Residency

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Residency

Post by Allty on Wed May 10, 2017 8:36 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39868065

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Re: Residency

Post by munkian on Thu May 11, 2017 11:49 am

LondonTiger wrote:
munkian wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I think Wales only lose Francis, Faletau and North from their 6Ns side, but not sure.

Nope, North's  Mother is Welsh, he's also lived in Wales since he was two.

Mother saves him, but residency doe not. this was purely talking about birth or parent.

Got ya.

I don't really have an issue with residency for players from the UK though to be honest.
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Re: Residency

Post by LondonTiger on Thu May 11, 2017 11:59 am

Neither do I, but it is hard to have flexible rules.

Still find it strange that a player born in the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man could represent any of England, Scotland and Wales.

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Re: Residency

Post by munkian on Thu May 11, 2017 12:00 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Neither do I, but it is hard to have flexible rules.

Still find it strange that a player born in the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man could represent any of England, Scotland and Wales.

Same rules as being in the British forces too.

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Re: Residency

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu May 11, 2017 12:06 pm

The Granny one is tough, when Maitland played for Scotland he cited his grandad dragging him out of his bed to watch Scotland games at ungodly hours as a big factor in choosing to represent Scotland.

Similar to Max and Thom Evans who's grandfather wanted them to play for Scotland.

"Because we both went to boarding school together the time we spent with our Grandad was on a Sunday, Our parents lived in Portugal, so we spent our Sundays with our grandparents and any rugby games that were on, he'd be part of it with us and he'd be a proud Scot, so he'd support anyone who played against England. I know it will probably be quite emotional come Saturday, knowing he'd be very proud upstairs for both his grandsons."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/12/max-thom-evans-scotland-six-nations-france
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Re: Residency

Post by marty2086 on Thu May 11, 2017 12:32 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The Granny one is tough, when Maitland played for Scotland he cited his grandad dragging him out of his bed to watch Scotland games at ungodly hours as a big factor in choosing to represent Scotland.

Similar to Max and Thom Evans who's grandfather wanted them to play for Scotland.

"Because we both went to boarding school together the time we spent with our Grandad was on a Sunday, Our parents lived in Portugal, so we spent our Sundays with our grandparents and any rugby games that were on, he'd be part of it with us and he'd be a proud Scot, so he'd support anyone who played against England. I know it will probably be quite emotional come Saturday, knowing he'd be very proud upstairs for both his grandsons."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/12/max-thom-evans-scotland-six-nations-france

The whole thing isn't as clear cut as some like to make out, there are some who don't qualify for a country in any form but still can feel a connection or affinity to it because that's their ancestry yet someone born there can feel nothing

Nationality is a personal thing and the residency rules are a bureaucratic attempt to distil it into a wide ranging yet limited set of rules, some mercenaries will slip through the cracks no matter the rules and some who would exclude people who would nothing more than to wear a certain countries jersey.

In Ireland I think in the current batch we have been lucky to get guys like Stander and Payne who have bought into the clubs and country

At the weekend Ulster said goodbye to Ruan Pienaar, the guy will be seen as a South African yet he's becoming a citizen and after he's finished in France he and his family will live in Belfast. Is he still a S. African? Is he Irish/British? A mix of everything? Hopefully though his kids will be as good as him and pull on the white of Ulster and green of Ireland Fingers Crossed

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Re: Residency

Post by LordDowlais on Thu May 11, 2017 12:41 pm

Where people are born should not come into it. Otherwise you could get the best rugby player in the world who was born in Outer Mongolia, moved to Wales when he was a month old with his parents, yet we would never see him play rugby on the international stage because Outer Mongolia do not have a rugby team. Yet he has lived in another country all his life bar birth.

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Re: Residency

Post by LondonTiger on Thu May 11, 2017 12:54 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The Granny one is tough, when Maitland played for Scotland he cited his grandad dragging him out of his bed to watch Scotland games at ungodly hours as a big factor in choosing to represent Scotland.

Similar to Max and Thom Evans who's grandfather wanted them to play for Scotland.

