2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

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2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:53 pm

The draw for the Champions Cup (and Challenge) takes place this week.

Champions Cup Qualifiers:


Aviva Premiership: Wasps, Exeter Chiefs, Saracens, Leicester Tigers, Bath Rugby, Harlequins, Northampton Saints
Guinness PRO12: Munster Rugby, Leinster Rugby, Scarlets, Ospreys, Ulster Rugby, Glasgow Warriors, Benetton Rugby
TOP 14: La Rochelle, ASM Clermont Auvergne, Montpellier, RC Toulon, Castres Olympique, Racing 92



Seeding
The first activity is to create the seeding groups:

Group 1 - Champions (Exeter, Scarlet, Clermont)
Group 2 - Runners-up (Wasps, Munster, Toulon)
Group 3 - Highest placing team from losing semi finalists (Saracens, Leinster, La Rochelle)
Group 4 - Other losing Semi-finalist (Leicester, Ospreys, Racing)
Group 5 - 5th Ranked team from each League (Bath, Ulster, Montpelier)
Group 6 - The rest (Harlequins, Northampton, Glasgow, Treviso, Castres)


Creating the Tiers
The next activity is to create the 4 tiers of five teams each:

Tier 1: Group 1 plus 2 from Group 2
Tier 2: The remaining Group 2 team, all Group 3 teams and the Group 4 team from the same league as the Group 2 team in this Tier.
Tier 3: The remaining Group 4 teams and all Group 5 teams
Tier 4: Group 6


The Draw

Finally the draw is made, to meet the following principles:

  • Each pool will have at least one club from each of the three leagues.
  • Each of the five pools will have one club from each of the four tiers.
  • There will be no more than two clubs from the same league in a pool.
  • No pool will contain two PRO12 clubs from the same country.
  • Clubs from the same league will be kept apart until the allocation of the Tier 4 clubs.



There could again be some tasty pools.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:56 pm

Purley in terms of chance to qualify:

Worst pool for Leicester: Clermont, Munster, Leicester, Glasgow
Best Pool for Leicester: Scarlets, Leicester, Racing, Treviso
Most Interesting: Scarlets, La Rochelle, Leicester, Northampton

(I think each of those is possible)

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by marty2086 on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 4:59 pm

All very simple Shocked

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by Hazel Sapling on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 5:23 pm

Best case for Glasgow: Scarlets, La Rochelle, Bath/Leicester
Worst case:Clermont, Saracens, Montpellier

When Trevino drop out next year for likely Cardiff or Connacht, the competition is just going to be brutal

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 05 Jun 2017, 9:27 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:Best case for Glasgow: Scarlets, La Rochelle, Bath/Leicester
Worst case:Clermont, Saracens, Montpellier

When Trevino drop out next year for likely Cardiff or Connacht, the competition is just going to be brutal

The pool with two French clubs will include Castres, so you can only have Clermont or Montpelier, but not both.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by beshocked on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 8:43 am

I find it very strange that the winner of the Amlin Challenge Cup doesn't auto qualify for the Champions Cup and the winner of the Champions Cup isn't a top seed. Bit silly really.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by Scottrf on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 9:11 am

Sarries tier 2 Shocked

Would like Clermont or Montpellier for holiday potential.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by Cyril on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 9:21 am

beshocked wrote:I find it very strange that the winner of the Amlin Challenge Cup doesn't auto qualify for the Champions Cup and the winner of the Champions Cup isn't a top seed. Bit silly really.
From next season, the winner of the Challenge Cup will qualify for the Champions Cup and the play-offs will be scrapped.

I do wonder whether it would be better to have seedings settled by previous form in the cup competition itself as seeding by league position tends to ignore the relative strengths of the 3 leagues.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by beshocked on Tue 06 Jun 2017, 11:09 am

Cyril wrote:
beshocked wrote:I find it very strange that the winner of the Amlin Challenge Cup doesn't auto qualify for the Champions Cup and the winner of the Champions Cup isn't a top seed. Bit silly really.
From next season, the winner of the Challenge Cup will qualify for the Champions Cup and the play-offs will be scrapped.

I do wonder whether it would be better to have seedings settled by previous form in the cup competition itself as seeding by league position tends to ignore the relative strengths of the 3 leagues.

Bit late for Stade Francais though.

I do prefer seedings by previous form because though Exeter for example have been very strong domestically it seems odd to have them ranked highly in the Champions Cup where they haven't found it easy.

