Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

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Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:39 am

First topic message reminder :

So it all kicks off today with England's game against Bangladesh at the oval

My prediction is victory for Australia overall....

Should be a really entertaining tournament!
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KO-KING on Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:14 pm

Pitches are so flat, what chance does any spinner barring leg spinners have a chance

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:24 pm

india should not be bowling spinners at Zaman...he is taking the game away from India
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by jimbohammers on Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:25 pm

Ashwin getting some tap. 17 runs from his over.

Pakistan 167-1 now. Motoring

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:38 pm

well India made the mistake of picking ashwin.....
first the pitch has nothing for spinners...and atleast something if you can bowl upto 90mph...hence yadav would have been better.

and in general Ashwin should be "preserved" for tests and likes of Kuldip, Karn, Chahl and Krunal tried as spinners in limited over games
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:22 pm

so 339 needed by India...
pitch is flat
they are the best batting line-up in the world
at stake is the BIG prize

go get it and show you are worth it....

they should not lose any wickets in first 10 overs and not more than 2 in 30 overs then its game on
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by guildfordbat on Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:39 pm

My initial thoughts - based far more on any knowledge of the Oval than these teams - is that 338 won't be enough today.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:43 pm

Will be interesting. India have a great batting line-up, but the top order have been so good that the middle and lower orders have hardly batted all tournament, and with a decent score to chase and a big prize at stake it might not be so easy coming in cold.

Pakistan's bowling has been very good since the first game, but they haven't been put under much pressure. Expect India to as usual go for the slow and steady build, so Pakistan should go hunting for early wickets (i.e. not open with Wasim).

For me, the keys will be Kohli and Hassan. Kohli is a master of the run chase, while Hassan has taken some key wickets in the middle-overs, and will be looking to repeat that here.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by JDizzle on Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:43 pm

Crackerjack start from Amir... At least they've got Kohli in early! Giving themselves a chance at him with the new ball.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:15 pm

India has to get thru 15 overs and life will get a bit easier then......for 90mph pacers there is a bit and India missed a lot by leaving out  yadav i say the umpteenth time.

The entire depth of Indian bating will be tested today....they have capable batsmen until no. 10
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by guildfordbat on Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:57 pm

guildfordbat wrote:My initial thoughts - based far more on any knowledge of the Oval than these teams - is that  338 won't be enough today.

Becoming very clear why no Surrey captain has ever sought out my advice at the Oval. Shocked Wink

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by GSC on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:06 pm

Extraordinary
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:25 pm

I have stated many , many times in this forum....Pandya is India's most exciting potential......he hits 140+ with the ball and 

we can all see how he is batting now......

he bats like Kapil Dev
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:36 pm

Apalling from Jadeja, absolutely apalling. Surely he has to sacrifice himself there, given how beautifully Pandya was striking the ball?

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by GSC on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:41 pm

Was fun while it lasted
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:42 pm

Jadeja promptly nicks off to slip in the very next over. Should probably avoid the Indian dressing room for a while. Idiot.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by GSC on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:44 pm

Jadeja might want to get changed in the public toilets rather than the locker room right now.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by GSC on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:46 pm

Once against England might be an upset but Pakistan have come to play with bat and ball in the knockout rounds. Worthy winners if/when they close this out.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by GSC on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:48 pm

Ashwin gone.

Pakistan on the brink
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by The Loaded Dog on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:52 pm

Massive capitulation from India under the pressure of a final. Well played Pakistan!

Good to see the trophy being shared around. Would be nice to see England win it next time.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by GSC on Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:56 pm

Crushing victory for Pakistan. Dominant from start to finish.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by GSC on Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:13 pm

Champions Trophy a good example of why I prefer a smaller tournament with better teams over a bloated schedule.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:21 pm

I like the tournament format, think it works well. I've said for a while the WC should be four groups of four, top two of each group go through to knock-out stage with QF, SF and F. Makes it a shorter and more exciting tournament IMO.

Anyway, full marks to Pakistan. They sort of wobbled their way through the group stage, and exploded into life in the kock-outs with two thumping wins over the two pre-tournament favourites. Fine performances from them clap clap

While I said I liked the tournament format, I found the actual cricket to be just a touch disappointing if I'm honest. Too many one-sided contests, and the actual quality of the cricket wasn't all that great IMO throughout despite some excellent moments.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by guildfordbat on Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:26 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I like the tournament format, think it works well. I've said for a while the WC should be four groups of four, top two of each group go through to knock-out stage with QF, SF and F. Makes it a shorter and more exciting tournament IMO.

Anyway, full marks to Pakistan. They sort of wobbled their way through the group stage, and exploded into life in the kock-outs with two thumping wins over the two pre-tournament favourites. Fine performances from them clap clap

While I said I liked the tournament format, I found the actual cricket to be just a touch disappointing if I'm honest. Too many one-sided contests, and the actual quality of the cricket wasn't all that great IMO throughout despite some excellent moments.

