England vs Ireland ODIs

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England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 05 May 2017, 8:30 am

And so the build up to the yawnsome cup starts.

Squads:

Ireland
EJG Morgan*WTS Porterfield*, A Balbirnie, PKD Chase, GH Dockrell, EC Joyce, AR McBrine, BJ McCarthy, TJ Murtagh, KJ O'Brien, NJ O'Brien†, PR Stirling, SR Thompson, GC Wilson, CA Young, W Boyd Rankin

England
EJG Morgan*, EC Joyce,, MM Ali, JM Bairstow†, JT Ball, SW Billings, BM Duckett, ST Finn, AD Hales, LE Plunkett, AU Rashid, JE Root, JJ Roy, DJ Willey, MA Wood

Woakes, Stokes and Buttler are still playing beach cricket with their celebrity pals, whilst KP will no doubt be joining the Sky commentary team to remind us that he is still available should England want to win a trophy and that he absolutely didnt "turn down" the IPL to avoid the humilation of attracting no bids.

England have included Duckett in their squad despite him not being in the CT squad. Presumably with Roy having returned home early he will play instead. Bairstow hit a huge century in the week and has a great chance to ask further questions about the keepers spot.
Finn is the other player not in the CT squad, so presumably there as first reserve rather than likely to play.

With the two seamer all rounders out England will have to sacrifice some batting depth to keep 6 bowling options.


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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 05 May 2017, 8:51 am

Thanks for the thread, Goose.

Hope Balbirnie plays and comes off for Ireland. He did well in the World Cup and was unlucky to be released by Middlesex, injuries denying him much of an opportunity at Lord's.

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 05 May 2017, 11:05 am

Ireland batting first, good first over for Joyce.

England have taken a risk in going with just 5 bowlers, and perhaps surprisingly given Billings the gloves. No Ali, does that signal a shift to a 1 spinner policy for the CT?

Guilfords man Balbirnie is playing.

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by jimbohammers on Fri 05 May 2017, 12:52 pm

Bit of a waste of time these games aren't they?

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 05 May 2017, 1:12 pm

jimbohammers wrote:Bit of a waste of time these games aren't they?

Yeah, the players would get the better opposition in the domestic cup. But it fulfills the "moral obligation" to pretend anyone cares about Iruish cricket and gives the coaches a chance to work directly with the player.

Hard to beleive how hapless Ireland are aginst any kind of slow bowling. Maybe it was a legit excuse for their showing against Afghanisatn after all.

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by VTR on Fri 05 May 2017, 2:51 pm

Well that was a terrible game. Ireland are under a lot of pressure now to perform at Lord's - a similar performance there could set them back years in terms of being given opportunities to play and their case for becoming a Test nation

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 05 May 2017, 7:42 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Ireland batting first, good first over for Joyce.

England have taken a risk in going with just 5 bowlers, and perhaps surprisingly given Billings the gloves. No Ali, does that signal a shift to a 1 spinner policy for the CT?

Guilfords man Balbirnie is playing.

Only seen the scorecard but looks like a hideous game. As the crowd only saw 53 overs of the 100 on offer, they should ask for half their money back!

With the benefit of hindsight, not that big a risk taken by England in going with the bowlers they did. Pleased to see Balbirnie top scored for the Irish although that has to be taken in context.

All in all, very disappointing and probably not much of a preparation for England.

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by KP_fan on Sat 06 May 2017, 5:07 pm

I thought that was  a T20 and almost missed recognizing that was a ODI, until i looked at the scorecard a second time Shocked
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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 07 May 2017, 2:11 pm

This game showing just how important buttler and stokes are to the middle order. Personally think we miss Moeen's batting too my starting xi for the CT would be

Roy
Hales
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Rashid
Willey
Wood

Don't think 5 seam options are needed - especially when they're all a bit same-y
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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by westisbest on Sun 07 May 2017, 11:28 pm

Didn't see any of it, but heard Ireland were dreadful.

Shame.
Taking a backward step or two.

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 08 May 2017, 8:43 am

westisbest wrote:Didn't see any of it, but heard Ireland were dreadful.

Shame.
Taking a backward step or two.

We knew that already from the kicking Afghanistan gave them.


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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by VTR on Mon 08 May 2017, 8:48 am

An improved performance second time out from Ireland - still a quite comprehensive defeat though all told, so is this really enough to convince that they should be playing at a higher level?

