Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

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Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 01 May 2017, 2:19 pm

First topic message reminder :



An interesting piece of analysis of the final 10 minutes of France vs Wales in the 6N in the blog post below, where 3 of the 11 offences spotted by the author were actually pinged

https://theblitzdefence.wordpress.com/2017/03/24/why-professional-rugby-is-impossible-to-referee/

The overall conclusion is an interesting one - thoughts?

"Given the number of offences by each side that are ignored by the officials, we can easily see how supporters end up feeling their team has been hard done by and then blame the referee.

There isn’t an easy solution to the problem. The 3 possibilities are:

i) coaches and players back off and stop offending so frequently – which isn’t likely to happen given the win at all costs of modern rugby

ii) the officials start to penalise more offences

iii) we move towards the american football model of officiating, with a number of officials looking at different types of offences at any time"

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by marty2086 on Thu 04 May 2017, 3:54 pm

Scottrf wrote:Now we are getting somewhere.

Can you now prove that it's not playing style related i.e. that it's not just because Barnes is stricter with the type of offenses Ireland commit compared to other refs.

Its funny how its an offence when Ireland do it yet if their opponents do it then its not Rolling Eyes

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by rodders on Thu 04 May 2017, 3:58 pm

Scottrf wrote:Now we are getting somewhere.

Can you now prove that it's not playing style related i.e. that it's not just because Barnes is stricter with the type of offenses Ireland commit compared to other refs.

Another consideration (probably has a big effect) is that Barnes refs high profile games. You're not under pressure against Fiji so fixtures like that will skew the stats because Ireland wont need to commit offenses to give away yellows, but the opponents will.

I doubt Ireland have half the number of yellows vs other top sides, minnows skew it.

Yeah the other thing is Barnes only refs our away games as he hates Ireland so much he won't come over.
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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by aucklandlaurie on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:04 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Now we are getting somewhere.

Can you now prove that it's not playing style related i.e. that it's not just because Barnes is stricter with the type of offenses Ireland commit compared to other refs.

Its funny how its an offence when Ireland do it yet if their opponents do it then its not Rolling Eyes

 I dont see how that comes into it, the referee is adjudicating the game in front of him, not making decisions based on where the player comes from.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're criticising how quickly he red cards heaslip? A mere couple of minutes after he's blown his whistle after a scuffle. What does that matter in relation to deeming how good a ref he is?

I dont think the debate is whether he is a good ref anymore. Surely that debate was put to bed a long time ago.

For the McCaw incident McCaw comes over the top of the ruck, lies there and kills the ball right in front of Barnes. Barnes ignores it. Heaslip then knees McCaw on his shoulder. You can see McCaws head between Healy's legs when the strikes land so it is very unlikely he hit McCaws head. It was stupid from Heaslip and a soft red but it should have been a yellow for McCaw too for blatantly killing the ball. Mealamu also throws a punch in the ruck right after Heaslip throws the second knee.

Barnes was clearly trying to over compensated for knocking NZ out of the 07 RWC. He was yet again way out of his depth.


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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:09 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Now we are getting somewhere.

Can you now prove that it's not playing style related i.e. that it's not just because Barnes is stricter with the type of offenses Ireland commit compared to other refs.

Its funny how its an offence when Ireland do it yet if their opponents do it then its not Rolling Eyes

 I dont see how that comes into it, the referee is adjudicating the game in front of him, not making decisions based on where the player comes from.

So Graham Henry was wrong when he accused Barnes of match fixing in his auto-biography with reference to the 2007 RWC NZ v France match?

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Scottrf on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:10 pm

Just another to add to the long list of Kiwi excuses.

Have they ever genuinely lost a game?

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:11 pm

I did see the punch. Was there tmo back then to check? I can't remember when it was brought in. Clear red though you'd agree with barnes and the citing officer. You only mentioned the speed of the card though. A couple of min. You think ge should have blown earlier and flashed the card quicker to defuse the situation I assume?

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:14 pm

Maestry said something similar this year. Granted that's because the big lock doesn't know the actual laws but that's beside the point.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:17 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're criticising how quickly he red cards heaslip? A mere couple of minutes after he's blown his whistle after a scuffle. What does that matter in relation to deeming how good a ref he is?

