Has western society reached old age???? Part 1.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Mon 24 Apr 2017, 5:00 pm

Over the last 2 to 3 years there has been a lot of people both sides of the Atlantic swarking on about ''the good ol' days'' and wanting to ''go back to how it used to be''. The general feeling with all this Brexit and the Trump presidency is one of past reflection like people do when they reach a certain age unable to cope with the present day flow of life and trends and technological advancements.

This is a symptom of old age wanting to go back as it were but why???

My take on it is that the west and I mean Europe, USA, Australia, South Africa etc etc can not except the future that they see ahead of them based on the present that they live today and so they see the future as a threat to them. The thing is they are the only people on EARTH who are emotionally invested in this fantasy time travel journey everybody else seems to see a future and they can see progression but westerners do not see the same.

Why???

If you voted Brexit or voted for Trump or La Penn please can you explain to me why the future FOR YOU is sooooo bleak yet for everyone else the future means hope.

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 24 Apr 2017, 5:12 pm

I think a lot of it comes down to a simple lack of understanding as to how the world has changed. My father is a perfect example.

He keeps harping on about how Brexit is a fantastic opportunity for the UK to become a manufacturing economy again "just like it was in the good old days" but he has no understand of how much the world has changed since then. China etc can produce more at a lower cost because the wages and working conditions there are so low. For the UK to do the same at the same price, wages would have to reduce and working conditions would have to worsen. But he doesn't understand that.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon 24 Apr 2017, 5:32 pm

Yup, one of my friend's dad put it best (he's the manager of one of our biggest exporter's) people want to go back to the days where you could afford a good house and have a very good living with mediocre skills. Now those mediocre skills are cheaper in Asia.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Mon 24 Apr 2017, 5:38 pm

Good point Pr4wn it does come down to a lack of understanding.

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Post by Muscular-mouse on Mon 24 Apr 2017, 11:19 pm

Personally I think brexit supporters and trump supporters basically voted due to immigration. Every brexit supporter highlghts immigration as either the main reason or a big reason as to why they voted that way.

A lot of those people are scared of immigration (mainly due to the daily mail writing stupid stories). The problem is that even if when we leave the EU immigration will be just as high as before, we need those workers here for the economy and for jobs that we cant fill wth british workers.

random but a funny comment was made by alex salmond on question time when Suzanne evans of UKIP said she didn't like the EU because it gave EU migrants more rights to move to the UK than non-eu migrants and alex salmond responded by saying that ...So UKIP are saying that they want more immigration but they want more from outside the EU, so all along this has been UKIP's secret plan to decrease eu migration in order to INCREASE immigration from places such as india and china.

obviously he was taking the mick out of Suzanne evans because she was trying to make out like she wanted non-eu migrants to have more chances to come to the UK when every man and their dog know full well that UKIP want nothing less than to let more immigrants in whether they are European or African or indian etc.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 8:28 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Over the last 2 to 3 years there has been a lot of people both sides of the Atlantic swarking on about ''the good ol' days'' and wanting to ''go back to how it used to be''. The general feeling with all this Brexit and the Trump presidency is one of past reflection like people do when they reach a certain age unable to cope with the present day flow of life and trends and technological advancements.

This is a symptom of old age wanting to go back as it were but why???

My take on it is that the west and I mean Europe, USA, Australia, South Africa etc etc can not except the future that they see ahead of them based on the present that they live today and so they see the future as a threat to them. The thing is they are the only people on EARTH who are emotionally invested in this fantasy time travel journey everybody else seems to see a future and they can see progression but westerners do not see the same.

Why???

If you voted Brexit or voted for Trump or La Penn please can you explain to me why the future FOR YOU is sooooo bleak yet for everyone else  the future means hope.
Interesting. This is progress ONETWO. At least in these "Western" democracies you mention, we're allowed to argue the toss about this sort of thing. "I don't agree with what you're saying, but I respect your right to say it"; you know, that sort of thing. If there's an issue with net immigration in these places, at least that means that others want to live in them. Gotta be doing something right eh?

I can guarantee that in every generation, there've been those that have said things like "It ain't as good as it used to be". I'm sure many not in "The West" say the same.

I'd say that this is a teething issue in the "West" re. inevitable Globalisation and the natural loss of traditional feelings of "Nation". In other words, growing up. We'll get over/through it because we're allowed to thrash out ideas without being incarcerated, tortured or murdered for disagreeing with one another. That said, no-one's ever very far away from a Dictatorship (or similar evil), despite the post-Holocaust "never again".