Personally I would say not, especially as most of the better players must be within 2-3 years of retirement

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 08 May 2017, 8:59 am

VTR wrote:An improved performance second time out from Ireland - still a quite comprehensive defeat though all told, so is this really enough to convince that they should be playing at a higher level?

Personally I would say not, especially as most of the better players must be within 2-3 years of retirement

They're certainly a team in transition - but I don't think they should be denied the opportunity (as all teams go through ups and downs)

If we are going to continue with this ludicrous test status thing, then Afghanistan need to be given it asap - I'd argue they're on a par with the likes of West Indies/Bangladesh already
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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 08 May 2017, 9:15 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:This game showing just how important buttler and stokes are to the middle order. Personally think we miss Moeen's batting too my starting xi for the CT would be

Roy
Hales
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Rashid
Willey
Wood

Don't think 5 seam options are needed - especially when they're all a bit same-y

I dont see how youc an leave Bairstow out, hes the most in form batsman of all the England players this season and going back to the limited chances he got in 50 overs cricket in the winter.
I really dont see an issue with Englands middle order either...its only Billings who struggled, the middle order is where the runs were scored in this game and the previous one it had already been won. With Stokes and Buttler back its stronger and deeper. Id be much more concerned about Roys form...he had a poor IPL and hasnt made runs in either innings against Ireland.

With Ali ... his record for England isnt great, and he really struggled through the winter limited overs games ( 2 wickets and 134 runs in 9 ODIS, 3 wickets and 3 runs in 3 T20s) ) and into this season to make much of an impact. The call really is down to whether England feel they can make do with Root as a support spinner. He was certainly very effective against Ireland ...but they do seem utterly incapable of handling any kind of slow bowling. Its the question they had in teh winter ...do we keep picking spinners we know arent good enough (and Moeen really isnt) just to fit a model having to have to in a side or do we actually just pick our best bowlers? Moeen doesnt justify a place on his batting alone as just a bit part bowler, and certainly not on recent form.

Is there a need for 5 samey seamers? Nope. Although there is some variation with height pace and a left armer in the options. They have of course been making do with 4 for these games and carrying the risk of only 5 front line bowlers with Root contributing the support. Again ... is there a need for options for options sake or can youy risk just bowling your best bowlers a lot?

With Stokes and Woakes available again of course theres much more scope to have 5 seamers and still retain the batting depth ... the problem being that Bairstows place (on the assumption he isnt going to keep which given Billings had the gloves ahead of him seems set) would be filled and youve lost your form bat to make way for another all rounder...or you drop just go with 4 seamers.

Roy, Hales, Root, Morgan, Bairstow, Stokes, Buttler, Woakes, Willey, Rashid, Wood

But maybe that puts too much on Stokes as a key batter fielder and bowler? He seems to love it though, and its certainly why he was the biggest draw in the IPL auction. Moeen or another seamer for Bairstow would weaken the middle order and whilst relievings ome load on Stokes for bowling would put more pressure on him to consitently make runs with the bat rather than hit occassional big scores. The question is how much do they need that extra bowler for security against better opposition.

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by VTR on Mon 08 May 2017, 9:18 am

Are they in transition though, genuinely am not up on whether they have young players coming through on the batting side. I'm sure I read that the top 6 was the same as played in the 2011 WC win over England.

Afghanistan would be a better shout in terms of results/current ability. Am not sure many teams would be up for a tour there though!

I suppose Test status gives funding, which could help the game develop but I would seriously question how many games a new side would get to play

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 08 May 2017, 9:55 am

They are 15th in the T20 rankings below Hong Kong. Talk of test status is an insult to the game.

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 08 May 2017, 10:02 am

Well without wishing to re hash old debates, but the fact they can't get a simple league with promotions/relegations throughout the whole cricket structure in like a 3/4 year cycle where teams play each other home and away is ridiculous
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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by KP_fan on Mon 08 May 2017, 11:49 am

I have following observations on Ireland

--teams like Ireland fall back if they do not get constant high quality games 

--they seem to be stagnating  with not much new talent coming in.....same names are around for the better part of last decade

teams like Afghanistan are producing more fresh talent because cricket has caught the imagination  passion of masses 

team like UAE can employ FC and U-19 cricketers from Pak, Ind and Lanka by bringing them on work permits and visas...while Ire has los their best batsman and fastest bowler to Eng Sad
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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 08 May 2017, 11:52 am

