British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

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British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by miaow on Tue 09 May 2017, 1:27 pm

First topic message reminder :

robbo277 wrote:
But as I said, I don't want players to water down their comments. I want to read what the players think, I don't want to read what the press officer tells them to say.

That's fair enough, and I agree with the rest of your comment on this basis. I personally don't particularly care what Mike Brown thinks, especially when it's as obvious as "experienced test player is disappointed to have not been selected for the Lions". I could have told you that without Mike Brown's public statement. The point where it deviated from him merely expressing his disappointment to one where he's put his foot in his mouth is the fact he questioned the coaches' lack of communication to him personally. Even if he's right- and I think he may well be- to publicly bring that into question in the way he has done is antithetical to the whole business of a squad as a unity, a whole above the self.

As for him being a liability, I agree to an extent, but equally he does get in his fair few verbal and physical scraps. He's clearly not a player who's particularly in control of his emotions, a bit like Biggar, in that he wants to plead his case long after it is obvious his efforts are utterly in vain. He's not a catastrophe by any means, but having played with people like him, they can be liabilities. Ticking time bomb may be the incorrect phrase, and overdoing it slightly, but that doesn't negate the point entirely. Either way, it doesn't particularly matter, as I don't think it really affects his performance or mentality, and the players around him, too much: but if it did, it's hard to quantify anyway.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 29 May 2017, 9:18 am

I could definitely see gatland going with that and a total of about 2 English players in the starting lineup in Farrell and Kruis.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by George Carlin on Mon 29 May 2017, 9:27 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
ebop wrote:Club rugby used to be special but now it's just a bunch of people playing rugby for money. There's not that much honour in winning a domestic club competition these days. Whippty whoo, Toulon win a French club competition with a bunch of foreigners. Pretty dull. Boudjelly probably thinks it's really meaningful. Money well spent. Good on Halfpenny, being British meant more to him than some French nutjob's ego.
For me, it's all about Ha'penny's contract.

If he's legally bound to play all of their domestic games, then he should honour these arrangements and play for his club. If his contract exempts him, then absolutely he should go. it's fine to take money for playing rugby, but that means you should be professional in every sense of the word.

You didn't see the likes of Liam Williams taking it easy in the Pro12 final the other day.

 However arent you going down the line of undermining International Rugby?
I guess I just think that you cannot have the benefits of a professional set up without the downsides. It's not about which is more 'worthy'.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by eirebilly on Mon 29 May 2017, 9:59 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I could definitely see gatland going with that and a total of about 2 English players in the starting lineup in Farrell and Kruis.

I think that England will also have George, Itoje, Kruis and Farrell in the starting lineup myself. Seems very light considering they are the reigning 6N champions and have only lost one game since the 2015 RWC.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 29 May 2017, 10:12 am

That backline will not compete against the ABs whatsoever, Davies might be in better form like Halfpenny but neither are good enough to be going let alone starting.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by aucklandlaurie on Mon 29 May 2017, 10:16 am

George Carlin wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
ebop wrote:Club rugby used to be special but now it's just a bunch of people playing rugby for money. There's not that much honour in winning a domestic club competition these days. Whippty whoo, Toulon win a French club competition with a bunch of foreigners. Pretty dull. Boudjelly probably thinks it's really meaningful. Money well spent. Good on Halfpenny, being British meant more to him than some French nutjob's ego.
For me, it's all about Ha'penny's contract.

If he's legally bound to play all of their domestic games, then he should honour these arrangements and play for his club. If his contract exempts him, then absolutely he should go. it's fine to take money for playing rugby, but that means you should be professional in every sense of the word.

You didn't see the likes of Liam Williams taking it easy in the Pro12 final the other day.

 However arent you going down the line of undermining International Rugby?
I guess I just think that you cannot have the benefits of a professional set up without the downsides. It's not about which is more 'worthy'.

Players for tier 1 International teams should make up their minds as to whether they want to play international or the more Professional club Rugby. its been done plenty of times in the past.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by eirebilly on Mon 29 May 2017, 10:19 am

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That backline will not compete against the ABs whatsoever,  Davies might be in better form like Halfpenny but neither are good enough to be going let alone starting.

