Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

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Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 01 Jun 2017, 9:39 am

First topic message reminder :

So it all kicks off today with England's game against Bangladesh at the oval

My prediction is victory for Australia overall....

Should be a really entertaining tournament!
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 1:54 pm

Unbelievable. Just too good Pakistan. England are not out of this but I do not think they have as potent bowlers as Pakistan.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by alfie on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 1:55 pm

Seem to be a lot of balls they are not hitting cleanly. OK they're bowling cleverly but when Stokes cannot find the boundary in 64 balls then I reckon the pitch is a big contributor.

Will England be able to bowl as well to a plan though ? Worry about Ball ...

At least they've made 200 Smile

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by VTR on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 1:56 pm

Pretty convinced this is over. Pakistan don't have to take any risks, so even with their poor batting should be easy for them. The decision to bowl first has really worked for them

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 1:59 pm

I am not so sure that Pakistan's batting lineup is that poor is it?
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:01 pm

eirebilly wrote:I am not so sure that Pakistan's batting lineup is that poor is it?

It's OK - more that it's a slightly old-fashioned line up and struggles with "modern" scoring rates
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:02 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I am not so sure that Pakistan's batting lineup is that poor is it?

It's OK - more that it's a slightly old-fashioned line up and struggles with "modern" scoring rates

4 an over should be perfect for them then.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by alfie on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:08 pm

Key will be getting some early wickets. After all England reached 80/1 at five per over and yet battled thereafter to score at even four per over - in fact they lost nine wickets while scoring at slightly under four.

If Pakistan don't get off to a good start they won't find this a stroll in the park ...pitch is unlikely to get better for batting. Rashid may have a big role to play.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:11 pm

KP_fan wrote:
Pak's chance stands on any or all of following -->
 1)raising their game with the bat to put a defend-able total which in my view is 260-275 if pitch is similar to the last game....should they bat first
2)an inspired spell of seam bowling from any of their 4 seamer....3 of whom are exceptionally good....any time they bowl to crumble Eng.....and especially so if they bowl first.
3) Eng under performing due to pressure of k.o nature of the occasion or just law of averages catching up with them for a defeat that is due. 

Eng start as 80-20 favorites

last 10 overs...Eng scored 40 runs and lots 4 wickets..

that's what happened point No. 3) ...ungraciously it's called Choking.

Morgan as a captain.....when he sees its not going his way....just gives up...I feel

and we may see the same sense of resignation in Morgan's handling of fielding / bowling also


Pak meanwhile , know they need 200 and hence won't have to take the risks that a side does batting first trying to set a total of 300
this is what Pak wanted and their bowlers have given their batsman the luxury to pace the inning well without an hurries
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:12 pm

Well that was a dreadful batting performance from England. Yes Pakistan bowled and (mostly) fielded well. But England showed a complete lack of intent throughout, seemed to be very nervous. For instance, that's the first time England haven't hit a 6 since the last WC (game vs NZ). With short straight boundaries, and decent but not particularly great spinners bowling so many overs, that's really surprising. Felt the tone was set when England allowed Wasim to bowl 5 overs for nothing without any sign of aggression, and that carried through the innings. A desperate shame that England went into their shells so much in the most important game for the last two years.

Having said that, the pitch is a poor one*, and Pakistan's batting not that great, so they're not out of it, but will need a great effort from the bowlers and fielders to get back into it. I actually think Pakistan should try to go quite hard early on and get well ahead of the rate if possible, as this pitch won't get any quicker or easier to bat on.

*I know commentators will say that it's a better game when there's an even contest between bat and ball, but this pitch feels too far the other way TBH. It looks really tired, balls stopping, gripping all over the place.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:15 pm

England fall 9 short of Billy's 220. They even give a delivery back in the process. Only one ball but it's always poor not to use your full allocation in my book and gives a boost to the opposition.

Pakistan did bowl well (from what I saw) and held on to one or two that you would normally expect them to spill. Furthermore, the pitch was tricky and not easy for the batters to go big. However, we never seemed to make proper allowance or adjustment for it and kept on losing wickets.

Pakistan just need to bat sensibly. They don't always but they are definitely in the box seats.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:21 pm

England dont really have bowlers with the threat level to do this. Surely even paksitan can shamble along at 4+ loose change without giving too many wickets away.

Consistent wicket taking is the only chance for England, but they just dont have that out and out strike bowler.
Rashids been in the wickets lately, but it could already be too late by the time he bowls.

Hopefuly someone will stand up but Pakistan in teh final against all the odds looks a given. The old cliche comes back ...you really cant ever discount them.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by compelling and rich on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:37 pm

need a couple early on, they get through 10 without lose weve no chance

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by compelling and rich on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:37 pm

problem being our bowlers will give plenty of gifts

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:43 pm

England, predictably, starting dreadfully with the ball, albeit Pakistan lucky with a top-edge hook for 6.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KO-KING on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:44 pm

God awful bowling will be exposed

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 2:49 pm

they should set 2 fielders out and pepper him with short stuff...this Fakhar Zamaan guy
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by VTR on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:08 pm

What a time to throw in such a dire performance. Really miss Woakes on a day like today with both bat and ball

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:12 pm

Pakistan simply cruising along. No real threat from England's bowlers as yet. Really need a wicket or 2 just to rattle the Pakistan batters.

