Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

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Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 30 May 2017, 10:12 pm

Excellent piece of radio journalism from Sonia and the team.

Absolutely brilliant and insightful chapter on the 'spear tackle' and tells you everything you need to know about how the NZ national psychology is melded to the AB's. I just don't think we have a comparable national example.

Anyway take a listen if you get the time. More Lions based episodes to come during the tour;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p054fqdh

Comments are welcome

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by aucklandlaurie on Tue 30 May 2017, 11:03 pm

I liked the part when the hotel staff wouldnt carry out Alastair's request to have the morning papers delivered to his room, but did on the morning after the test, even opened up at the Sports page for him...

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by kingelderfield on Tue 30 May 2017, 11:46 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:I liked the part when the hotel staff wouldnt carry out Alastair's request to have the morning papers delivered to his room, but did on the morning after the test, even opened up at the Sports page for him...

Was it the irony?

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed 31 May 2017, 12:07 am

I wouldnt describe it as irony, more just a bit of harmless niggle, probably wasnt expected to be remembered 12 years later.

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by George Carlin on Wed 31 May 2017, 6:49 am

The most bizarre thing of all is that Woodward still wouldn't do anything differently.

For balance, I hope that the Kiwi public is slightly less hostile than they were in 2005. I remember it well. Quite enough for you to beat us on the pitch, thanks very much.
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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed 31 May 2017, 8:15 am

George Carlin wrote:The most bizarre thing of all is that Woodward still wouldn't do anything differently.

For balance, I hope that the Kiwi public is slightly less hostile than they were in 2005. I remember it well. Quite enough for you to beat us on the pitch, thanks very much.

 I dont think we are as hostile as some Brits allege.

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by George Carlin on Wed 31 May 2017, 9:12 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
George Carlin wrote:The most bizarre thing of all is that Woodward still wouldn't do anything differently.

For balance, I hope that the Kiwi public is slightly less hostile than they were in 2005. I remember it well. Quite enough for you to beat us on the pitch, thanks very much.

 I dont think we are as hostile as some Brits allege.
Very hostile answer Laurie.
Run
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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by chris_501 on Wed 31 May 2017, 9:56 am

George Carlin wrote:The most bizarre thing of all is that Woodward still wouldn't do anything differently.

For balance, I hope that the Kiwi public is slightly less hostile than they were in 2005. I remember it well. Quite enough for you to beat us on the pitch, thanks very much.

The interviews with Woodward and Campbell were embarrassing. You can see why they both got on so well.

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by TightHEAD on Wed 31 May 2017, 10:49 am

Its been 12 years and I still can't stop humming the 'Power of Four'
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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by marty2086 on Wed 31 May 2017, 11:02 am

George Carlin wrote:The most bizarre thing of all is that Woodward still wouldn't do anything differently.



Haven't had the chance to watch much of this yet but MJ talks about CW being almost robotic in his approach, found that interesting analysis

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by Winzer on Wed 31 May 2017, 11:17 am

Interesting levels of being in denial from Woodward. Clearly an odd guy and more of a fragile ego than I had realised.

Really interesting to hear the guys talking about it. I found Matt Dawson's perspective on how to cope with being in New Zealand interesting and probably spot on - don't expect them to be nice to you or even fair to you, just get on and do what you need to do. Also the players' perspective on how the All Blacks get away with things others wouldn't - I have always felt that to be the case and just don't understand it. They don't need extra advantages to be the best, they'd be that anyway! Al a reminder how the whole BOD incident really showed the whole rugby nation of New Zealand in a bad light (a bit like the John Ashworth/JPR incident), I hope they match the excellence of their rugby with an appropriate level of moral integrity and sportsmanship this time around.

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by George Carlin on Wed 31 May 2017, 11:33 am

marty2086 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:The most bizarre thing of all is that Woodward still wouldn't do anything differently.  



Haven't had the chance to watch much of this yet but MJ talks about CW being almost robotic in his approach, found that interesting analysis
Saw that and enjoyed it apart from the daft host treating Gavin Hastings as a professional cliched Scot rather than a fully rounded human being.

POC obviously hated every minute of that 2005 experience.
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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed 31 May 2017, 12:35 pm

Winzer wrote:Interesting levels of being in denial from Woodward.  Clearly an odd guy and more of a fragile ego than I had realised.

Really interesting to hear the guys talking about it.  I found Matt Dawson's perspective on how to cope with being in New Zealand interesting and probably spot on - don't expect them to be nice to you or even fair to you, just get on and do what you need to do.  Also the players' perspective on how the All Blacks get away with things others wouldn't - I have always felt that to be the case and just don't understand it.  They don't need extra advantages to be the best, they'd be that anyway!  Al a reminder how the whole BOD incident really showed the whole rugby nation of New Zealand in a bad light (a bit like the John Ashworth/JPR incident), I hope they match the excellence of their rugby with an appropriate level of moral integrity and sportsmanship this time around.

 Thats a fine example of whinging. hardly one to lecture others on sportsmanship and integrity.

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 31 May 2017, 1:15 pm

If. And it is a big if. If we win the first test it'll be very interesting to see the reaction of the team first and foremost but also the supporters and media of nz.