Gooseberry wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:This game showing just how important buttler and stokes are to the middle order. Personally think we miss Moeen's batting too my starting xi for the CT would be

Roy
Hales
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Stokes
Ali
Woakes
Rashid
Willey
Wood

Don't think 5 seam options are needed - especially when they're all a bit same-y

I dont see how youc an leave Bairstow out, hes the most in form batsman of all the England players this season and going back to the limited chances he got in 50 overs cricket in the winter.
I really dont see an issue with Englands middle order either...its only Billings who struggled, the middle order is where the runs were scored in this game and the previous one it had already been won. With Stokes and Buttler back its stronger and deeper. Id be much more concerned about Roys form...he had a poor IPL and hasnt made runs in either innings against Ireland.

With Ali ... his record for England isnt great, and he really struggled through the winter limited overs games ( 2 wickets and 134 runs in 9 ODIS, 3 wickets and 3 runs in 3 T20s) ) and into this season to make much of an impact. The call really is down to whether England feel they can make do with Root as a support spinner. He was certainly very effective against Ireland ...but they do seem utterly incapable of handling any kind of slow bowling. Its the question they had in teh winter ...do we keep picking spinners we know arent good enough (and Moeen really isnt) just to fit a model having to have to in a side or do we actually just pick our best bowlers? Moeen doesnt justify a place on his batting alone as just a bit part bowler, and certainly not on recent form.

Is there a need for 5 samey seamers? Nope. Although there is some variation with height pace and a left armer in the options. They have of course been making do with 4 for these games and carrying the risk of only 5 front line bowlers with Root contributing the support. Again ... is there a need for options for options sake or can youy risk just bowling your best bowlers a lot?

With Stokes and Woakes available again of course theres much more scope to have 5 seamers and still retain the batting depth ... the problem being that Bairstows place (on the assumption he isnt going to keep which given Billings had the gloves ahead of him seems set) would be filled and youve lost your form bat to make way for another all rounder...or you drop just go with 4 seamers.

Roy, Hales, Root, Morgan, Bairstow, Stokes, Buttler, Woakes, Willey, Rashid, Wood  

But maybe that puts too much on Stokes as a key batter fielder and bowler? He seems to love it though, and its certainly why he was the biggest draw in the IPL auction. Moeen or another seamer for Bairstow would weaken the middle order and whilst relievings ome load on Stokes for bowling would put more pressure on him to consitently make runs with the bat rather than hit occassional big scores. The question is how much do they need that extra bowler for security against better opposition.

You make good points Goose - and to be honest Bairstow for Moeen would make sense on many levels. I personally prefer not having Root as our backup 6th option, in a side that has Stokes/Rashid (both liable to go for a few), and for me Moeen brings a really good balance to the side providing that extra bowling option and batting depth too
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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 08 May 2017, 12:06 pm

KP_fan wrote:I have following observations on Ireland

--teams like Ireland fall back if they do not get constant high quality games 

--they seem to be stagnating  with not much new talent coming in.....same names are around for the better part of last decade

teams like Afghanistan are producing more fresh talent because cricket has caught the imagination  passion of masses 

team like UAE can employ FC and U-19 cricketers from Pak, Ind and Lanka by bringing them on work permits and visas...while Ire has los their best batsman and fastest bowler to Eng Sad

Ireland are coming up to a real lull potentially as the top-class group of players they've had for a decade ago - in some respects the ICC have missed the bus on them, like they did with Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe and Bangladesh who all had stronger teams 5 years prior to test status than they did for the 5 years after gaining it.

OTOH, there has been a massive jump in the numbers of young cricketers playing the game in Ireland inspired by the ODI team's success, which will hopefully bear fruit in terms of new talent for the national side - unfortunately it's probably going to take another 5 years or so to bring them through
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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by JDizzle on Mon 08 May 2017, 6:25 pm

Is David Willey actually good though? He swings it early on, but does he offer anything after that? Seems very much like cannon fodder after that for good bats, and his batting is doesn't look good enough at International level - no better than Plunkett's.