I agree with you on Halfpenny but Davies has shown excellent form recently and looks back to his best so definitely worthy of his selection and even a starting position.

I think the most effective 12/13 for the Lions would be Henshaw and Payne at 12/13. I know I believe that Payne is a better 15 than 13 but against SH countries, I feel Payne is a very effective 13.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 29 May 2017, 10:25 am

Davies isn't going to do a thing against the ABs and a couple of decent performances against knackered opposition doesn't suddenly change the past 12 months for me. Your probably right that that backline is what Gatland will pick but it will be pulverized like the Welsh always have been against the Southern Hemisphere teams.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 29 May 2017, 10:26 am

I can't agree with Payne Billy, he doesn't offer enough going forward for me, despite being strong defensively.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by eirebilly on Mon 29 May 2017, 10:31 am

Payne knows the SH game back to front at 13 which is why I would rate him there. He is not the most attacking 13 but he does have an ability to bring others into the attack. For Payne to be 13, very strong attacking line runners at 11, 14 and 15 would be required. Williams, Nowell and Hogg would be the perfect match for Payne at 13.

This is just me thinking out loud though thumbsup

Hammer, Davies has had a poor last 12 months but has massive experience and is coming back to form. Deserved of his selection IMHO.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 29 May 2017, 10:33 am

We simply won't win with him in the team though even at his best he's not good enough for a team hoping to win in New Zealand so his form is fairly irrelevant.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by eirebilly on Mon 29 May 2017, 10:35 am

Davies needs a ball playing 12 inside him. He rarely looked creative with Roberts but look what he can do with a ball playing 12 (see pro-12 final) inside him. In Henshaw (or even better, Farrell) he will be brought into the game more. Its all about tactics and I feel that Davies could do very well.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 29 May 2017, 10:45 am

I wouldn't put Henshaw in the "playmaker" category. He has been converted into a blunt instrument at 12. He is rather skilful in the wider channels but I'm sure we have seen the last of that. I don't think Henshaw-Davies would be the most effective centre partnership in the world. But then, have any playmaking 12s been brought on tour bar Farrell, who will probably feature at 10 instead?

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by eirebilly on Mon 29 May 2017, 10:54 am

I don't disagree with you Rory, Schmidt has transformed Henshaw into a Roberts markII bosh merchant but for Leinster, he plays a more playmaker role so I do not believe he has lost that ability.

Farrell, sadly, is pretty much the only out and out playmaking 12 on the tour but I honestly feel he must play 10 as Sexton is too prone to injury and looks way off form.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Rory_Gallagher on Mon 29 May 2017, 11:06 am

I don't think 12 is a particularly strong position for any of the home nations.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by screamingaddabs on Mon 29 May 2017, 11:11 am

If Sexton doesn't start (and so Farrell is 10), then the options at centre are:

Henshaw, Payne, Joseph, Teo, Davies, and technically Daly. (And even more technically Nowell...). None of the possible combinations inspires me to be honest!

Just hope Sexton stays fit and finds form!

Of course, Biggar at 10 and Farrell at 12 is always possible... Erm censored
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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by sensisball on Mon 29 May 2017, 12:21 pm

Sexton's loss of form is worrying but so is the way the Leinster and lions props got bossed by Clermont in the quarter finals of Europe. The bare minimum the Lions need is an edge in the scrum and they need all the props to be playing to their potential, pushing for selection, not having an end of season slump in form.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 29 May 2017, 12:33 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
ebop wrote:Club rugby used to be special but now it's just a bunch of people playing rugby for money. There's not that much honour in winning a domestic club competition these days. Whippty whoo, Toulon win a French club competition with a bunch of foreigners. Pretty dull. Boudjelly probably thinks it's really meaningful. Money well spent. Good on Halfpenny, being British meant more to him than some French nutjob's ego.
For me, it's all about Ha'penny's contract.

If he's legally bound to play all of their domestic games, then he should honour these arrangements and play for his club. If his contract exempts him, then absolutely he should go. it's fine to take money for playing rugby, but that means you should be professional in every sense of the word.

You didn't see the likes of Liam Williams taking it easy in the Pro12 final the other day.

