Ulster 2016/2017

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Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Redman on Fri 28 Apr 2017, 5:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

Redman wrote:
clivemcl wrote:Any inside info on Dom Ryan yet? 27 and the only IQ backrower not tied up for next year. Where do you put his out of interest in a pecking order? Better or worse than Clive Ross? My hunch is better, but I've not really ever watched him closely.

Has to be better.  I looked him up before and he has something like 100 or so caps for Leinster.  Ross has about 50 for us, and it's got to be tougher to get a cap for Leinster than it is for Ulster in the backrow - even allowing for international call ups.  

Dryan ®, as he shall be known if he signs, also has 20 or so U20 caps.  

That said, I haven't seen him play.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 07 May 2017, 1:19 pm

Ringrose just run around McCloskey in one of those instances as if he was a front rower.

geoff, you mention AOC calling lineouts, I wasn't sure who was calling at the time but during the match I noticed that we actually had the intelligence to shorten the lineout or go to the front when things weren't going great. There were times when vdM was calling the lineouts he wasn't doing that. AOC also called a lot of ball to himself which for me shows leadership. Though he did have a brain fart when we got a penalty and he threw the ball away when Pienaar wanted to take a quick penalty, he wasn't long letting him know it either.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Redman on Sun 07 May 2017, 1:24 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:That was all about showing passion and wanting to put in a performance for the two boys leaving - pity the same commitment wasn't there in other games.

Re is there an anti-Kiss set, what I can confirm is a significant group of players do not rate him as a coach but not aware of players disliking him as a man.
As to Ludik that was a fair few games ago, sure discipline him by not picking him and fining him but don't cast him out in the darkness for ever more which is what appears to have happened.

Just pray Kiss is going upstairs as DofR and Gibbes runs the show, otherwise it is confusion again next year.
Kiss is, effectively, doing everything as the other two are, effectively, on gardening leave.
Lineout shambles reflects that - picking AOC to call the lineouts is a strange one

Twice in that game McCloskey was totally exposed defensively - around 65 mins and 78 mins
He has the turning circle of an oil tanker.
That needs rectifying otherwise his career is going into reverse.  

How much of this do you think is just the poor tackling technique that our players adopt to try and activate the choke tackle? Hendy gets away with it usually because he is ridiculously strong, but many other times we see players go high and just miss the tackle entirely.

I think teaching the players to tackle normally would be nice, we certainly overdo the choke tackle and it doesn't work half as much as it used to.

I'm convinced this is the coaches telling them to go for the choke for 1 simple reason. We carry no breakdown threat.

Exclude yesterday and the 2 good steals from Diack and Lutton, when's the last time we actually managed to pose a threat the opposition breakdown? Was it the Cardiff game where they had endless amounts of possession because they played low risk rugby and flooded the ruck area? Whatever team it was, they knew if they played it safe Ulster would never get their hands on the ball. That total lack of threat means we can't slow the ball down on the opposition, and with quick ball we're constantly on the defensive.

Ulster seem to realize this and our counter is to try and go high and choke. If not with the aim of actually converting to a maul, at least with the objective of slowing play up to buy our defense more time to set because we won't be slowing the ball up when it's on the ground.

As mentioned by many, the downside of such tactics is we're going to miss a number of tackles. And when an Ulster player misses a tackle, usually the opposition punish us ruthlessly. We're not talking 5-15m gains, we're talking 20-30m gains.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by profitius on Sun 07 May 2017, 1:53 pm

What's the story with Angus Lloyd? He looked very good for munster yesterday.
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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 07 May 2017, 2:48 pm

If he not with us next year Cunningham and Kiss should be shot

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 07 May 2017, 4:08 pm

I'd gor further and say if he's not at least second choice next season they should be shot

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 07 May 2017, 5:50 pm

Agreed

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Don Alfonso on Sun 07 May 2017, 10:15 pm

Piutau Pro12 Players' Player of the Year. Pienaar's try against Glasgow Try of the Year.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by clivemcl on Sun 07 May 2017, 10:21 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Piutau Pro12 Players' Player of the Year. Pienaar's try against Glasgow Try of the Year.

Really? Headscratch

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Redman on Sun 07 May 2017, 10:26 pm

Anyone who's been stepped by him would probably vote for him.

Close your eyes and imagine him playing with a good team, tactically functioning backline and motivated.

