Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

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Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by George Carlin on Sun 04 Jun 2017, 9:12 am

First topic message reminder :

Blues British & Irish Lions
7 June 2017
KO: 19:35 NZST (8.35am BST)
Eden Park, Auckland

Live on Sky Sports, Sky Sports HD and SkyGo

Referee: Pascal Gaüzère (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. FORM:

19 June 1993: Auckland 23 - 18 British & Irish Lions

18 May 1983: Auckland 13 - 12 British & Irish Lions

23 June 1977: Auckland 15 - 34 British & Irish Lions

B. TEAMS:

Blues 
15 Michael Collins
14 Matt Duffie
13 George Moala
12 Sonny Bill Williams
11 Rieko Ioane
10 Stephen Perofeta
09 Augustine Pulu

08 Steven Luatua
07 Blake Gibson
06 Akira Ioane
05 Scott Scrafton
04 Gerard Cowley-Tuioti
03 Charlie Faumuina
02 James Parson
01 Ofa Tu'ungafasi

16 Hame Faiva
17 Alex Hodgman
18 Sione Mafileo
19 Patrick Tuipulotu
20 Kara Pryor
21 Sam Nock
22 Ihaia West
23 TJ Faiane/Melani Nanai

British & Irish Lions

Halfpenny; Nowell, Payne, Henshaw, Daly; Biggar, Webb; McGrath, Owens (captain), Cole, Itoje, Lawes, Haskell, Tipuric, Stander

Replacements: Best, Marler, Sinckler, Henderson, O'Mahony, Laidlaw, Sexton, L Williams

C. PREVIEW



Last edited by George Carlin on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 7:33 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 5:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just watching the match now. Nowell and halfpenny were shown up for pace on that first try.  How did we butcher that attempt by Payne? ! Good tackle but just shipped down the line by a succession of backs none of which committed any defender!

That's a big concern - those players would have executed that 99 times out of 100 (Hogg too in the last game) but for whatever reason they mess it up for the Lions.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 5:20 pm

Jeez. At half time. Pack have all been good. Looks really positive. Strong set piece breakdown om the whole good. The backs, all of them have played average. The kicking has all been rubbish, too long and seems to have no aim at all. I have no idea about the love in for Payne from the 1st half.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 5:29 pm

Nowell, Haskell and Halfpenny all were at fault for that try.

Nowell didn't make 1 mistake he made about 4.
Step up in level and he was exposed.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 5:33 pm

cascough wrote:It looked to me as if Best threw too early and then Itoje tried to jump but his pod weren't ready. Equally it's possible that Itoje jumped too early and Best panicked and threw it in. It's all split second.

I hope JSinckler (silent J) get's the benefit of the doubt though. He's seems to have an infectious love for the Lions and has made such a promising contribution so far.

Unfortunately for Best, he has previous with similar situations so I can see him struggling to shake this one off.

Itoje made the call, Best played to the call.
The props should have been ready

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 5:35 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Just watched the last lineout not Best fault.

Itoje made the call and the props failed to lift him.

Big screw up by Marler and Sinklar
4th different spelling of the day.

Sinckler.

There's no excuse for it. If you're posting on here, you're online, and if you're online, you can check the spelling.

Up to a point I agree (I put an a not an e)but to be honest I am finding this 606 site absolutely awful with response.
I did type the c but it didn't register.
Also Norton tells me it is not a safe site.
No problem with other sites so not inclined to change my settings

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 5:39 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Just watched the last lineout not Best fault.

Itoje made the call and the props failed to lift him.

Big screw up by Marler and Sinklar

Was Owens howler also a timing issue?

No the one thing a hooker cant blame others for is a crooked throw.

Having said that I thought Owens had a really good game today

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 5:44 pm

eirebilly wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Club sides can beat touring 'Test' teams because in those games it is not the regular 1st team that lines out and therefore they are scratch sides just like the Lions. The 'Test' v club fixtures are usually rotational affairs to give the squad players a run out, and more often than not those players have never played together en masse.
It's why when so-called A teams like the Saxons and Wolfhounds play the games are disappointing disjointed games.
Has there ever been a club side that has beaten a first choice (tier 1) Test side?

Would the Blues have beaten the All Blacks? No, because they are not a collection of individuals expected to play like a veteran team - they actually are a veteran team.

Would the Blues have beaten the Junior All Blacks? Maybe, because they are a collection of individuals without the experience of playing regularly together just like the Lions.