The card came out after the scuffle but he had made the decision already. As soon as Barnes saw the knee he whistled straight away. He was dying to get the card out but just stood there and stared at McCaw lying on the ball like a village idiot and did nothing as McCaw killed it on the line. By contrast when Sexon lay under the ball against Wales he scrambled to get the card out straight away.

As usual Mealamu got away for the punch and the scuffle after the incident.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Scottrf on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:18 pm

'Dying to get the card out' - 2 minutes. He's now corrupt because of how much he enjoys giving out legitimate cards against Ireland.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:21 pm

When did tmo s come in? If it were before then that's barnes' mistake not going up to review. Not sure he had the option though.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Poorfour on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:24 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
So Graham Henry was wrong when he accused Barnes of match fixing in his auto-biography with reference to the 2007 RWC NZ v France match?

Man with axe to grind grinds axe.

Henry is hardly an unbiased observer. The IRB (as was) refs panel didn't seem to have a problem with it, because Barnes has refereed plenty of high profile games since then. Most DoRs also seem to regard him highly - earlier this week the Quins DoR described him as the best ref working in the AP.

Different refs have different interpretations. Some teams can adapt, most teams have certain refs to whose interpretations they just don't adapt well. We can also all point to days when refs have had a bad day at the office.

It's well worth reading Ed Morrison and Derek Robinson's Better Rugby Refereeing if you can get hold of a copy. It's a few years old and out of print but it's written as a discussion between a top level ref (who took the 1995 RWC Final) and an author and amateur ref. I find it has some really helpful insights on what's actually involved in reffing and what a ref is trying to do - in particular why they might overlook some things and not others. [url=https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0955590108 ]Used copies on sale here[/url]

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:28 pm

Scottrf wrote:'Dying to get the card out' - 2 minutes. He's now corrupt because of how much he enjoys giving out legitimate cards against Ireland.

A legitimate ref would have penalised and carded McCaw for lying on the ball and killing it on his line and the incident would never have occurred. In any case it was a fairly soft red. Heaslip only had himself to blame for giving a ref who loves to card Irish players the chance to do so.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:30 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Barnes loves to get the cards out in general. This was pretty obvious for the Sexton card v Wales in this years six nations when it looked like he couldnt get it out of his pants quick enough.

Shocked

vomit

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Poorfour on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:33 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:When did tmo s come in? If it were before then that's barnes' mistake not going up to review. Not sure he had the option though.

Strictly speaking, it's the referee's decision whether he goes to the TMO or not. If he had a clear view of the incident - and it sounds like he did here - then there's no requirement to use the TMO.

Barnes has consistently been one of the better users of the TMO. He was one of the first refs to formally use the big screen to review incidents and be able to use the TMO as confirmation of what he'd seen rather than rely on the TMO's input. During RWC15 he also started instructing the TMO to review possible foul play incidents while allowing play to continue. Seems unlikely to me that he'd not use the TMO if it was available, unless he was sure of what he'd already seen.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by marty2086 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:35 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:By contrast when Sexon lay under the ball against Wales he scrambled to get the card out straight away.

He didn't he lay under the ball Davies rolled on top of him, not to mention the 3 times before that Wales had done something similar without a card

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:36 pm

Cheers poor. I know for a while on tries they weren't allowed. Just wondered if it were the same for foul.play.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:37 pm

Though it can be over used tmo has helped get the right decisions more often. Like wallers try in the final a few years back. Sorry couldn't resist.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:41 pm

Heaslip admitted kneeing McCaw but denied making contact with the head. I think a red if the knee was to the shoulder is soft enough and Im not sure most refs would have given it. Barnes couldnt get the red out quick enough though. It seems to me that he was affected by the 2007 debacle and he has subsequently admitted as much himself. I think he was over compensating for this. He has also stated that McCaw is the one player he admired more than anyone. Who knows if this influenced his decision to completely ignore the obvious McCaw infringement.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/85445227/wayne-barnes-admits-fallout-from-2007-world-cup-refereeing-shocker-with-all-blacks-affected-me


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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:42 pm

marty2086 wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:By contrast when Sexon lay under the ball against Wales he scrambled to get the card out straight away.

