NextGen Scoring Changes

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NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by laverfan on Thu 18 May 2017, 2:45 am

Very interesting - http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/news/rule-changes-innovation-for-next-gen-atp-finals-2017

Amongst other changes, this one stands out

   Shot Clock
•   A shot clock will be used in between points to ensure strict regulation of the 25-second rule, as well as during set breaks, Medical Time-Outs, and the five-minute countdown from the player walk-on to the first point of the match.

... but this one may grate on some nerves..

Player Coaching
•   Players and coaches will be able to communicate at certain points in the match (to be determined), providing additional content and entertainment value for broadcast. Coaches will not be allowed on-court.

WTA-Like? chin

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Guest on Thu 18 May 2017, 9:28 am

I found the following more interesting

"The rule changes, aimed at creating a high-tempo, cutting-edge, and TV-friendly product, are geared towards attracting new and younger fans into the sport, while at the same time retaining the sport’s traditional fan-base".

It tells me the marketing boys and girls are trying to bring in more money into the game.  Maybe they are panicking as they can now see the demise of the big two (Federer & Nadal - despite one last hurrah) as well as the big four (add Djokovic & Murray into that equation - both turning 30 this month).

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by temporary21 on Thu 18 May 2017, 9:34 am

The bit I liked was the 5 set first to 3 format of sets

That's how I play tennis elbow.

Cool idea I reckon. Get a tourney with some real money in it.

But keep it away from me slams

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by barrystar on Thu 18 May 2017, 10:39 am

temporary21 wrote:The bit I liked was the 5 set first to 3 format of sets

That's how I play tennis elbow.

Cool idea I reckon. Get a tourney with some real money in it.

 But keep it away from me slams

I can't be doing with that I'm afraid - tennis scoring has to cope with the huge advantage of being server. I think that, at least in good men's tennis, the drama surrounding the importance of service breaks is as close to being the one feature that marks the game out as any other - I mean its particular rhythm both as participant and spectator. To give up the need to break service to win a set at the highest echelon of the sport is way too risky.
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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by temporary21 on Thu 18 May 2017, 11:06 am

There's still a tiebreak at 3-3

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 18 May 2017, 11:39 am

I'm with barry on this. First to 4 sets is a really bad idea. Most sets will be a tb. Or if you get off to a bad start you've lost it. No drama of coming back from 5-1 or 5-2. It would certainly lessen the interest in the sport for me.
Also no net cord and sudden death deuces - so basically could be 3-2 down receiving, get to deuce and then lose the set on a serve which hits the net and dribbles over. Why introduce more luck into any sport? Why not also then do away with hawkeye and let the luck of a bad call decide the outcome?

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Guest82 on Thu 18 May 2017, 12:20 pm

I really like the shot clock idea. Think they should bring that in regardless.

It will stop what is, basically, cheating.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Guest on Thu 18 May 2017, 12:20 pm

I think there should be bonus points from the social media audience, where kids phone in on premium rate lines.  And there should be dancing girls and hoopla, and rock and roll, and poetry readings, and hidden traps with pressure sensors under the court and all sorts of exciting stuff like.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 18 May 2017, 12:22 pm

No name Bertie wrote:I think there should be bonus points from the social media audience, where kids phone in on premium rate lines.  And there should be dancing girls and hoopla, and rock and roll, and poetry readings, and hidden traps with pressure sensors under the court and all sorts of exciting stuff like.

Haha. If the crowd don't like a player, they could vote them out.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Calder106 on Thu 18 May 2017, 12:59 pm

Guest82 wrote:I really like the shot clock idea.  Think they should bring that in regardless.

It will stop what is, basically, cheating.

Agree with this plus the 5 minute warm up rule. Wouldn't mind seeing how the 'no let' and 'no ad' works in competition before having a strong view on the whether it improves the game or not. As for the first to 4 sets, getting coaching albeit not on court, and letting people wander in during games (which seems to be what is implied) not for me.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Eyetoldyouso on Thu 18 May 2017, 1:00 pm

No name Bertie wrote:I think there should be bonus points from the social media audience, where kids phone in on premium rate lines.  And there should be dancing girls and hoopla, and rock and roll, and poetry readings, and hidden traps with pressure sensors under the court and all sorts of exciting stuff like.