On pure ability he's the leagues best player.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Redman on Sun 07 May 2017, 10:30 pm

I don't remember the Glasgow try in truth.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Redman on Sun 07 May 2017, 10:32 pm

Oh it's Pienaar for try of the season. Thought it was Piutau. Was this the one he started and finished, running he length of the field?

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Redman on Sun 07 May 2017, 10:38 pm

Those were some poor posts. What I'm trying to say is the players won't vote for a tryer no matter how well they'll done. They'll vote for the player who can do what they can't. Many of them will have faced Piutau and realised he's a class above even if Ulster ended up losing.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by clivemcl on Sun 07 May 2017, 10:43 pm

I don't doubt Piutau's skill, but its an award for player of the year, not which player belongs to a Pro12 team who has the most ability if only they all clicked.

I guess he did have some periods of brilliance, but I am genuinely surprised that no player from the top 4 was deemed to have had a better season in terms of performances???

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Redman on Sun 07 May 2017, 11:01 pm

It's Players' Player of the Year. That's what I was trying to say. He's the player that, on his day, they aspire to be.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Redman on Sun 07 May 2017, 11:02 pm

I don't think anyone can claim he's the most consistent or even overall player of the season.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by clivemcl on Sun 07 May 2017, 11:21 pm

I understand - makes more sense then I guess

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Sun 07 May 2017, 11:34 pm

I think guys like Bleyendaal and Conan can feel hard done by

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 08 May 2017, 9:50 am

geoff999rugby wrote:If he not with us next year Cunningham and Kiss should be shot

As he's only on loan to Munster surely it's got to be a no brainer. He's ours, we'll have him back thanks very much.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Mon 08 May 2017, 10:02 am

Come on Pete this is the IRFU we are dealing with, we'll probably get told we have too many scrum halves next season and Munster don't have enough so we have to let Lloyd go, actually on that has Duncan Williams resigned for next season if not that'll leave them with two and Murray being one and missing for half the season

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 08 May 2017, 10:05 am

marty2086 wrote:Come on Pete this is the IRFU we are dealing with, we'll probably get told we have too many scrum halves next season and Munster don't have enough so we have to let Lloyd go, actually on that has Duncan Williams resigned for next season if not that'll leave them with two and Murray being one and missing for half the season

Sadly true Marty.
The IRFU do something of benefit to Ulster??? Hell freezing over comes to mind.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by rodders on Mon 08 May 2017, 10:06 am

Decent performance to sign off a disappointing season against a very good Leinster side, especially considering we had no set piece.

Really sad to see Ruan go, it's the end of an era. The IRFU should have made an exception for one of the best players ever to play on Irish soil but it is done now, hopefully he can have a decent spell at Montpelier and return as a coach.

I've never been a big fan of Wilson but it's hard to knock someone who's played that many games. I think he played his best years at Saints behind a very dominant pack but he's been a great servant to Ulster so nice to see him sign off with a try.

Nice to see a better game from Trimble, who hasn't had his best season but looked more comfortable with the captains armband.

Good luck to Leinster in the play-offs, roll on next season.



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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Mon 08 May 2017, 10:32 am

Shame that Wilson put in his best performance for years in his last game, Ferris saying on BBC he has struggled with his back for that time. Should we be worried that for two years our medical team couldn't alleviate the pain or solve the problem to free him up to play to a higher standard?

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by rodders on Mon 08 May 2017, 10:34 am

marty2086 wrote:Shame that Wilson put in his best performance for years in his last game, Ferris saying on BBC he has struggled with his back for that time. Should we be worried that for two years our medical team couldn't alleviate the pain or solve the problem to free him up to play to a higher standard?

No I'd be more worried why he's been on the payroll for 2-3 years when he's not been physically up to it anymore. Probably having shares in Cornerflag helped...
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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Mon 08 May 2017, 10:52 am

rodders that's the problem, without knowing the exact problem most back issues are treatable so it would seem if it was treated and he missed some games he may have been able to play at a higher level. If it wasn't treatable then he should have been signed off and the problem not made worse

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 08 May 2017, 11:34 am

Someone on t'other forum was having a chat with a few inside parties and reported this:

"Well the whole coaching team is fractured all parties have been actively undermining each other. That'll not be news to anyone. Kiss is struggling to handle the whole thing and there is a view that Gibbes role will be significantly different to Doak's. All parties are culpable to some extent in the breakdown."

