Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

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Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 01 Jun 2017, 9:39 am

First topic message reminder :

So it all kicks off today with England's game against Bangladesh at the oval

My prediction is victory for Australia overall....

Should be a really entertaining tournament!
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:09 pm

154/6 in the 38th now. And the rain is now forecast to arrive around 8pm - looks like there's time to get a match in in that case.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:22 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:154/6 in the 38th now. And the rain is now forecast to arrive around 8pm - looks like there's time to get a match in in that case.

That's a lot later than was originally being forecast. That should suit Australia although l imagine they'll want to gulp down their tea and get out there again asap!

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:27 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:154/6 in the 38th now. And the rain is now forecast to arrive around 8pm - looks like there's time to get a match in in that case.

That's a lot later than was originally being forecast. That should suit Australia although l imagine they'll want to gulp down their tea and get out there again asap!

Otoh there's been some drizzle at the ground already, and someone's told Cricinfo that it's already raining in "West London" (which is a fairly broad area in fairness)
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:28 pm

181/7 in the 42nd, Tamin gone for 95
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:33 pm

181/9, 3 Wickets in 4 balls for Starc, he's on a hat-trick
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:43 pm

182 all out - Starc finishes with 4-29 after yorking the tail. Good for my fantasy team at least
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 5:13 pm

Light rain falling ...
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by wisden on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 5:37 pm

that will be it for the day...forecast is grim and only gonna get worse..

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 7:25 pm

Looks like this will be called off

Actually if you think about it Aus were likely to lose the NZ game, and win this one - so their 2pts is probably about right, in a weird round way
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 7:30 pm

Olly - fully agree with what you say although with only 4 more overs needed for a positive result, the umpires might hold off abandoning it for an hour or so yet.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 7:56 pm

they will wait until 10pm that's 2 more hours
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by dummy_half on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 7:36 am

Unfortunate to have to call the game off only 4 overs from a D/L result, but these things happen (ironic as the weather for the two weeks prior to the CT starting was very good).

Doesn't really affect Australia's position much - they still need to beat England to guarantee qualification. If England win well today, it also opens up the possibility of qualifying on NRR if the Aus v Eng game is rained off as well, and there are a few scenarios where it gets complicated.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 8:29 am

It is a bit ridiculous that they don't have reserve days for these tournaments - it happened with the last world cup too...just makes the tournament a bit of an anti climax
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 8:43 am

KP_fan wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
KP_fan wrote:India .thoroughly and comprehensively beat Pak...steam-rolled them to be honest.

India's bowling is superb.....4 seamers hitting 140+ and Shami equally capable inn reserves...
2 bowling allrounders
and a lot of inning building batsmen

India and Eng are looking like in a different zone by the look of their one game each......on a trajectory to meet in the finals

SA it should be the other semi-finalist from this group and the other group still wide open...don't rule out BD either
It could be an Ind-BD semi I think Very Happy

Sorry KP_F but there's no way BD is beating Aus, and on the basis of what they showed against Aus, they are going to struggle against NZ too.

India very impressive today - Pakistan wholly underwhelming, and with the Wahab/Amir injuries, their tournament is already over

BD can beat NZ ( they did so in Ireland triangular)....and get a rained off game vs. Aus Smile
it's a bit of wish I know...but not entirely out of the realms of possibility

so per my wish-script...BD got a rained off game vs. Aus
Now they only need to beat NZ which they did a few days back in IRE also Cool
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 8:45 am

dummy_half wrote:Unfortunate to have to call the game off only 4 overs from a D/L result, but these things happen (ironic as the weather for the two weeks prior to the CT starting was very good).

Doesn't really affect Australia's position much - they still need to beat England to guarantee qualification. If England win well today, it also opens up the possibility of qualifying on NRR if the Aus v Eng game is rained off as well, and there are a few scenarios where it gets complicated.

Weather forecast is iffy for Birmingham today - if that's another washout then you'll have:
England 3
NZ 2
Aus 2 (both on 0 NRR)
Bang 1

With NZ vs Bang & England vs Aus left to play.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 8:47 am

KP_fan wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
KP_fan wrote:India .thoroughly and comprehensively beat Pak...steam-rolled them to be honest.