As for your assertion that "Western" democracies are the only ones with an issue with the future, that's utterly laughable I'm afraid. I'd rather be living where I am than, say, under the rule of the al-Saud family etc. What a progressive bunch they and their ilk are...
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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 8:48 am

In all parts of society you will get people saying it was better years ago, hell we often complain about it in work forgetting that the better years ago was when most of us were wrecked every day and it's by some sort of miracle there wasn't a major incident.

As i've said elsewhere, the reason your getting your Brexit votes/UKIP/ that french woman starting to gain popularity is because they seem to be the only ones listening to part of the populace. In Britain in particular we've had this fear of talking about anything involving other cultures (culminating in JP (I think) calling that lady racist for asking a question) that people are tired of it. Lumping all the voters in with 'well it's about immigration innit' doesn't help either. (I voted Brexit as I personally think the EU is too strong and not good for everyone (go look i the Brexit thread it's all in there). But again i'll say that in the good old days i may have had more info which prob would have led to a change in vote (good old spin eh).

There's problems in all corners of the world at the minute and with the terrorist attacks happening here there and everywhere, people are scared and that leads to dumb things but imo NOT having a conversation about it is art of the problem.
For example this ban the burqa crap going on, I find it ridiculous (especially the woman that said it was against our culture or some stuff) but if we have the conversation then people may find it a bit easier to accept.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 3:09 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Over the last 2 to 3 years there has been a lot of people both sides of the Atlantic swarking on about ''the good ol' days'' and wanting to ''go back to how it used to be''. The general feeling with all this Brexit and the Trump presidency is one of past reflection like people do when they reach a certain age unable to cope with the present day flow of life and trends and technological advancements.

This is a symptom of old age wanting to go back as it were but why???

My take on it is that the west and I mean Europe, USA, Australia, South Africa etc etc can not except the future that they see ahead of them based on the present that they live today and so they see the future as a threat to them. The thing is they are the only people on EARTH who are emotionally invested in this fantasy time travel journey everybody else seems to see a future and they can see progression but westerners do not see the same.

Why???

If you voted Brexit or voted for Trump or La Penn please can you explain to me why the future FOR YOU is sooooo bleak yet for everyone else  the future means hope.
Interesting. This is progress ONETWO. At least in these "Western" democracies you mention, we're allowed to argue the toss about this sort of thing. "I don't agree with what you're saying, but I respect your right to say it"; you know, that sort of thing. If there's an issue with net immigration in these places, at least that means that others want to live in them. Gotta be doing something right eh?

I can guarantee that in every generation, there've been those that have said things like "It ain't as good as it used to be". I'm sure many not in "The West" say the same.

I'd say that this is a teething issue in the "West" re. inevitable Globalisation and the natural loss of traditional feelings of "Nation". In other words, growing up. We'll get over/through it because we're allowed to thrash out ideas without being incarcerated, tortured or murdered for disagreeing with one another. That said, no-one's ever very far away from a Dictatorship (or similar evil), despite the post-Holocaust "never again".

As for your assertion that "Western" democracies are the only ones with an issue with the future, that's utterly laughable I'm afraid. I'd rather be living where I am than, say, under the rule of the al-Saud family etc. What a progressive bunch they and their ilk are...



thats not the point I was making.

The west is seen as the first world and it is, but with all our resources and techno we cannot seem to see a future its not about comparing conditions.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 4:41 pm

Of course 'we' can see a future. By definition, there will be a future. You don't think any of the so-called benefits that Western democracies 'enjoy' have come easy, with no disagreements between anyone?

Actually, to be clear - exactly what point are you trying to make here?
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 6:28 pm

My point is that the west has reached a turning point in time.

Its a time where simply carrying on as normal will not work. I feel as if the west has run out of road to traverse and going back seems to be the only option.

But going back is negative the world moves forward and as much as we would love to have the power to go back we just cant. The west has experienced much change over the last say 60 years. In Europe the influx of immigration has grown to a level that was most likely not expected now immigrants take the blame for this but you cant blame immigrants for the fact that Europe is an ageing society with more older people and far fewer babies being born to ethnic Europeans. Immigrants however are having more children and growing year by year.

The family which used to be the cornerstone of any society in Europe and the US has all but died in name. Family was one trait of the good ol' days but more and more women are rejecting marriage and children to pursue careers.

The moral fibre of western society has been eroding away for years now and I dont think the west has the moral compus it once had to point the finger at anyone else in this world.