 However arent you going down the line of undermining International Rugby?
I guess I just think that you cannot have the benefits of a professional set up without the downsides. It's not about which is more 'worthy'.

Players for tier 1 International teams should make up their minds as to whether they want to play international or the more Professional club Rugby. its been done plenty of times in the past.

Why is the Lions classed as a tier 1 Test team?
They play more club games than Tests and then only against a small number of nations. They have no ranking point status and the records against the teams they do play show they are usually inferior. The Lions is no more a tier 1 Test team than say the Barbarians, who don't have Test caps awarded.

For Halfpenny to exercise his option to play for the faux 'Test' rugby circus rather than for his team is totally risible.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Kingshu on Mon 29 May 2017, 1:12 pm

Its funny about Payne, at 15 he is seen as a great attacking fullback, joining the line and making breaks, and people want him at 15 for the attacking brilliance he brings.

At 13 he is seen as not attacking enough but as a great defensive organiser, who makes others look great.

I don't fully hold that a great attacking fullback is not the most attacking 13, personally I think that for Irelands game plan his attacking from 13 has been curtailed.

Its not that Payne isn't an attacking 13, but the game plan hasn't allowed him to be, he certainly makes more breaks from 13 for Ulster than Ireland.

Therefore I think that he has the ability and could be used in a more attacking role at 13 if the game plan allows it.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 29 May 2017, 2:08 pm

I must admit, I don't rate Payne too highly and was very surprised he's touring. You look at the squad and he's arguably the 4/5th best in his position at FB/13. I'd be amazed if he made the test XV.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by eirebilly on Mon 29 May 2017, 3:09 pm

Kingshu wrote:Its funny about Payne, at 15 he is seen as a great attacking fullback, joining the line and making breaks, and people want him at 15 for the attacking brilliance he brings.

At 13 he is seen as not attacking enough but as a great defensive organiser, who makes others look great.

I don't fully hold that a great attacking fullback is not the most attacking 13, personally I think that for Irelands game plan his attacking from 13 has been curtailed.

Its not that Payne isn't an attacking 13, but the game plan hasn't allowed him to be, he certainly makes more breaks from 13 for Ulster than Ireland
.

Therefore I think that he has the ability and could be used in a more attacking role at 13 if the game plan allows it.

That is a very decent point, I will try to find some of his games at 13 for Ulster and see if he does pose more of an attacking threat than what I have seen.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Mon 29 May 2017, 3:25 pm

In all fairness most centres make more breaks at pro 12 level than test level.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 29 May 2017, 3:52 pm

Exactly Guns, different kettle of fish at Int.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Taylorman on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:51 am

The Great Aukster wrote:Club rugby whether professional or amateur represents the area where they are based. Halfpenny represents Toulon and gets well paid to do so. To turn his back on his TEAM in their most important game of the year is against the very traditions of the game.
A club final means a lot to those supporters who have followed their team week in week out through thick and thin. The betrayal of his team for thirty pieces of silver is indefensible.

What a load of rubbish. Only reason hes there is because bouj pays more money.
Do you really think these guys hearts are in playing with a bunch of money grabbers from all over the world to play in the back blocks of France for a few locals they neither know nor care about?

There is honour in playing for a tradtion like the Lions, more so than fir a money grabbing mercenary outfit like Toulon, who offer nothing to the rugby of the areas of the players they steal from.

So stff them. That aint real rugby, its two bit imitation of the baabaas in wolfs clothing.

At least halfpenny knows where his rugby priorities lie.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Taylorman on Tue 30 May 2017, 1:05 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
ebop wrote:Club rugby used to be special but now it's just a bunch of people playing rugby for money. There's not that much honour in winning a domestic club competition these days. Whippty whoo, Toulon win a French club competition with a bunch of foreigners. Pretty dull. Boudjelly probably thinks it's really meaningful. Money well spent. Good on Halfpenny, being British meant more to him than some French nutjob's ego.
For me, it's all about Ha'penny's contract.

If he's legally bound to play all of their domestic games, then he should honour these arrangements and play for his club. If his contract exempts him, then absolutely he should go. it's fine to take money for playing rugby, but that means you should be professional in every sense of the word.

You didn't see the likes of Liam Williams taking it easy in the Pro12 final the other day.