2 top seeds are teams that didn't make the 1/4 finals. Going out early obviously helps win the domestic league too.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by Scottrf on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 1:21 pm

Challenge Cup:

Pool 1: Newcastle, NG Dragons, Bordeaux, Enisei
Pool 2: Cardiff, Sale, Lyon, Toulouse
Pool 3: Gloucester, Pau, Zebre, Agen
Pool 4: Stade Francais, Edinburgh, London Irish, Krasny
Pool 5: Brive, Connacht, Worcester, Oyonnax

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by Scottrf on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 1:36 pm

Champions Cup:

Pool 1: Wasps, La Rochelle, Ulster, Harlequins.
Pool 2: Clermont, Saracens, Ospreys, Saints.
Pool 3: Exeter, Leinster, Montpellier, Glasgow.
Pool 4: Munster, Racing 92, Leicester, Castres.
Pool 5: Scarlets, Toulon, Bath, Benetton.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by Scottrf on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 1:46 pm

Easy group for Saints then Shocked

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 1:52 pm

La Rochelle best French location (alongside Biarritz)
London (sister-in-law for accommodation and friends to meet up with)
Coventry (dull city but never been to a match against Wasps)

happy days - probably make La Rochelle and Quins

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by Welly on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 2:10 pm

So Tigers would have played in the last 3 season (Including next season)
Munster - 6 times
Racing - 5 times

Give us someone else to play!!!!!!

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 2:12 pm

beshocked wrote:
Cyril wrote:
beshocked wrote:I find it very strange that the winner of the Amlin Challenge Cup doesn't auto qualify for the Champions Cup and the winner of the Champions Cup isn't a top seed. Bit silly really.
From next season, the winner of the Challenge Cup will qualify for the Champions Cup and the play-offs will be scrapped.

I do wonder whether it would be better to have seedings settled by previous form in the cup competition itself as seeding by league position tends to ignore the relative strengths of the 3 leagues.

Bit late for Stade Francais though.

I do prefer seedings by previous form because though Exeter for example have been very strong domestically it seems odd to have them ranked highly in the Champions Cup where they haven't found it easy.

2 top seeds are teams that didn't make the 1/4 finals. Going out early obviously helps win the domestic league too.

Pretty sure you moaned when the seedings were based on the last four years form in Euro comps.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by Scottrf on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 2:14 pm

Got Clermont-Ferrand confused with another Clermont, but this should be a great trip! And only have to beat 60-13 to be an improvement on my last Champions Cup away trip!

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 2:15 pm

Scottrf wrote:Champions Cup:

Pool 1: Wasps, La Rochelle, Ulster, Harlequins.
Pool 2: Clermont, Saracens, Ospreys, Saints.
Pool 3: Exeter, Leinster, Montpellier, Glasgow.
Pool 4: Munster, Racing 92, Leicester, Castres.
Pool 5: Scarlets, Toulon, Bath, Benetton.

Of the five top seeds Wasps probably have the easiest group, though Scarlets should be well positioned to provide Wales their first 1/4 finalist for a while.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 2:16 pm

Scottrf wrote:Got Clermont-Ferrand confused with another Clermont, but this should be a great trip! And only have to beat 60-13 to be an improvement on my last Champions Cup away trip!


??

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by Scottrf on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 2:17 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Got Clermont-Ferrand confused with another Clermont, but this should be a great trip! And only have to beat 60-13 to be an improvement on my last Champions Cup away trip!


??
Clermont-Herault in the South.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by beshocked on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 2:26 pm

Order of difficulty I'd say.

2
3
4
5
1

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by whocares on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 2:32 pm

Scottrf wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Got Clermont-Ferrand confused with another Clermont, but this should be a great trip! And only have to beat 60-13 to be an improvement on my last Champions Cup away trip!


??
Clermont-Herault in the South.

I think you mean Montpelier (as in Montpelier-Herault-Rugby )...

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by Scottrf on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 2:34 pm

whocares wrote:I think you mean Montpelier (as in Montpelier-Herault-Rugby )...
No. I just saw a Clermont when exploring the area.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by Welly on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 3:04 pm

Pool 3 could be really hard or pretty straight forward for Exe and Leinster.

Alot will depend how quickly Cotter and Rennie gel with the teams.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by beshocked on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 3:45 pm

Montpellier have made some very high profile signings.

With the stand out being Picamoles.

On paper their squad looks strong.

Exeter have struggled in Europe, I wouldn't say it's a guarantee they'll get out of their pool.