My point is that the west has had a good run of it, its had a great life, and it has enjoyed the fruits of its endeavours but father time has crept up on it and it now desperately tries to hang on to what it holds dear in the world and thats its identity. Brexit, Trump, Make America great again, Britain first, etc etc are last chance throws of the dice but I think the west has peaked a long time ago.

A wise Native American once said, before the conquest of the Spanish in the new world, that everything moves in cycles and then a new cycle begins.

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Post by Derbymanc on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 8:49 am

You could say that about literally any point in time though 1/2, if your only going to focus on the negatives then that's all you can see.

Immigration - Actually isn't as bad as you look at it, it provides a wide ranging workforce, allows more careers open to others etc etc and puts more money into the tax coffers. (remember focus on the positives).

Families - Are closer together as less people are leaving home at an early age which is allowing the family dynamic to grow and with more opportunities than ever for woman to pursue their career earnings are higher for most which leads to a better quality of life. One of the unseen benefits is more time for Grandparents as they are often looking after children whilst parents are at work (this can also be extended to Aunts Uncle's etc.

Moral Fibre - With the integration of many different cultures/religions this has led to a more diverese set of morals rather than a rigid set. AS a society we have become more open to many different things but moreso with the LGBTQ side of things that was once seen as evil is now accepted with open arms by most of the West, this has led to greater rights and more equality across the board. There was a problem at one point with Porn but with the internet now a major part of life it has led to many people having the 'discussion' earlier and creating clearer boundaries for the youth of today which should steal them well for the future.

Some of the other positives that have taken on leaps and bounds and are still being developed.

Renewable energy (wind/solar etc) now a much bigger priority and more encompassing as the government passes bills to encourage the use of this where possible.
Transport - The whole world is now open to us by many different and safe means of transport, with even space exploration opening up to the tourist market.
Wages - Have as always fluctuated and whilst at the moment are at a low the opportunities available to everyone is bigger than it ever has been.


And so on and so forth

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 9:42 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:My point is that the west has reached a turning point in time.

Its a time where simply carrying on as normal will not work. I feel as if the west has run out of road to traverse and going back seems to be the only option.

But going back is negative the world moves forward and as much as we would love to have the power to go back we just cant. The west has experienced much change over the last say 60 years. In Europe the influx of immigration has grown to a level that was most likely not expected now immigrants take the blame for this but you cant blame immigrants for the fact that Europe is an ageing society with more older people and far fewer babies being born to ethnic Europeans. Immigrants however are having more children and growing year by year.

The family which used to be the cornerstone of any society in Europe and the US has all but died in name. Family was one trait of the good ol' days but more and more women are rejecting marriage and children to pursue careers.

The moral fibre of western society has been eroding away for years now and I dont think the west has the moral compus it once had to point the finger at anyone else in this world.

My point is that the west has had a good run of it, its had a great life, and it has enjoyed the fruits of its endeavours but father time has crept up on it and it now desperately tries to hang on to what it holds dear in the world and thats its identity. Brexit, Trump, Make America great again, Britain first, etc etc are last chance throws of the dice but I think the west has peaked a long time ago.

A wise Native American once said, before the conquest of the Spanish in the new world, that everything moves in cycles and then a new cycle begins.  
Fine. I disagree with pretty much all of this. The 'West' clearly has to think about immigration, but as I said before, at least people want to come here. Complex issues to be sure, but we'll no doubt manage.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 11:11 am

No...the west is going through an overreaction to China and India's entry into the global Job market, manufacturing strengths and general entry into the world's economies. You can't get away with substandard stuff anymore as China can afford to produce different standards of stuff for different markets. As their quality of life improves and they start getting into their workers rights. For the UK in particular this has been troublesome because of the failure to invest in retraining and education. Too much playing at superpower and not enough focus on the future. The Germans did it right, invest, invest, invest and sell high quality items abroad that people will want to buy regardless of the cost. So Mercedes, Vw, Audis can sell at 70k and sell hundreds of thousands and the product is so good that people use the cheaper versions as taxis as there's the prestige and the substantial savings on fuel on motorways. For us everything we lose jobs we've got people whose skills are non transferable and struggle to start again. When the Germans lose jobs their people are qualified enough to move into another field without too much ado. Essentially, our over focus on being a big time Charlie has left us unprepared and now the actual big time Charlies have moved into the playground we hide in a corner somewhere hoping to snatch time at the top when the big guys have been suspended for a week. That's an oversimplification and the problems are complex but like Navy said we'll muddle through them someway somehow or fall behind. Brexit is a big setback and Mad May's insistence that students be considered as immigrants and subject to the general crackdown will hamstring us. That said she won't always be in power and despite delay, we will recover. That most of us probably won't be alive to see it is beside the point.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 11:40 am

Pr4wn wrote:I think a lot of it comes down to a simple lack of understanding as to how the world has changed. My father is a perfect example.

