NZ side is good, and I don't think a severely weakened England side, with a barely functioning set-piece is going to be able to pull this one out of the bag. Still, to have got to the final, and to have beaten Australia and South Africa is still a fine effort under the circumstances.    

I wonder if we'll be a victim of our own success to some degree. It feels like more players are being pushed through to senior rugby at an early age, which should be seen as a plus. But it's shame if it means they don't get to play in this sort of knock-out environment. Also a shame if combinations that could be nurtured over a long period are not. Again, I suppose the flip side to that is we'll get to see more players exposed to a decent level of rugby and hopefully allow late bloomers to stay in the game.

My other worry is that the team coached by...was it Nick Walshe? I thought was consistently excellent at everything, including the set piece. I hope we've not taken a step back in terms of coaching at this level.
The U20s who are with the senior team are only their because of the Lions and an abnormal number of injuries. I certainly hope that in future young players get the opportunity of playing in the U20 World Cup.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Poorfour on Sat 17 Jun 2017, 4:42 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Itv4 2.30pm Poorfour

Thanks. I was misreading the date and time. Found it now.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Exiledinborders on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 3:10 pm

What is the point of having a TMO if they are blind?

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by robbo277 on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 3:14 pm

Couple of odd decisions.

Even if it wasn't a knock on, you cant pick and go without the ball and take out the guard, especially if the next player picks up and dives through the vacant guard region.

Secondly, after the 10s break and knock on in the 22, a baby black hacked the ball out so we didn't get advantage. Surely that is an advantage as we get a 22, instead of a scrum within our 22? Never managed to clear from there.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by robbo277 on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 3:19 pm

Saying that, our scrum being marmalised has led to both tries.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by king_carlos on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 3:45 pm

England can feel very aggrieved not to get a penalty from that maul. Very obvious in at the side.

That said the top NZ players here are a huge step up in physicality on their opposite numbers.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by king_carlos on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 3:53 pm

Aumua is one hell of a player.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Scottrf on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 4:33 pm

We look knackered.
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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by king_carlos on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 4:35 pm

Mercer is putting in an excellent shift but the strain of missing their most physical forwards is showing even for the skipper.

Aumua is the most impressive player I've seen at u20 level.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Taylorman on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 4:35 pm

king_carlos wrote:Aumua is one hell of a player.

Yes hat trick in the final, awesome third try. Gotta be player of the tournament. 50-12 with 17 mins to go.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Scottrf on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 4:37 pm

The pressure NZ create is immense. Good ball is so difficult.
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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by king_carlos on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 4:51 pm

I don't want in any way to take onus away from the Baby Blacks here, they have been exceptional today, the best side all tournament and will be deserved champions. Some of the individual talents in this NZ side the best I've seen at u20 level.

The last 10 minutes have been excellent form the England u20s in the circumstances though. They look knackered and obviously know they've lost but have kept throwing everything they have at a side that are physically dominating them. It's got to be frustrating for guys like Mercer playing without the Currys, Isiekwe, Cokanasiga, Maunder, etc. They've hurled everything you could ask at the last quarter of this game though.

It might be a heavy loss but certainly not a shameful one against an outstanding u20 side.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Hood83 on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 6:27 pm

Well done Baby Blacks. A very good AB side, a very depleted England side. I'm amazed we made it to the final and I think that ranks as an excellent achievement all things considered. Shame we couldn't see full strength sides for both as I think that would have been interesting. This looks a very big, very skilful set of ABs, you'd have to expect a number will step up to the senior side.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by lostinwales on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 9:21 pm

It does P me off that more or less the only time the Beeb has covered the U20's is to record the stuffing we got from the JAB's

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by emack2 on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 9:44 pm

Coverage has been pathetic who was man of the tournament?nothing
in the papers.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by robbo277 on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 10:10 pm

Hood83 wrote:Well done Baby Blacks. A very good AB side, a very depleted England side. I'm amazed we made it to the final and I think that ranks as an excellent achievement all things considered. Shame we couldn't see full strength sides for both as I think that would have been interesting. This looks a very big, very skilful set of ABs, you'd have to expect a number will step up to the senior side.

Just what they need, more big, skillful players Wink

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by DaveM on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 11:04 pm

Oops. Oh well, something like that was always a possibility with so many players missing. Even taking the game in isolation there were some positives to take:

- It should prevent any complacency creeping into the set up.
- They showed excellent spirit in the second half, and even though some players' careers took a big step back today, others stood up well and should be better for the experience.
- I thought Seville looks a very interesting prospect at TH. Ibitoye kept looking for work and it was notable the tries generally came down the other wing. Bayliss always impresses me - I think EJ might prefer his style of game to Mercer's actually. Mitchell did well and I thought Malins kept going despite having a mixed game. Earls played well too.

So I look forward to seeing how the wider squad go next season in pro rugby. I hope players like Malins and Crossdale will get regular game time at a decent level.


Last edited by DaveM on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 11:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by DaveM on Sun 18 Jun 2017, 11:13 pm

A couple of other thoughts - whilst England were being overwhelmed in the first half we didn't have much luck with some of the decisions. The scrum leading to the third try for instance was given despite the fact Randall had both knees on the ground for some time, with tackle not being called.

NZ have some amazing players in this group. I do wonder if Aumua can play for long with that degree of physicality without picking up injuries though. I think Ryan needs to make sure England have a few sizable players in each cohort to help us better handle a side like that, although for instance Aspland-Robinson would surely have done a lot better than Atkins did on the right-wing if he hadn't gotten injured.

Anyway, very well done NZ - a superb side and worthy winners.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Hood83 on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 7:39 am

robbo277 wrote:
Hood83 wrote:Well done Baby Blacks. A very good AB side, a very depleted England side. I'm amazed we made it to the final and I think that ranks as an excellent achievement all things considered. Shame we couldn't see full strength sides for both as I think that would have been interesting. This looks a very big, very skilful set of ABs, you'd have to expect a number will step up to the senior side.

Just what they need, more big, skillful players Wink

Haha, quite.

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Re: England JWC Campaign

Post by Exiledinborders on Mon 19 Jun 2017, 8:14 am

DaveM wrote:A couple of other thoughts - whilst England were being overwhelmed in the first half we didn't have much luck with some of the decisions. The scrum leading to the third try for instance was given despite the fact Randall had both knees on the ground for some time, with tackle not being called.
I agree with that. I could not understand why he did not call a tackle. The first try was just bizarre. The TMO reviewed the pictures which showed the All Black clearly knocking the ball on. All in all the refereeing team had a bit of a shocker.

Having said that the All Blacks were as expected a far stronger side than the much depleted England team. The flow of All Black talent is looking strong. For England the future still looks bright for England with a fifth straight final even with so many players out and many under age players.


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