 However arent you going down the line of undermining International Rugby?
I guess I just think that you cannot have the benefits of a professional set up without the downsides. It's not about which is more 'worthy'.

Players for tier 1 International teams should make up their minds as to whether they want to play international or the more Professional club Rugby. its been done plenty of times in the past.

Why is the Lions classed as a tier 1 Test team?
They play more club games than Tests and then only against a small number of nations. They have no ranking point status and the records against the teams they do play show they are usually inferior. The Lions is no more a tier 1 Test team than say the Barbarians, who don't have Test caps awarded.

For Halfpenny to exercise his option to play for the faux 'Test' rugby circus rather than for his team is totally risible.

Thats one way of looking at it but you dont see 30,000 people going to follow a team over ten thousand miles away to watch any other rugby side and if anything Toulon is more baabaas than the Lions which at least limits its catchment area to an area less than 'the entire planet'.


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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by aucklandlaurie on Tue 30 May 2017, 2:20 am

So the Lions are in the air, on a Qantas jet, Where the hell were Air NZ and BA?

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by rapidsnowman on Tue 30 May 2017, 5:06 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:So the Lions are in the air, on a Qantas jet, Where the hell were Air NZ and BA?

BA Laugh

Do you want them to get there or not?

Norman in I.T. is still trying to find the OFF button so he can switch their system OFF and then ON again.
Always works for me  OK

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Exiledinborders on Tue 30 May 2017, 6:50 am

rapidsnowman wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:So the Lions are in the air, on a Qantas jet, Where the hell were Air NZ and BA?

BA Laugh

Do you want them to get there or not?

Norman in I.T. is still trying to find the OFF button so he can switch their system OFF and then ON again.
Always works for me  OK
I think the problem is that BA sacked Norman and his pals who worked every day on BA's systems and knew what they were doing. They now rely on people in India who can work on a different company's system each day and have no idea what to do when things go wrong. They are cheap though.

Anyway back to the Rugby.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Tue 30 May 2017, 9:21 am

rapidsnowman wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:So the Lions are in the air, on a Qantas jet, Where the hell were Air NZ and BA?

BA Laugh

Do you want them to get there or not?

Norman in I.T. is still trying to find the OFF button so he can switch their system OFF and then ON again.
Always works for me  OK

Flew to Buenos Aires with BA recently. They were really bad. The plane was soooo old.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 30 May 2017, 9:23 am

When I travelled to NZ BA was by far the worst airline - you don't get much more leg room than a standard internal flight.

Quantas were really good, apart from losing our luggage on the way home...

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by beshocked on Tue 30 May 2017, 9:32 am

eirebilly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure you ll have too much to hide from! Jones chipped in yesterday to add his doubts to the game plan which is liking more likely. I'm still holding out hope it's a bit of a double bluff and we'll see Sexton and Farrell in the same team.

As Davies is looking right back to form, I would doubt that we will see Sexton and Farrell in the same team forming a 10-12 axis. I would suggest that (based on form and Gatlands familiarity with players) it will look more like this :

09 : Webb (Murray is only just returning from injury and looked slightly off form the last two games)
10 : Farrell (looks in way better form than Sexton currently)
11 : North (he will just get in there because he is George North and Gatland rates him highly, I would prefer Nowell)
12 : Henshaw (in because of his size and skill at 12, pip's Teo due to international experience)
13 : Davies (has returned to form well and is looking the best 13 option again)
14 : Williams (In good form and can be a very damaging counter attacker)
15 : Halfpenny (again, I would go for Hogg but 1/2p is a trusted performer for Gatland, will be even more assured as a starter if Sexton is selected ahead of Farrell)

I could be very wrong on this but I cant see it being far off.

5 Welsh backs seriously? You'd think Wales have one of the best backlines in the world on that basis.



Gatland's Wales have an atrocious record vs SH sides. Not seen any indication Gatland will change this.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by robbo277 on Tue 30 May 2017, 9:37 am

beshocked wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure you ll have too much to hide from! Jones chipped in yesterday to add his doubts to the game plan which is liking more likely. I'm still holding out hope it's a bit of a double bluff and we'll see Sexton and Farrell in the same team.