He keeps harping on about how Brexit is a fantastic opportunity for the UK to become a manufacturing economy again "just like it was in the good old days" but he has no understand of how much the world has changed since then. China etc can produce more at a lower cost because the wages and working conditions there are so low. For the UK to do the same at the same price, wages would have to reduce and working conditions would have to worsen. But he doesn't understand that.

You're forgetting there are many, many different types of manufacturing.

China, Taiwan, Korea excel at mass-produced, low-cost items. They're also pretty handy at doing designer knock-offs.

However, there is also a substantial market for mid to high-end goods, produced on smaller scales. People are still willing to pay a premium for top brand / genuine designer goods. There are also lots of small companies starting to pop up, producing everything from cheese to whiskey...there is also a market for regionally produced goods.

Just because we're not churning out cars or widgets by the thousand any more, doesn't mean the UK can't have a substantial manufacturing base. Very different to how it was in the 1970s maybe, but still perfectly viable.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 26 Apr 2017, 12:07 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Over the last 2 to 3 years there has been a lot of people both sides of the Atlantic swarking on about ''the good ol' days'' and wanting to ''go back to how it used to be''. The general feeling with all this Brexit and the Trump presidency is one of past reflection like people do when they reach a certain age unable to cope with the present day flow of life and trends and technological advancements.

This is a symptom of old age wanting to go back as it were but why???

My take on it is that the west and I mean Europe, USA, Australia, South Africa etc etc can not except the future that they see ahead of them based on the present that they live today and so they see the future as a threat to them. The thing is they are the only people on EARTH who are emotionally invested in this fantasy time travel journey everybody else seems to see a future and they can see progression but westerners do not see the same.

Why???

If you voted Brexit or voted for Trump or La Penn please can you explain to me why the future FOR YOU is sooooo bleak yet for everyone else  the future means hope.

Some strange ideas you've got there OneTwo, but I'll give you my tuppence worth anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, I voted for Brexit because I want a different kind of future for the country. Going "backwards" or "forwards" has nothing to do with it. Time marches ever onward and there is nothing anyone can do to change that.

I saw the problems the rest of the EU was having with things like bankruptcy, mass uncontrolled immigration and the rise of terrorist activity that accompanied it. This may have been co-incidental - perhaps the terrorists would have sneaked in anyway. I'm also aware that the radicalisation of citizens and their participation in terrorist activities both home and abroad may have occurred anyway.

I also object to the UK's loss of sovereignty, insofar as we are subject to EU legislation, largely formulated by Europeans who probably don't give a damn about the UK. Our judicial system is subject to over-ruling by the European courts. We cannot properly control our own borders. We cannot form trade deals with nations outside the EU.

The UK fishing industry has been forced to accept crippling quotas, while France, Spain and other nations fish in UK waters.

We also pay huge sums of money to be part of this "club" with dubious benefits. Sure we get subsidies, but basically thats just getting paid NOT to produce things there are a surplus of, or to produce things, even though its not economically viable to do so...which is just ridiculous.

The only real loss of leaving the EU (as far as I'm concerned) is the trade tariffs that will result from leaving the single market. So yes, it'll cost more to trade with Europe, but I very much doubt it will cause the UK economy to collapse.


I also don't buy the hysteria from Labour and the Remainers that the UK will suddenly become some fascist dictatorship, with all EU nationals getting booted out of the country, all the human rights, environmental and work-related legislation getting ripped up and our economy going down the toilet.


So, to summarise, far from seeing a bleak future, I firmly believe Brexit could be the start of a great new era for the UK. Of course I expect some problems...such great and sweeping changes will inevitably come with some pain, but long-term I think we will as a country be better for it.

As for Americans voting for Trump...well thats obvious, they just be crayyyzeh! Or if you're into fake news, it was the Russians that rigged it. Wink


So I'll ask OneTwo the reverse question: why do you see these things as being the product of fantasising old-timers wanting to lead us back to some dystopian nightmare?
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 09 May 2017, 9:24 am

Not to really be agreeing with 1/2, but:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170418-how-western-civilisation-could-collapse

An interesting article...
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