Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

So it all kicks off today with England's game against Bangladesh at the oval

My prediction is victory for Australia overall....

Should be a really entertaining tournament!

[Mad for Chelsea]

Bit more energy from England in the field after that too, good to see, though probably too little too late.

[Mad for Chelsea]

though Morgan's now decided to misfield every other ball

[Mad for Chelsea]

Dunno why England have a deep cover to Babar Azam when he's just come in either

[alfie]

Pleased to see a wicket at last but its far too late in terms of runs. I know they wanted early wickets but I really think England were too desperate to break through early and gifted a lot of easy runs ...when a bit more steady pressure might have given them some chance of working on the batsmen's nerves.

Tough to defend 211 though to be fair. That batting display just wasn't good enough and pretty much settled this one.

[Pal Joey]

Yes, sub par batting performance from England; Pakistan perfecting the ambush when least expected... some steely and determined players in this team calling the shots with both bat & ball. They held on to some good catches in the field too.

[Mad for Chelsea]

It's remarkable how much in sport when you're on top things seem to go your way, whereas when you're down they go against you. The comment about Roy probably not surviving the LBW shout that Bairstow did second ball. And there Azhar top-edging a hook that lands in no-man's land (and there were a few from Fazhar earlier on, quite a few close play and misses from Azhar etc.), whereas England's mis-hits were finding fielders.

While I've been very critical of England's performance today, I feel it's fair to give plenty of credit to Pakistan also. They managed to rein England in with the ball, and have been rock solid with the bat. They've also outfielded England, and fully deserve their place in the final on today's showing.

[eirebilly]

I know people were saying that this track looked to be a par score of 270. The way Pakistan are batting, its easy a 300 par score track.

I said earlier that if England were to get 270 that it would still feel 20 - 30 runs too short.

2nd wicket, very poor shot but job done.

[eirebilly]

Taken to pieces. If India are to play Pakistan in the final, they will sit up and watch this game...

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Fair play to Pakistan - just the much better side on the day

[VTR]

What a bag of Poopie. People call South Africa chokers but England are just as bad, choking in major finals (CT 2004, 2013 and last year world T20) and now this utter debacle

[KP_fan]

Eng under Morgan play ODIs on a single  template....

a template that relies on batting primarily for winning and bowlers are  essentially meant to contain ( very much like Dhoni's mindset)

Flat Pitch where a normal side would score 300ish ....Eng have the firepower of hitters and all the way down to Nos 10 to keep going and score 350.....is their template.

when they get a pitch that assists the bowlers where 250 would be a fighting total...it doesn't fit on Morgan's template.....
his batsmen will not adjust , put their head down, build inning.....
and once he doesn't have the 300+ ....he doesn't believe it's winnable....just goes through the motions
and worst in his mind he feels entitled to getting the 300 pitch .......and "not really his fault".....if the pitch was assisting bowlers


Pakistan on the other hand are at comfort when their batsmen are expected to score no more than 250...then they can bat naturally and freely....
however if today Eng had 260-270......Pak would not have batted as freely and at this striking rate....


Who would have thought this tournament is heading towards the India Pakistan final.....reminiscent of the Benson & Hedges Cup of 1985 in Australia a 7 nation tournament.

But first India needs to focus on and get pas BD....which I am sure they will quite comprehensively

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Something I mentioned a few days back during the NZ-Ban game...but why are only three venues being used for this CT? Is there any reason? Just seems a bit bonkers to me

[VTR]

I don't agree there's no plan to defend a low total, what is lacking is quality to do so. So when the batting doesn't set the game, we will simply not win the game

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I don't agree there's no plan to defend a low total, what is lacking is quality to do so. So when the batting doesn't set the game, we will simply not win the game

Today was the first time it really showed where we missed Woakes imo - in both his batting and bowling as it turned out. A shame, but the building blocks are there for the 2019 world cup, and there are some exciting youngsters in the county game who could break through in the meantime

It's a real shame David Saker broke Finn really

[robbo277]

Something I mentioned a few days back during the NZ-Ban game...but why are only three venues being used for this CT? Is there any reason? Just seems a bit bonkers to me

I guess it's to build a local buzz around the tournament? If they put the games across 10 venues, the tournament might lose momentum.

[alfie]

Well that was very disappointing no getting away from it - Pakistan played well but England really didn't put up much of a fight...surprisingly after their fine recent record. Think they got a bit of a shock and didn't recover...