India's bowling is superb.....4 seamers hitting 140+ and Shami equally capable inn reserves...
2 bowling allrounders
and a lot of inning building batsmen

India and Eng are looking like in a different zone by the look of their one game each......on a trajectory to meet in the finals

SA it should be the other semi-finalist from this group and the other group still wide open...don't rule out BD either
It could be an Ind-BD semi I think Very Happy

Sorry KP_F but there's no way BD is beating Aus, and on the basis of what they showed against Aus, they are going to struggle against NZ too.

India very impressive today - Pakistan wholly underwhelming, and with the Wahab/Amir injuries, their tournament is already over

BD can beat NZ ( they did so in Ireland triangular)....and get a rained off game vs. Aus Smile
it's a bit of wish I know...but not entirely out of the realms of possibility

so per my wish-script...BD got a rained off game vs. Aus
Now they only need to beat NZ which they did a few days back in IRE also Cool

Granted that was a dead rubber (NZ had already won the tri-series) with most of NZ's IPL players sitting out. But anything's possible ...
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 8:59 am

Possibly the most farcical way for it to end but Aus cant complain too much, by rights they shoiuld have won that and lost to NZ. In terms of table points that would make no odds for them...if anything they have still done better by rain now having a chance to qualify by a no result against england.
Lots of permutations still in this group but its also very difficult for england to blow it from here. With patchy rain and showers from lunchtime right through the evening forecast for Cardiff theres a strong chance of a NR in their game today in similar circumstances to last nights ...whoever bats first will likely get most or all of their overs but the second batting team might not get on the ground at all, highly likley it will be a DL at least. That of course does make a surprise result easier to spring but I still think Englands chances of losing are fairly slim.

Frustartinlgy tyhe Wednesday game is a day nighter which means after a forecast dry day in Birmingham it will start around the same time as the rain sets in for teh evening. Most likely a NR.
Thursdays India Sri Lanka game is also likely to be rained off, which would leave Sri Lanka still in with a theoretical chance of qualifying.
Assuming completed games in the last round ...one of SA and India will have to lose their game; that does give a shot for Pakistan or Sri Lanka to win their final game with a big NRR and sneak in through the back door.

Friday and Saturdays games could see a bit of rain but currently the forecast suggests full matches.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 9:10 am

If all of Aus & NZ's matches are washed out do they flip a coin?
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 9:15 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:If all of Aus & NZ's matches are washed out do they flip a coin?

Points, Number of wins, NRR, head to head then seeded group position. This was taken form their September 2015 ranking positions...
Aus, New Zealand, England, Bangladesh
India, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Pakistan

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 9:24 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
...

Weather forecast is iffy for Birmingham today - if that's another washout then you'll have:
England 3
NZ 2
Aus 2 (both on 0 NRR)
Bang 1

With NZ vs Bang & England vs Aus left to play.

Pete - which is interesting although today's game is at Cardiff. Wink

My experience is that it always rains in Cardiff although that may be just my bad luck. Forecast for there is a bit of everything - cloud, wind, sun, rain. May allow enough play for a positive result.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 9:29 am

guildfordbat wrote:
Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
...

Weather forecast is iffy for Birmingham today - if that's another washout then you'll have:
England 3
NZ 2
Aus 2 (both on 0 NRR)
Bang 1

With NZ vs Bang & England vs Aus left to play.

Pete - which is interesting although today's game is at Cardiff. Wink

My experience is that it always rains in Cardiff although that may be just my bad luck. Forecast for there is a bit of everything - cloud, wind, sun, rain. May allow enough play for a positive result.
Doh

And I looked up Cardiff's weather forecast last night too...
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 9:40 am

Lessons when organizing any ICC event in Eng

1) always have a reserve day...and continue from where the game stopped .....on the reserve day. Because there is ( or atleast was) a ridiculous rule of starting the match fresh on the reserve day

2) commonsensical  allocation of time based on weather forecast

BD was given full 50 overs and Aus couldn't get 20...when everyone knew there was a lot of rain coming

NZ got 48 overs and Aus could get only 10 in the rained off game.