That was actually how the Football WC of 1966 was structured. It worked well and didn't do England any harm! Wink

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:30 pm

Feel sick with a result like that in this event. Pakistan are a lousy country and they came here in 2010 and match fixed. Brought the game of in disGrace. We got robbed by the ICC. England where the real winners

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:42 pm

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Feel sick with a result like that in this event. Pakistan are a lousy country and they came here in 2010 and match fixed. Brought the game of in disGrace. We got robbed by the ICC. England where the real winners

What a beautifully bitter response. Pakistan were clear and deserved winners - they soundly beat the two countries who people widely held as the best in the land in the semi final and final, as well as tournament favourites South Africa in the groups.

A magnificent comeback and performance from the whole team throughout. Lovely stuff
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by jimbohammers on Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:59 pm

Well done to Pakistan, brilliant performance.

India too complacent?

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by KP_fan on Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:53 pm

KP_fan wrote:india win the toss and field first....
based on the premise that Pak is better chasing a smallish score....
and  when batting first...they are likely to collapse.....
two problems with this approach:

1) violated the play to your strength theory i.e Ind to bat first post 350 and Pak out of the game
2) runs on the board are alway better than chasing in a do or die game

anyway it is what it is......the Billion plus " followership" game is on....

Ind retain ashwin...... also that doesn't matter anymore...

cricketing and skill component is only 20%.....80% of it is mental and nerves
It was a hurtful day for an Indian supporter....and some thoughts after the dust settles on the disappointment ....I go back to may post at the start of the game as above

and I think I was quite accurate then in the morning......India made one mistake that cost them gravely and a a cardinal sin.....

1) Ashwin at best is a  moderate ODI spinner especially overseas.....and he is far from best recuperating from injury, missing IPL and with no competitive  cricket under his belt....and on a placid pitch like this he was going to be fodder......the signs were in the BD game...the disdain with which Bangla batsmen treated him...

and selecting him was a mistake that cost India gravely...they smashed him.....he lost confidence , went defensive and became further  impotent.
The damage was not in juts the 70 runs he gave...but more importantly he kept out the 90mph Yadav

--it was pace that induced some chances and kept the batsmen honest....Bumrah had Zaman caught behind for 3 and induced a few half chances.....Bhuvi and Pandya were respectable ...and 20 odd overs of spin went for 160 odd runs.....creating ZERO chances,
One more fast bowler in the sdie....hitting the deck hard at 90mph... few more chances created and taken and India could have restricted them to 275

chasing 275 is a different ball game than 340

(2) chasing by choice is a cardinal sin in a high pressure final...runs on the board are one and a half times time more for the team chasing...and once Amir produced his champion spell going into 7th gear.......the middle order became hopeless and lower middle order barring Pandya despondent and just gave up....with consequences of the defeat / fan reaction more on their mind.


(3)A word on Pandya.....I have so many times called him the most exiting talent in India.....he was half a Ben stokes a year back and now 2/3rd of a Stokes now...and rapidly rising.
his batting today was reminiscent of Kapil dev...and he can bowl at 140 kph+ too......it's a  matter of time before he plays test cricket and  that will further improve his bowling.....

He was on to something special today the way he was striking the ball with no fear...would not have won the game but would have swing momentum to put Pak on the defensive and others lower order who have the skill and just gave up would have batted with more purpose....once momentum favored them a bit....

we needed only 3 more explosive overs out of him to see the shift in momentum

I tried very very hard and still cannot figure how Jadeja , a street smart, clever and switched on cricketer....called and then did not take that run....
and worse how did he not sacrifice his wicket to keep Pandya alive for a bit longer........

lastly...India needs to try and groom wrist spinner for overseas games ( both ODIs and tests) because I have a feeling that in-spite of all the improvements we have seen from ashwin , even when he is fully fit....he may not be a match winning or game changing spinner

Kuldeep yadav is on the tour to WI for the ODIs.....hope he builds his credibility after that great debut against Aus.

Karn Sharma should also come in reckoning again as would Chahl for ODIs


Well Done Pakistan......mercurial, talented and I am quite happy to see a dawn of new era led by sarfaraz, coached by Micky Arthur....
a strong Pak is good for international cricket....only hope wI could become competitive too
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:00 am

Well. Cricket eh!
Good for the sport to see unexpected champions and teams able to beat each other by being better on the day. You can't begrudge Pakistan's route, they beat the 3 favourites along the way.
Every team had a bad day, England's came at the wrong time ...Pakistans at the right time. The cliches about them are true, talented players too often underperforming but up for the big games.

I agree with the comments above regarding the format. It's so much better than the world cup. But also yes for some reason almost all games saw one team get ahead and stay ahead. Many batting collapses. We've certainly seen the value of wicket taking bowlers.
Runs have for the most part been there for good batting ...but no so easy that we have seen truly enormous scores. Overall the pitches have been the right balance and not flat or purely for seamers.