Nothing we didn't already know but that highlighted bit is what we'd been hoping at least.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by rodders on Mon 08 May 2017, 11:41 am

Seems a mess.

I wonder why Ulster always seems to have these internal issues and not the other provinces.
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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Mon 08 May 2017, 12:04 pm

Did Leinster not have issues with Matt O'Connor and Munster with Tony McGahan?

It would be interesting to know the ins and outs and what each party see as being wrong with the situation, Doak did seem almost broken by it when he was being interviewed last week and Pienaar seemed to mention him in every interview last week, Clarke not so much

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 08 May 2017, 12:36 pm

What are your guys thoughts on Ulsters season ? It must be said that from my point of view it has been very mediocre, Ulster were my tips for the league this year after the signings they made but they have been very poor by their own standards. I know I will get a lashing on here for saying this, but I think it is time for Rory Best to hand the captaincy over, it might improve his game if he only had himself to worry about. He is not the talisman he once was unfortunately.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Mon 08 May 2017, 12:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:What are your guys thoughts on Ulsters season ? It must be said that from my point of view it has been very mediocre, Ulster were my tips for the league this year after the signings they made but they have been very poor by their own standards. I know I will get a lashing on here for saying this, but I think it is time for Rory Best to hand the captaincy over, it might improve his game if he only had himself to worry about. He is not the talisman he once was unfortunately.

LD, you do realise Rory isn't Ulsters captain?

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 08 May 2017, 12:44 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What are your guys thoughts on Ulsters season ? It must be said that from my point of view it has been very mediocre, Ulster were my tips for the league this year after the signings they made but they have been very poor by their own standards. I know I will get a lashing on here for saying this, but I think it is time for Rory Best to hand the captaincy over, it might improve his game if he only had himself to worry about. He is not the talisman he once was unfortunately.

LD, you do realise Rory isn't Ulsters captain?

I didn't, but I do now. Very Happy

But I also do think that Ulster over rely on him. I do not see anything in him that makes him the catalyst for Ulster, or Ireland. His throwing at the line out is sub standard, and his scrummaging is not what it once was either. Next season, instead of signing the Piutau's and the Coetzee's, the latter's injuries have not helped, of this world, you need to make some astute signings in the front row, even some more experienced players from around the place.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Mon 08 May 2017, 12:52 pm

Given you didn't know that Best wasn't the captain it seems clear you haven't watched much of Ulster

Our biggest problem is in the back row so signings like Coetzee are needed that's why we also have Arno Botha coming in next season, we also have Schalk Van Der Merwe from the Lions coming in at LH.

Not sure what you base your analysis of Bests scrummaging on as he still one of the best in the world when it comes to scrummaging hookers, his throwing has went off since the start of the 6Ns and dealing with a lineout problems for Ireland and Ulster he seems to be over compensating for the lineout problems.


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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 08 May 2017, 1:02 pm

Our over reliance on Rory Best? Really LD? A player who wasn't with us for a decent chunk of the season is not one I'd say we over rely on. His scrum art is still of the highest quality if his darts aren't.
Ulster's season has been one of utter frustration. Even many of the wins were dire affairs leaving us fans feeling less than satisfied. There's been a few really good performances but mediocrity has been our staple diet. We can only look forward to next season which will see a coaching shake-up that was badly needed and a few nice looking signings to compliment what's current. Of course being handicapped by the Munstercentric IRFU at scrum-half won't help matters but we'll just have to cope with it.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by clivemcl on Mon 08 May 2017, 1:37 pm

LD, I'm normally fairly level headed, but I simply cannot hold my tongue. I've never seen such blatant uninformed trolling. Go get a job or do something meaningful with your time. Who does this? Who thinks 'Today I think I'll go leave some negative comments about a team and their key players on their forum thread'. GET A LIFE.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 08 May 2017, 2:05 pm

Oh for heaven's sake grow up. He hasn't said anything remotely bad. In fact, Andrew Trimble recently gave an interview that supports his opinion that we rely too much on Rory Best. Last season he said there were 14 players standing there clueless looking to Rory and asking what they should do. Best has effectively been captain even if not in name. Trimble is not a leader and I don't know what has happened with Herring.