Some of what KP_f says is true , I think - though he's being a little harsh on Morgan. The truth is perhaps that England at present are a bit one-dimensional : excellent on the typical flat one day pitch but prone to failure when things are a bit "different" - especially under the extra pressure of a knock out match in a major tournament. And they perhaps really don't have a "Plan B"

Morgan often speaks of "being fearless" ... playing aggressive cricket no matter what : all very well ; and will win most games . But it also suggests a rigidity , an unwillingness to accept that sometimes you have to adjust your game plan.

Times like this the very strength of the team (the engine room of Morgan-Stokes-Buttler-Ali ) becomes a weakness : what this innings was crying out for was a Paul Collingwood at number six to think , reassess and steer them to a defendable total.

So do they change ? Not personnel , I think - at least not dramatically unless someone new makes an irresistable case ; but they do need to learn from this debacle and be ready to adapt their game in future if they are to challenge for any major tournament success. If that means a different captain then maybe Root will take up the task ; but that can wait for now.
The bowling could be stronger (as Olly says , they missed Woakes) but generally they didn't do badly in these games despite limited ODI experience . Their task after the sub-par batting was pretty hopeless and I wasn't too surprised they "lost it" a bit ...bowling far too much short stuff - but if they'd got lucky and , say , that first mistimed hook had gone to a fielder instead of for six , who knows they may have made a fight of it ? They can improve.

Well done Pakistan - you deserved to win.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I see people saying about England being unwilling to change their gameplan...surely the problem yesterday was that they were far too timid and not playing this aggressive brand of cricket - especially with the bat? Or did I miss something?

[guildfordbat]

Well that was very disappointing no getting away from it - Pakistan played well but England really didn't put up much of a fight...surprisingly after their fine recent  record.  Think they got a bit of a shock and didn't recover...

Some of what KP_f says is true , I think - though he's being a little harsh on Morgan.    The truth is perhaps that England at present are a bit one-dimensional : excellent on the typical flat one day pitch but prone to failure when things are a bit "different" - especially under the extra pressure of a knock out match in a major tournament.  And they perhaps really don't have a "Plan B"

Morgan often speaks of "being fearless" ...  playing aggressive cricket no matter what : all very well ; and will win most games . But it also suggests a rigidity , an unwillingness to accept that sometimes you have to adjust your game plan.

Times like this the very strength of the team (the engine room of Morgan-Stokes-Buttler-Ali ) becomes a weakness : what this innings was crying out for was a Paul Collingwood at number six to think , reassess and steer them to a defendable total.

So do they change ?  Not personnel , I think - at least not dramatically unless someone new makes an irresistable case ; but they do need to learn from this debacle and be ready to adapt their game in future if they are to challenge for any major tournament success. If that means a different captain then maybe Root will take up the task ; but that can wait for now.
The bowling could be stronger (as Olly says , they missed Woakes) but generally they didn't do badly in these games despite limited ODI experience . Their task after the sub-par batting was pretty hopeless and I wasn't too surprised they "lost it" a bit ...bowling far too much short stuff - but if they'd got lucky and , say , that first mistimed hook had gone to a fielder instead of for six , who knows they may have made a fight of it ?  They can improve.

Well done Pakistan - you deserved to win.

Didn't see much of Pakistan's innings so in no great place to comment. However, I too thought of Collingwood yesterday. As well as his batting, his canny medium pace could have come in useful on that tricky pitch. He would have been awkward to get away and that might have led to a rush of blood and the odd wicket. Ah well, his time has been and gone (albeit too soon). Of the players we reasonably expected to use, Woakes was definitely missed as Olly and Alfie have said.

[Gooseberry]

I see people saying about England being unwilling to change their gameplan...surely the problem yesterday was that they were far too timid and not playing this aggressive brand of cricket - especially with the bat? Or did I miss something?

Yeah the strangets part is they got off to a good first 5 overs but as soon as Pakistan started making bowling changes got tied down and collectively went into their shells.

Stokes was scoring at 3 an over in the middle...that from the impact player. Hes exactly the sort of player you expect to stand up in these situations, his reputation is forged on game turning innings with bat and or ball and standing up when the going is tough.