As Davies is looking right back to form, I would doubt that we will see Sexton and Farrell in the same team forming a 10-12 axis. I would suggest that (based on form and Gatlands familiarity with players) it will look more like this :

09 : Webb (Murray is only just returning from injury and looked slightly off form the last two games)
10 : Farrell (looks in way better form than Sexton currently)
11 : North (he will just get in there because he is George North and Gatland rates him highly, I would prefer Nowell)
12 : Henshaw (in because of his size and skill at 12, pip's Teo due to international experience)
13 : Davies (has returned to form well and is looking the best 13 option again)
14 : Williams (In good form and can be a very damaging counter attacker)
15 : Halfpenny (again, I would go for Hogg but 1/2p is a trusted performer for Gatland, will be even more assured as a starter if Sexton is selected ahead of Farrell)

I could be very wrong on this but I cant see it being far off.

5 Welsh backs seriously? You'd think Wales have one of the best backlines in the world on that basis.



Gatland's Wales have an atrocious record vs SH sides. Not seen any indication Gatland will change this.

In Billy's defence, he's gone in with the team he thinks Gatland would pick.

Wales have some good backs, they just lack creativity at 10/12. Their outside backs can be quite dangerous.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by beshocked on Tue 30 May 2017, 9:48 am

robbo277 wrote:
beshocked wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure you ll have too much to hide from! Jones chipped in yesterday to add his doubts to the game plan which is liking more likely. I'm still holding out hope it's a bit of a double bluff and we'll see Sexton and Farrell in the same team.

As Davies is looking right back to form, I would doubt that we will see Sexton and Farrell in the same team forming a 10-12 axis. I would suggest that (based on form and Gatlands familiarity with players) it will look more like this :

09 : Webb (Murray is only just returning from injury and looked slightly off form the last two games)
10 : Farrell (looks in way better form than Sexton currently)
11 : North (he will just get in there because he is George North and Gatland rates him highly, I would prefer Nowell)
12 : Henshaw (in because of his size and skill at 12, pip's Teo due to international experience)
13 : Davies (has returned to form well and is looking the best 13 option again)
14 : Williams (In good form and can be a very damaging counter attacker)
15 : Halfpenny (again, I would go for Hogg but 1/2p is a trusted performer for Gatland, will be even more assured as a starter if Sexton is selected ahead of Farrell)

I could be very wrong on this but I cant see it being far off.

5 Welsh backs seriously? You'd think Wales have one of the best backlines in the world on that basis.



Gatland's Wales have an atrocious record vs SH sides. Not seen any indication Gatland will change this.

In Billy's defence, he's gone in with the team he thinks Gatland would pick.

Wales have some good backs, they just lack creativity at 10/12. Their outside backs can be quite dangerous.

Wales' backs need to score more tries.

Davies,L.Williams and Halfpenny in particular need to increase theirs.

Won't beat the ABs unless you score tries vs them.

Too much the Welsh backs have been too blunt, going with the bludgeon.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by rapidsnowman on Tue 30 May 2017, 10:14 am

09: Murray/Webb
10: Sexton/Farrell
11: North
12: Henshaw
13: Payne
14 L. Williams
15: Hogg

Henshaw was fantastic against NZ in autumn - he was almost over pumped.
Him and Payne would be a 'safe' midfield defensively and Payne is so clever at bringing others into attack.
Back 3 look dangerous.

They might all be injured before the first test anyway Cool

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 30 May 2017, 10:43 am

beshocked wrote:

Wales' backs need to score more tries.

Two of the top try-scorers in the recent 6N were Welsh backline players and they're both touring, but don't let shear stupidity cloud your judgment.

laughing

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by beshocked on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:00 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Wales' backs need to score more tries.

Two of the top try-scorers in the recent 6N were Welsh backline players and they're both touring, but don't let shear stupidity cloud your judgment.

laughing

L.Williams - strike rate is still poor. I want to see him up it.

6 of your only 8 tries came from those 2 players....

Scotland and Ireland scored 6 more tries than Wales with England having double the try tally with 16.

England have 5 backs in the top try scorers, Wales 2, Scotland 4, Ireland 2 - oh dear.....

Surely that proves my point that Welsh backs need to score more tries?