The only miniscule chance that Gatland now has is to play his Test 23 every Saturday from now on and hope that they learn how to play together. Chopping and changing just keeps sending him back to Old Kent Road without passing GO.

Munster beat the AB's back in 78 thumbsup
Wasn't their full Test side though Billy

It was a full test side bud. They were unbeatable that tour but fell to Munster.

Just admit that ye have been proven wrong this time thumbsup

I'll admit I am wrong - no problem doing that. I had been told by a Munster fan a while back (round about the time the play came out) that it wasn't the Test team and there were about half a dozen of the Test players rested for their first Test (v Ireland) four days later. Do you have the AB team that lined out that night?

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 5:46 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Just watched the last lineout not Best fault.

Itoje made the call and the props failed to lift him.

Big screw up by Marler and Sinklar

Was Owens howler also a timing issue?

No the one thing a hooker cant blame others for is a crooked throw.

Having said that I thought Owens had a really good game today

So did Owens play better than Best in the first game (forgetting the one squint throw each)?

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 5:46 pm

Gustcott usually talks a load of crap but he speaks a lot of sense here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/40190767

I hope there is a change in mentality - none of this 'ah we did OK and are getting better you know, we'll do our best next time'

I want the players to be raging they lost that - I want them to be desperate to pull on the jersey next time and make ammends. They may well be like that but it doesn't look like it from what we're seeing on the pitch and hearing in interviews.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 5:51 pm

re hooker too close to call I'd say - one position that is a long way from being decided

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by Redman on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 5:53 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Just watched the last lineout not Best fault.

Itoje made the call and the props failed to lift him.

Big screw up by Marler and Sinklar

Was Owens howler also a timing issue?

No the one thing a hooker cant blame others for is a crooked throw.

Having said that I thought Owens had a really good game today

So did Owens play better than Best in the first game (forgetting the one squint throw each)?

Owens was very good today.  It really depends on what Gatland is looking for.  Owens was great in the loose.  Best on the other hand offered a real breakdown threat and was part of the scrum that monstered Blues.  

For me Owens is shading it at the moment but we need to see how George gets on this Saturday.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by majesticimperialman on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 6:19 pm

A cracking game today, thought the Lions was going to win when they went in front on 72 minutes. but what a come back from the blues, great off load from sonny bill williams and a great try from west.

Some very good performances from the Lions Itoje, Laws, Stander, Haskell, Owens, Cole., Webb. all had a good game must be line for a test starter position. Think Noel, Daily, Sexton, had good game, but was poor by their own standards

1 game apiece so far, lets hope the Lions do not lose any more games.

Did Biggar go off for an HIA?

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by eirebilly on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 6:30 pm

AB team in 1978

B. R. Johnstone, J. E. Black, G. A. Knight, F. J. Oliver, A. M. Haden, W. G. Graham, G. N. K. Mourie, A. A. McGregor, M. W. Donaldson, E. J. Dunn, B. G. Williams, J. L. Jaffray, B. J. Robertson, S. S. Wilson, B. J. McKechnie
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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by Scottrf on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 6:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just watching the match now. Nowell and halfpenny were shown up for pace on that first try.  How did we butcher that attempt by Payne? ! Good tackle but just shipped down the line by a succession of backs none of which committed any defender!
He had another chance with a long kick too.

First try pace lacking but the passing was exceptional.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by Exiledinborders on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 6:59 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Think Noel, Daily, Sexton, had good game, but was poor by their own standards
Daly was okay. Sexton was poor. Nowell was awful. To be fair to him he was up against the best player on the park and he was left exposed by his outside centre and full back but even so he had a mare.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 7:04 pm

I thought Halfpenny had a good game, but he got caught a bit flat footed in the try from West. Poor Jack Nowell got absolutely roasted, shame for him because he is a great player.

The Lions are full of great players and despite the loss, I can see us improving as time goes on.

We really need a better shape in attack.
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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by George Carlin on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 7:18 pm

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 7:21 pm

Early second half too much poor kicking from the half backs. Henshaw looking much better some good grubbers. And just got to williams brain fart.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 7:32 pm

Hmm. Really nice try. From blues. At this point I'm not as disappointed as reading the comments made me this morning.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 7:38 pm

Not sure that is bests fault but hard to tell. A timing issue from someone. It is a step on. Webb kicked poorly. We looked much better with ball in hand. Pray that Biggar and Sexton get their act together a little and it's ok.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 7:51 pm

Watched the botched lineout and the whole drill was wrong, and it didn't look well set up from the off. Whether Best threw too early or Marler lifted too late is hard to tell, but they all have to take collective blame.