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 09 May 2017, 9:26 am

To be fair all the seamers are in the good not great class and could be interchanged easily.
Stokes gets in on his all round ability, and woakes the next best bat. Woods speed gives home dimension England are missing whilst still not being a true who.
I guess Willeys name tends to be next on the list simply because hes a left armer. If we are worried about England being one dimensional then picking 4 or 5 right armers wont help that. But you can also Adonis he really one of the 4 best seamers available? Probably not.
So yeah there's a case either way with Plunkett. As there probably is for Ball too.
England would talk this up as a strength, their squad pretty much all deserve starting places ... there aren't any real place fillers (although billings really jasnt produced to his ability in an england shirt)

On that note Morgan's comments about Bairstow being a super sub do suggest he's not yet done enough to demand a starting place in their ideal first 11. Being able to leave a guy like him out in the form he's in bodes well for England and again underlines their strength is in depth as much as it is in headline grabbers like stokes.
Having so many all rounders too doesn't leave them vulnerable to becoming unbalanced through injuries.

The only real weaknesses are the lack of genuine strike bowlers and quality spin. You can see why there's a level of expectation on them ahead of the CT

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 09 May 2017, 9:58 am

It's tough on Bairstow if so, but ultimately England have the best batting stats since the 2014 world cup - the only team scoring at above 6 runs per over, most scores of 300+ and most scores of 350+ in that timeframe of any team in the world.
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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 10 May 2017, 2:04 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:It's tough on Bairstow if so, but ultimately England have the best batting stats since the 2014 world cup - the only team scoring at above 6 runs per over, most scores of 300+ and most scores of 350+ in that timeframe of any team in the world.

For that period
Mchs Runs BatAv Wkt Best BoAv Ec
Moeen 49 952 25.05 41 3/32 51.12 5.05
Bairstow 18 477 43.36
Root 8 3/52 53.12 5.44

Id argue that thats more likely to continue or improve further with Bairstow in the side, if you can live without Moeens part time bowling. A role Root almost matches him in.
In games where England feel their seamers will carry the bulk of the work I'd rather have Bairstow in the side than Moeen whos not really contributing much in either discpline

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by JDizzle on Wed 10 May 2017, 6:24 pm

It's a bit of a red herring just purely looking at batting average to determine who should play out of JB and Moeen though. I say that because, batting 7, how many balls is he actually going to face? The smaller the sample size that the difference between batting averages because less of a factor and strike rate becomes the more crucial aspect, on which they are more equal (96 vs 93).

So no doubt that will come into the calculation too.

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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 10 May 2017, 6:32 pm

For me, England have been the best odi side since the world cup, and I don't think tinkering with what's worked on the eve of the tournament because someone scored some runs against Ireland is what's needed. Bairstow will be a fine backup if injury or ridiculous loss of form happens
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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 10 May 2017, 6:33 pm

Also slowly getting back aboard the Ballance bus over here
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Re: England vs Ireland ODIs

Post by robbo277 on Fri 19 May 2017, 9:14 am

Gooseberry wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:It's tough on Bairstow if so, but ultimately England have the best batting stats since the 2014 world cup - the only team scoring at above 6 runs per over, most scores of 300+ and most scores of 350+ in that timeframe of any team in the world.

For that period
         Mchs Runs  BatAv Wkt  Best  BoAv  Ec
Moeen  49 952   25.05  41 3/32 51.12  5.05
Bairstow 18  477 43.36  
Root                            8    3/52  53.12   5.44

Id argue that thats more likely to continue or improve further with Bairstow in the side, if you can live without Moeens part time bowling. A role Root almost matches him in.
In games where England feel their seamers will carry the bulk of the work I'd rather have Bairstow in the side than Moeen whos not really contributing much in either discpline

Moeen has bowled 415 overs, that's 8.47 overs per game. He often bowls out and going at 5.05 is no disgrace in the modern game.

Root has bowled 78 overs and, if that's over the same number of games as Moeen, that's under 2 overs a game. He's only likely to come on in turning conditions. If you relied on him for 10, batsmen would target him and I'd imagine he'd be going at more than 6.

You could argue that even if Root went at 6's for his 10 overs, that would only be an extra 10 runs a game, and Bairstow averages 18 more than Moeen, but would Bairstow average the same coming in at 7 with less time to play himself in? Would Root going for runs at one end in the middle overs take the pressure of the batsmen at the other end, allowing partnerships to develop and causing England's death bowlers to suffer?

I think we should be happy we have one too many batsman who genuinely deserves a place in the team, and use that competition to drive up standards. I don't think we should break our structure for Bairstow though.

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