Ireland had 2 forwards in the top try scorers.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:11 pm

beshocked wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Wales' backs need to score more tries.

Two of the top try-scorers in the recent 6N were Welsh backline players and they're both touring, but don't let shear stupidity cloud your judgment.

laughing

L.Williams - strike rate is still poor. I want to see him up it.

6 of your only 8 tries came from those 2 players....

Scotland and Ireland scored 6 more tries than Wales with England having double the try tally with 16.

England have 5 backs in the top try scorers, Wales 2, Scotland 4, Ireland 2 - oh dear.....

Surely that proves my point that Welsh backs need to score more tries?

Ireland had 2 forwards in the top try scorers.

But you said they need to score more tries, and recent form suggests that they have been scoring more tries - are we missing something?

Why don't you just admit you got it wrong rather than drag it off topic? I can see why so many posters are taking issue with it now as you just type drivel.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by beshocked on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:17 pm

mikey dragon 2 players is not a whole backline.....

8 tries in 5 6 nations games with 6 coming from only those 2 backs is poor IMO.

I am not wrong.

L.Williams overall strike rate is still poor despite scoring 3 in the 6 nations.

Not off topic to suggest it's worrying to pick 5 backs for the Lions from Wales when the try scoring is poor compared to England for example.


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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:20 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
beshocked wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Wales' backs need to score more tries.

Two of the top try-scorers in the recent 6N were Welsh backline players and they're both touring, but don't let shear stupidity cloud your judgment.

laughing

L.Williams - strike rate is still poor. I want to see him up it.

6 of your only 8 tries came from those 2 players....

Scotland and Ireland scored 6 more tries than Wales with England having double the try tally with 16.

England have 5 backs in the top try scorers, Wales 2, Scotland 4, Ireland 2 - oh dear.....

Surely that proves my point that Welsh backs need to score more tries?

Ireland had 2 forwards in the top try scorers.

But you said they need to score more tries, and recent form suggests that they have been scoring more tries - are we missing something?

Why don't you just admit you got it wrong rather than drag it off topic? I can see why so many posters are taking issue with it now as you just type drivel.

Wales strike rate has been poor this season. Individuals (North and Williams) have performed reasonably well, but even the most patriotic fan would have to admit they haven't been at the races in attack this year. Failing to get a BP against Italy, being shut out in the 2nd half against Scotland and failing to score a single try vs France sets alarm bells ringing.

I do think it's a coaching/selection problem at Wales. The Scarlets for example had absolutely no problem scoring tries. Although a lot of that was based on their phenomenal backrow who preyed on every breakdown scoring turnovers, and counter attacking.

Wales after 1st phase ball have looked absolutely clueless all season.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:40 pm

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon 2 players is not a whole backline.....

8 tries in 5 6 nations games with 6 coming from only those 2 backs is poor IMO.

I am not wrong.

L.Williams overall strike rate is still poor despite scoring 3 in the 6 nations.

Not off topic to suggest it's worrying to pick 5 backs for the Lions from Wales when the try scoring is poor compared to England for example.


You said Wales backs, no the whole backline, and as this is a Lions thread presumably you were talking about the Wales backs selected for the Lions? Two of which are among the top try-scorers in the 6N yet for some reason you don't think they score tries. Halfpenny needs to score more tries but Welsh backs no the whole no, as they're among the 6N's top try-scorers.

You're still dragging it off topic as you got it wrong. Wales' Lions backs are among the top try-scorers and you just can't admit it.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:43 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
beshocked wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Wales' backs need to score more tries.

Two of the top try-scorers in the recent 6N were Welsh backline players and they're both touring, but don't let shear stupidity cloud your judgment.

laughing

L.Williams - strike rate is still poor. I want to see him up it.

6 of your only 8 tries came from those 2 players....

Scotland and Ireland scored 6 more tries than Wales with England having double the try tally with 16.

England have 5 backs in the top try scorers, Wales 2, Scotland 4, Ireland 2 - oh dear.....

Surely that proves my point that Welsh backs need to score more tries?

Ireland had 2 forwards in the top try scorers.

But you said they need to score more tries, and recent form suggests that they have been scoring more tries - are we missing something?