There was enough time with commonsense to reset these games to 30 overs a side in the first inning itself.....
D/L allows for a reasonable reset of target for the curtailed first inning also 

Else ICC games in Eng will remain too muhc of a chance and lottery situations induced by weather

Imagine the Travesty....Aus might make it to semis with 3 points from 3 rained off games and finishing second  Shocked
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 10:04 am

England have lost the toss and been put into bat - team news is Rashid is back in, but for Woakes as Jake Ball surprisingly retains his place ahead of David Willey
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 10:17 am

NZ unchanged - looking forward to Boult & Southee opening up on this deck
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 10:39 am

KP_fan wrote:Lessons when organizing any ICC event in Eng

1) always have a reserve day...and continue from where the game stopped .....on the reserve day. Because there is ( or atleast was) a ridiculous rule of starting the match fresh on the reserve day

2) commonsensical  allocation of time based on weather forecast

BD was given full 50 overs and Aus couldn't get 20...when everyone knew there was a lot of rain coming

NZ got 48 overs and Aus could get only 10 in the rained off game.

There was enough time with commonsense to reset these games to 30 overs a side in the first inning itself.....
D/L allows for a reasonable reset of target for the curtailed first inning also 

Else ICC games in Eng will remain too muhc of a chance and lottery situations induced by weather

Imagine the Travesty....Aus might make it to semis with 3 points from 3 rained off games and finishing second  Shocked


Reserve days? Double the length of the tournament, massively increase costs and complicate logistics. Its not going to happen outside of the knock outs. This tournamenst strength is that its a quick turnaround unlike the crushingly long drawn out world cup. Theres no garuantee that an extra day would enable a result either, the rain is getting flagged up as an issue here because its gone on for several consecutive days.

Lets just say they had used one today, Aus needed no runs off 4 overs without getting bowled out. That would have been as much of a farce as what happened yesterday.

Putting more time in the day. Well yesterdays game could have continued play up till 22:00. Thats really the best youll get with venue restrictions on midweek games. It could have started earlier though, 11:000 rather than 13:30 would have enabled a result. Its the day nighters that are really problematic in that regard, they have much less scope for running late. Thing is its global TV audiences that really drive these start times ... its for the fans (well its for the money but lets be generous here)

On paper shortening teh games based on forcasted weather is sensible ...but the logistics and complexities of those decisions; including a large degree of subjectivity is fraught with its own problems. It would create as many controversies as it solved, and is pretty much completely unworkable during play. Something in regard to cancelling drinks breaks when teres just been a rain break would be sensible though...that really was ridiculous.

Aus progressing without winning a game? Well they might. But whats the alternative; in effect they have lost one won one so far. Drawing the next one would in most cases leave them in a tie break for second place anyway. Going out without having lost a game ..which is also possible ...same again.

The weather has been unusually bad. Some places are seeing the average monthly rainfall in the space of 7 days. June is usually one of the drier months and has long daylight hours in the England. But yeah its not a freakish event and this is a risk you carry staging events of this nature in England at any time. Cricket doesnt work well with weather. Even the advances in pitch drainage, covers, and drying techniques havent solved that. Short of hosting the games in stadia with retractable roofs nothing will.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 10:44 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:England have lost the toss and been put into bat - team news is Rashid is back in, but for Woakes as Jake Ball surprisingly retains his place ahead of David Willey

Wondering how much NZ have looked at the weather on this. Get England to bat long then they can control their innings accordingly, with the firepower up top they can go for reduced overs targets pretty well but struggle a bit lower down if they are batting 50 and lose wickets. England are left second guessing what revisions might be made, having to go out assuming they will bat 50 overs.
Couple that of course with their new ball bowlers on a cloudy morning.

Looking at the latest forecasts thouigh I fancy we wont get a full game despite the early start.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:14 am

England really have to think about "resting" Roy for Bairstow in the final group game.
Its a tough call with the long term in mind as he has shown he can be a world class opener, but with this tournament the short term objective and a guy of Bairstows ability and more importantly recent form on the bench a strong decision needs to be made.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:18 am

Only following on text so far : but was just about to say it was good that Roy had been playing proper cricket shots instead of daft improvisations ...when I see he's gone for just 13 off 23...