And random penalties for stepping on a white line.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by temporary21 on Thu 18 May 2017, 1:46 pm

Oh I agree that it shouldn't be rolled out to the main tour

The odd new 250 tourney here and there might be a breath of fresh air though

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Henman Bill on Thu 18 May 2017, 3:15 pm

I think there are a mixture of things being tried out for perhaps later use on the main tour (shot clock and maybe shorter warm up) and things done just to sex up this tournament. I don't think the 3-3 sets is being seriously considered for the main tour. No thanks. No let rule I don't like.

Sudden death at deuce I do like, but perhaps not for grand slams or Davis Cup, more for exhibitions and perhaps I could see it in the world tour finals (singles) at most.

If nothing else the try outs will generate more interest in this specific event.

Coaching - does that mean you will just hear someone shout out "Play more to his backhand." Or will they come up with some random code and people will be shouting out things like "Green duke seven on the next point."

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Haddie-nuff on Thu 18 May 2017, 3:24 pm

Guest82 wrote:I really like the shot clock idea.  Think they should bring that in regardless.

It will stop what is, basically, cheating.

Agreed and then it will be applied to every player rather than a targeted few

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Guest82 on Thu 18 May 2017, 4:15 pm

Henman Bill wrote:I think there are a mixture of things being tried out for perhaps later use on the main tour (shot clock and maybe shorter warm up) and things done just to sex up this tournament. I don't think the 3-3 sets is being seriously considered for the main tour. No thanks. No let rule I don't like.

Sudden death at deuce I do like, but perhaps not for grand slams or Davis Cup, more for exhibitions and perhaps I could see it in the world tour finals (singles) at most.

If nothing else the try outs will generate more interest in this specific event.

Coaching - does that mean you will just hear someone shout out "Play more to his backhand." Or will they come up with some random code and people will be shouting out things like "Green duke seven on the next point."


I quite enjoy the drama of a nine minute service game with multiple deuce's. Often get the feeling that a game like that can give real momentum.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Guest82 on Thu 18 May 2017, 4:17 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:
Guest82 wrote:I really like the shot clock idea.  Think they should bring that in regardless.

It will stop what is, basically, cheating.

Agreed and then it will be applied to every player rather than a targeted few

Yes it should be. Some of the top players (obviously Nadal and, sometimes, Djokovic) are amongst the worst.

I think a shot clock will take any questions of favouring or picking on a player out of it.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Guest on Thu 18 May 2017, 4:26 pm

I don't like the shot clock for several reasons.  People will be watching the clock rather than watching the players preparing to serve and serving.   It could distract the players.  Spectators could start countdowning and distract the players.  The umpire couldn't take into account a noisy crowd or a protesting player - the countdown clock just keeps on countdowning.  I guess the clock would have to be seen by all spectators - so would need to be prominent and probably at least two of them.  When it is marginal (24 to 26 seconds say) there could be complaints from the players - the opposing player could complain, spectators could complain.  I see this as a nightmare.  It has to be done for every single point.  What about lets and second serves - does the timer start again.  So I don't like the idea.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Haddie-nuff on Thu 18 May 2017, 5:13 pm

I cant say I'm totally in favour .. however it does take out the possibility of any one/or more being singled out for time violations, Rafa is definitely on the top of the list as he has been under the microscope so often, but then comes Novak, Andy and Delpo..to name but a few so in order to take away any idea that one player is being penalised more than an other by the umpire then it has to be the right thing to do  imo.The present format already distracts players and if it is a noisy crowd then the onus is on the umpire to do something about it .. frankly I do not think the umpires use their authority enough in this respect..

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by temporary21 on Thu 18 May 2017, 5:19 pm

Don't mind about the shot clock either way. One can always allow time wasting to be at the discretion of the ref like in snooker if not

I'd be more interested. However I don't believe the online future about it is typically independent from an obsession with rafa and roger

Too often you see it as a goat proxy war rather than an interest to better the sport


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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Guest82 on Thu 18 May 2017, 5:23 pm

Someone (the umpire?) would have to start the clock at the end of each point. So they could use discretion for a big point/lot of crowd noise etc.