He didn't he lay under the ball Davies rolled on top of him, not to mention the 3 times before that Wales had done something similar without a card

Exactly, my point is usually when you try to kill a ball you are usually on top of it. He wasnt he was underneath it. Davies had the ball and he was on top of Sexton. You cant be expected to roll away if you arent on top.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 04 May 2017, 4:56 pm

Lol.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by aucklandlaurie on Thu 04 May 2017, 5:10 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Heaslip admitted kneeing McCaw but denied making contact with the head. I think a red if the knee was to the shoulder is soft enough and Im not sure most refs would have given it. Barnes couldnt get the red out quick enough though. It seems to me that he was affected by the 2007 debacle and he has subsequently admitted as much himself. I think he was over compensating for this. He has also stated that McCaw is the one player he admired more than anyone. Who knows if this influenced his decision to completely ignore the obvious McCaw infringement.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/85445227/wayne-barnes-admits-fallout-from-2007-world-cup-refereeing-shocker-with-all-blacks-affected-me

 Then again if he never actually said it, then I doubt it influenced his decision either.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by rodders on Fri 05 May 2017, 10:44 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:By contrast when Sexon lay under the ball against Wales he scrambled to get the card out straight away.

He didn't he lay under the ball Davies rolled on top of him, not to mention the 3 times before that Wales had done something similar without a card

Exactly, my point is usually when you try to kill a ball you are usually on top of it. He wasnt he was underneath it. Davies had the ball and he was on top of Sexton. You cant be expected to roll away if you arent on top.

He's lucky Davies didn't punch him when he was down there he'd have been shown red...
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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Cyril on Fri 05 May 2017, 11:15 am

Barnes is probably the best ref around at the moment. Ireland need to start producing good officials before they criticise others. The standard of their referees is probably the worst in world rugby.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 05 May 2017, 11:17 am

Actually the best around at the minute is Angus Gardner and Barnes is a joke even the English fans are starting to realise how bad he is

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 05 May 2017, 11:29 am

The refs at the top are all very good. A quick Google search will find complaints about them all.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 05 May 2017, 11:52 am

marty2086 wrote:Actually the best around at the minute is Angus Gardner and Barnes is a joke even the English fans are starting to realise how bad he is

100% agree. Gardener is reffing at a much higher standard to Barnes. English fans dont have to put up with Barnes at test level and are biased anyway.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 05 May 2017, 11:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:The refs at the top are all very good. A quick Google search will find complaints about them all.

but no where near as much controversy as there is around Barnes.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 05 May 2017, 11:55 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Heaslip admitted kneeing McCaw but denied making contact with the head. I think a red if the knee was to the shoulder is soft enough and Im not sure most refs would have given it.
Don't think referees have ever been instructed only to give red cards for knees to the head. Simon Shaw got one in 2004 in NZ (overturned later on a technicality).


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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 05 May 2017, 11:57 am

I find it hard to discern where the wumming and true belief merges on Barnes.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:03 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:Heaslip admitted kneeing McCaw but denied making contact with the head. I think a red if the knee was to the shoulder is soft enough and Im not sure most refs would have given it.
Don't think referees have ever been instructed only to give red cards for knees to the head. Simon Shaw got one in 2004 in NZ (overturned later on a technicality).


I agree you are probably right however when it isnt the the head I think refs are more likely to be more lenient on it.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I find it hard to discern where the wumming and true belief merges on Barnes.

Likewise its hard to believe you really believe him to be a good referee contrary to endless evidence which suggests otherwise.

He has literally refereed all of Ireland's most dire games of the last 10 years.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Taylorman on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:12 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I find it hard to discern where the wumming and true belief merges on Barnes.

Likewise its hard to believe you really believe him to be a good referee contrary to endless evidence which suggests otherwise.

He has literally refereed all of Ireland's most dire games of the last 10 years.

Oh well, do what we were told...get over it.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by ebop on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:21 pm

Taylorman wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I find it hard to discern where the wumming and true belief merges on Barnes.

Likewise its hard to believe you really believe him to be a good referee contrary to endless evidence which suggests otherwise.

He has literally refereed all of Ireland's most dire games of the last 10 years.

Oh well, do what we were told...get over it.
It's a good point Tman

Guns, you just need to build a bridge mate
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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:31 pm

I think you're just bored guns.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:35 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Actually the best around at the minute is Angus Gardner and Barnes is a joke even the English fans are starting to realise how bad he is

100% agree. Gardener is reffing at a much higher standard to Barnes. English fans dont have to put up with Barnes at test level and are biased anyway.