"Because we both went to boarding school together the time we spent with our Grandad was on a Sunday, Our parents lived in Portugal, so we spent our Sundays with our grandparents and any rugby games that were on, he'd be part of it with us and he'd be a proud Scot, so he'd support anyone who played against England. I know it will probably be quite emotional come Saturday, knowing he'd be very proud upstairs for both his grandsons."

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/12/max-thom-evans-scotland-six-nations-france

The whole thing isn't as clear cut as some like to make out, there are some who don't qualify for a country in any form but still can feel a connection or affinity to it because that's their ancestry yet someone born there can feel nothing

Nationality is a personal thing and the residency rules are a bureaucratic attempt to distil it into a wide ranging yet limited set of rules, some mercenaries will slip through the cracks no matter the rules and some who would exclude people who would nothing more than to wear a certain countries jersey.

In Ireland I think in the current batch we have been lucky to get guys like Stander and Payne who have bought into the clubs and country

At the weekend Ulster said goodbye to Ruan Pienaar, the guy will be seen as a South African yet he's becoming a citizen and after he's finished in France he and his family will live in Belfast. Is he still a S. African? Is he Irish/British? A mix of everything? Hopefully though his kids will be as good as him and pull on the white of Ulster and green of Ireland Fingers Crossed


Bryan Habana was intimating yesterday that he will stay in Europe when he stops playing rugby, and suggested that the exodus of players from SA will not end any time soon. His reasoning was that while financial security was important, physical security was an even bigger factor.

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Re: Residency

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu May 11, 2017 12:59 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Where people are born should not come into it. Otherwise you could get the best rugby player in the world who was born in Outer Mongolia, moved to Wales when he was a month old with his parents, yet we would never see him play rugby on the international stage because Outer Mongolia do not have a rugby team. Yet he has lived in another country all his life bar birth.

Aye. Similarly you have Heaslip born in Israel (ranked 58th in the World), Jerome Kaino born in American Samoa (103rd in the World)
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Re: Residency

Post by Gooseberry on Thu May 11, 2017 1:05 pm

LondonTiger wrote: physical security was an even bigger factor.

Says the guy who acts as a target for 20 stone men to run into him for a living

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Re: Residency

Post by LordDowlais on Thu May 11, 2017 1:20 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
LondonTiger wrote: physical security was an even bigger factor.

Says the guy who acts as a target for 20 stone men to run into him for a living

It's a bit different to being shot at. Shocked

Some of my family and friends went out to South Africa on the last Lions tour out there, 2009 ? Anyway, my uncle was in the lobby of his hotel, when a couple of locals came in, escorted him outside with a concealed gun and forced him to empty his pockets. This is a true story, I kid you not.

South Africa is a beautiful country, but the crime out there is rife. It really spoils the country. I have been to Port Elizabeth on business in my younger days, I was told to not venture out on my own, and always keep my wits about me, it can be quite scary there.

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Re: Residency

Post by miaow on Thu May 11, 2017 1:24 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
miaow wrote:...why is no one talking about Sam Burgess as a possible injury replacement for the Lions?...

This is entirely the wrong thread for such a discussion but I've often thought about this. I reckon Eddie Jones would have loved Sam Burgess

I suspect he would have put him at centre, just as Lancaster did, because Jones did dabble with Burrell in Australia, and has also favoured Te'o. It's possible Mike Ford could have got Burgess operating as a forward and that might also have suited Jones, given he used Haskell to monster the breakdown.

There's no doubt Burgess prefers playing League, but I'm sure he would have fancied being part of England's tour to Australia, and potentially part of a Lions tour.

He should have switched codes earlier, or stayed longer.

I think that's spot on. Whilst my comment was made tongue in cheek- frankly the thread wasn't really going anywhere so it's not as if I brought the tone down in doing so- there is an element of him being conspicuous in his absence.