One downer...there was a riot following the game in Leicester between Pakistan and India fans with of number of people hurt. The police were totally unprepared for it.
Sad for a city that is famed for its diversity and lack of tensions of this kind. Hopefully it's just a one off.

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:45 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Feel sick with a result like that in this event. Pakistan are a lousy country and they came here in 2010 and match fixed. Brought the game of in disGrace. We got robbed by the ICC. England where the real winners

What a beautifully bitter response. Pakistan were clear and deserved winners - they soundly beat the two countries who people widely held as the best in the land in the semi final and final, as well as tournament favourites South Africa in the groups.

A magnificent comeback and performance from the whole team throughout. Lovely stuff

Aye, his grapes are well sour.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Galted on Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:52 am

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Feel sick with a result like that in this event. Pakistan are a lousy country and they came here in 2010 and match fixed. Brought the game of in disGrace. We got robbed by the ICC. England where the real winners

What a beautifully bitter response. Pakistan were clear and deserved winners - they soundly beat the two countries who people widely held as the best in the land in the semi final and final, as well as tournament favourites South Africa in the groups.

A magnificent comeback and performance from the whole team throughout. Lovely stuff

Aye, his grapes are well sour.

I'm quite keen to try this game of in disGrace though. It's got to be better than kabbadi.
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by VTR on Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:19 pm

I didn't see that coming, I'd already awarded India the trophy before the final! I hope England have taken note, the bowling side of the game is pretty important and I think has been neglected. That needs fixing before the next World Cup, with two years now to identify a couple of better bowlers than the likes of Ball and Willey (assuming they are out there)

I think Pakistan benefited from a couple of things in the end. Experience from touring England last year, and facing four must-win games in a row. Maybe cruising through the group stages in England's case, and most of the group stage and a very easy semi-final in India's case didn't do either team any favours

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:37 pm

VTR wrote:I didn't see that coming, I'd already awarded India the trophy before the final! I hope England have taken note, the bowling side of the game is pretty important and I think has been neglected. That needs fixing before the next World Cup, with two years now to identify a couple of better bowlers than the likes of Ball and Willey (assuming they are out there)

I think Pakistan benefited from a couple of things in the end. Experience from touring England last year, and facing four must-win games in a row. Maybe cruising through the group stages in England's case, and most of the group stage and a very easy semi-final in India's case didn't do either team any favours

Interesting note about the seam bowlers there VTR...also interesting that someone on this forum has penned a little blog about it too....https://5nerdsgo.wordpress.com/2017/06/16/english-one-day-cricket-the-seam-bowling-future/

Very Happy
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by VTR on Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:42 pm

Nice blog - 2 years is a long time in sport, so will be interesting to see if any of those names make it by then. Tom Curran is definitely a decent shout. I think Ball will probably stay as a Test bowler, Willey seems more suited to T20s. Finn may flatter to deceive for the 50th time in his career, and an uninjured Stokes would be a big help

And finally, I know the ship has long sailed but Pakistan had genuine wicket-taking threat, which is why I always wanted Broad in the team as a one-off to have a tilt at winning the tournament. Surely he would have done far better than Ball?

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Gooseberry on Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:33 pm

How many other permanently injured medium pavers who have barely played any limited over cricket at all in the last 2 years took enough wickets inbthis tournament to make a significant difference?

I'm pretty sure that England lost due to their awful performance with the bat. Not (the) Ball

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by VTR on Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:46 pm

The point is, once the batting failed, we didn't really have any firepower with the new ball to make a game of it. All Pakistan had to do was see off Wood and it would be an easy win from there. We'll never know what might have happened of course, but it never looked likely we could get Pakistan in early trouble

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:36 pm

Tbh Broad has been poor in the one day cup this year, and wasn't as good in one day stuff as in tests anyways I got no problem with them sticking with what worked - and that loss was the batting fault really
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Gooseberry on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:05 pm

Ok so we should have picked players who dont exist. And Woakes who was injured. And asked Stokes to have one of his good days. And reminded Pakistan that they cant bat and had concentrated solely on their bowling.


Its not like we havent had extensive specialist coaching and development programmes for years to unearth this generation of superstar bowlers. The lack of a permanenet spin coach maybe hurt us there but its not like they have been wilfully ignoring the development of bowlers...its just we havent been good at getting genuine strike ones. I dont think its through any lack of focus, if anything theres been a disctinct move away from part time dibblers and conatining bowling toward selection on pace.




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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by VTR on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:30 pm

I'm more looking at the idea going forward. Still a lot of room for improvement. One more strike bowler would massively improve the team, and I think is needed or we will end up disappointed again. That could be Woakes, Finn may come back, Ball may even develop into one. Not many teams win things on batting alone

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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:56 pm

Woakes is our best odi bowler
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Re: Champions trophy 2017 discussion thread

Post by VTR on Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:10 pm

Yep, was a shame he broke down. Let's hope we can keep Wood fit otherwise the cupboard is bare. Two years now to develop a squad with a bit more depth

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