Surely time's up for now ? The man can play ; but at the moment he isn't contributing ; and leaving him in while a fine player in excellent form runs drinks just seems to be carrying faith and hope to levels of absurdity.

Modest run rate so far , despite the best efforts of Hales. Ball doing a bit then ?

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:19 am

Gooseberry wrote:England really have to think about "resting" Roy for Bairstow in the final group game.
Its a tough call with the long term in mind as he has shown he can be a world class opener, but with this tournament the short term objective and a guy of Bairstows ability and more importantly recent form on the bench a strong decision needs to be made.

If we can win today, and qualify they would have that "excuse" lined up - like you say, for this tournament it seems Roy may need to be dropped - go back to Surrey and refind his form for the ODIs later in the summer
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by The Loaded Dog on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:20 am

Gooseberry wrote:England really have to think about "resting" Roy for Bairstow in the final group game.
Its a tough call with the long term in mind as he has shown he can be a world class opener, but with this tournament the short term objective and a guy of Bairstows ability and more importantly recent form on the bench a strong decision needs to be made.

Need to be careful though. He might see that as another opportunity to get some more leg tattoos instead of net practice. Smile
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:20 am

alfie wrote:Only following on text so far : but was just about to say it was good that Roy had been playing proper cricket shots instead of daft improvisations ...when I see he's gone for just 13 off 23...

Surely time's up for now ?   The man can play ; but at the moment he isn't contributing ; and leaving him in while a fine player in excellent form runs drinks just seems to be carrying faith and hope to levels of absurdity.  

Modest run rate so far , despite the best efforts of Hales.  Ball doing a bit then ?

50-1 off the first 10 is decent enough - ball hasn't been doing too much, but the outfield is slower than usual due to the rainfall, so some would be boundaries have ended up being 2's
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:23 am

Thanks Olly. Makes sense.

Probably not going to be 320 today then. Any estimates as to what might be a good score on this ?

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:27 am

alfie wrote:Thanks Olly.  Makes sense.  

Probably not going to be 320 today then.  Any estimates as to what might be a good score on this ?

Bit early yet - but I'd still say England will want 300-320 par score.

Also with Roy - I think he should just go out there and go from ball one and try to hit himself back into form. A scratchy innings like today isn't who he is as a player
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by robbo277 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:31 am

KP_fan wrote:Lessons when organizing any ICC event in Eng

1) always have a reserve day...and continue from where the game stopped .....on the reserve day. Because there is ( or atleast was) a ridiculous rule of starting the match fresh on the reserve day

2) commonsensical  allocation of time based on weather forecast

BD was given full 50 overs and Aus couldn't get 20...when everyone knew there was a lot of rain coming

NZ got 48 overs and Aus could get only 10 in the rained off game.

There was enough time with commonsense to reset these games to 30 overs a side in the first inning itself.....
D/L allows for a reasonable reset of target for the curtailed first inning also
 

Else ICC games in Eng will remain too muhc of a chance and lottery situations induced by weather

Imagine the Travesty....Aus might make it to semis with 3 points from 3 rained off games and finishing second  Shocked

I think the highlighted bit is a very good idea. Umpires could get together and review the forecast, and shorten the game in advance.

Cricket really does need to make itself more flexible across the formats. They should also reduce the innings break (or lunch/tea in tests) if there is rain about, so they can turn around quicker and rest when the rain comes.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by dummy_half on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:49 am

There's a bit of being wise after the event in some of these discussions - the forecast yesterday was actually worse than it turned out, in that the rain held off for a couple of hours more than anticipated. Had the forecast been correct, there'd have only been time for about 30 overs in total so insufficient for a result to be obtained.

Today I think there's a reasonable chance of a result, as the forecast mainly seems to be sunshine and showers rather than persistent rain. Oh, but can I ask why a drinks break is necessary after 1.25 hours on a cool and cloudy day? If we again find ourselves a few overs short of a result, this sort of time wasting is unforgivable.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:51 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Thanks Olly.  Makes sense.  

Probably not going to be 320 today then.  Any estimates as to what might be a good score on this ?

Bit early yet - but I'd still say England will want 300-320 par score.