I don't think he should have come sooner, but undoubtedly he should have stayed longer. The RFU and England Rugby as a whole mismanaged the whole situation terribly, making him a 'special' case from the off in their initial desire to buy him outright from league, to hamfisting him into the England set up for the World Cup, before finally hanging him out to dry in the aftermath. It's no surprise he returned as swiftly as he did given the lack of systemic support he received.

Is he a big loss for England and NH rugby? Possibly. It's hard to say. He could have been England's SBW, or he could have been their Willy Mason- and, in the end, he was the latter.

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Re: Residency

Post by miaow on Thu May 11, 2017 1:25 pm

Gwlad wrote:p1ss poor banter for sure


You know you're struggling when you can't even think of your own insult!

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Re: Residency

Post by LordDowlais on Thu May 11, 2017 1:25 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:Aye. Similarly you have Heaslip born in Israel (ranked 58th in the World), Jerome Kaino born in American Samoa (103rd in the World)

Exactly, they both lived in Ireland and New Zealand since they were babies. Circumstances like this should be made exception to any rules.

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Re: Residency

Post by The Great Aukster on Thu May 11, 2017 2:02 pm

Players should be able to qualify for the country they now reside in even if they've been capped already but not selected in the last 5 years. That would be more in keeping with citizenship.

The real problem with qualification is large nations capping players once to stop them being capped elsewhere, so if a nation does not select a capped player for five years, then that player should be available for any other nation he does qualify for.

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Re: Residency

Post by marty2086 on Thu May 11, 2017 2:06 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Players should be able to qualify for the country they now reside in even if they've been capped already but not selected in the last 5 years. That would be more in keeping with citizenship.

The real problem with qualification is large nations capping players once to stop them being capped elsewhere, so if a nation does not select a capped player for five years, then that player should be available for any other nation he does qualify for.

You could open the whole thing up to a real mercenary trade then, if a player does well for say Fiji whats to stop a big union waving a pay check in front of them not to play for 5 years and play in their country to requalify?

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Re: Residency

Post by LondonTiger on Thu May 11, 2017 2:10 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Players should be able to qualify for the country they now reside in even if they've been capped already but not selected in the last 5 years. That would be more in keeping with citizenship.

Would not cause me too much of a problem. In passing you mention citizenship - and I would love for that to be a requirement too. Sure t would need some tweaking for the countries within the UK, but I feel that most of us want players representing our country to have a real stake in that country. I do not wish to prevent players from less economically developed countries playing in the richer leagues to provide a secure future for their families (and even villages) but would like players to have a real, palpable connection to the country for which they wish to represent.

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Re: Residency

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu May 11, 2017 2:26 pm

See Max Clark has turned down Wales as he wants to play for England. Welsh mother and Welsh born, makes a change from the usual choice.

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Re: Residency

Post by Gooseberry on Thu May 11, 2017 2:29 pm

miaow wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
miaow wrote:...why is no one talking about Sam Burgess as a possible injury replacement for the Lions?...

This is entirely the wrong thread for such a discussion but I've often thought about this. I reckon Eddie Jones would have loved Sam Burgess

I suspect he would have put him at centre, just as Lancaster did, because Jones did dabble with Burrell in Australia, and has also favoured Te'o. It's possible Mike Ford could have got Burgess operating as a forward and that might also have suited Jones, given he used Haskell to monster the breakdown.

There's no doubt Burgess prefers playing League, but I'm sure he would have fancied being part of England's tour to Australia, and potentially part of a Lions tour.

He should have switched codes earlier, or stayed longer.

I think that's spot on. Whilst my comment was made tongue in cheek- frankly the thread wasn't really going anywhere so it's not as if I brought the tone down in doing so- there is an element of him being conspicuous in his absence.

I don't think he should have come sooner, but undoubtedly he should have stayed longer. The RFU and England Rugby as a whole mismanaged the whole situation terribly, making him a 'special' case from the off in their initial desire to buy him outright from league, to hamfisting him into the England set up for the World Cup, before finally hanging him out to dry in the aftermath. It's no surprise he returned as swiftly as he did given the lack of systemic support he received.

Is he a big loss for England and NH rugby? Possibly. It's hard to say. He could have been England's SBW, or he could have been their Willy Mason- and, in the end, he was the latter.