Some people think Ulster fans can come off as fairly aggressive and sometimes you can see why.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Mon 08 May 2017, 2:47 pm

Actually Trimble said the opposite Rory

It's taken a little bit off him and allowed him to be himself a little bit. You're far better having a team full of leaders than having one guy that everybody looks at

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 08 May 2017, 3:05 pm

Where? He says things have eased up for Rory, but I don't see any evidence that the team still don't heavily depend on him for direction. What leaders is Trimble talking about? I've only seen two all season (Best and Coetzee).

Best is still the player who speaks to the referee in a lot of the games I have watched this season.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Don Alfonso on Mon 08 May 2017, 3:08 pm

LD is right on the money about our season being disappointing.

It's feck all to do with Rory Best. If he's interested, he can ski[p back four or five pages and see that the issue is having coaches at open war with each other. Or we can tell him that now. If he's not actually interested, then that's fine.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 08 May 2017, 3:54 pm

Wow, you cannot even have an opinion, and try and have a decent adult conversation about it on here without people being grade A a-holes.

Wow, just, WOW.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Don Alfonso on Mon 08 May 2017, 4:01 pm

Ach c'mon.

Yeah - rubbish season, but an outlier in terms of our coaching team (who have never been great) having an absolute meltdown. Big clear-out, a seriously good head coach coming in next season and your very own Dwayne Peel.

Hoping for a serious turnaround. Some decent youngsters kicking around.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 08 May 2017, 4:05 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Wow, you cannot even have an opinion, and try and have a decent adult conversation about it on here without people being grade A a-holes.

Wow, just, WOW.

picard

In fairness you've done a fair bit of trolling in the past LD and sometimes people react to what they get used to.
I actually didn't see this as trolling for a change so answered you in normal mode.
Clive however saw your name and went directly to attack mode.
You should see this place when we're feeling completely defeated and deflated, defensive mode can be our default setting to perennial trolls Wink

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 08 May 2017, 4:05 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Ach c'mon.

Yeah - rubbish season, but an outlier in terms of our coaching team (who have never been great) having an absolute meltdown. Big clear-out, a seriously good head coach coming in next season and your very own Dwayne Peel.

Hoping for a serious turnaround. Some decent youngsters kicking around.

Dwayne Peel, i did not know this. Well,well, if he can coach half as good as he could play in his pomp then you will have a real asset there, a master of the quick tap, and he could tackle wardrobes if you let him. If anything he has a wealth of knowledge he can pass on, I wish I could say I am not envious, hopefully Ulster turn him into a decent backs coach and he comes back home to us. Wink

With the investment Ulster have had, then you should demand a serious turnaround next season, Ulster are again, along with Scarlets going to be my tips for the league next season.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 08 May 2017, 4:09 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:In fairness you've done a fair bit of trolling in the past LD and sometimes people react to what they get used to.

I promise you this, I do not come on here to troll, I do have strong opinions, and most of the time people do not like them, but that is up to them, it's a free world after all.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by marty2086 on Mon 08 May 2017, 4:10 pm

Rory, his worst game in about 4 years was against the Ospreys and it was the least interaction I've seen him have with a ref in that period. The problems with Ulster and individual form are numerous and varied, can more people step up? Of course, but don't forget we have been out some of our biggest leaders for large chunks of the season in Payne, Cave and Henry plus Herring seems to be almost AWOL at times and no doubt the problems at training have played a part in it

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Don Alfonso on Mon 08 May 2017, 4:11 pm

Next season might be a bit early but with Jonno Gibbes at the helm, rather than two guys who fist-fight at training and cancel sessions, I can't see anything other than a serious improvement.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 08 May 2017, 4:32 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Ach c'mon.

Yeah - rubbish season, but an outlier in terms of our coaching team (who have never been great) having an absolute meltdown. Big clear-out, a seriously good head coach coming in next season and your very own Dwayne Peel.

Hoping for a serious turnaround. Some decent youngsters kicking around.

Dwayne Peel, i did not know this. Well,well, if he can coach half as good as he could play in his pomp then you will have a real asset there, a master of the quick tap, and he could tackle wardrobes if you let him. If anything he has a wealth of knowledge he can pass on, I wish I could say I am not envious, hopefully Ulster turn him into a decent backs coach and he comes back home to us. Wink

With the investment Ulster have had, then you should demand a serious turnaround next season, Ulster are again, along with Scarlets going to be my tips for the league next season.