What annoys me more is this should never have happened  - if PoC or Martin Johnson were on the pitch in their primes they would have got the pack together for a huddle to confirm exactly what they were going to do. Instead they amble up to the lineout and mess it up.

This is something Best can take blame for given how vastly experienced he is, particularly compared to other players on the pitch at the time.

Borthwick should be fuming about it.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by hugehandoff on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 7:56 pm

Not a good performance from the Lions and certainly disappointing in their lack of threat with the ball. Total contrast with the Blues. But the pack went well and almost ground out a victory. We are lacking top quality behind the scrum which is a worry. Where is that magic to unlock defences? A Jason Robinson, Shane Williams, Guscott, Scott Gibbs, Jonathan Davies (not the current one), BOD, Ieuen Evans etc. Not really quibbling re selection as I don't think anyone left behind would make a massive difference, but just shows that despite the overall improvement in Northern Hemisphere rugby we cannot match these guys in terms of ball handling skills.

But on a positive note it was another scratch Lions team, as it will be on Saturday, and it would be foolish to underestimate how challenging that is in the modern game. We will probably lose to the Crusaders, but I can still us winning the 1st test. After that it could get difficult. Gets needs to go with test combinations from now on and the dirt trackers will soon be identified and that is a true test of any tour.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by greenandpleasantland on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 7:59 pm

Don't forget last lineout in 2001 lions tour...Justin Harrison stole it from MJ.
The Lions need to be much more positive...look to run at gaps not men!
I still think they are adjusting to one another and the unfamiliarity is hurting them.
However the Kiwis just produce an endless stream of people who play and understand rugby in a way few others do.
Let's not panic and see what happens on Saturday

While im at it..well played Blues

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by George Carlin on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 8:17 pm

hugehandoff wrote:Not a good performance from the Lions and certainly disappointing in their lack of threat with the ball. Total contrast with the Blues. But the pack went well and almost ground out a victory. We are lacking top quality behind the scrum which is a worry. Where is that magic to unlock defences? A Jason Robinson, Shane Williams, Guscott, Scott Gibbs, Jonathan Davies (not the current one), BOD, Ieuen Evans etc. Not really quibbling re selection as I don't think anyone left behind would make a massive difference, but just shows that despite the overall improvement in Northern Hemisphere rugby we cannot match these guys in terms of ball handling skills.
Hogg, Williams, Seymour and North can match the speed of execution - we just need to hit our straps with a decent forward platform.
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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by Scottrf on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 9:00 pm

Not sure I agree, we haven't even seen Barrett, NMS, Dagg, the Smiths, ALB, Crotty and our handling is looking pedestrian and inaccurate.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 07 Jun 2017, 10:42 pm

eirebilly wrote:AB team in 1978

B. R. Johnstone, J. E. Black, G. A. Knight, F. J. Oliver, A. M. Haden, W. G. Graham, G. N. K. Mourie, A. A. McGregor, M. W. Donaldson, E. J. Dunn, B. G. Williams, J. L. Jaffray, B. J. Robertson, S. S. Wilson, B. J. McKechnie

Thanks for posting that EB.
Not quite as I was told but Black, Graham, McGregor, Dunn and Jaffray (only five rather than six) didn't start any of the four Tests on that tour, so it's arguable whether that team could be classed as a full Test team.
Anyway I won't argue and just admit I was wrong! Wink

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by R!skysports on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 7:19 am

Right finally watched this - even thought I know the score.

A few things that I noticed - some of which is similar to above

Pack -

Good - was good set piece and seemed up for it. Got in their faces and made a lot of carries.
Created fast ball
Lawes, Tupiric had good games.

Not so good - even with all the carries and ball, still did not look much like breaking down the deference - just play after play running into contact

Running into contact - there was a huge difference in the teams and one of the most worrying for me. Our game plan seems to be run into players, set up ruck, recycle repeat. (this is a very NH style) - but this means we always commit 3 or 4 players to the ruck, even when they commit no-one. I got fed up watching our players jog over to join the side of the ruck as blockers - even when they had not players competing - zero off load game from us

Backs - not as bad as I thought from the comments.
Good - defense was starting to get there. not too many knock ons.
Bad - toothless in attack. Williams and a ball in the air are a dangerous combination. Nowell - shocking
Kick, Kick, Kick, Kick, Kick, Kick - yawn