As difficult as Pool 2 is, I think Saints will be a weaker side without Picamoles obviously and will need to find reinforcements desperately. As for Clermont, they'll be tough of course but as things stand their new recruits don't make yet make me feel Clermont will be a bigger threat than this year.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by whocares on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 3:49 pm

At least Mourad wont complain this year... couldn't get any softer for Toulon.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by marty2086 on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 3:51 pm

Montpelliers signings next season are


Ruan Pienaar
Yacouba Camara
Julien Bardy
Enzo Sanga
Aaron Cruden
Kevin Kornath
Guillaume Galletier
Jan Serfontein
Louis Picamoles

Shocked

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by beshocked on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 4:12 pm

whocares wrote:At least Mourad wont complain this year... couldn't get any softer for Toulon.

Will Toulon see Scarlets as soft? Afterall they did lose 1 game vs them and Scarlets did win the Pro12.

Bath will be a bit of an unknown next season but should have a very strong backrow if all are fit.

I think there's potential to do well again.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 5:52 pm

beshocked wrote:Order of difficulty I'd say.

2
3
4
5
1

Really ?

Group 1 has the team that finished top of both the French and the English leagues

2
3
1
4
5

for me

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by yappysnap on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 5:59 pm

Not a bad pool for Quins, I don't expect we'll get out of it but a few home wins are doable.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by marty2086 on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 6:03 pm

La Rochelle I think may struggle next season, they had a whole different challenge in Europe last season with Treviso in their Challenge Cup Group and Bayonne who were awful last season and only won 6 league games and none in Europe

Harlequins and Ulster have a lot of unknown about them next season so could roll over or be a real challenge for Wasps

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 6:15 pm

If Ospreys form doesn't improve I can't see them winning a single match there - inexcusable when you consider some of the personnel available. Tandy must be staying put then...

Scarlets are on the up, Toulon on the down. Bath are crap and Bennetton are Italian. That is a winnable group for Scarlets.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 6:36 pm

Indeed Scarlets have a great chance.

My reason for putting 4 and 5 last are simple

Italians equally weakest group unless the other 3 teams are 3 of the best 6 or 7 in Europe - not true here

As for group 4 Castres wont bother away from home, Leicester are nothing special and indeed a good case could be made for Castres and Racing be the weakest of the Top 14 side.
If I was Munster I would be absolutely delighted

1 and 3 are the hardest to call

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 6:39 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Scarlets are on the up, Toulon on the down. Bath are crap and Bennetton are Italian. That is a winnable group for Scarlets.

Depends how bad the injuries are for Bath. On paper you'd say that they have a very good team. Who the exception of the front row which is still solid.

Auterac, Walker, Thomas
Attwood, Charteris
Garvey, Falatau, Louw
Kahn, Burns
Tapuai, Joseph
Banahan, Watson, Rokoduguni

They just need to keep them all fit and get some momentum.

La Rochelle is a great rugby city. Their rugby team is the only team as far as the locals are concerned. Went there a few years back when they were still small time and it's a lovely city. Outside of the harbour area you'll need to speak some French if you visit because the tourism they attract seems to be mainly national.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 6:41 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Indeed Scarlets have a great chance.

My reason for putting 4 and 5 last are simple

Italians equally weakest group unless the other 3 teams are 3 of the best 6 or 7 in Europe - not true here

As for group 4 Castres wont bother away from home, Leicester are nothing special and indeed a good case could be made for Castres and Racing be the weakest of the Top 14 side.
If I was Munster I would be absolutely delighted

1 and 3 are the hardest to call

Hopefully next season Tigers will have a healthier squad and be back with a coherent game plan. We beat Munster at Thomand Park the season before last. Looking forward to another game against the Munster men.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by mikey_dragon on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 7:09 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Scarlets are on the up, Toulon on the down. Bath are crap and Bennetton are Italian. That is a winnable group for Scarlets.

Depends how bad the injuries are for Bath. On paper you'd say that they have a very good team. Who the exception of the front row which is still solid.

Auterac, Walker, Thomas
Attwood, Charteris
Garvey, Falatau, Louw
Kahn, Burns
Tapuai, Joseph
Banahan, Watson, Rokoduguni

They just need to keep them all fit and get some momentum.

La Rochelle is a great rugby city. Their rugby team is the only team as far as the locals are concerned. Went there a few years back when they were still small time and it's a lovely city. Outside of the harbour area you'll need to speak some French if you visit because the tourism they attract seems to be mainly national.