Started a joke but yes its quite fair.

The guy most responsible for pushing Burgess even after he'd been injured and failed to make an impact at club level is now of course one of the Lions coaches who would probably most want to select him had he not been driven out by being picked when it was quite clear he wasnt ready.

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Re: Residency

Post by Gooseberry on Thu May 11, 2017 2:32 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:See Max Clark has turned down Wales as he wants to play for England. Welsh mother and Welsh born, makes a change from the usual choice.

To be fair hes already an England player and Bath academy product.

That said its a heck of a call for him to turn down Wales at this stage in his career. It does seem to be as much a decision of principle as much as he truely believing he has a strong chance of caps for England.

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Re: Residency

Post by munkian on Thu May 11, 2017 2:39 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:See Max Clark has turned down Wales as he wants to play for England. Welsh mother and Welsh born, makes a change from the usual choice.

To be fair hes already an England player and Bath academy product.

That said its a heck of a call for him to turn down Wales at this stage in his career. It does seem to be as much a decision of principle as much as he truely believing he has a strong chance of caps for England.

We'll see if his principles hold out if he doesn't get capped by England I guess.
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Re: Residency

Post by marty2086 on Thu May 11, 2017 2:41 pm

munkian wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:See Max Clark has turned down Wales as he wants to play for England. Welsh mother and Welsh born, makes a change from the usual choice.

To be fair hes already an England player and Bath academy product.

That said its a heck of a call for him to turn down Wales at this stage in his career. It does seem to be as much a decision of principle as much as he truely believing he has a strong chance of caps for England.

We'll see if his principles hold out if he doesn't get capped by England I guess.

Aren't England players paid more per appearance etc? They are also usually more visible on the world stage which means more potential for endorsements etc so may not be more principled

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Re: Residency

Post by LordDowlais on Thu May 11, 2017 2:57 pm

marty2086 wrote:
munkian wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:See Max Clarke has turned down Wales as he wants to play for England. Welsh mother and Welsh born, makes a change from the usual choice.

To be fair hes already an England player and Bath academy product.

That said its a heck of a call for him to turn down Wales at this stage in his career. It does seem to be as much a decision of principle as much as he truely believing he has a strong chance of caps for England.

We'll see if his principles hold out if he doesn't get capped by England I guess.

Aren't England players paid more per appearance etc? They are also usually more visible on the world stage which means more potential for endorsements etc so may not be more principled

Yes that is probably it. Also, don't English clubs get more money for producing and fielding EQ players ? How much of this is his decision, compared to his club, and union, helping him come to his decision. Also we have a lot of young centers coming through the ranks as well, so lets just wait and see how his career pans out.

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Re: Residency

Post by BamBam on Thu May 11, 2017 3:49 pm

Ah yes, if he's chosen to play for England it's probably because of the money, but if he'd chosen Wales it would be because of his love for the place his mum popped out of his nan

OK

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Re: Residency

Post by marty2086 on Thu May 11, 2017 3:50 pm

BamBam wrote:Ah yes, if he's chosen to play for England it's probably because of the money, but if he'd chosen Wales it would be because of his love for the place his mum popped out of his nan

OK

Pretty sure that kinda thing is illegal but that's the Welsh are a weird bunch Whistle

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Re: Residency

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu May 11, 2017 3:51 pm

Indeed from birth place not being important but a distant 2nd to where you live to the opposite all because it's england vs wales.

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Re: Residency

Post by LordDowlais on Thu May 11, 2017 4:13 pm

BamBam wrote:Ah yes, if he's chosen to play for England it's probably because of the money, but if he'd chosen Wales it would be because of his love for the place his mum popped out of his nan

OK

Why would it be any different the other way around ?

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Re: Residency

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu May 11, 2017 4:56 pm

You've just said where people are born should not be brought into it...

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Re: Residency

Post by The Great Aukster on Thu May 11, 2017 5:26 pm

marty2086 wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Players should be able to qualify for the country they now reside in even if they've been capped already but not selected in the last 5 years. That would be more in keeping with citizenship.