I forgot about Del Potro, he's terrible for time between points too.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by temporary21 on Thu 18 May 2017, 5:30 pm

Yeah I mean they could stop it if the crowd is loud

You could even give players a time extension per set or something like snooker
You could preserve the tension of waiting for a big point to start that way

Or just let the umpires use much more discretion.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by laverfan on Thu 18 May 2017, 9:52 pm

No name Bertie wrote:I don't like the shot clock for several reasons.  People will be watching the clock rather than watching the players preparing to serve and serving.   It could distract the players.  Spectators could start countdowning and distract the players.  The umpire couldn't take into account a noisy crowd or a protesting player - the countdown clock just keeps on countdowning.  I guess the clock would have to be seen by all spectators - so would need to be prominent and probably at least two of them.  When it is marginal (24 to 26 seconds say) there could be complaints from the players - the opposing player could complain, spectators could complain.  I see this as a nightmare.  It has to be done for every single point.  What about lets and second serves - does the timer start again.  So I don't like the idea.


Most US sports have shot clocks, and neither players and/or spectators are distracted. For example, NBA has a shot-click on top of each Basket. Tennis already has the 'Let', and Umpire would be judge. Spectators do countdown, but players have become that much better at focussing. There is already a clock in many courts. If a player exceeds once or twice vs. every time is where the requirement comes from. Shot clocks (or stop watches) are meant to be activated after the umpire enters/awards a point. Today one exists on the Umpire console. Timers can/are reset in other sports that use them.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by summerblues on Fri 19 May 2017, 1:43 am

I would be ok with the shot clock and the 5 minute warm-up.

I would dislike, but could probably live with, no-let serves. I would hate coaching but if they introduced it, what could I do?

If they switched to no-ad scoring or to TB at 3:3, I would be done watching tennis.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by summerblues on Fri 19 May 2017, 1:49 am

No name Bertie wrote:I think there should be bonus points from the social media audience, where kids phone in on premium rate lines.  And there should be dancing girls and hoopla, and rock and roll, and poetry readings, and hidden traps with pressure sensors under the court and all sorts of exciting stuff like.
Haha, not sure if you saw BBC version of the article where they describe what some other sports have done, and under athletics they have:

"During the meet, flame cannons shot fireballs into the air and there were dancers as pop music blared out"

So maybe tennis can head in the same direction.  Here is the BBC article in its full glory:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/39938989

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by JuliusHMarx on Fri 19 May 2017, 9:19 am

Perhaps this could be turned around. Go to a concert with fireworks and the support act could be some athletes doing track and field.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Haddie-nuff on Fri 19 May 2017, 9:41 am

Cmon lads why not go the whole hog and take a leaf out of the boxing book
The arena would be cramned full of young male  tennis fans with these showing games/sets and match Wink


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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Henman Bill on Sat 20 May 2017, 2:42 pm

How about a cheerleading contest with some brief interludes of some American sport.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Henman Bill on Sat 20 May 2017, 2:43 pm

I think no name bertie made some great points above about the disadvantages of the shot clock, there's no doubt that there would be disadvantages, it's not just a magic solution. But I think, fundamentally being fair and just is more important than these things, therefore I think they should at least try it.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 20 May 2017, 2:59 pm

Frankly, I am not in support of these changes for a number of reasons. The shot clock could be adapted a little better by perhaps giving each player a set time per match to complete their serves. That way any random step over the time (ie 20 seconds) which may be because server has been distracted will not see them punished but if they regularly pass the permitted time then it would catch up with them in the end. The changing of the scoring system doesn't work for me. The way I look at it is that the current scoring system has been in place for so long and worked very well indeed so why change it for a total shot in the dark?
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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Haddie-nuff on Sat 20 May 2017, 3:14 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Frankly, I am not in support of these changes for a number of reasons. The shot clock could be adapted a little better by perhaps giving each player a set time per match to complete their serves. That way any random step over the time (ie 20 seconds) which may be because server has been distracted will not see them punished but if they regularly pass the permitted time then it would catch up with them in the end. The changing of the scoring system doesn't work for me. The way I look at it is that the current scoring system has been in place for so long and worked very well indeed so why change it for a total shot in the dark?