Also bad - stupid pentalties. Itoji is (IMO) starting to get a reputation for silly penalties and I think the shine of his greatness is slipping. Hype is certainly way ahead of current ability (He is still good though)

Lots to work on, but certainly not the end of the lions. A lot of the faults will be from not playing together before and will improve. Game play needs tweaked to be less formal and ruck

Saturday will be tough

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 8:19 am

eirebilly wrote:AB team in 1978

B. R. Johnstone, J. E. Black, G. A. Knight, F. J. Oliver, A. M. Haden, W. G. Graham, G. N. K. Mourie, A. A. McGregor, M. W. Donaldson, E. J. Dunn, B. G. Williams, J. L. Jaffray, B. J. Robertson, S. S. Wilson, B. J. McKechnie
That's a quality side. McKechnie never started a test - though he did win a test off the bench vs Wales that tour. And 3 years later he faced the underarm ball https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKNQ-crIr50
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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 9:05 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Watched the botched lineout and the whole drill was wrong, and it didn't look well set up from the off. Whether Best threw too early or Marler lifted too late is hard to tell, but they all have to take collective blame.

What annoys me more is this should never have happened  - if PoC or Martin Johnson were on the pitch  in their primes they would have got the pack together for a huddle to confirm exactly what they were going to do. Instead they amble up to the lineout and mess it up.

This is something Best can take blame for given how vastly experienced he is, particularly compared to other players on the pitch at the time.

Borthwick should be fuming about it.

Ben Kay reviews this lineout in the Times today. With this summary:

1) Itoje calls the lineout to himself, aiming to repeat the Stander try.
2) The call is an "arrive and throw", ie Itoje stands out, walks in and is immediately lifted to take the throw.
3) However Best, who has been drying the ball is not ready.
4) Thus the coached plan is to switch to a timing based on the thrower.
5) Previous throws like this see the hooker pull the ball back, pause, then throw. However this time the ball is thrown immediately.
6) this means the jumper (and to a lesser degree lifter, as he reacts to teh jumper) are not ready and go up too late.


All told a complete pigs ear, with Itoje and Best (and Borthwick perhaps) both at fault.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by SamTheQuin on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 10:25 am

When teams are thrown together so last minute and go straight into games, maybe Gatland has made a mistake in not picking Hartley who for me massively lacks around the park but has a very good lineout throw and strong in the scrum. All the others are 10x better in the loose, but if we aren't getting good ball at the lineout then it doesnt really matter overly.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 10:42 am

Best throwing a shocker at the lineout is hardly a surprise. If he manages to fall apart with jumpers he knows, he's obviously going to worse with a new set-up.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by Cyril on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 10:48 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Best throwing a shocker at the lineout is hardly a surprise. If he manages to fall apart with jumpers he knows, he's obviously going to worse with a new set-up.
It's a shame for Best, because he could be a really good hooker. The problem is that he can't be relied upon for one of his key jobs. It just happens too often.

I was impressed by Owens and can see him starting the tests now that we know he's fit. George to offer a big impact from the bench.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 10:54 am

Best is fantastic around the park but always has the ability to have a bit of a mare with his throwing, a bit like a better version of Tom Youngs.

I can't see George starting with his lack of starting experience so it certainly does look Owens by default. Hartley should have toured really, he's got excellent basics which is what you need.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by beshocked on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 10:54 am

Cyril wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Best throwing a shocker at the lineout is hardly a surprise. If he manages to fall apart with jumpers he knows, he's obviously going to worse with a new set-up.
It's a shame for Best, because he could be a really good hooker. The problem is that he can't be relied upon for one of his key jobs. It just happens too often.

I was impressed by Owens and can see him starting the tests now that we know he's fit. George to offer a big impact from the bench.

I think it depends who Gatland decides to start in the 2nd row. If he starts AWJ, makes sense to have Owens at hooker but if he starts Kruis, IMO it would be nonsensical to not partner George and Kruis.

I guess we'll see how the lineout goes vs Crusaders.


In a thrown together environment, it's inevitable that the lineout isn't going to necessarily function perfectly from the first/2nd game.



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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by munkian on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 10:56 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Best is fantastic around the park but always has the ability to have a bit of a mare with his throwing, a bit like a better version of Tom Youngs.

I can't see George starting with his lack of starting experience so it certainly does look Owens by default. Hartley should have toured really, he's got excellent basics which is what you need.