Also with Roy - I think he should just go out there and go from ball one and try to hit himself back into form. A scratchy innings like today isn't who he is as a player

Agree with that. He fiddled about against Bangladesh with that silly dink to leg , when he normally would have smashed the same ball through the off side ; and today apparently tried to play "safe" against his instinct. If there was any point in keeping him in the side it was surely for him to play his natural game.

Trouble is it has gone on a bit long now and you wonder where his head is : I really think it is courting trouble to effectively admit you are going to keep a player in a key position just on hope at the expense of picking your best team for a global tournament. Hey , Roy might suddenly produce a brilliant innings next week - but they are generally winning already without anything from him so surely adding an in-form Bairstow would increase their chances of winning these important matches anyway ? It almost says the skipper doesn't have full confidence in the rest of his troops to get the job done.
Suppose it makes a difference whether the Australia match is sudden death or a dead game. But frankly I will be a little annoyed in either case if they persist with Roy in the face of all the recent evidence.

On the flip side : nice to see Rashid back on the pitch thumbsup

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by robbo277 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:51 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Thanks Olly.  Makes sense.  

Probably not going to be 320 today then.  Any estimates as to what might be a good score on this ?

Bit early yet - but I'd still say England will want 300-320 par score.

Also with Roy - I think he should just go out there and go from ball one and try to hit himself back into form. A scratchy innings like today isn't who he is as a player

Just playing about on a Duckworth/Lewis calculator. If England were chasing 365 in 50 overs, their 84/1 off 16 at drinks would be par. With Hales and Root on form and set, Morgan on form to come in next and Stokes, Buttler and Ali all capable of smashing it out the park, England might be looking a bit higher than 320.

Southee and Bolt have also bowled half the overs so far, England might fancy the other 3 with an older ball a little more.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:03 pm

Sorry can't agree with this "reduce the overs in case it rains" stuff.

Forecasts are rarely that accurate - even yesterday the rain arrived at times a fair degree out from the predictions I was reading. You might reduce a game to 30 overs and still get drowned - or finish hours early in sunshine . And it would arguably mess with the integrity of the competition just as much as having to deal with DL results and the odd washout.
One may as well say England in June cannot be trusted let us play t20 instead.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:08 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Thanks Olly.  Makes sense.  

Probably not going to be 320 today then.  Any estimates as to what might be a good score on this ?

Bit early yet - but I'd still say England will want 300-320 par score.

Also with Roy - I think he should just go out there and go from ball one and try to hit himself back into form. A scratchy innings like today isn't who he is as a player

Just playing about on a Duckworth/Lewis calculator. If England were chasing 365 in 50 overs, their 84/1 off 16 at drinks would be par. With Hales and Root on form and set, Morgan on form to come in next and Stokes, Buttler and Ali all capable of smashing it out the park, England might be looking a bit higher than 320.

Southee and Bolt have also bowled half the overs so far, England might fancy the other 3 with an older ball a little more.

Yeah they are going pretty well now...Root coming in seems to have helped ! Maybe a good thing Roy got out when he did... Slow ground or not they are motoring nicely.
I was originally just looking at the under five per over for the first nine - which is well under what we've been seeing from them. All good now.

Hales a good fifty clap

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:13 pm

6 & out for Hales. Boult back on to see if one gets two
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by The Loaded Dog on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:22 pm

alfie wrote:Sorry can't agree with this "reduce the overs in case it rains" stuff.

Forecasts are rarely that accurate  - even yesterday the rain arrived at times a fair degree out from the predictions I was reading.  You might reduce a game to 30 overs and still get drowned - or finish hours early in sunshine .  And it would arguably mess with the integrity of the competition just as much as having to deal with DL results and the odd washout.
One may as well say England in June cannot be trusted let us play t20 instead.

Yeah, I feel the same. A minimum of say 35 overs or else it's too close to a T20. The 20 overs minimum for a 'match' with D/L just doesn't seem fair.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:25 pm

alfie wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:Thanks Olly.  Makes sense.  

Probably not going to be 320 today then.  Any estimates as to what might be a good score on this ?

Bit early yet - but I'd still say England will want 300-320 par score.