I do have to agree I'm opposed to the ideas re the scoring system. To quote the old saying 'if it aint broke why fix it' If it is the idea to attract the younger element into tennis fan base then I can only say it needs a precautionary note.. don't throw out the baby with the bath water because it is highly likely it will lose the older element. The scoring system has been in so long ..I had enough trouble adapting to hawkeye and tie breaks Smile

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 20 May 2017, 3:28 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Frankly, I am not in support of these changes for a number of reasons. The shot clock could be adapted a little better by perhaps giving each player a set time per match to complete their serves. That way any random step over the time (ie 20 seconds) which may be because server has been distracted will not see them punished but if they regularly pass the permitted time then it would catch up with them in the end. The changing of the scoring system doesn't work for me. The way I look at it is that the current scoring system has been in place for so long and worked very well indeed so why change it for a total shot in the dark?

I do have to agree I'm opposed to the ideas re the scoring system. To quote the old saying 'if it aint broke why fix it' If it is the idea to attract the younger element into tennis fan base then I can only say it needs a precautionary note.. don't throw out the baby with the bath water because it is highly likely it will lose the older element. The scoring system has been in so long ..I had enough trouble adapting to hawkeye and tie breaks Smile

Precisely. Just remember the many classic matches there have been WITH the current scoring system - too many to mention. Sure by all means tweak some other things such as warm up time before a match - make it no more than a couple of minutes as I do think currently it drags on too long.
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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by laverfan on Sat 08 Jul 2017, 2:14 am

US Open to experiment with timers.

http://www.espn.com/tennis/story/_/id/19876649/us-open-utilize-clock-serve-clothing-changes-warm-ups-qualifying
http://es.pn/2uQo5Nz


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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Guest on Sat 08 Jul 2017, 4:51 am

The only piece of technology needed for tennis to improve its watchability is the gruntometer. I have basically given up watching women's tennis because of it - and that is unfair on those tennis players that don't grunt. This phenomenon is beginning to rise in the men's game as well. At which point I will no longer follow tennis at all.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Guest82 on Sat 08 Jul 2017, 3:54 pm

Agree re the grunting.

As I said on the other thread, it is cheating.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Haddie-nuff on Sat 08 Jul 2017, 4:10 pm

Guest its annoying, aggravating, and I agree but it is not cheating.. there are no rules laid down to say you cannot grunt and until they do it is legitimate.. though I hate it too

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by temporary21 on Sat 08 Jul 2017, 4:13 pm

It's not cheating. By definition. You THINK its cheating, that's completely different

By your definition. Every player without exception is a serial cheater

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by summerblues on Sat 08 Jul 2017, 11:39 pm

I have somehow never been bothered by the grunting.  So much so that I have hard time appreciating the point of view of those who are bothered by it.  I am not saying you guys are wrong, it is just funny how different people perceive it differently.  To be honest, I barely even notice.

I do not watch women's tennis much, but grunting has little to do with it.  Henin was the last female player I would enjoy watching.  After she retired, I pretty much stopped paying attention - except perhaps for occasional bits of slam finals.

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Re: NextGen Scoring Changes

Post by Belovedluckyboy on Sun 09 Jul 2017, 3:21 pm

How can grunting be called cheating? If it is then almost all of the Atp players are cheating! Nobody among the Atp players complained about their fellow colleagues' grunting as cheating I think?

It's just so common that viewers by now should be used to them; it's unlike the women's shrieking or screeching ! Krvitova practically screeches after each point she wins, it's simply unbearable! Nothing against women's tennis, but their high pitch shrieking/screeching are simply unbearable; the men's grunting by comparison are simply so mild!

Of course there are exceptions among the men, like Granollers, Rogelio for e.g. Agut practically grunts in every point regardless of whether he's exerting his strength/power or not. And why is Rafa called a cheater just because he grunts? He doesn't grunt on every point, note that when he slices, volleys, hits his overheads, dropshots, he doesn't grunt; it's more like when he hits his big FH that he grunts, i.e. when exerting his physical strength.


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