Many of them are fed up with him in the AP even when their team isn't playing

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Poorfour on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:41 pm

According to this Wikipedia page (which may be out of date but is the most recent I could find) the elite refs panel is chosen by a group of selectors chaired by one Steve Hilditch who is, erm, Chairman of the IRFU.

So at least one Irishman rates Wayne Barnes, and has done consistently for some time.


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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:45 pm

I like how you link an article that states ' he was a member of the IRB International Referee Selection Panel between 2004 and 2011'

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:50 pm

As an aside to the sillyness I do think we'd all benefit in the leagues getting their heads together to exchange refs for a few games a season, including sh if possible. Would benefit both officials and players.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 05 May 2017, 1:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:As an aside to the sillyness I do think we'd all benefit in the leagues getting their heads together to exchange refs for a few games a season, including sh if possible. Would benefit both officials and players.

The problem is cost which goes up and then who takes on the burden of it

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 05 May 2017, 1:05 pm

Super rugby and the prem ate making money. Not sure on the profit levels of pro 12 and the french though. If it benefits the refs themselves you'd suspect the unions may want to help out.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 05 May 2017, 1:15 pm

Are Super Rugby making money though?

But you have touched on part of the problem, some have a bit more cash than others laying around so should they cover all or more of the costs?

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 05 May 2017, 1:24 pm

Just read an article.on nz herald saying they're making stacks.of cash through tv so my guess is yes. In my ideal they just wouldn't be part of it if they didn't want to.contribute.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Fri 05 May 2017, 2:07 pm

Poorfour wrote:According to this Wikipedia page (which may be out of date but is the most recent I could find) the elite refs panel is chosen by a group of selectors chaired by one Steve Hilditch who is, erm, Chairman of the IRFU.

So at least one Irishman rates Wayne Barnes, and has done consistently for some time.


The panel of assessors that assess every referees performance is made up of three former English refs, 1 Irish, 1 French and 2 Aussies. Hmmmm

The French ref on the panel has previously accused British refs of collusion.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/referee-alleges-conspiracy-1588784.html

No wonder Barnes has lasted so long.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Poorfour on Fri 05 May 2017, 4:06 pm

So an article from 1995, in which a Frenchman accuses all four British Isles assessors (including the Irish one) plus the NZ and Australian ones of colluding against him and his countryman is somehow supposed to be evidence of bias towards Wayne Barnes? Who was 16 at the time and wouldn't make his International debut until 2006?

Well, I admire your brass balls, but that is a spectacularly desperate attempt at wumming.

E- Must try harder.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Taylorman on Sat 06 May 2017, 2:44 am

ebop wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
GunsGermsV2 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I find it hard to discern where the wumming and true belief merges on Barnes.

Likewise its hard to believe you really believe him to be a good referee contrary to endless evidence which suggests otherwise.

He has literally refereed all of Ireland's most dire games of the last 10 years.

Oh well, do what we were told...get over it.
It's a good point Tman

Guns, you just need to build a bridge mate

It's a tenuous link stating that Barnes is making up for his 2007 refereeing of NZ by unfavouring Ireland. I mean, really? All because Barnes rated McCaw highly? Whew...what a complex web of thinking Barnes must have.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Gwlad on Mon 08 May 2017, 5:41 am

NZ even expect the referees to Rispict them, always have done. McCaw had to have special treatment for going off his feet and handling int he ruck otherwise he wouldn't have been half a successful as he was. No surprise that NZ has hardly produced any referees of note, the laws and rules don't apply in the same way as they do for normal folks.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Taylorman on Mon 08 May 2017, 6:15 am

Gwlad wrote:NZ even expect the referees to Rispict them, always have done. McCaw had to have special treatment for going off his feet and handling int he ruck otherwise he wouldn't have been half a successful as he was. No surprise that NZ has hardly produced any referees of note, the laws and rules don't apply in the same way as they do for normal folks.

We're too busy playing the game to be refereeing, too busy supplying the rest of the world quality players and coaches.

Now you want top refs as well?

Ok, will see what I can do, might take a few days though, things are abot slow at the moment. thumbsup

Taylorman

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 08 May 2017, 10:14 am

Not another Steve Walsh please.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

Post by Cyril on Mon 08 May 2017, 10:34 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:Not another Steve Walsh please.
Agreed. He became Australian once he sobered up though.

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Re: Is reffing at the top level becoming impossible?

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