It's Owens by form and experience, doing him a disservice there.
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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by beshocked on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 11:00 am

Sgt Pooly you've already written off George before he's had a start. Shame on you.

If George plays poorly vs Crusaders then you can crow about how you were right but not yet.

A start at international level is long overdue.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by Scottrf on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 11:02 am

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly you've already written off George before he's had a start. Shame on you.

If George plays poorly vs Crusaders then you can crow about how you were right but not yet.

A start at international level is long overdue.

Wont be getting that yet. Still playing against a club team.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 11:13 am

The best issue if ben kay is right above wasn't really an issue. Bar that moment he has been the best hooker on tour in both loose and set piece. I say that as someone who wouldn't have chosen him to tour.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 11:16 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:The best issue if ben kay is right above wasn't really an issue. Bar that moment he has been the best hooker on tour in both loose and set piece. I say that as someone who wouldn't have chosen him to tour.

the hooker always get the blame, which often is not fair. There are even times when it is absolutely not their fault. This particular case was probably 60% system failure, 20% Itoje, 20% Best - all of which could be addressed with increased familiarity.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 11:24 am

The problem Best has is that line out throwing rightly or wrongly is a perceived weakness. I personally think he is a great player, however that fact remains the lineout went wrong in this particular case, and he was throwing the ball in at the time.

Hogg suffers from this stigma too. His defence was called into question again, against the Barbarians despite not missing a tackle. In the two 2 on ones he had to deal with he committed one defender and had confidence in the covering tackler (Seymour in one case and Faletau in the other) to make the tackle that he simply couldn't make. Despite this his defence was criticised by quite a few pundits as "still shakey".

Whilst Halfpenny (who I though played pretty well) was lauded to the rafters by the same pundits for an excellent defensive display, despite getting absolutely roasted by West for the match winning try.

The point I'm trying to make is some players on this tour have been tarred with a brush. Best for his throwing and Hogg for his defence and no matter what they do, people will criticise these aspects of their games, even though they did every thing right.
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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by Scottrf on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 11:30 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Whilst Halfpenny (who I though played pretty well) was lauded to the rafters by the same pundits for an excellent defensive display, despite getting absolutely roasted by West for the match winning try.
And faceplanting for the West try.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by lostinwales on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 11:35 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The problem Best has is that line out throwing rightly or wrongly is a perceived weakness. I personally think he is a great player, however that fact remains the lineout went wrong in this particular case, and he was throwing the ball in at the time.

Hogg suffers from this stigma too. His defence was called into question again, against the Barbarians despite not missing a tackle. In the two 2 on ones he had to deal with he committed one defender and had confidence in the covering tackler (Seymour in one case and Faletau in the other) to make the tackle that he simply couldn't make. Despite this his defence was criticised by quite a few pundits as "still shakey".

Whilst Halfpenny (who I though played pretty well) was lauded to the rafters by the same pundits for an excellent defensive display, despite getting absolutely roasted by West for the match winning try.

The point I'm trying to make is some players on this tour have been tarred with a brush. Best for his throwing and Hogg for his defence and no matter what they do, people will criticise these aspects of their games, even though they did every thing right.

People also have long memories. Last Lions tour the most reliable thrower of the three hookers was Tom Youngs - which says it all really. Very common to suffer from 'confirmation bias'.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by beshocked on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 11:41 am

Scottrf wrote:
beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly you've already written off George before he's had a start. Shame on you.

If George plays poorly vs Crusaders then you can crow about how you were right but not yet.

A start at international level is long overdue.

Wont be getting that yet. Still playing against a club team.

Still doesn't mean that what I said is incorrect.

Ruggerradge you are right. It's a perceived weakness. Lineout mistakes are some of the most visible, more so than a knock on or missed tackle by a forward for example.

Sometimes difficulty aren't taken into account when it comes to missed kicks or lineouts.

This article is interesting.

http://www.andymcgeady.com/lineoutmaths/

Also Ireland have a very high % at lineout..... but the article suggests that NZ is superior - look at the % of throws to the middle and back plus the higher amount of steals.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 11:42 am

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The problem Best has is that line out throwing rightly or wrongly is a perceived weakness. I personally think he is a great player, however that fact remains the lineout went wrong in this particular case, and he was throwing the ball in at the time.

Hogg suffers from this stigma too. His defence was called into question again, against the Barbarians despite not missing a tackle. In the two 2 on ones he had to deal with he committed one defender and had confidence in the covering tackler (Seymour in one case and Faletau in the other) to make the tackle that he simply couldn't make. Despite this his defence was criticised by quite a few pundits as "still shakey".