Maybe give Stokes the ball early to give them a bit of chin music, cant hurt.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:16 pm

Fakhar slogging basically, very lucky to still be there. End of PP1, England need to get the spinners into the game asap.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:20 pm

Don't get Stokes on at first change. Has to be Plunkett and Rashid, surely?

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:24 pm

If Rashid does not come on now to try and contain these two (or even pick up a wicket or two) then this game is lost.

Morgan already seems to have given up the ghost.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:25 pm

England if anything even worse with the ball than they were with the bat so far, Wood the exception. Stokes and Plunkett with a lousy over each.

Another top edge for six, everything going Pakistan's way.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:26 pm

Looks like Pakistan trying to get as many as possible before the ball softens - England playing into their hands bowling Stokes on an off day
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:27 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:England if anything even worse with the ball than they were with the bat so far, Wood the exception. Stokes and Plunkett with a lousy over each.

Another top edge for six, everything going Pakistan's way.

Short straight boundaries in Cardiff ...
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by jimbohammers on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:27 pm

Get Rashid into the attack surely!

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:29 pm

I suspected that Pakistan's batting wasn't as bad as many would have you think...
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by compelling and rich on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:29 pm

pretty pathetic performance this for a major semi final

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:30 pm

jimbohammers wrote:Get Rashid into the attack surely!

Aye. Trouble is that Pakistan only need to milk him for 3 an over or so now - or pick off any bad balls for boundaries and block the rest - he's so much more effective when the oppo has to attack
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:31 pm

eirebilly wrote:I suspected that Pakistan's batting wasn't as bad as many would have you think...

They're not that bad. Just that they play old the start-slow-retain-wickets-and-accelerate-late style game, so struggle with scores over 300
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:33 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
eirebilly wrote:I suspected that Pakistan's batting wasn't as bad as many would have you think...

They're not that bad. Just that they play old the start-slow-retain-wickets-and-accelerate-late style game, so struggle with scores over 300

Fair dues but I also felt that they can turn it on when needed. There is very little pressure on them today which is probably why they are going for it somewhat.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:34 pm

eirebilly wrote:If Rashid does not come on now to try and contain these two (or even pick up a wicket or two) then this game is lost.

Morgan already seems to have given up the ghost.
I said this earlier....if things are not going his way....Morgan  gives up fairly early in the game...especially if the pitch is  slightly bowler friendly
and waits for the next game.....to make amends
however there may  not be a next such opportunity in his career
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:43 pm

This could be over inside 35 overs...
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:44 pm

Just a lousy day at the office for England unfortunately. No intent with the bat, scattergun with the ball, and no real energy in the field either.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KO-KING on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:45 pm

What a joke of a performance, Pakistan don't even deserve to play in the final, at least half their overs have been chucked in the tournament

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:47 pm

Eng spinners not finding the same grip that Shadab in particular did....plus Pakistanis are more deft in handling spin
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:47 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Just a lousy day at the office for England unfortunately. No intent with the bat, scattergun with the ball, and no real energy in the field either.

I preferred it when they threw these performances in for games that don't matter - how I wish to be complaining about a rubbish performance against the Aussies rather than this now!

A real shame - but fair play to Pakistan. Just much better on the day - such things can happen in knockout games
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:48 pm

KP_fan wrote:
eirebilly wrote:If Rashid does not come on now to try and contain these two (or even pick up a wicket or two) then this game is lost.

Morgan already seems to have given up the ghost.
I said this earlier....if things are not going his way....Morgan  gives up fairly early in the game...especially if the pitch is  slightly bowler friendly
and waits for the next game.....to make amends
however there may  not be a next such opportunity in his career

Morgan is a very good captain when things are going his way but when under a lot of pressure, he seems to lose direction.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:50 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:Just a lousy day at the office for England unfortunately. No intent with the bat, scattergun with the ball, and no real energy in the field either.

I preferred it when they threw these performances in for games that don't matter - how I wish to be complaining about a rubbish performance against the Aussies rather than this now!

A real shame - but fair play to Pakistan. Just much better on the day - such things can happen in knockout games

Well yes, it's a shame that England have served up comfortably their worst performance of the last two years for the most important (to date) game. Oh well. At least it'll stop them getting too cocky. Hope the next two knock-out games are better than this one.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KO-KING on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:50 pm

Morgan should be sacked, nearly as bad as de villers as captaincy

Mortaza is days better
Kohli is better
Even safraz might edge him

Only good when things go his way, never takes initiative, waits for mistakes

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:51 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:Just a lousy day at the office for England unfortunately. No intent with the bat, scattergun with the ball, and no real energy in the field either.