I honestly think theyve finally started to feel teh pressure that led to previous teams collectively under performing, and lost their "nothing to lose" attitude. They've had some good batting performances in this torunament but none with the real devil may care attitude they showed before the winter. Some of that may have come from coach and captain losing their bottle and instructing a " make sure you dont lose" approach, but that would be a bizzare turn to make if they have. My feeling is that its more a deep rooted reaction to the sense of expectation around a home series, individual players and collectively as a team they have let that affect the way they approach batting.

Maybe 3rd SA ODI disaster was a warning sign of mental fragility of the batting lineup.

The bowling was poor too but the game was all but lost before the first ball went down. We cant really be looking to lay blame there.

That said all teams do have bad days once in a while. We saw India fall apart against Sri Lanka, and South Africa have had plenty of their own flumps at this tournament. Nature of the game? Who knows.

Certainly I still think England have the collective ability to be a champion side, and up untill yesterday were the best performing team in the competition. No need to rip up the team or fudamentaly change anything...they do need to work on their mental game though. New players are being given a chance in the T20s then the focus shifts to tests. Most of these players will be back in the front line for those ...I hope they get their heads straight and dont let this flump break them. Some time off in county cricket away from the spotlight is ideal.

[Gooseberry]

Well that was very disappointing no getting away from it - Pakistan played well but England really didn't put up much of a fight...surprisingly after their fine recent  record.  Think they got a bit of a shock and didn't recover...

Some of what KP_f says is true , I think - though he's being a little harsh on Morgan.    The truth is perhaps that England at present are a bit one-dimensional : excellent on the typical flat one day pitch but prone to failure when things are a bit "different" - especially under the extra pressure of a knock out match in a major tournament.  And they perhaps really don't have a "Plan B"

Morgan often speaks of "being fearless" ...  playing aggressive cricket no matter what : all very well ; and will win most games . But it also suggests a rigidity , an unwillingness to accept that sometimes you have to adjust your game plan.

Times like this the very strength of the team (the engine room of Morgan-Stokes-Buttler-Ali ) becomes a weakness : what this innings was crying out for was a Paul Collingwood at number six to think , reassess and steer them to a defendable total.

So do they change ?  Not personnel , I think - at least not dramatically unless someone new makes an irresistable case ; but they do need to learn from this debacle and be ready to adapt their game in future if they are to challenge for any major tournament success. If that means a different captain then maybe Root will take up the task ; but that can wait for now.
The bowling could be stronger (as Olly says , they missed Woakes) but generally they didn't do badly in these games despite limited ODI experience . Their task after the sub-par batting was pretty hopeless and I wasn't too surprised they "lost it" a bit ...bowling far too much short stuff - but if they'd got lucky and , say , that first mistimed hook had gone to a fielder instead of for six , who knows they may have made a fight of it ?  They can improve.

Well done Pakistan - you deserved to win.

Didn't see much of Pakistan's innings so in no great place to comment. However, I too thought of Collingwood yesterday. As well as his batting, his canny medium pace could have come in useful on that tricky pitch. He would have been awkward to get away and that might have led to a rush of blood and the odd wicket. Ah well, his time has been and gone (albeit too soon). Of the players we reasonably expected to use, Woakes was definitely missed as Olly and Alfie have said.

Yeah Kevin Pietersen, Yoda and Chuck Norris might have been helpful too but its not like the selections in this team were in any way controversial. Nor can we excatly look to injuries as an excuse. Woakes would only have marginaly improved the batting and its highly unlikely his nbowling would have turned the game...although possibly could have made the result a little less embaressing.
This was a collective failure.

No doubt had Stokes scracted out another 20 runs at 3 an over in the Collingwood nugget style everyone would still be slating him for just scoring too slowly and limiting their final total. Most of the top 7 are established test batsmen and capable of playing long controlled innings "on their day" as well as the agressive brand of cricket that served to ODI side well. They failed to execute either approach effectively. I really dont buy the argument that we are either too loaded toward attacking players or that they somehow chucked their wickets away....they simply werent good enough.

Indeed India too a slating for scoring too slowly in and not having enough attacking batsmen up top in their loss. It seems you cant win when you lose.

[KP_fan]

India will go in with an unchanged side on what is at least a 300 runs pitch in Birmingham.....
India's batting has fired every time so far......But so has Bangladesh's against Eng and NZ.

300  won't be enough....if BD can get the pressure of the occasion out of their mind and can bat fearlessly..it's  "chasable"....