Whilst Halfpenny (who I though played pretty well) was lauded to the rafters by the same pundits for an excellent defensive display, despite getting absolutely roasted by West for the match winning try.

The point I'm trying to make is some players on this tour have been tarred with a brush. Best for his throwing and Hogg for his defence and no matter what they do, people will criticise these aspects of their games, even though they did every thing right.

I watched the lineout again. Only Marler is actually lifting whereas Sinkler was out of sync and arrived late to lift so itoje didnt get up in time. The throw itself was straight and on the button. The thrower nearly always gets the blame but a bit like the Lions as a whole they seem to be completely of key.

Choose to blame whoever you wish but if the systems arent working properly this to me is a coaching issue. If we want to beat the ABs everything must work like clockwork and much better drilled.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 11:45 am

GunsGermsV2 wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:The problem Best has is that line out throwing rightly or wrongly is a perceived weakness. I personally think he is a great player, however that fact remains the lineout went wrong in this particular case, and he was throwing the ball in at the time.

Hogg suffers from this stigma too. His defence was called into question again, against the Barbarians despite not missing a tackle. In the two 2 on ones he had to deal with he committed one defender and had confidence in the covering tackler (Seymour in one case and Faletau in the other) to make the tackle that he simply couldn't make. Despite this his defence was criticised by quite a few pundits as "still shakey".

Whilst Halfpenny (who I though played pretty well) was lauded to the rafters by the same pundits for an excellent defensive display, despite getting absolutely roasted by West for the match winning try.

The point I'm trying to make is some players on this tour have been tarred with a brush. Best for his throwing and Hogg for his defence and no matter what they do, people will criticise these aspects of their games, even though they did every thing right.

I watched the lineout again. Only Marler is actually lifting whereas Sinkler was out of sync and arrived late to lift so itoje didnt get up in time. The throw itself was straight and on the button. The thrower nearly always gets the blame but a bit like the Lions as a whole they seem to be completely of key.

Choose to blame whoever you wish but if the systems arent working properly this to me is a coaching issue. If we want to beat the ABs everything must work like clockwork and much better drilled.

I'm not blaming Best at all, having played rugby myself in the front row for a number of years I fully understand that the Hooker is brutally exposed for errors, even though it's not his fault.

I was merely commenting that he appears to be getting lambasted for the error that was not entirely of his making.
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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by beshocked on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 11:51 am

Gunsgerms v2 I feel the lineout is one area that should improve as the tour goes on as players become more familiar.

If the lineout is struggling by the time, that the Lions are facing NZ then yes I agree.

Players that play with each other week in week out like clubs will inevitably have better organisation and familiarity - it's why a Lions tour is tough despite pooling resources together.

It's also why I prefer bringing in familiar combinations/partnerships.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 11:57 am

I think that was a game the Lions should have won but at least they played better than against the BaBas. maybe it was a good idea to playe the super rugby teams. At least they will have the right level of prep. I almost feel sorry for Gatland. He has a tough task.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by funnyExiledScot on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 1:22 pm

I watched the game last night, and I must say I didn't think the Lions were that bad overall.

I thought Nowell struggled more for positioning than just pace (as the media are suggesting), and I think it was as much to do with the defensive system than anything else. He seemed to be told to come in to try and block the final pass, but the Blues' passing did for him and then the blast of pace from Ioane finished him off. I don't think the system did him many favours.

Itoje and Lawes showed up well. It's last chance saloon for AWJ on Saturday in my view, as the three English locks have all turned up. Stander put in a strong carrying shift at 8 and Tipuric was quietly effective. It'll be very interesting to see how SOB goes on Saturday.

In the backs I thought Henshaw was ok (can't help being outshone by SBW) and Halfpenny was solid. Webb is streets better than Laidlaw as well.

I'm not disheartened. It's all about the Test series and getting things right on the day. I never expected the Lions to win all their warm-up games, although I am keen for them to at least win a few!

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by GunsGermsV2 on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 1:30 pm

I thought Nowell was excellent apart from the try which was probably again more a system failure than Nowells fault.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

Post by Scottrf on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 1:31 pm

GunsGermsV2 wrote:I thought Nowell was excellent apart from the try which was probably again more a system failure than Nowells fault.

Interesting. I didn't think he was great but also not as bad as people were saying. He did make a great try saving tackle and got involved well.

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Re: Blues v British & Irish Lions, 7 June

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