I preferred it when they threw these performances in for games that don't matter - how I wish to be complaining about a rubbish performance against the Aussies rather than this now!

A real shame - but fair play to Pakistan. Just much better on the day - such things can happen in knockout games

Well yes, it's a shame that England have served up comfortably their worst performance of the last two years for the most important (to date) game. Oh well. At least it'll stop them getting too cocky. Hope the next two knock-out games are better than this one.

Sure, they had a shocker against SA just prior to this tournament didn't they?
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:52 pm

KO-KING wrote:Morgan should be sacked, nearly as bad as de villers as captaincy

Mortaza is days better
Kohli is better
Even safraz might edge him

Only good when things go his way, never takes initiative, waits for mistakes

Let's not be silly. Morgan's leadership has been in no small measure responsible for England's improved ODI showings over the last two years. In the NZ and Aus games he kept his calm and made some excellent decisions under pressure when the opposition was going well. See also the second ODI vs SA where he again did a fantastic job.

He's not been great today, but it's not been helped by some ordinary bowling.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:55 pm

eirebilly wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:Just a lousy day at the office for England unfortunately. No intent with the bat, scattergun with the ball, and no real energy in the field either.

I preferred it when they threw these performances in for games that don't matter - how I wish to be complaining about a rubbish performance against the Aussies rather than this now!

A real shame - but fair play to Pakistan. Just much better on the day - such things can happen in knockout games

Well yes, it's a shame that England have served up comfortably their worst performance of the last two years for the most important (to date) game. Oh well. At least it'll stop them getting too cocky. Hope the next two knock-out games are better than this one.

Sure, they had a shocker against SA just prior to this tournament didn't they?

For me this one's worse. Against SA they got caught out on a green-ish pitch against some excellent new ball bowling, and you can't really recover from 20/6. Today they were in a decent enough position but then proceeded to play the timid cricket that we'd thought left behind, and let Pakistan get on top.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by alfie on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:55 pm

eirebilly wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
eirebilly wrote:If Rashid does not come on now to try and contain these two (or even pick up a wicket or two) then this game is lost.

Morgan already seems to have given up the ghost.
I said this earlier....if things are not going his way....Morgan  gives up fairly early in the game...especially if the pitch is  slightly bowler friendly
and waits for the next game.....to make amends
however there may  not be a next such opportunity in his career

Morgan is a very good captain when things are going his way but when under a lot of pressure, he seems to lose direction.

In fairness , he did OK in the group games against NZ and Australia. But I do feel his captaincy has been rather over praised : his main attributes are an example with the bat and a willingness to let his players express themselves. Tactically he's nothing special.

Have to congratulate Pakistan today ...they've been excellent. Sadly , England have had a shocker. And facing an inspired foe on a slightly awkward surface has shown up the flaws that all those big scores on roads have been concealing...

Ironic - England might have done better today with Cook Bell and Trott Smile


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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:56 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
KO-KING wrote:Morgan should be sacked, nearly as bad as de villers as captaincy

Mortaza is days better
Kohli is better
Even safraz might edge him

Only good when things go his way, never takes initiative, waits for mistakes

Let's not be silly. Morgan's leadership has been in no small measure responsible for England's improved ODI showings over the last two years. In the NZ and Aus games he kept his calm and made some excellent decisions under pressure when the opposition was going well. See also the second ODI vs SA where he again did a fantastic job.

He's not been great today, but it's not been helped by some ordinary bowling.

But against SA, England had the runs on the board to defend somewhat. Today they don't and he is not being aggressive enough I feel. He looks resigned to defeat.

He has been a great captain, no doubt, but his captaincy has been helped but excellent players making big scores.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 3:59 pm

I guess I am just a little frustrated with today and taking it out on Morgan thumbsup
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 4:01 pm

Desperate review there...
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 4:03 pm

eirebilly wrote:Desperate review there...

Yes, it had that "more in hope than expectation" feel, the way the ball ballooned meant it probably came off the pad.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by eirebilly on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 4:04 pm

A wicket...

Another 5 in quick succession would be nice Wink
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 4:06 pm

At last, a wicket. Rashid has just started to get a bit of purchase in his last couple of overs, so maybe bringing him on a bit later wasn't so silly? Maybe the flattening of the pitch between innings is wearing off and the ball is gripping a bit again? Obviously would take a mess-up of epic proportions for Pakistan to not cruise this one, but I'd get Moeen straight back into the attack, get a few more men inside the ring, and see what happens.

Decent work by Buttler, whose keeping overall in this tournament has generally been very tidy.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by robbo277 on Wed 14 Jun 2017, 4:07 pm

eirebilly wrote:A wicket...

Another 5 in quick succession would be nice Wink

We needed something to buoy the team and hopefully get them believing a little and playing with more urgency - although we can acknowledge it's still a little hopeless!

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