The real problem with qualification is large nations capping players once to stop them being capped elsewhere, so if a nation does not select a capped player for five years, then that player should be available for any other nation he does qualify for.

You could open the whole thing up to a real mercenary trade then, if a player does well for say Fiji whats to stop a big union waving a pay check in front of them not to play for 5 years and play in their country to requalify?

Nothing more than their principles.

It might actually encourage more PIs to play for their home nations initially to get in the Test shop window, and some of them may like it so much they stay. Whereas currently they may shy away from playing Test rugby at all in the hope that they get a chance after five years of a bigger payday that may never come.

Some Unions are unprincipled in capping players and then not using them - seemingly to stop them playing for anyone else. If they had to keep playing them periodically it might discourage the practice.

The risk/reward balance is wrong at the moment where the Unions have everything to gain by the scatter-gun capping of as many players as possible, and the player gets one chance to make a never to be rescinded life-affirming choice. There is a reason that people can change their citizenship and it should be the same in sport.

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Re: Residency

Post by BamBam on Thu May 11, 2017 5:30 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
BamBam wrote:Ah yes, if he's chosen to play for England it's probably because of the money, but if he'd chosen Wales it would be because of his love for the place his mum popped out of his nan

OK

Why would it be any different the other way around ?

You stated that the reason he picked England is "probably" because of the extra money. As if that would be the only possible reason that someone would pick England Rolling Eyes

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
munkian wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:See Max Clarke has turned down Wales as he wants to play for England. Welsh mother and Welsh born, makes a change from the usual choice.

To be fair hes already an England player and Bath academy product.

That said its a heck of a call for him to turn down Wales at this stage in his career. It does seem to be as much a decision of principle as much as he truely believing he has a strong chance of caps for England.

We'll see if his principles hold out if he doesn't get capped by England I guess.

Aren't England players paid more per appearance etc? They are also usually more visible on the world stage which means more potential for endorsements etc so may not be more principled

Yes that is probably it. Also, don't English clubs get more money for producing and fielding EQ players ? How much of this is his decision, compared to his club, and union, helping him come to his decision. Also we have a lot of young centers coming through the ranks as well, so lets just wait and see how his career pans out.

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Re: Residency

Post by LordDowlais on Thu May 11, 2017 5:53 pm

BamBam wrote:You stated that the reason he picked England is "probably" because of the extra money. As if that would be the only possible reason that someone would pick England Rolling Eyes

Not for the player though, I was thinking along the lines of Bath getting more money from the RFU for fielding and producing a potential England international, isn't that a rule the PRL has in regards to supplying England with players ?

But hey lets not let that get in the way of your agenda on here. Rolling Eyes

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Re: Residency

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu May 11, 2017 6:20 pm

Except you made that point under the ...also point .

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Re: Residency

Post by BamBam on Thu May 11, 2017 7:08 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Except you made that point under the ...also point .

Laugh

But yes, its my agenda

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Re: Residency

Post by Pot Hale on Thu May 11, 2017 8:06 pm

Yep - CJ Stander was targeted by the IRFU because Ireland are short of backrowers.......

Makes sense cos they only had yer man O'Brien. And whatshisface, And the other guy. And the bloke with the welsh name. And the bloke born in Barcelona. And gnarly face who played against England. And that tall fella for Leinster. And the bloke in Munster. And the other guy yer man from NZ in Connacht.

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Re: Residency

Post by Gwlad on Sun May 14, 2017 7:50 pm

Reflecting on this, its a poor half move and it will just encourage countries to recruit younger players into their respective school systems, offering them scholarships to nurture their rugby potential so that they then qualify at he right age. Until they make it 10 years such sharp practises will inevitably evolve from this change from 3 to 5 years.

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Re: Residency

Post by Gwlad on Sun May 14, 2017 7:53 pm

miaow wrote:
Gwlad wrote:p1ss poor banter for sure


You know you're struggling when you can't even think of your own insult!

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Re: Residency

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