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed 31 May 2017, 1:25 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:If. And it is a big if. If we win the first test it'll be very interesting to see the reaction of the team first and foremost but also the supporters and media of nz.

 7.5 should the All Blacks lose the first test the New Zealand fans reaction will be nothing short of our usual high standard of Sportsmanship founded on extensive Rugby knowledge.

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 31 May 2017, 1:29 pm

Yes. I can see it now.

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by TightHEAD on Wed 31 May 2017, 1:34 pm

Kiwi's that lose are like an Aussie drunk with a chip on their shoulder!
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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by aucklandlaurie on Wed 31 May 2017, 2:02 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Kiwi's that lose are like an Aussie drunk with a chip on their shoulder!

 they bear absolutely no resemblance at all, one is a common everyday event the other very rare.

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by kingelderfield on Wed 31 May 2017, 3:24 pm

Actually I do think Woodward, for probably the wrong reasons, got close to the truth when defending his decisions by saying that the Lions did all of these bonding strategies etc. in 09 and still lost.

The point is unless there is (I was going to use the word seismic but that's inappropriate in the circumstances) a change on an extra ordinary scale, then the goal of a Lions series win in NZ is monumentally improbable.

So lets all enjoy the challenge and salute those who attempt to summit this ultimate of peaks.

And then welcome them home, hoping them improved with experience.

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 31 May 2017, 5:19 pm

I reckon if you want to know now what Woodward would have done differently, you don't ask him, as Sonja did, to go down a list of his apparent mistakes for a yes/no answer. He's too stubborn.

I thought it was revealing when he said he wouldn't change having players room alone because he doesn't think rooming together would have produced a win.

Woodward was a great proponent of getting everything 1% better. The question shouldn't be whether rooming together would have been a significant improvement, it's whether it would have made a small improvement which, could have accumulated to a larger benefit.

One of the reasons Woodard is so defensive - apart from it being his natural state - is that I'm sure he's convinced his approach would have worked against South Africa or Australia, so he rejects accusations that it was fundamentally misguided.


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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Wed 31 May 2017, 5:22 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:I reckon if you want to know now what Woodward would have done differently, you don't ask him, as Sonja did, to go down a list of his apparent mistakes for a yes/no answer. He's too stubborn.

I thought it was revealing when he said he wouldn't change having players room alone because he doesn't think rooming together would have produced a win.

Woodward was a great proponent of getting everything 1% better. The question shouldn't be whether rooming together would have been a significant improvement, it's whether it would have made a small improvement which, could have accumulated to a larger benefit.

One of the reasons Woodard is so defensive - apart from it being his natural state - is that I'm sure he's convinced his approach would have worked against South Africa or Australia, so he rejects accusations that it was fundamentally misguided.


Fundamentally he was up against one of the 2 finest (along with 1987) NZ teams I've ever seen play
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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by chris_501 on Wed 31 May 2017, 6:24 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:I reckon if you want to know now what Woodward would have done differently, you don't ask him, as Sonja did, to go down a list of his apparent mistakes for a yes/no answer. He's too stubborn.

I thought it was revealing when he said he wouldn't change having players room alone because he doesn't think rooming together would have produced a win.

Woodward was a great proponent of getting everything 1% better. The question shouldn't be whether rooming together would have been a significant improvement, it's whether it would have made a small improvement which, could have accumulated to a larger benefit.

One of the reasons Woodard is so defensive - apart from it being his natural state - is that I'm sure he's convinced his approach would have worked against South Africa or Australia, so he rejects accusations that it was fundamentally misguided.


I agree with this, and to be fair, there is a lot of good reasoning behind the reasons he made certain decisions. But ultimately it takes a good leader to accept when they got things wrong. He was the wrong man to take a Lions tour and all the short term gains needed. It really seems like it needs that old school feel, like a good bonding night out down the pub.

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by 123456789 on Fri 02 Jun 2017, 12:35 am

I do wonder if, had the Lion, won the series, that Power of Four shoite would now be considered a staple of a Lions series...

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 02 Jun 2017, 1:09 am

123456789 wrote:I do wonder if, had the Lion, won the series, that Power of Four shoite would now be considered a staple of a Lions series...
There's definitely been a tendency to damn everything about the way the 2005 tour was handled, regardless of whether it was a good idea or not. For instance, it's noticeable that the squad and management teams are getting back to Woodward's size, after being trimmed in 2009. I don't like Alistair Campbell much but most of the attacks on him seemed inspired by petty jealousies on the part of the travelling press corps.

The best takeaway from that documentary was from people who thought Woodward had good ideas but lacked the man-management ability to implement them in the compressed timetable of a Lions tour. He was explicit about splitting his squad into a Test and midweek set-up, which is unavoidable in a way, because players will always be on different training and recovery schedules. However, you can find a way to mitigate the potential disharmony. 1989, 1997 and 2009 worked well on that front. 1983, 1993, 2001 and 2005 were all disastrous, and three of those, were tours of New Zealand.

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Re: Fascinating BBC5Live Radio documentary - Lions Special; How NOT to win a series (2005)

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