Also with Roy - I think he should just go out there and go from ball one and try to hit himself back into form. A scratchy innings like today isn't who he is as a player

Agree with that.  He fiddled about against Bangladesh with that silly dink to leg , when he normally would have smashed the same ball through the off side ; and today apparently tried to play "safe" against his instinct.  If there was any point in keeping him in the side it was surely for him to play his natural game.

Trouble is it has gone on a bit long now and you wonder where his head is : I really think it is courting trouble to effectively admit you are going to keep a player in a key position just on hope at the expense of picking your best team for a global tournament.  Hey , Roy might suddenly produce a brilliant innings next week - but they are generally winning already without anything from him so surely adding an in-form Bairstow would increase their chances of winning these important matches anyway ?   It almost says the skipper doesn't have full confidence in the rest of his troops to get the job done.  
Suppose it makes a difference whether the Australia match is sudden death or a dead game.  But frankly I will be a little annoyed in either case if they persist with Roy in the face of all the recent evidence.

On the flip side : nice to see Rashid back on the pitch thumbsup

Complete agreement. By no means write him off as a player but this run extends well before the tournament including most of his domestic/IPL performances. Its more than just a case of a bit of misfortune and a good innings being just around the corner.

(Note how much a similar slating of Moeen from me pushed him to a match winning innings against SA Whistle )

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:27 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
KP_fan wrote:  Shocked


Reserve days? Double the length of the tournament, massively increase costs and complicate logistics.  This tournamenst strength is that its a quick turnaround unlike the crushingly long drawn out world cup. There's no garuantee that an extra day would enable a result either,



On paper shortening teh games based on forcasted weather is sensible ...but the logistics and complexities of those decisions; including a large degree of subjectivity is fraught with its own problems. 

--I can imagine logistics of a reserve day is problematic.....but that's a problem for ICC to ponder over and solve when they choose Eng as the country for an ICC event.
Yes if there was a reserve day...both the washed out games would have gotten 10 and 4 overs respectively I am sure and game would have concluded with result

--Yes there is likely to be confusion if games are subjectively shortened based on an judgment of the impending weather....but that's better than losing the game
and once  decision is made to have a preemptive curtailment in a tournament.....guidelines can be drawn for a committee of 3 umpires and the referee to follow for this.
after all there is confusion still even when using D/L and DRS... cricket is generally better with these rather than  without
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:29 pm

Good big of competitive cricket then : Boult coming back - very reasonably - to attack and try to enlarge the breach in the England wall ...and Morgan taking him on with aggressive pulls...

But now he's gone rather softly to Anderson Sad

NZ back in the game...

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by robbo277 on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:34 pm

According to Coney there isn't much going on with the pitch, but England have been pegged back with those wickets of Hales and Morgan. England need to settle, there's still plenty of time.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:34 pm

A few responses to some of the points in today's posts together with the odd other comment:

1. Even with all the advances in weather forecasting, it's still not something that is 100% certain and the elements love to play tricks with us. I've seen a full day's play at the Oval despite the threat from a very poor forecast whilst on the same day the players never got onto the outfield at Lord's a mile or so away. I wouldn't be happy to turn up in playable conditions as a spectator having shelled out for a 50 over game, only to find it reduced to, say, 25 overs on the say so of some boffin at the met office and for the weather to then remain ok for the rest of the day. I'm not shooting the idea down in flames but I do think it comes with this sort of risk. Tricky and not as clear cut as perhaps made out.

2. Connected with the above, I believe the organisers and administrators should pay considerable attention to the needs of paying spectators at the ground (tickets for international cricket are bl**dy expensive plus costs of travel and time) and not just the tv companies broadcasting to millions. I appreciate this is probably a naive belief and not a realistic expectation but it's still a belief I hold.

3. I think it's time the D/L system was reviewed again. I (together with some of the Sky pundits) am convinced this influenced New Zealand's decision to bowl as batting second with overs (likely to be) subsequently reduced is currently regarded as advantageous. That clearly suggests that D/L is now unfairly slanted against the team batting first which shouldn't be right.

4. I support Bairstow coming in for Roy. I said before the tournament started, give Roy two more games to see if he could find form - he hasn't and that call now needs to be made. From an England perspective, I'm not sure though about him going back to Surrey immediately. What if Bairstow or one of the other batters gets a busted finger in the nets the morning of a game? I think England will still want him with the squad.