Why don't you just admit you got it wrong rather than drag it off topic? I can see why so many posters are taking issue with it now as you just type drivel.

Wales strike rate has been poor this season. Individuals (North and Williams) have performed reasonably well, but even the most patriotic fan would have to admit they haven't been at the races in attack this year. Failing to get a BP against Italy, being shut out in the 2nd half against Scotland and failing to score a single try vs France sets alarm bells ringing.

I do think it's a coaching/selection problem at Wales. The Scarlets for example had absolutely no problem scoring tries. Although a lot of that was based on their phenomenal backrow who preyed on every breakdown scoring turnovers, and counter attacking.

Wales after 1st phase ball have looked absolutely clueless all season.

Your first paragraph is true yet Wales' backs are among the top try-scorers in the 6N and have been selected to go on tour to NZ albeit they may not make the test team. Rather than acknowledge this BS just likes to drag it off topic. He only mentioned the Wales backs and didn't bother to look up that two of them are among the top try-scorers in the 6N whilst the other stats favour players like JD2. I can't see why else you would back up BS other than see an opportunity to have a pop at Wales which is typical for a Scot to do.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by beshocked on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:49 pm

It's not off topic.

If L.Williams and North were the only Welsh backs potentially being picked I don't think anyone would really question their selection.

It's when people start talking about 5 Welsh backs being picked.

2 players, as I said England had 5 backs in the top try scorers, Scotland 4.

I was talking about Welsh backs in general. Not just 2.

Biggar lacks creativity. Davies lacks creativity, Halfpenny is not much of an attacking threat.

As I said I don't think you'd find too many people being against L.Williams and North being on the wings.

The problem would be to fill the rest of the backline with Welsh players.

mikey dragon you are ignoring the ineffective Welsh backs and only focusing on North and L.Williams' tries.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:53 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:...You said Wales backs, no the whole backline....
To be fair to beshocked, he was criticizing a Lions backline selection which included five Welsh backs, so he is talking about the effectiveness of the Welsh backline.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:54 pm

Mikey is there really any reason to be so aggressive, especially when the posters you are arguing with aren't responding in a similar manner?

Radge in particular made a fair, uncontroversial post (most Welsh fans were moaning about the lack of attacking threat in the 6N) - he even has Welsh family! Really no need for the extra comments and digs that you are throwing in just now.


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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:54 pm

North and Williams are both good finishers when chances are created for them but Webb, Biggar and Davies rarely created a platform for the team as a whole to function.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:57 pm

....but you mentioned Wales backs and not scoring tries, then when it was pointed out to you that two Wales backs are among the top try-scorers you shifted the goal posts and began talking about team Wales as a whole.

I can't see any other Wales backs than North, Williams and JD2 being in contention for the test team, possibly Webb too. Now Webb didn't score that many tries so I assume that you think he's shyte despite being the best 9 available?

Scotland had one player who scored as many as North and Williams, whilst England had two in JJ and Watson (all scored 3 each). So what spin are you going to put on it now? Is it one that would favour Chris Ashton?

Davies lacks creativity? Okay yeah you haven't been watching rugby lately so this is an invalid! PS stats favour him highly like I've previously stated.

I don't think anyone and certainly not Gatland will be filling the Lions backline full of Welsh players, but bear in mind their backs can perform well in poorly-performing teams seeing as you keep trying to shift when you only mentioned Wales backs in the first instance.


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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 30 May 2017, 12:59 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
beshocked wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Wales' backs need to score more tries.

Two of the top try-scorers in the recent 6N were Welsh backline players and they're both touring, but don't let shear stupidity cloud your judgment.

laughing

L.Williams - strike rate is still poor. I want to see him up it.

6 of your only 8 tries came from those 2 players....

Scotland and Ireland scored 6 more tries than Wales with England having double the try tally with 16.

England have 5 backs in the top try scorers, Wales 2, Scotland 4, Ireland 2 - oh dear.....

Surely that proves my point that Welsh backs need to score more tries?

Ireland had 2 forwards in the top try scorers.

But you said they need to score more tries, and recent form suggests that they have been scoring more tries - are we missing something?

Why don't you just admit you got it wrong rather than drag it off topic? I can see why so many posters are taking issue with it now as you just type drivel.