LD, if you read above, Don's post will tell you the main crux of Ulster's problems for the past few seasons. This season left us relatively coachless such was the disfunctionality. A backs coach and forwards coach who got physical leading to more than one training session being cancelled, many more being ruined. A functional coaching team will work wonders IMO, the players have the ability perform and they really do want to play for the shirt regardless of what went on this season. A quick turnaround can be done, I doubt it'll happen overnight but we will not be as bad as we've been this season. I'll bet a lot of money on it.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by clivemcl on Mon 08 May 2017, 4:50 pm

LD initially asked us for our opinion on how our season went. That.... that is appropriate and how normal people have discussions.

But before anyone actually give any answers, he dives right in with his mis-informed opinion that we have been bad, and guess what, he has a list of reasons why.

I call that trolling. I have opinions about a lot of things - doesn't mean I think it's appropriate to get right into the middle of the thing and start telling people my thoughts.

Feel free to come and look for insight, but how about you hold fire on your analysis until you actually gather some of the information you quite clearly didn't have.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 08 May 2017, 4:53 pm

Clive, I do not need to wait for people's insight for me to come to the conclusion that Rory Best has been a shadow of the player he is capable of being this season. OK

Oh, and that is for both Ulster and Ireland.

The guy needs a break. A well earned break. Also, if he is not Ulsters captain anymore, then perhaps he should hand the baton of doing post match interviews and the what not to somebody else.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Mon 08 May 2017, 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by clivemcl on Mon 08 May 2017, 4:53 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Ach c'mon.

Yeah - rubbish season, but an outlier in terms of our coaching team (who have never been great) having an absolute meltdown. Big clear-out, a seriously good head coach coming in next season and your very own Dwayne Peel.

Hoping for a serious turnaround. Some decent youngsters kicking around.

Dwayne Peel, i did not know this. Well,well, if he can coach half as good as he could play in his pomp then you will have a real asset there, a master of the quick tap, and he could tackle wardrobes if you let him. If anything he has a wealth of knowledge he can pass on, I wish I could say I am not envious, hopefully Ulster turn him into a decent backs coach and he comes back home to us. Wink

With the investment Ulster have had, then you should demand a serious turnaround next season, Ulster are again, along with Scarlets going to be my tips for the league next season.

LD, if you read above, Don's post will tell you the main crux of Ulster's problems for the past few seasons. This season left us relatively coachless such was  the disfunctionality. A backs coach and forwards coach who got physical leading to more than one training session being cancelled, many more being ruined. A functional coaching team will work wonders IMO, the players have the ability perform and they really do want to play for the shirt regardless of what went on this season. A quick turnaround can be done, I doubt it'll happen overnight but we will not be as bad as we've been this season. I'll bet a lot of money on it.

Don't forget Barakat and our once nailed on lock upping and leaving.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by rodders on Mon 08 May 2017, 4:59 pm

clivemcl wrote:LD initially asked us for our opinion on how our season went. That.... that is appropriate and how normal people have discussions.

But before anyone actually give any answers, he dives right in with his mis-informed opinion that we have been bad, and guess what, he has a list of reasons why.

Why should LD not be able to express his opinion?

He may or may not have watched all Ulsters games but that doesn't necessarily make him mis-informed.

I don't think it is surprising that some still presume Best to be club captain, given he's been a go to guy on field for both officials and his teammates when he has played and is the current International captain.

Given how many games he's missed I don't think it could be said that we rely on him specifically but definitely he's part of a core group of experienced players that the don't function very well without.

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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

Post by rodders on Mon 08 May 2017, 5:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Clive, I do not need to wait for people's insight for me to come to the conclusion that Rory Best has been a shadow of the player he is capable of being this season. OK

Oh, and that is for both Ulster and Ireland.

The guy needs a break. A well earned break. Also, if he is not Ulsters captain anymore, then perhaps he should hand the baton of doing post match interviews and the what not to somebody else.

He did captain a few times in Trimble's absence so perhaps this was why he was doing the post match interviews.

I agree that he hasn't hit top form since the Autumn, bar the England game in the 6N maybe but think you are overstating his lack of form.
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Re: Ulster 2016/2017

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