5. For those watching and listening on Sky, Kumar Sangakkara brings the calmness and intelligence he shows at the wicket to the commentary box. An absolute class act. Biased? Yes. Wrong? No. Smile

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:40 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
KP_fan wrote:  Shocked


Reserve days? Double the length of the tournament, massively increase costs and complicate logistics.  This tournamenst strength is that its a quick turnaround unlike the crushingly long drawn out world cup. There's no garuantee that an extra day would enable a result either,



On paper shortening teh games based on forcasted weather is sensible ...but the logistics and complexities of those decisions; including a large degree of subjectivity is fraught with its own problems. 

--I can imagine logistics of a reserve day is problematic.....but that's a problem for ICC to ponder over and solve when they choose Eng as the country for an ICC event.
Yes if there was a reserve day...both the washed out games would have gotten 10 and 4 overs respectively I am sure and game would have concluded with result

--Yes there is likely to be confusion if games are subjectively shortened based on an judgment of the impending weather....but that's better than losing the game
and once  decision is made to have a preemptive curtailment in a tournament.....guidelines can be drawn for a committee of 3 umpires and the referee to follow for this.
after all there is confusion still even when using D/L and DRS... cricket is generally better with these rather than  without

Well not really: if you are going to have a reserve day you would surely try to play the full fifty overs each...which would be fine if the weather cooperated . Not so good if day two was wet also.

Lets not panic over a couple of wet days. Even in Australia the weather can mess with things . Remember that World Cup ? Not only did SA feel short changed when they had their overs reduced at the death in the semi- final ; but the eventual winners , Pakistan , only reached the knockouts through their good fortune in being rained off when in a hopeless position in a round robin match earlier in the tournament.

Rain unfortunately is too often part of cricket. We can live with it and just hope it doesn't interfere with too many more games.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:45 pm

This game nicely poised after Morgan's dismissal as Boult comes back again to attack Stokes...
England will be happy with the run rate ; but they'd hope these two bat together for a while now.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by alfie on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:53 pm

Blimey ...Root nearly run out by touched drive back on to the non striker's stumps again !
That would have been too cruel...

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 1:01 pm

alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
KP_fan wrote:  Shocked


Reserve days? Double the length of the tournament, massively increase costs and complicate logistics.  This tournamenst strength is that its a quick turnaround unlike the crushingly long drawn out world cup. There's no garuantee that an extra day would enable a result either,



On paper shortening teh games based on forcasted weather is sensible ...but the logistics and complexities of those decisions; including a large degree of subjectivity is fraught with its own problems. 

--I can imagine logistics of a reserve day is problematic.....but that's a problem for ICC to ponder over and solve when they choose Eng as the country for an ICC event.
Yes if there was a reserve day...both the washed out games would have gotten 10 and 4 overs respectively I am sure and game would have concluded with result

--Yes there is likely to be confusion if games are subjectively shortened based on an judgment of the impending weather....but that's better than losing the game
and once  decision is made to have a preemptive curtailment in a tournament.....guidelines can be drawn for a committee of 3 umpires and the referee to follow for this.
after all there is confusion still even when using D/L and DRS... cricket is generally better with these rather than  without

Well not really: if you are going to have a reserve day you would surely try to play the full fifty overs each...which would be fine if the weather cooperated .  Not so good if day two was wet also.

Lets not panic over a couple of wet days.   Even in Australia the weather can mess with things . Remember that World Cup ?  Not only did SA feel short changed when they had their overs reduced at the death in the semi- final ; but the eventual  winners , Pakistan , only reached the knockouts through their good fortune in being rained off when in a hopeless position in a round robin match earlier in the tournament.

Rain unfortunately is too often part of cricket.  We can live with it and just hope it doesn't interfere with too many more games.

This also relates to concerns in my earlier post. If play has been delayed during the first day by about an hour and a half, does the team batting second have to come back on day two to face the remaining circa 20 overs of their dig? To say nothing of the paying spectators being turfed out of the ground on day one with the result still undecided? Just not clear cut. Very difficult to have certainty of the best solution without certainty of the weather. Atm, that's still not possible.

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