But it's their first ever ICC tournament semifinal....and we don't know if they can play without fear or letting the situation get to them

I think India would like to win the toss and bat first....... and BD would like to chase, if they win the toss.. because that's more comfortable for them then setting a total....and falling short of setting an optimal target

[alfie]

Well I agree with one thing Goose said there : the batsmen just weren't good enough. But a few other bits - either he's deliberately misreading what we are saying or not reading too closely...
No one is making excuses . Just pointing out Woakes wasn't there which was a pity ; and that having a full book of bashers lined up 4-7 wasn't ideal today.
Most of the top seven are not established Test batsmen. Morgan and Hales lost their places for good reason ; Buttler has never done anything at Test level with the bat , and even Moeen is better at seven/ eight - though there may be some hope he can move back up the order successfully the jury is still out...and even Stokes is in the team as an allrounder , whose batting is improving rapidly. (No problem with that , by the way - they suit ODIs . But let's not get carried away with their credentials )
I'm not bagging the players for not playing their shots - or for committing suicide : though some did one or the other Just pointing out that they failed to adapt their games successfully to the situation on this occasion.
Hardly controversial ?

[KP_fan]

overcast and rain in the air....
BD have decided to not hold back......if they have to go down...they will go down swinging

[KP_fan]

they have swing their bats hard and have had two big overs......with 3 boundaries each...and yet their RR is only 4 and have lost two wicktes

its not working their approach

[KP_fan]

Tamim lucky to be bowled of a no ball
and BD get 2 good overs upto 5rpo now

[jimbohammers]

India underestimating Bangladesh here. Boundaries flowing. Iqbal and Mushfiqur need to keep going for another 10 overs

[KP_fan]

and now the cavalier attitude of Tamim and Mushfiqur paying back......these two and shakib and mahmudullah.....are where all the runs will come on

BD looking set for 300

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

Great article on Cricinfo today on the death of the dibbly dobbly http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/1103208.html

[KP_fan]

Bring Bumrah

[Hammersmith harrier]

That 6 from Tamim was majestic, the footwork to get to the pitch of it was superb.

[Mad for Chelsea]

Think India need a change of pace, BD dealing very easily with the spinners, and the LHB-RHB combination makes it tougher for them. Still, looks a very flat pitch, and BD's bowling isn't up to much IMO, so even 320-330 would only be a decent, rather than good, score.

[jimbohammers]

Pandya's mistake of overstepping is proving costly, Iqbal looking in good touch and moves onto 68 off 74 balls

[KP_fan]

Jadhav is a spinner ( who doesn't spin much)....
he has this delivery that he slides with a side arm action like Malinga....
very effective as it catches the batsman by surprise

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Do love watching tamim bat - some glorious strokeplay

[KP_fan]

Indians pulling it back a bit.
we need to be chasing no more than 265

[guildfordbat]

Well I agree with one thing Goose said there : the batsmen just weren't good enough.  But a few other bits - either he's deliberately misreading what we are saying or not reading too closely...
No one is making excuses .  Just pointing out Woakes wasn't there which was a pity ; and that having a full book of bashers lined up 4-7 wasn't ideal today.
Most of the top seven are not established Test batsmen.  Morgan and Hales lost their places for good reason ; Buttler has never done anything at Test level with the bat , and even Moeen is better at seven/ eight - though there may be some hope he can move back up the order successfully the jury is still out...and even Stokes is in the team as an allrounder , whose batting is improving rapidly.  (No problem with that , by the way - they suit ODIs . But let's not get carried away with their credentials )
I'm not bagging the players for not playing their shots - or for committing suicide : though some did one or the other     Just pointing out that they failed to adapt their games successfully to the situation on this occasion.
Hardly controversial ?

Alfie - a commendably restrained response.

[KP_fan]

Indians pulling it back a bit.
we need to be chasing no more than 265

and Ind won't be chasing more than 265

very , very well done by India on a placid batting pitch with nothing in it for any kind of bowlers.....to restrict BD from 161-2 in 30 overs to 264 only 

aggression , intent and rapid changes from kohli.

You'd expect India to get this without any hiccups....but....you never know....cricket is proverbially the game of glorious uncertainties .....BD have the runs on the board and a good spell by seamers in the first 15 overs to pluck out 3 Indian wickets and a game is on.

India needed their 4th seamer today in Yadav...next game they should drop Ashwin and bring Yadav

[VTR]

I'd like to be the first to congratulate India on winning the Champions Trophy! I can't see them having any problems chasing this down, and Pakistan will probably be back to their usual awful selves in time for the final

[Gooseberry]

Well what a prediction from KPF!