Scarlets always struggle big time if they get injuries but Evans, Lee and Ball each have the summer off. They should return fit and raring to go. The lack of signings should be a concern; their academy prospects have come in and done brilliantly but I was thinking they could do with a big name or someone experienced. McNicholl goes down and that back 3, also bereft of DTH and Williams looks very light again.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by yappysnap on Thu 08 Jun 2017, 8:11 pm

marty2086 wrote:La Rochelle I think may struggle next season, they had a whole different challenge in Europe last season with Treviso in their Challenge Cup Group and Bayonne who were awful last season and only won 6 league games and none in Europe

Harlequins and Ulster have a lot of unknown about them next season so could roll over or be a real challenge for Wasps

I'm expecting Ulster to be too good for us tbh, La Rochelle and Wasps are both 50/50. I have an incling Wasps are going to be a bit crapper next season.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by beshocked on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 11:17 am

Geoff I can see your point of view. I just don't think La Rochelle and Wasps are the best despite topping the tables.

Wasps IMO are the 3rd best English side in the competition, La Rochelle 4th IMO (I think Montpellier will be stronger).

You are right that Benetton perhaps drags down Pool 5's competitiveness but I think Bath,Scarlets and Toulon will be an interesting battle.


Pool 1 and Pool 4 are the 2 which lack a champion.

Of course there's plenty of unknown quantities.


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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by marty2086 on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 11:44 am

yappysnap wrote:
marty2086 wrote:La Rochelle I think may struggle next season, they had a whole different challenge in Europe last season with Treviso in their Challenge Cup Group and Bayonne who were awful last season and only won 6 league games and none in Europe

Harlequins and Ulster have a lot of unknown about them next season so could roll over or be a real challenge for Wasps

I'm expecting Ulster to be too good for us tbh, La Rochelle and Wasps are both 50/50. I have an incling Wasps are going to be a bit crapper next season.

I'm hoping you are right, Quins are similar to Ulster I think. Got the quality but pulling all into a cohesive team is the problem at the minute.

Wasps are vulnerable at scrum time so if you can get the upper hand there its a strong platform and in Ashley Johnson they have a hooker who isn't great at lineout time which offers a window to get at them there when he comes on

Haven't seen much of La Rochelle this season but just think the extra attrition next season will tell for them, or hope it does anyway

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by wayne on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 5:42 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:If Ospreys form doesn't improve I can't see them winning a single match there - inexcusable when you consider some of the personnel available. Tandy must be staying put then...

Scarlets are on the up, Toulon on the down. Bath are crap and Bennetton are Italian. That is a winnable group for Scarlets.

Yes what you say about the Ospreys is probably correct Mikey, unless there is a change at Coaching level or/and there is an influx of about 3 or 4 higher class players, I would be surprised if we were to win more than 1 or 2 games in RCC1. If we have our first choice squad out for every game we could get up to 2 or 3 wins.

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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by Stone Motif on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 7:05 pm

wayne wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:If Ospreys form doesn't improve I can't see them winning a single match there - inexcusable when you consider some of the personnel available. Tandy must be staying put then...

Scarlets are on the up, Toulon on the down. Bath are crap and Bennetton are Italian. That is a winnable group for Scarlets.

Yes what you say about the Ospreys is probably correct Mikey, unless there is a change at Coaching level or/and there is an influx of about 3 or 4 higher class players, I would be surprised if we were to win more than 1 or 2 games in RCC1. If we have our first choice squad out for every game we could get up to 2 or 3 wins.

Laugh 2 or 3 wins? The only thing you'll be winning is the prize for most brutal man-shaming
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Re: 2017/18 Champions Cup Draw - Thursday 8th June 13:00

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 09 Jun 2017, 7:47 pm

wayne wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:If Ospreys form doesn't improve I can't see them winning a single match there - inexcusable when you consider some of the personnel available. Tandy must be staying put then...

Scarlets are on the up, Toulon on the down. Bath are crap and Bennetton are Italian. That is a winnable group for Scarlets.

Yes what you say about the Ospreys is probably correct Mikey, unless there is a change at Coaching level or/and there is an influx of about 3 or 4 higher class players, I would be surprised if we were to win more than 1 or 2 games in RCC1. If we have our first choice squad out for every game we could get up to 2 or 3 wins.

I agree with that Wayne, and actually I should have waited until the start of next season to make a prediction. We can't deny that a few of Ospreys frontline players seemed to have gone backwards; is that purple patch at the end of last season just a blip?

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