Wales strike rate has been poor this season. Individuals (North and Williams) have performed reasonably well, but even the most patriotic fan would have to admit they haven't been at the races in attack this year. Failing to get a BP against Italy, being shut out in the 2nd half against Scotland and failing to score a single try vs France sets alarm bells ringing.

I do think it's a coaching/selection problem at Wales. The Scarlets for example had absolutely no problem scoring tries. Although a lot of that was based on their phenomenal backrow who preyed on every breakdown scoring turnovers, and counter attacking.

Wales after 1st phase ball have looked absolutely clueless all season.

Your first paragraph is true yet Wales' backs are among the top try-scorers in the 6N and have been selected to go on tour to NZ albeit they may not make the test team. Rather than acknowledge this BS just likes to drag it off topic. He only mentioned the Wales backs and didn't bother to look up that two of them are among the top try-scorers in the 6N whilst the other stats favour players like JD2. I can't see why else you would back up BS other than see an opportunity to have a pop at Wales which is typical for a Scot to do.

Pointing out the flaws in the Welsh backline isn't having a pop. However if you think it is, and want to play the victim card bash on.

I also made the point that the Scarlets backline, which includes the Welsh centre pairing and one of Wales' top try scorers looked great.

Hence the problem has to be at Wales because Williams and Davies, who both looked poor for Wales looked tremendous for scarlets.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by Scottrf on Tue 30 May 2017, 1:00 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Davies lacks creativity? Okay yeah you haven't been watching rugby lately so this is an invalid!

Wouldn't say an invalid, just not the best 13 available.
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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by beshocked on Tue 30 May 2017, 1:04 pm

mikey dragon when I said Welsh backs I meant it as a whole, there can be exceptions which as you pointed out L.Williams and North have been - scoring a good amount of tries in the 6 nations.

I am not against seeing L.Williams and North on the wings with Hogg at full back.

I would worry me to see Halfpenny at 15 though.

Then it's about finding the right half backs and centres to get the best from that back three.

I personally thought Scottish and English backs performed better in the 6 nations than the Irish and Welsh.

Doesn't mean I'd completely discount Irish and Welsh backs. I just wouldn't fill the team with 5 Welsh backs.


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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 30 May 2017, 1:05 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Pointing out the flaws in the Welsh backline isn't having a pop. However if you think it is, and want to play the victim card bash on.

I also made the point that the Scarlets backline, which includes the Welsh centre pairing and one of Wales' top try scorers looked great.

Hence the problem has to be at Wales because Williams and Davies, who both looked poor for Wales looked tremendous for scarlets.

What flaws though, mostly they've performed well in what was a poor team coached by a pair of amateurs. That said the Welsh backline won't be playing for Wales, some of them will be playing for the Lions should they get picked so I didn't see how it was that relevant. I imagine the ones in form and scoring tries are in contention though which is probably between 2 and 4 starters. If scoring tries is what keeps some folk happy then perhaps it should be acknowledged that they do actually score tries?

Yes I agree with you again (didn't see how agreeing with you in the first place was aggressive but hey-ho). Like you and others have alluded to that's the difference in coaching between a bunch of amateurs and a pro like Wayne Pivac.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 30 May 2017, 1:09 pm

beshocked wrote:mikey dragon when I said Welsh backs I meant it as a whole, there can be exceptions which as you pointed out L.Williams and North have been - scoring a good amount of tries in the 6 nations.

I am not against seeing L.Williams and North on the wings with Hogg at full back.

I would worry me to see Halfpenny at 15 though.

Then it's about finding the right half backs and centres to get the best from that back three.

I personally thought Scottish and English backs performed better in the 6 nations than the Irish and Welsh.

Doesn't mean I'd completely discount Irish and Welsh backs. I just wouldn't fill the team with 5 Welsh backs.


I wouldn't either. If you wouldn't then that's fine but try and make a more reasonable argument next time rather than state something that is inaccurate. Stats and form favour players like Williams, North and Davies whether you like to admit it or not. I doubt I'd pick North, I'd more likely go for Nowell and Williams on the wings with Hogg at full-back.

PS how Zebo wasn't also selected I don't know.

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Re: British & Irish Lions Squad 2017

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