Odds on an Indian win from here for sure. But by no means a given.

Same for the final... Im not gettimg stung betting against Paksitan again!

[KO-KING]

India may have already played the final (south Africa)

[KP_fan]

A walk in the park then...india didn't break any sweat ...and were looking likely to get to 375 had they wanted to

BD's only chance of putting india in some stress was in getting to 330....and even then they would have not won probably.
what a shame ..on a pitch like this we did not get to see a battle of 350 runs between Ind and Eng.

[Gooseberry]

Who knows kpf...you may get to see a similar battle in the final with an even more intense rivalry.
Pakistan just trampled the second best team in the tournament...dont write them off as a competitive force just yet.

One things for sure people will still want tickets for the final

[KP_fan]

Who knows kpf...you may get to see a similar battle in the final with an even more intense rivalry.
Pakistan just trampled the second best team in the tournament...dont write them off as a competitive force  just yet.

One things for sure people will still want tickets for the final

Pak now is a much more organized and confident side compared to a flaky #8 they appeared in the first game
They are less likely to win, but very dangerous and a win for them will only come on the back of their bowlers ripping out the Indian top order cheaply and dismissing them for a lowish total.......it's highly unlikely to be the battle of 350s.
It India get 350...pak can't get close
If Pak bat first their best bet is to put 275ish on board and bowl out of their skins.

India's top 3 are in imperious form....and look at Kohli scores of 96*, 75* and 81* and a 0....he's scored 8000 runs at average 55 and a SR of 91%....he's never been out of form over 180 odd career games

A devil's advocate would say India's middle order has not been exposed to tough run chases in the tournament....yes true but that's the side effect of an extremely positive situation of top 3 being in super form.
Yuv, Dhoni and Pandya have had some outings.....only Jadhav had one cameo.....and likes of ashwin, jadeja and Bhuvi all very capable haven't had any hit in the middle but are coming off a good IPL season.

The only doubt I have is ashwin.....he is not looking threatening....I would bring Yadav back in place of Ashwin, but I guess Kohli will retain him for the final.

In the end a bumper, bonanza tournament for the organizers and sponsors....to get 2 India-Pak games one of which is a final

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The tournament as a whole has suffered from a lack of close finishes imo, as well as the use of only 3 venues. To completely neglect the north of England in terms of venues is, well, in my opinion utterly bizarre and has hurt the tournament. Cardiff whilst a good venue, really hasn't had the crowds to justify it being one of the "top three" so to speak.

But the story of the resurgence of Pakistan and the continued growth of Bangladesh has been good to see. And as KP_F rightly points out the ICC and its sponsors must be delirious at the thought of an India-Pakistan final and all the money that will bring!

(As an aside I note Scotland beat Zimbabwe in an ODI today - backing up their pre tournament victory over Sri Lanka. Scotland seem in good form, but the demise of Zimbabwe is sad too see. Also note that Afghanistan drew their ODI series with West Indies. Surely it's time for them to be included at the top table as a full member, whilst we continue with this system of full/associates?)

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Ready for the India victory procession today?

[KP_fan]

india win the toss and field first....
based on the premise that Pak is better chasing a smallish score....
and  when batting first...they are likely to collapse.....
two problems with this approach:

1) violated the play to your strength theory i.e Ind to bat first post 350 and Pak out of the game
2) runs on the board are alway better than chasing in a do or die game

anyway it is what it is......the Billion plus " followership" game is on....

Ind retain ashwin...... also that doesn't matter anymore...

cricketing and skill component is only 20%.....80% of it is mental and nerves

[KP_fan]

tuck, tuck, tuck him for room and then slide one across...Zamna nicks and Bumrah finds that he bowled a big no ball....

excitement , drama , strategic bowling and Pak surives with some bonus runs too

quality from India
luck favoring pak

[jimbohammers]

90-0.
Good start for Pakistan here

[KP_fan]

edgy, chancy scratchy , lucky...pak has been all of that ...but haven't lost a wicket and gotten runs on the board....

India need wickets.....and if they get one, they will get  a few and will pull Pakistan back.....
wicket needed badly and quickly

[KP_fan]

ashwin proving to be the weak-link as a specialist one of 4 bowlers....as i feared.....Yadav would have been better
now...he has one chance to redeem when he comes back for his return spell

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